Unfair leadership at it's best! (favoritism)

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
cherzra
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Postby cherzra » Sun Dec 16, 2001 9:22 pm

note: this is not directed at anyone it's a general statement.

A tip...

NEVER, EVER complain to the leader about the split... it's a sure way to get yourself on the shit list. [b]Especially[b/] if you haven't been around very long.

The other day someone bitched at me when I gave a guildie the eldritch ring. He got the hand down, an elemental ring. A +30hp improvement over what he had. But he bitched at me nonetheless. It was his first run with me.

Yesterday we were zoning again, and I asked him to come. He asked me if I was bidding or handing out, and I said handing out. He didn't even bother to reply me after that. Guess what? He made my shit list, and he can go scew himself.

I actually liked him, and he plays a hard needed class, I would have given him his share of nice eq if he had just come one or two more runs. Now - funk him.

So some advice - shut up before you think you can change the way things happen. Some people have been coming to scorps and tf 8x and they haven't gotten their mask or eldritch yet. They are probably next on my list to get stuff. Hard to get primo eq items go to those who have been coming with me for months and who have proven themselves, not those on their first run. Bitching cause you aren't happy with the (quite nice items usually) handout means even less chance of getting something next time, if you're asked to come at all that is.
Zen
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Postby Zen » Sun Dec 16, 2001 10:01 pm

What gets me is when the winners bitch at you and the loosers understand why you did what you did etc. Fairs fair, but you have to be consistent etc. Myself, i have always thought that bidding amongst those who don't have an item was the most fair thing to do. Lately, I've been doing hand outs because winners are just as much a pain as loosers, and I'd rather take care of ppl who take care of me.

Suks

-Zaryn
Grintor
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Postby Grintor » Sun Dec 16, 2001 10:45 pm

woo!

someone else has kept my whining and bitching torch burning!


hey guys can i come back now or am i still outcasted from evils?
Ragorn
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Dec 17, 2001 2:48 am

If you're willing to commit to playing the game, knowing your class, and making friends, going with leaders who do handouts is the best way for you to get what you need.

If, on the other hand, you're a drifter, you float from group to group, you're a mediocre player, or you don't play very much, then bids are what you're looking for. Bids might let you get that eldritch or mask on the first run without having to commit your soul to doing 32 jot runs with the same leader before you get what you want.

- Ragorn
Gormal
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Postby Gormal » Mon Dec 17, 2001 4:01 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Frobakhal:
Oh and another thing. Why would I seriously care about a fish scale earring when I can cheese fireweeds...not that hard I've done it before...</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

did anyone else find this funny?

stop living in your glory days and deal.
Elseenas
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Postby Elseenas » Mon Dec 17, 2001 4:46 am

I haven't seen this much flaming since before the MUD opened and we had that Goodies vs Evils war.

Seriously people. The observations of a an old newbie who has been playing since pre-split in one form or another (which means little other than that I've seen a lot in that time):

1) I know Xser. While I don't always agree with his decisions I have never known him to go AFK when it counted. Thats just vicious libel [added: AFAIK, if anyone has evidence to the contrary I'll be happy to hear it].

2) Jaznolg was in the wrong on one and only one point that I can see (attitude aside, virtually all of us have that problem at some point or another): switching to handouts AFTER Xser won the bid.

3) Sticking up for your friends and or guildmates is fine in many circumstances, unless you don't know the facts of the situation or those facts reveal something that shouldn't have happened.

Here, something shouldn't have happened and it makes your entire guild look bad that a member did this and you support him. I don't care what policy who uses to hand out eq, but switching after a bid is won is bad form--particularly when the stated reasons don't make sense.

4) I fail to see how whether Xser can lead groups affects this discussion in the slightest.

5) Xser, you have taken this too far, but you know that already Image


------------------
Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning

[This message has been edited by Elseenas (edited 12-16-2001).]
Frobakhal
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Postby Frobakhal » Mon Dec 17, 2001 6:23 am

Yeah I realize now that the fireweed earring is on a mob, it didn't occur to me that change was put in. You know what I meant by it though...hope it was a good laugh. Image
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Postby Grintor » Mon Dec 17, 2001 6:51 am

all this talk here, and on other threads, has all pointed at people's attitudes in game, not so much faults about the game. this includes the naming stuff and such. lord knows after a few months back i let it all get to me and i started losing my temper and that's why i only put in a few hours a week at most, and that's mainly just talking to folks and stoning anyone who hangs out at dk fountain. however i log on today and i see something like the following and one really wonders if any of it will ever change.

ps. i have no idea who izid is, and if i offend you...er bummer bout that.

Welcome to Sojourn III Beta!

Archery Weapons Have Arrived! Check news for details.

Associations have been added!!

The help files will go in shortly, for now use the "assoc ?" command to see
the options, and petition if you have questions. Someone will add much more
detail about them here soon, but we wanted to get the code in asap. Enjoy!!


RTFN! Last Updated: 12/5/01
1

*** PRESS RETURN:

*** Welcome to Sojourn ***

0) Leave Faerun for a Time.
1) Enter the realms of Sojourn.
2) See who is currently playing.
3) Read the background story.
4) Change your password.
5) Enter your character description.
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Make your choice:
Retrieving rented items from storage...

Welcome to Sojourn MUD


The Reception of the Purple Rothe Inn
Exits: -U
Corpse of Zogur is lying here.
The receptionist stands here idly, eying you carefully.

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<> who odak
Sorry, but odak is not a valid option.

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The Purple Rothe Commons Room
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Corpse of the priest of Maanzecorian is lying here.
Some iron rations lies here.
A Zhentarim diplomat sits on a stool here, looking very uncomfortable.
An enigmatic traveler lurks in the shadows, observing the inn.
Viconia the innkeep wanders about the room here, serving drinks.

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Corpse of Ossis is lying here.
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A merchant from Tethyr strolls about fearfully, eyes downcast.

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A polished bone key lays upon the ground here.
[4] A polished adamantine signet ring lays here collecting dust.
A slender black adamantine key lays here.
Corpse of Serogg is lying here.
[2] Corpse of Bodag is lying here.
Corpse of a drunken drow is lying here.
Corpse of Tasser is lying here.
Corpse of a kobold slave is lying here.
Corpse of Ambar is lying here.
Corpse of Zhurga is lying here.
Corpse of Tasser is lying here.
Corpse of Targsk is lying here.
Corpse of Ssassin is lying here.
Corpse of Sizzraxxil is lying here.
[2] Corpse of Sizzax is lying here.
[2] Corpse of Shardanilee is lying here.
[2] Corpse of Semat is lying here.
Corpse of Rozar is lying here.
Corpse of Ossis is lying here.
Corpse of Odur is lying here.
Corpse of Ilinisah is lying here.
[2] Corpse of Grintor is lying here.
Corpse of Grankusaklar is lying here.
Corpse of Gog is lying here.
Corpse of Dungap is lying here.
[2] Corpse of Dabu is lying here.
A ravenar fountain gurgles softly here.
A large bulletin board is mounted here.
Amenha (RP) (Drow Elf) stands here.
A heavily tattooed duergar mercenary stands here, sizing you up.
Izid (RP) (Drow Elf) stands here.

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Listing of the Staff
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[ Co-Ord Admin ] Kiaransalee Drow Goddess of Undead and Vengeance

There are 1 visible staff member(s) on.

Listing of the Mortals!
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[50 Cle] Zipalodok (Duergar)
[50 Inv] Jaznolg -Destroyer of Worlds- Crimson Coalition (Drow Elf)
[42 Enc] Teyaha (Drow Elf) (RP)
[40 Enc] Izid Tre'Verien (Drow Elf) (RP)
[40 War] Thakx Mung Corpse (Troll)
[38 Psi] Axxsinlazzam <Ulitharid> Blood Raiders (Illithid)
[34 Sha] Turra <Reaper of Souls> Blood Raiders (inv) (Troll) (RP)
[30 Psi] Zazilinas (Illithid)
[27 War] Groguk (Troll) (RP)
[25 Cle] Amenha Karliik'Tagnik'zur (Drow Elf) (RP)
[25 Cle] Enata < Nocturnal Mistress > Blood Raiders (Drow Elf) (RP)
[24 War] Thurg (Troll)
[24 Cle] Disoputlip Bloodmace (Duergar)
[22 Sha] Babo (Orc)

[RETURN for more, q to quit]q
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Izid signs 'no.. no hits to the noggin or anything'

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You sign 'maybe the part of your brain that keeps you from being rude fell out'

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Izid signs 'that happened long ago'

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Izid signs 'ask anyone'

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bash

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<> You don't know how to bash.

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Albyzz signs 'we nominated you as leader Image'

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Amenha signs 'hrmph'

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Izid now follows Amenha.

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Mazok nogs, that's the ticket.

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A kuo-toan bounty hunter leaves east.

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Izid stares at the sky.

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Mazok says 'whos leadin?'

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Rugrn prowls west.

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Izid signs 'but not goodielike!'

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Amenha says 'I am, but the two of you are grouped.'

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Izid snickers softly.

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Amenha signs 'excellent!'

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Amenha hugs Izid.

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Mazok nogs, that's the ticket.

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Autosaving...
me

< 254h/254H 121v/121V >
<> You must sit down before meditating!

< 254h/254H 121v/121V >
<>
Baikalisan
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Postby Baikalisan » Mon Dec 17, 2001 6:56 am

aww man cant we all just get along?

Image
rylan
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Postby rylan » Mon Dec 17, 2001 1:03 pm

Someone tell me why I keep reading the posts in this thread?
Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Dec 17, 2001 2:54 pm

It's that whole "traffic accident" thing, Rylan. You don't want to, but you just can't stop yourself. The horror, the horror!
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Mon Dec 17, 2001 3:00 pm

waiting for dawn to break on a marble head, as it were =)
Taegost
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Postby Taegost » Mon Dec 17, 2001 8:03 pm

--From the Neutral Party (No pun intended)--

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Frobakhal:
I can't believe some of the crap I'm hearing from some people on here...This is isn't the same group of people I remember playing with. I don't see you going out of your way to help others out. I think this is starting to turn into a two sided issue here. People looking out for friends and just that. The ONLY reason I started this thread is because of an unjust action a particular person did and you can side with whoeever all you want. People who know me, KNOW I pull my weight for ALOT of people. If you think otherwise then you can go to hell. :P</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dude, deal with it and grow up


------------------
Taegost, The one and ONLY STUPER DRUID(tm)
Valke
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Postby Valke » Mon Dec 17, 2001 8:07 pm

Is this still a game? I you guys were me, you'd dress up like your character and go deal with each individual face to face.
Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Dec 17, 2001 8:36 pm

I'm all for that!!!!

Ashiwi digs around in her costume jewelry for the black skull earrings she used to wear back in the 80's.
Taegost
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Postby Taegost » Tue Dec 18, 2001 8:30 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Valke:
Is this still a game? I you guys were me, you'd dress up like your character and go deal with each individual face to face.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Blow a blood for Celerity... Oh look, Protean+Ambidexterity+Puissance...
ROAR!

------------------
Taegost, The one and ONLY STUPER DRUID(tm)
Jasix Prowlingwolf
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Postby Jasix Prowlingwolf » Sun Dec 23, 2001 9:31 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
<B>Jasix you have a serious problem. Every other post of yours is like this: 'fuck leaders. They cheat, they twink, they give eq to friends, leading takes no effort at ALL, they suck, I wont zone or follow anyone cause they are all assholes'

Tell me oh oracle, when was the last time you lead scorps/seers/clouds? Tell me oh great one, how many people are wearing eq because YOU got up and lead a zone instead of saying 'I'm bored someone lead something....'. What's that? Zero? Then shut up, you sound like a bitter old man.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes Cheesra I am a very very bitter old man, so bitter with what our beloved mud has become.

For starters You don't know me one little bit, my posting style is mostly a front for my own amusement. I get off making wankers like you post about what I think. That's the aim of the game isn't it? ATTENTION> Why do leaders lead, cause they WANT the attention,(how many of these so-called leaders will actually take a back seat and let someone else lead a zone without wanting to take over to make it go faster. Touk I have respect for cause he doesn't seem to have the "need to leeed" He's happy to sit back and just play and not be "the man". I bet none of you could go an entire zone following someone else without talking behind their back about how shitty they lead and how much better you could have done it.


I dont mud to be the best, I dont have a hope in being the best equipt nor do I really care to be. I just want what is needed to play my class to an acceptable standard and to do my job and be appreciated for my efforts. Same as most of the good people that play here. We just want to be appreciated not just used to feather everyone elses nest.

I don't dislike everyone, rofl far from it, just a select few that try to control this place and walk about like santa clause handing out the goodies to who they deem worthy.

As for me sitting about waiting for someone to lead a zone for me.. Rofl that's rich, you obviously don't know the first thing about me. I may send the odd tell but 9/10 times I will not bother going. Either someone I dont care to be around is leading or there are too many others I don't care to be around in the group. Do they care to be around me? *shrug* probably not, but believe it or not some do.

I've tried to lead some things, I usually get a bit of lag and get to frustrated that I am not moving fast enough so hand leading to soene i trust. More often then not the group is "taken over" by someone with a bigger mouth that just starts to call the shots. I'm not a great leader, hell i can bearly lead a group out of Waterdeep to the Turning Point to make fun of some stinky troll that can't roleplay for shit. Friends dont get preference at hand outs or bids, and I will more other then not give the best items to people I don't care much for if they need it the most. I kwow what it's like to be ina group with leaders I not know well so I try and treat poepel in my groups like I would like to be treated. I may burn someone with a group-say but they probably been on my nerves for some time.

I dont dislike all leaders, but the list of those I do trust and would follow is very small, why follow to be disappointed. I fight for my right to take home a reward or at least a fair chance to obtain that reward.

I would rather lead a small band of genuine friends and get nothing then put up with people I really dont care for just to get a cheap little trinket.

*If your a leader that can't hand the best item to the lowest player in your group that contributed as much as anyone else then don't ask me to group! I don't want your charity and I don't need your company!*

There are plenty of lvl 30 poeple about with more balls and honour then half the high lvl wannabe copycats. BE ORIGINAL, this place has turned into a flock of no brain sheep!

Jasix "tired of all the bullshit" Prowlingwolf
Todrael
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Postby Todrael » Sun Dec 23, 2001 7:14 pm

Is it me, or did you just say that you think yourself the smallest player in the group, and therefore you should get the best item? *ponder* Because that's what I got out of your emphasized paragraph. You don't want any improvements unless it's the absolute best you could get from the zone. Correct me if I'm wrong.

-Todrael
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Postby Jurdex » Sun Dec 23, 2001 8:45 pm

Okay. I gotta respond. I can't pass it up.

Jasix, the only bullshit around here is your posts about leaders, splits and eq.

You don't have to like Cherzra. That's fine. Some do. Some don't. What you should do is respect Cherzra. Why? Because he's a pretty decent player. He leads zones. Plus, the guy helps newbies. What more do you want? Blood?

If you (meaning anyone) have NOT led a zone and dealt with the bullshit that comes with bids AND handouts, then shut the hell up. Image You don't know the grief people that lead go through. I've had people throw fits through either method. So why not give the eq to those that deserve it? If you go to the zone enough, you'll get your item. I get 100x less bitching doing handouts than I ever got doing bids. And believe it or not, from what I have seen, people are actually having more fun this way. And the thought that most leaders won't let others lead is a total crock. The leaders I know, usually rather not lead. They certainly don't lead for attention either. Usually it is because they are bored and they are the only one with enough gumption to do something about it.

Dornax
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Postby Ragorn » Sun Dec 23, 2001 9:32 pm

- You do handouts and get yelled at because the 39th level Cleric you've never heard of who you picked up at the last minute didn't get the mantle of knowledge

OR

- You do bids and the 50th level Invoker rolled himself his fifth eldritch

OR

- You do bids and lay down what people can and can't bid for. Then the 50 ranger with the illusionist alt is mad he can't bid on the dwarfhide gloves, the 50 invoker with the warrior alt is mad he can't bid on the Frostbite, and the cleric who didn't bring his rogue because you needed a cleric pissed everyone off by winning the valhalla mask

stfu.

- Ragorn
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Postby Grintor » Sun Dec 23, 2001 9:43 pm

Jasix yer my hero! how's locky!


everyone who's posted is wrong. please tell me i'm not the only one who see's this.

why are you all wrong?

because once again everyone is bitching about a problem, and proposing NO solutions.

here are my solutions:

1) group is just starting. not in zone yet. either a) leader announces to all in group how splitting will go at end or b) if your leader says nothing speak up before you go into the zone. never assume

2) keep your mouth shut and your fingers poised over the keyboard unless you are leading or a) have to sleep cause group taking too long b) have to log cause dog just shit in your slippers c) the wife/husband/partner threatens to withold sex if you dont log immediately. no one has anything relevent to say in a group unless it's 'i'll pull', 'i'll get him' or 'anyone seen my corpse?'. i dont give a rats ass how long you been here. Me, i've been her long enough and i've done all zones except tiamat many many times and i STILL keep my mouth shut about how to do a zone, always. i'll make f un of the participants or crack jokes at the leader's expense to keep it light, but that's about it.

3) eq splitting. realize that there is never enough to go around. realize that the evils with their handouts got gear much faster t han any of us who did bidding. i personally did jot 26 times before i seen anything better than a thrym token for my WARRIOR. that's f ucking life. if you dont agree with that assessment either a) learn to lead and claim gear you need at beginning (see number 1 above) or b) go play something else because you're making the game more of a chore for yourself than entertainment. i favor neither handout nor bid, but a reserved bidding s ystem which i've detailed before and that i KNOW works well and is very very fair.

so that said let this freakin thread die. go play dark age of camelot or the new everquest or go outside and let the sun shine on your pale skin. until the majority of the mud takes classes in people management and learns how to get the most out of the people around them without coming off demeaning or selfish these things will NEVER change.

'Nuff said.
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Postby Zrax » Sun Dec 23, 2001 10:09 pm

Handouts worked with little to no complaints amoungst evils untill all these goodies started playing evils.
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Postby moritheil » Sun Dec 23, 2001 10:46 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jasix Prowlingwolf:
<B> Yes Cheesra I am a very very bitter old man, so bitter with what our beloved mud has become.
Do they care to be around me? *shrug* probably not, but believe it or not some do.

I would rather lead a small band of genuine friends and get nothing then put up with people I really dont care for just to get a cheap little trinket.

*If your a leader that can't hand the best item to the lowest player in your group that contributed as much as anyone else then don't ask me to group! I don't want your charity and I don't need your company!*

There are plenty of lvl 30 poeple about with more balls and honour then half the high lvl wannabe copycats. BE ORIGINAL, this place has turned into a flock of no brain sheep!

Jasix "tired of all the bullshit" Prowlingwolf</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heh... Jasix has laid his finger on a burning issue. Simply put, let's step back a second. Is there one, best, truly greatest and most efficient way to do something? Do all other ways pale in the face of it, no matter how twinky the best way is? If so, we are all in Very Big Trouble.

I personally think the time to start leading is level 26.

I in no way think that a level 26 can lead Jot (although one can survive Jot, as Fordyce proved at L25). But really, what is Jot? Screw Jot. TF, IC, HP, BG can all be done with a group of midlevels, as long as you have sufficient people. Go out there and explore; buy some pets to sacrifice and learn a zone on your own. I think most people would be surprised at the details that great leaders often miss. You'd wonder at things that level 50's have learned from me :P

Yes, I occasionally fail and leave 12+ pcorpses behind. I used to freak out about this, particularly when I got bitched at by people who lost circles or skills. But in the long run, would you rather die in the 4th hour of mindless xp because your head hits the keyboard? Or would you rather die while living gloriously, flipping the bird to some level 50 mob even as the axe descends?
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Postby Gormal » Mon Dec 24, 2001 2:01 am

i proposed my solution.

Leaders have the choice and if you follow them you deal with that or leave. If you REALLy care then ask at the beginning. I'm more then willing to answer that question if someone asks before we start. dear god the whining here is making me dizzy.
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Postby Grintor » Mon Dec 24, 2001 3:42 am

um zrax, was that your solution?

please enough of the 'this used to work' bs, because sojourn 3 is unlike any other version of this game and that argument does not apply.

that's like me saying 'well bidding used to work till all these evils starting playing goodies'. give me a break.

there is a compromise between both systems, however changing habits here is about as easy as taking meat scraps from a three-day starved doberman.
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Postby Snizzle » Mon Dec 24, 2001 3:59 am

It not all that complicated. Gormal's attitude is right on.

I dont lead. I sure as hell appreciate those that do, and I always ask - where are we going and any other questions I think are necessary. Never have I got a slamming negative answer back. If you are patient enuff to lead, I guess u are patient enuff to answer 1-2 questions. Before the day is over, answering those pre-zone questions will be the easiest part of the trip.

Then again I dont expect too much out of ppl. I could care less if I get the uber item. Until very recently I was playing with stuff I bought for 500p in early mid-levels.

Sure I know that eq is important for survival - a must have.

I just had 4 corpses rot in WD. Not too thrilled about doing another 10 hours of chanter xp, but I dont expect a ress every time I die in a zone group either.


I'm just happy to be asked to go, happy to be taught something new. Spend some time with my friends, old and new.
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Postby Lyt » Mon Dec 24, 2001 6:15 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zrax:
Handouts worked with little to no complaints amoungst evils untill all these goodies started playing evils.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh PLEEEESE....you expect us to believe this? There are few players (to my knowledge) who now are evils this wipe that were die hard goodies the previous wipe. Reading through this thread it looks like a bunch of the evils are now complaining about the handout method they once championed. I have always favored the bidding method, but to each his own. If you don't like the method, dont follow the leader.

Lyt
Zrax
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Postby Zrax » Mon Dec 24, 2001 7:09 am

Lyt.
The only person I saw on this thread complain about handouts that was an evil was Frobakhal who used to be a goodie i believe, at least thats the impression i got. I Have no idea what your post is refering to Lyt can you back it up with anything? If you do I will say whoops i was wrong but I have yet to see anything to go against it.

Grintor... this thread is titled unfair leadership at its best.. not hey guys lets get together and find a happy medium. What solution are you looking for? The fact that this is even on the bbs is a joke. If a player can't handle in game differences like this in the game it is sad.
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Postby Kuurg » Mon Dec 24, 2001 7:57 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zrax:
<B>Lyt.
The only person I saw on this thread complain about handouts that was an evil was Frobakhal who used to be a goodie i believe, at least thats the impression i got. I Have no idea what your post is refering to Lyt can you back it up with anything? If you do I will say whoops i was wrong but I have yet to see anything to go against it.

Grintor... this thread is titled unfair leadership at its best.. not hey guys lets get together and find a happy medium. What solution are you looking for? The fact that this is even on the bbs is a joke. If a player can't handle in game differences like this in the game it is sad. </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Frob was evil, not good. Frob was not thinking when he started this thread. This thread should die.

------------------
·•Kuurg•·
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Postby Elseenas » Mon Dec 24, 2001 10:34 am

Zrax:

1) Frob was evil IIRC.

2) Frob wasn't complaining about handouts, he was complaining about one particular leader who switched from bids to handouts after the bid had already been rolled and decided.

------------------
Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
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Postby rylan » Mon Dec 24, 2001 4:44 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kuurg:
<B> ... This thread should die.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now thats the best post I've seen so far Image
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Postby Zrax » Mon Dec 24, 2001 6:07 pm

Elseenas

1. what does IIRC mean

2. if he was evil and not complaining about handouts that strengthens the point of my post even more, those were both concessions i no longer have to make to the "point" Lyt was trying to convey.
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Postby Zrax » Mon Dec 24, 2001 6:08 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by rylan:
<B> Now thats the best post I've seen so far Image

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you really beleived that Rylan you would not have posted to add to the thread.
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Postby rylan » Mon Dec 24, 2001 7:04 pm

argh.. damn you :P
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Postby Elseenas » Mon Dec 24, 2001 9:18 pm

>1. what does IIRC mean

If I Recall Correctly

>2. if he was evil and not complaining about
>handouts that strengthens the point of my
>post even more, those were both concessions

Image


------------------
Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning

[This message has been edited by Elseenas (edited 12-24-2001).]
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Postby Yayaril » Tue Dec 25, 2001 7:00 am

What's even funnier is when someone asks you to join their group to do something, you tell them what your concessions are: I.E. I'll assist you in exchange for a bid on the loot we find, they agree, and then in the end do handouts.

Yayaril
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Postby Jegzed » Tue Dec 25, 2001 4:52 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kuurg:
<B> Frob was evil, not good. Frob was not thinking when he started this thread. This thread should die.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He played a dorf on Basternae, so he's a goodie Image

/Jegzed -SUPERCOW- Denizens of Despair Image
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Postby moritheil » Tue Dec 25, 2001 8:14 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Yayaril:
<B>What's even funnier is when someone asks you to join their group to do something, you tell them what your concessions are: I.E. I'll assist you in exchange for a bid on the loot we find, they agree, and then in the end do handouts.

Yayaril</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*swat* You not talking about me, I take it, 'cause remember in the end we didn't get any eq that other day. Image

But did you remind leader of the deal? Or did they just revert to their habits at 4am?
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Postby Frobakhal » Wed Dec 26, 2001 1:10 am

[quote]Quote originally posted by Jegzed
He played a dorf on Basternae, so he's a goodie

Ack! jegzed how could you turn your back on me, it was all a plot I tell you! I wasn't really a goodie, I merely was a duergar in disguise as one.

When it comes to pk muds, I play on the loosing side for the challenge and I figured a weaker race would be fun, because all the eq evils got from the other goods would eventually fall into my hands. ::Cackles sadistically to himself with all Jegzed's belongings::


A corpse of a Minotaur is lying here.

>look in corpse

You see a corpse of Jegzed.
It has been mutilated!
The corpse contains:
A skull of Jegzed.
A leg of Jegzed.
A face of Jegzed.

>get skull Jegzed.

You get a skull of Jegzed from the corpse of a Minotaur.

>wear skull

You attach the skull of Jegzed onto your belt.


/Savak -=Incubus=- I N V I D I A

P.S.
You feel a sharp pain in your back!
You are almost slain by the force of someone's pierce!
You feel a sharp pain in your back!
You are dead! R.I.P!

Welcome to Basternae.

Enjoy!

[This message has been edited by Frobakhal (edited 12-25-2001).]
Jasix Prowlingwolf
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Postby Jasix Prowlingwolf » Thu Dec 27, 2001 8:17 am

*chuckle*

Pity I had a power black out mid way through my last post, I had some nice insults and face slapping issues to raise...

Here's something to mull over while your sitting around stroking your own egos tho.

How about you so-called leaders or zone bus drivers put your brain where your mouth is.

I propose that ANY leader that says we need more leaders and doesn't really like leading all the time but does it cause everyone *chuckle* wants you to lead cause they can't do anything without you... to make maps of zones and put up tips about how to lead a zone.

All you tools want to do is run a zone as fast as you can with little respect to half your group (ie casters). Then you have the hide to say "you done jot 50 times but you don't know your way around?"
Some of us are actually paying attention to what we are supposed to be doing (keeping our group alive) instead of trying to look around the zone so we can lead it next time.

I'm sure you have shown you best butt buddies how to lead things but what about the rest of the mud? I dont really expect ANY leader to help anyone else lead it but it would be a good gesture to the REST of the mud. I know none of you would teach me but how about the other 90% of the mud that you never take zoning so they may learn.....

If you can't teach others then stop whining about all the bitching and complains you have to put up with. You can't stop the complaints but you CAN teach others so you don't have to lead and put up with all the crap you hate.

Unless of course your ego doesn't permit you to follow or teach others...

I can sleep in the bed I made for myself can you?

Jasix "Vote 1 for a progressive MUD not a stale same ol' same ol' MUD" Prowlingwolf
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Postby Gormal » Thu Dec 27, 2001 9:01 am

i took rivan all over ice crag earlier today cause he wanted to learn vault. i helped ragorn with jot, selias with vault, kajib with spiderhaunt....dornax has helped me with zone questions on more then one occasion....touk helps all zone leaders...many darkstorm people have assisted us as well. What are you babbling about leaders not helping.

There are some people i wont help lead. If I think that someone still needs to learn their class alot better then theres no way im following them to almost anywhere. And if i had maps...i lead using my memory...i wouldnt give them out to those people.

I taught myself to lead almost all of what I know. I got help on alot of fights and some dirs often but ask those who followed me last wipe our first time in places...it wasnt pretty. Starting to be a leader is hard...you dont just jump into it if you never have. You have to work hard. You have to play your class well as well as know how all the other classes work and what they are capable of...what their limits are. plus deal with so much other stuff.

I'm still learning alot myself. I have never led scorps CC or lots of other random zones. For someone who doesn't like people handing out goodies you seem to think we should prance around handing out zone info just because people exist.

btw as to this not letting casters mem crap....omrec and arishae both were keeping whole groups spelled before globe time was reduced. baratos was too but he whined too much :P If you are having trouble keeping spells memmed I'm gonna suggest that you try a new strategy....if one person can handle globes hastes stones and still toss di/para/whatever when i ask then any other class can handle it.
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Postby Jurdex » Thu Dec 27, 2001 9:01 am

Leading is very simple if you get a good group of mudders together. If you have newer players, it gets more difficult, but is still very doable, you'll just need to overemphasize EVERYTHING. Give lots of directions, etc.

1) Start off with a *small* zone. Lead SG (underwater zone) and vault. These zones are both on prime and thus make for relatively easy CRs. When you go through these zones as a follower, pay attention as to what fights are where and how the leader approaches each fight. You should know your class well enough so that you figure out what everyone else is doing and why they are doing it. That is essential. Log the zone. Refer to the log for precise directions/map. If unsure of anything ask the leader after the zone or if he has a free moment, not during the zone.

2) Learn the other classes of the mud. Learn other people on the mud. Figure out ways to use the other classes of the mud to your advantage during zones, and which people are good followers and which aren't. If you have good people following you, they will cover for you when you make stupid mistakes (which every leader makes, even the most experienced, I know I still make them at times).

3) Once you've figured out the classes/people on the mud you'd like to group with and you have a solid foundation of the zone you want to do, you then form the group. Sometimes the right people won't be on, and you'll spend 2 hours forming a group that does nothing. It happens. When forming the group, I advise not to take any less than what established leaders use for a zone. Example: if established leader Bill brings 10 people to Vault, don't try it with 8. It is better to overkill a zone than spank on it. It will give you confidence.

4) Make sure you know which mobs you need what spells for or how to do certain fights, and if you forget, make certain you bring someone who knows. A good tip is that 9 times out of 10, two to three people in your group know the zone inside and out, so utilize their knowledge.

5) Know the zone well enough and do it often enough that you're able to recover from spanks. People go afk when they shouldn't, bahs mobs they aren't told to, and they area when its bad to. These things happen. Spanks happen. Feel acquainted with the zone enough to do the CR. People follow you and trut you. Their EQ and hard work is in your hands. Don't take that responsibility lightly. If you can't CR, never be too proud to ask for help.

Jasix, your own guild leader learned on his own, as has almost every leader on this mud.

I've offered assistance to numerous people in terms of quest spells, hints, tips, and whatever. Most people on the mud do this. So I renew my earlier statement of STFU because you really have no idea what you're talking about. Image

Dornax
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Postby Jethrus » Thu Dec 27, 2001 9:15 am

Ok, I have a few thoughts to add some of them are not completely related but here goes.

1) Frob's post was to address fairness, if you decide to bid something off it is wrong plain and simple to after bidding give it to someone else.... if you want to give it away do it in the beggining don't chode around it and say you are gonna bid if you are not, thats spineless crap you don't need to do, if you lead the zone you choose the split.

2) Eq is important to ppl no matter how you look at it. It should not be a priority over friendship, especially in a regular group. I have won a split and found someone needing something more than me and giving it to them. By the same token one day I log on and someone tells me "hey do you have a giantsbane". I respond, "no, I have a rockcrusher so I haven't bid on one". Other resonds, "oh we did jot and everyone had one, so here you go". To me a friend randomly giving me something fun means more than using the axe in jot or whatever.

3) *random* Ilshad- Mikar lead alot of spanks but we had a whole ton of fun doing stuff. We tried to assault jot one night with a 4 man group, we died a buttload but we got passed 2nd gate to the emissaries which was our objective, and to me that was an accomplishment, regardless of the 10+ deaths that happened along the way =). Do not take this as a flame or a need to attack Mikar's leading style. I am just pointing out that some of the most fun I had was dying in zones with him, and sometimes we even did zone without dying!

-Jethrus aka. Rolador
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Postby Corth » Thu Dec 27, 2001 12:03 pm

What dornax said

Corth
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Postby Jasix Prowlingwolf » Fri Dec 28, 2001 3:36 am

*chuckle*

Most of what you all said is true, you have all learned and taught *some* others.

I challenge each and every leader to teach one *different* person a zone each week. I dont mean vault, a newbie can lead vault with all the back seat drivers around. I'm talking brass, jot, crypts, roots, sg, tf, sf. Zones that the average player doesn't have the confidence to learn to lead in the dark.

Take the time to explain things and not just expect them to log it and know every direction you took as you speed you way through. If you wanna just rush through every time (cause people hate slow zoning) fine, but if you truely want others to learn to lead then take some time to explain stuff, don't assume everyone knows everything and dont belittle them when they do have the courage to say "hey i don't know what to do this fight"

I could probaly fumble my way around Jot for 6 months getting people spanked every 20 minutes as well. But who really wants to follow someone that gets spanked all the time trying to learn something... I sure as hell don't. I can easily tolerate a slow zone if I know someone is being taught it and I think most others would too. Cause believe it or not a LOT of the players on the mud would be very happy to have some new leaders to follow. Just cause they don't tell you they don't like the way you lead doesn't mean they all like to follow you....

if you can do a zone by memory then surely you could draw a quick map... But that would be doing too much to help......

Minthur got fame from his excellent maps of the realms, who wants to be the legend that gave the world the maps of the high lvl zones...

Unless Miax doesn't want the zone maps posted I challenge you to put your maps where your mouth is.

Jasix "wants to learn, but can't find a suitable mentor" Prowlingwolf
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Postby Jurdex » Fri Dec 28, 2001 4:37 am

Another challenge?

Jasix, no one is going to sit here and hold your hand through a zone. What the hell? You act like people owe you something. You act like leaders owe the rest of the mud something. They don't. The truth is that any leader who has the balls to do a zone has contributed more than any of your whiny rants on this bbs has. You ignored the fact that I answered your previous challenge. Walking someone through a zone isn't the best way to learn. I didn't know SF or TF or CC or whatever until I was actually inside the zone fighting and exploring. That is how it goes with most zones. To teach someone Jot would be to teach them astral and how to walk it, and trust me, some people just can't walk planes very well. Not to mention how people react to spanks. Some aren't cut out to lead.

I issue a challenge to you, though. STFU and lead a zone on this mud. I'll even walk you through it.

Dornax
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Postby Jasix Prowlingwolf » Fri Dec 28, 2001 6:50 am

*chuckle*

So when are these people you say you have taught going to lead a zone then? Or don't you LET them when your on-line?

Most of you leaders need to take a back seat once in a while. You might actually learn more then you think you teach.

Touk has this ability and is much more respect because of his ability to sit back and not try to take over. Every time I have lead anything some wannabee loud mouth or someone that thiks they can lead better has to try and wrestle control from me.... (ever happen to you?)

Make a map or slow the fuck down so maybe some of us can see enough to lead so we dont have to spend out days in the company of people we don't really care to be around.

Or are you afraid people like me will start leading and all the smaller up and coming players will see they can be treated better elsewhere... Wouldn't that be terrible, the mud actually run like it was when 90% of us were happy with the way it was here not just the top 10%...
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Postby Jasix Prowlingwolf » Fri Dec 28, 2001 6:57 am

*add more mindless ranting here*

[This message has been edited by Jasix Prowlingwolf (edited 12-28-2001).]
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Postby Jasix » Fri Dec 28, 2001 7:12 am

WHO of all the poeple you have taught to lead in the last few months are actually leading zones on a regular basis.. Regular doesn't mean one or two failures ever 6 weeks. What zones have you successfully taught and seen many others profit from???

I am willing to learn, is just a pity there are not many leaders left with the intergrity to teach the masses only the lapdogs.

To teach means nothing if the eductaion process never goes more then 1 deep..



[This message has been edited by Jasix (edited 12-28-2001).]

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