botting exp

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.

Should the rules on botting be reconsidered?

the rules on botting are perfect
20
41%
if youre not afk youre not botting
15
31%
doing exp is so mind numbing i dont do it, i play to zone, if i could bot exp id prolly roll a alt
4
8%
doesnt matter to me either way
1
2%
i exp at work and play when i got some free time at home, botting makes exp possible for me
0
No votes
i only log on to idle most of the time so id bot exp if i could but i cant so i just idle for chat
3
6%
i dont bot but i dont see anything wrong with others doing it
1
2%
i miss the old days when pretty much any trigger was considered a bot
3
6%
i dont like it but at this point id say anything that might help the pbase should be given a shot
2
4%
 
Total votes: 49
Turxx
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botting exp

Postby Turxx » Sat Jul 05, 2003 7:29 am

is botting exp good or bad?
ive seen people bot exp in all shapes and forms, from the person who cant focus their attention to the game because of rl and so makes an elaborate set of triggres so that their char can function without input from the player or anyone else, to the people who dont make triggers and just tag along as a leach and the way i used to like to bot, made a couple triggers so that a trusted driver could tell me when to go and whut to go on.
it got to a point that i had such a huge buffer into 50 it didnt matter if i did exp or not, i wasnt tanking exp for me, i was there for whoever was in the group and for evils as a whole
i was rarely afk, i just didnt feel like paying attention to the game, often times i was watching tv with fight spam in the corner of my eye, certain colors would call my attention
that way, i didnt need to know whut was going on, who was afk, who needed to mem, nothing, i choose a leader and made triggers so i could follow their orders quickly and without question
then one day i was talking to the gods about some side topic and they informed me that i was botting, i said im not afk im not botting, they said but you could go afk and your triggers would still work
now i just dont see a big deal there, maybe i might get up to fix something to eat or doze off with my keyboard in my lap, big deal, i was following someone i had chosen and trusted to keep everything under control, the exp goes on, people get the levels they need to take full advantage of whut the game has to offer, everybody wins
so i ask you, the playerbase, if you could bot would you? do you think botting is a good thing for the mud? people get to exp when they otherwise couldnt, more people log on more regularly because they know that someone will have exp going that they can join
it seems like more people would be on and that in turn would bring others to log on and the pbase would get a needed boost, one of the most important things i want in a mud is a good pbase, theres little point in logging on if there arent people enough to do things
you cant bot in a zone, too many variables. you can however do exp and skill prac very effectivly with a bot, most all of us, especially those of us who have mastered our chars only play to zone, dieing in a zone can make a person very angry, not only is there all that added time into the cr there is also all that time spent exping wasted
so i ask you, is botting good or bad?
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Postby Mitharx » Sat Jul 05, 2003 9:38 am

Turrxx and I have had full conversations while tanking XP for people that we didn't need. Xp for people means more higher level players which is good for the economy. The rules don't prevent what we have set up as far as I can tell. So, they're fine.
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Postby Iaiken Toransier » Sat Jul 05, 2003 12:57 pm

I had a fairly complex triggerset for Ike, autorescue, timers that would have them back on the ground before they were even standing, or charging !bash opponents and a status system that wieghed the probabilities of my dieing vs the mob for the purpose of fleeing if I wasn't paying attention. (ie my %hp left vs the mobs status and the time spent fighting.)

Now, I only did this when I was A. leading safe exp and not paying much attention, or B. off solo prac'ing skills. However, I was always at the keyboard, in and out of the window checking up on and directing Iaiken.

Essentially, Turxx has done the same, only he just handed off the direction to a person he could trust. ie Silsaterur says 'bash shevarash' (oops!!) By doing so, he made exp that much less a misery for the rest of us because we always had a tank we could count on.

So pretty much, if you REALLY want to take turxx up on this, you'd have to take up every person that has an autorescue set, an autobash timer, or any triggerset that allows them to to do ANYTHING while not at the kb.(and trust me, they save people the misery of A LOT of redundancies)

Triggers to me eliminate the need for me to have to type certain things 100's if not 1000's of times a night. (hehehe, gotta love the 100:1000 rule, comfort:reflex.)

Either way it really doesn't matter cuz I was told by turxx that he quit sojourn (lotta that goin round).
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Postby Sylvos » Sat Jul 05, 2003 3:05 pm

Well, the definition of a bot is if somebody else can control your character without you there. It is not if your character can take actions without you there. Hence, triggers that react to mud-input are not illegal. Triggers that react to other player input are. Especially triggers that allow one person to control another for a long period of time.

Is this so hard to understand? To deal with?

Discussion about the rules isn't bad. But I personally feel that the rules on botting are as clear and easy to cope with as multiplaying. I'm sorry if others don't feel the same way.

Sylvos Winteraven
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Postby Vahok » Sat Jul 05, 2003 3:29 pm

Nods, botting is illegal and should be. Even with triggers, we don't have to play attention 100% of the time as is. But having someone basically controlling your character is wrong period imo. What's the point of playing a game if you aren't actually playing it? Plus mass amounts of triggers and such tend to weaken a players skills. Haven't see all seen a warrior repeatedly attempt to bash a wraith in a zone?
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Postby Karikhan » Sat Jul 05, 2003 3:37 pm

I personally don't agree with botting ......

Exp is where you learn your character ... if you can set up a trigger set that is that extensive that you can be played without input from YOU then where is the fun?

I know of people who botted thru level 40+. then got zonable and couldnt handle the class ... and no I wont mention names, it's moot ...

Or how bout the lvl 40+ (insert classname) who cant walk between BG and DK?? unreal ...

I have been asked to lead lots of xp where the tank wasnt there, or the healer, the chanter, etc ... but I play to socialize .. if im the only one at keys, im not gonna have any fun ... so typically i say no i won't do that

Then there are the people who plevel to 50 in 3 or 4 pdays ... who wants that warrior in a zone??? (group-leader group-says Warrior bash mob x ... warrior group-says bash skill 30 ....)

If I am gonna roll a new character then im going to learn the class through and through and .. hell i dont wanna be known for how well I can bot but how well i play a class .....

Do I have issues with people that wil bot? Nope not really .. and I will group with the bot tanks and a driver ... I just wouldnt do it myself ...

Lemme insert this, tho ... that I did set up a similar trigger set for my warrior to run noobs thru DK to help them, so I too am not innocent ... so maybe my point is invalid too .. sigh ...
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Postby Dalar » Sat Jul 05, 2003 6:23 pm

i'm all for botting while exping. why? since soj3 has horrid exp tables and exp takes forever, nobody wants to exp. with the current pbase it's tough sometimes to find a good exp group. if you let people bot then people can actually get some exp done and zone.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Vahok » Sun Jul 06, 2003 12:40 am

Gaining exp is not a problem here. How many people can get a character to zonable level in about two days? In fact, botting hurts the mud in general. Older players either bot (experience with triggers in general, exp spot knowledge, friends they trust to control them) or just have someone power level them. But what of the true newbies? They don't have any of these advantages. Would a newbie learn anything from a robot touring them through DK? If botting is fine, what's next? Can I pay someone to level me a certain character to 50? Consider botting an unfair advantage...I personally don't have the option of running a robot at work. If someone doesn't like to exp...don't exp. Hang out, chat with old friends, whatever does it for you.

Do I think we should have our eyes glued to the screen all the time? No...but at least be awake or within 50 feet of the computer. It's not asking much really....
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Postby Vahok » Sun Jul 06, 2003 12:47 am

On a side note, I totally agree with Dalar in the fact that it is difficult to get an exp group with the current pbase. Most highers can gain exp solo better then with a group. Maybe drop the exp tables for the lower level (30 and under) to help ease newbie frustration and veteran boredom of exping...
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Postby Malia » Sun Jul 06, 2003 2:01 am

Well, I am for and agaisnt it. I see a real player deficiancy at high lvls, we get someone to 50, but they dont have a clue how to play thier character. I had a 50 cleric ask me whats a zone, bout fell out of my chair. I had another lvl 45 human warrior ask me where TP was. Botting exp will hurt the player base. Mindless exp isnt just mindless to new people it trains them in their characters. If i hadn't made mistakes in small exp groups i would be making zone mistakes that would spank the group. Or things like dont haste the tank if they are tanking a shielded mob, it makes thier scales/stone last 1/4 of the time. Its things like that that we learn while exping. We need stronger players and stronger players will make stronger leaders. I know exp is anoying after yer 3rd lvl 50.. but if you dont like it, dont do it. Become a leader.. take lvl 30s and do some smaller zones, teach them instead of powerlvling them. Make new friends instead of building up old friends. Without this our playerbase will get smaller and if it doesnt get smaller we get lvl 50 peeps asking us where TP is.

On a side note, i feel that if you are at the screen yer not botting, you might be doing all yer actions without typing (besides someone using triggers to control you, thats just wrong anyways) but if yer bashing is all triggerd controled, and yer assist is all trigger controld and yer at the keys then more power to ya.. only problem with this again is that people dont learn good habbits by this they learn bad habbits. We really need a stronger playerbase not just more players but better players. just my thoughts.

Malia -Keeper of the Dragon's Eye-
Last edited by Malia on Sun Jul 06, 2003 3:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby moritheil » Sun Jul 06, 2003 3:23 am

"If i hadn't made mistakes in small exp groups i would be making zone mistakes that would spank the group."


Malia sums it up.

Do you want all your groups to look like Morigroups in another 6 months? ;)
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Jul 06, 2003 3:39 am

If you are just sitting there watching television while scripts control your character, you can't be said to be playing the game. I understand the temptation, but think about it. Really.

Mudding is a social activity. If you aren't paying attention, even if you are at the keys, then how much socializing are you doing? Sure, you may not feel the need to talk to people if you already have a bunch of friends or you just don't really feel like there is much to talk about. But what about the new guys in your group soaking up some exp? Are they getting to know you? Forming friendships with this guy who s always tanking things for them? No, because he is just a bunch of scripts. Then, when the next game comes along, they have no reason to really stay here because they don't really know anyone.

The best friends I have on this mud I met while doing exp. But there are two kinds of exp groups. The boring ones where no one ever talks, and the fun ones where everyone is joking and laughing with each other. As boring as exp can be, I never get bored in that second kind of group... but scripting tanks will only give us the first.
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Postby Turxx » Sun Jul 06, 2003 6:41 am

how is an assist trigger different from one that sends you on a mob at command? youre still following the leader, youre still engaging a mob when they want you to, the only difference is tanks cant auto assist if they are spossa tank. one could find the loop hole in this logic by instead of using a command trigger relying on a good rescue trigger followed up by triggers made to look and bash the standing mob
power leveling a newbie to 50 isnt nessasarily doing him any favors but no matter how the rules work you cant change the way players will ultimatly do things, thus youre always gunna have that level 50 cleric who is the rl friend of some oldschooler getting pleveled up and still clueless on how the game or his char works
maybe it would be better if everyone got together to exp and engaged in happy go lucky conversation but no thats just not gunna be the way it is with some people
because thats the way you like something doesnt mean thats the way others like it and it doesnt mean one way is more right or better then the other
to each their own, the way i see it if youre not afk your not botting, just being lazy and unattentive
Last edited by Turxx on Sun Jul 06, 2003 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Nilan
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Postby Nilan » Sun Jul 06, 2003 6:59 am

Botting is illegal here

Enough allready

Just play the game and have fun already

Nilan
aka
Stabby
Turxx
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Postby Turxx » Sun Jul 06, 2003 7:10 am

you know i love you nilan, youre one of the coolest people i know, but i wonder, have you ever auto assisted exp?
its good to debate the way things work, nothing would ever change if everyone simply accepted the way things are as the only way things can be
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Postby Sarell » Sun Jul 06, 2003 7:27 am

You should not be able to bot to play Sojourn, botting undermines your skill development. However in the current context where you do ship for 30 levels not gaining any skills whatsoever just so you can play the 'real' game with your friends I can see that any reasonable person would rather bot. Especially if you already have several level 50 characters, leveling up wears thin.

Solution imho as stated trillions of times is to make trophy relevant, like seriously relevant. And lower exp tables dramatically. This would mean that exp is done by doing lots of different zones.
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Postby Nilan » Sun Jul 06, 2003 9:14 am

No i never auto assist....I sit at the key board i type assist and i play the game. I dont have Joe Ogre tell me "nilan assist Bozo Troll" and then have some trigger auto assist.

The rule on botting here is its illegal, Enough said.

These silly bbs posts are driving me batty. For gods sake play the game follow the rules and have fun.

How hard is it????

Nilan
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Jul 06, 2003 9:23 am

Maybe the problem is he no longer finds Sojourn fun, but feels like being there anyway. So he bots his way through the game, then tries to defend his actions even though they really don't benefit anyone.

If you'd rather be watching TV than mudding, go watch TV.

You can always chat with friends occasionally by logging on or just haunting the BBS...

But like I said, you aren't really doing anyone any favors by botting yourself like that. You are just being a mob who tanks for people. Might just as well allow bards to charm PC's and lead them around for tanks! Would get just as much social interaction out of it...
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Postby Drakkoth » Sun Jul 06, 2003 9:43 am

Lol, you tell 'em Stabby!

You know, I don't mean to get all misty on you, but BACK IN THE DAY (just before the wipe that turned whatever this mud was called before that turned into Sojourn 1), even simple triggers were very rare. There was no Zmud, and it wasn't that easy to install tintin or tinyfugue.

I hardly knew anyone that had even a simple trigger, and those that did were looked at like they were some kind of fucking unix expert. Someone tried to walk me through it once on my shell account, and I just couldn't grasp the concept of compiling shit.

Most of us did our entire Sojourn experience without triggers.

And I know sometimes hindsight tints everything with a rosy hue, but I really think it made for a better time. (While I'm at it, may I recommend ditching smoke and all the transportation spells (When's the last time a fully manned group of 40-50s rode a ferry? Or did a CR the hard way?), any zone that is primarily there for exp, and half the high level spells. But I digress.

I went to pk muds after Sojourn, and triggers had just become to pop up a little more when I quit one of them. I knew some day it would be a problem, but I never imagined it would come to this.

They have automappers and autowalkers and all sorts of other stuff now. That plus all the complicated custom scripts (which are really impressive) has completely bastardized this pasttime to the point of unplayability.

I tried to revisit one of the old pk muds recently and saw that they were completely helpless to these changes. It's a pity, but I guess it was inevitable and there's practically no way to prevent it.

A hard line needs to be drawn in the case of triggers/scripts or any other form of automation, and enforced.

It really is a slippery slope when you are justifying a few triggers, then semi-afk exp tanking.

'It doesn't benefit me,' 'I'm not _totally_ afk,' 'there's hardly any players,' and 'if I wasn't semi-afk scripting I'd be completely afk watching TV' are really piss poor excuses for engaging in something which is the most corosive element ever introduced to MUDs.

Do it like it was intended. Do it the hard way. If that's too much trouble for you, then question why you are here at all.
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Postby rylan » Sun Jul 06, 2003 3:39 pm

Personally I think you should be at the computer when doing exp. However I feel there is a 'fuzy' area where it is ok to have some triggers to a certain extent. For example, I don't have any problem with auto-assisting someone or autobashing while doing exp, and you're surfing the web with the mud text scrolling by in the background. Now when it comes to casters, thats a differant story.. because you pretty much have to be watching to play correctly without having full botting going on.
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Postby Auril » Sun Jul 06, 2003 3:56 pm

What do you do when you're not botting? You talk.

What keeps people coming back, why is Sojourn considered home to so many? The people.

What happens if no one talks to anyone else because they're just bots? People leave, new people don't bother coming back.

Why is our player base not as high as it once had been?


Besides, you can't bot RP very well. Thanks to those who have noticed when strange things happen around them. There will be many more chances to show your personalities.
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Postby Llaaldara » Sun Jul 06, 2003 4:06 pm

I think it sucks when an evil gets nabbed for botting ship exp. There are times when an evil will set their char to run in a bot situation to allow the exp group to continue on past the time the person would goto bed. (and therefor kill the exp group most of the time and ruin the fun for everyone)

It's an extremely nice gesture a person can do, BECAUSE it's illegal. They are willing to risk their character’s deletion with getting your character experience.

Ok, let’s say that again…

They are willing to risk their character’s deletion with getting your character experience.

:shock:
There is a lot to be said there. Can we SEE the Desperation in some players to have fun here? Desperate times are calling for desperate measures to enjoy the game. (Nilan dear, not everyone who plays here can have fun just RP’n on lesser mobs. Some folks want to do stuff. Real stuff.)

I don’t feel that EXP soaking from idling players, who ONLY follow the leader and do not attack or engage in any form of auto action, should not be considered botting. My reasoning is because the EXP gained is so minimal. You have to use your abilities and skills to really milk the exp in. Idling EXP also doesn’t improve your skills.

I personally am against people setting up bots like Turxx does in regards to myself, but I do see the need for it atm. I see the need every day I play. I’d like to see the punishments for botting relaxed. The death penalty for characters does nothing more then stop them from playing anymore. A little time in prison keeps people here. And this is Soj’s problem. Keeping people here. Reduce the punishments to something tolerable.

If you do the crime, you’re going to do the time. (Not, if you do the crime you’re going to be burned at the stake and never seen again.)

It would be great if there was a public prison you could go visit and make fun of people who got nailed for it. So you could really harass em for doing it in a playful manner. Also by making the prisons open to the public, we would be able to ensure that players aren’t idling thru their sentences.

Friendly Ridicule blows doors off character nuking and there for player loss to the game.

What about maybe forms of Community Service? :D

-LL
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Postby Ashiwi » Sun Jul 06, 2003 4:31 pm

Diminishing returns.

The less effort you have to put out for this game, the less satisfaction and enjoyment you will receive for it. It's a cycle Soj is already deeply caught up in, and as the staff works harder to make it easier on the players, the less the players will get out of the game.

I was going to stay out of this, but at some point you're going to have to sit back and look at the patterns which continue to occur as rules are relaxed and difficulty of achievement is decreased.
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Postby Shar » Sun Jul 06, 2003 6:02 pm

I suppose as an admin my pov is biased already, but I just have one question.

Since this is an RP mud (and we try to make it so) and, if you choose to be an RP character, how is botting role-playing? I fail to see how those two things can lend each other any sort of relation. Anyways, that is all I'll say (and no, I am not singleing anybody out here. It is a question made to invoke thought.)
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Postby Vahok » Sun Jul 06, 2003 6:17 pm

O.k. I think we can all agree on a couple points...

1. Rules against botting are clear...even if we don't agree with them.
2. Need of botting is because of helping out or lack of exping interest.
3. Botting is used for exping only it seems...
4. It seems the majority of people who bot are veterans to the game.

Just curious...after years of this rules, what makes us think we can bot now?
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Jul 06, 2003 10:42 pm

If you are going to be in a group where everyone is a bot, then why not just go play some single player Neverwinter Nights? The henchmen in that game are AI controlled, so it's basically the same thing with better graphics...

Seriously, try to answer that question. What does Sojourn offer that Neverwinter Nights does not?
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Postby Karikhan » Sun Jul 06, 2003 11:19 pm

Ya gotta stop and think why this comes up ...

Think about it guys ...


It falls with the changing of times ... hell who had TV's before remote controls or cable?? We are a society that wants things easier ... Botting makes it easier for the newer players ... But oldskoolers hate it ...

For those of us who were there back in the day .. we KNOW how things were ... hell i remember gettin poofed up to see Mystra for a botting accusation .... I had zero foods so I was happily using an alias to make food ... #AL cast 'create food';#wa 5000;cast 'create f' ... etc ... I think I came pretty close to gettin deleveled back then ..

For me it all goes back to the social aspect .. I mud cause I like people and want to talk to them ... xp used to be the vehicle where people made new friends and met potential zone group-mates .. you could test out the newer people and see how they'd react in situations ... I remember a time a few months ago where a certain troll (nope not Turxx) was widely KNOWN to be the afk tank ... went on for several days! and he was never caught ...

anyway imho the rules are there for a reason and no matter what the conseuences people will try to stretch the rules ...

see y'all

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Postby Areandon » Mon Jul 07, 2003 12:07 am

Looking at what is said the "pro-bot-people" basically are saying i want to use bots because xp-ing is boring. After levelling my chanter to 42 i must concur. I'm also getting bored with it. I can still enjoy myself with exploring, socializing with friends, or the occasional zone i get asked into.
All this does not get me to lvl 43 though.
However using a bot to get XP is not the solution. I think the solution is to make XP-ing more fun.

Let me put down 2 quotes:

Shar wrote:Since this is an RP mud (and we try to make it so) and, if you choose to be an RP character, how is botting role-playing?


Malia wrote:If i hadn't made mistakes in small exp groups i would be making zone mistakes that would spank the group.


My solution is based on these 2 demands:

XP-ing should promote RP
XP-ing should prepare for zoning
plus of course
XP-ing should be fun

Killing ferns over and over does not seem to qualify. Why not award XP through quests? Let me put this in an example.

I am a level 15 chanter and talk to Lord P. He mentions a messenger has been ambushed by orcs and was captured and taken to SS. He dispatches me and my group to save the messenger from SS. We go in kill the guards and bring him back to WD. As a reward we get some XP and a bit of money.

This example makes for great RP, it involves planning and tactics, forces people to explore, and it is way more fun than killing 300 wargs.

If you make these quests dependant on the level of the group it helps tone down plevelling too. And it sure helps fill the gap before characters are able to zone.

Of course this sort of thing requires quite a bit of work to build, coding being the least of it, but I guess awarding a small amount of XP for existing quests could be a start of it.

Just an idea, what do you think of it?
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Postby Malia » Mon Jul 07, 2003 1:12 am

hrmm i agree with the questing and roleplaying, i could also see it being abused rather harshly. should somehow make it so you dont get exp 2x for it or whatever.. but its a really good idea.. somthing to at least think about.
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Postby Nokie » Mon Jul 07, 2003 3:08 am

Auril wrote:Besides, you can't bot RP very well. Thanks to those who have noticed when strange things happen around them. There will be many more chances to show your personalities.


Botting RP is easy!

every (rand(120)) seconds, "say Nokie is okie!"|"bounce"|"wiggle me"
trigger for "lock|pick" "say With Nokie you need NO KEY!"

(I am, of course, joking)
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Postby Dlur » Mon Jul 07, 2003 3:49 am

Shar wrote:I suppose as an admin my pov is biased already, but I just have one question.

Since this is an RP mud (and we try to make it so) and, if you choose to be an RP character, how is botting role-playing? I fail to see how those two things can lend each other any sort of relation. Anyways, that is all I'll say (and no, I am not singleing anybody out here. It is a question made to invoke thought.)


Since when is Soj suddenly a RP MUD? Hurm, all this time I thought it was a DIKU based game. Silly me. Perhaps this is why the staff doesn't seem to understand Risk-vs-Reward very well, as on a true RP game like a MOO there is no risk or reward. I wasn't aware that Sojourn3 was suddenly a RP enforced MUD like Armageddon or some such. Oh well.
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Guest

Postby Guest » Mon Jul 07, 2003 6:13 am

I didn't see shar use the word enforced anywhere in there.
And yes it is a DIKU "based" game, one in which we encourage RP.
As or Risk vs Reward, the staff are always re-evaluating this aspect.

As for botting, the rules are there for reasons, not just whipped up to punish players capable of coding a bot.

What the game needs is more people, become part of the solution, invite friends to check it out. Not open season on botting.

And please please please keep in mind the "staff" are people just like you, and we do this for free. So just enjoy the game.

Remember this place is as much your home as it is ours (if not more so).
But someone has to be responsible for the rules that govern us all.
Lest we want an anarchy.
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Postby Nilan » Mon Jul 07, 2003 9:21 am

Amen!!!!

Enjoy the game and let this silly topic end

Nilan
aka
Stabby


P.s> oh my heh that kinda rhymed
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Postby Llaaldara » Mon Jul 07, 2003 10:00 am

Shar wrote:I suppose as an admin my pov is biased already, but I just have one question.

Since this is an RP mud (and we try to make it so) and, if you choose to be an RP character, how is botting role-playing? I fail to see how those two things can lend each other any sort of relation. Anyways, that is all I'll say (and no, I am not singleing anybody out here. It is a question made to invoke thought.)


Well I dunno about you, but I'm thinking the only way to reach 50th level is thru hack N slash killing. And the only way to be god quested, really quested for real rewards, is to be an established zoner. (Look at the ring bearers. Thank you drive thru) :roll:

I fail to see how those two facts have anything to do with RP. :shock:

Also thinking you can't setup mud/code-run quests that reward exp, because you can twink them. Once you knew them all, you could plevel yourself to 50th in a day, or an afternoon. I've seen and done this elsewhere. :(

I didn't say open season on botting, I emphasized the following:

RELAX THE PUNISHMENTS ON THE EXISTING RULES SO PEOPLE STOP LEAVING THE MUD.

These rules and punisments are from the Soj1/Toril era of 600+ players. Times have changed. So too should the rules. Rules from 10 years ago are from a different time. Let's see them updated to something more modern.

Lets prove to those old players who haven't played here in years that things have changed in 10 years when it comes to how they are going to be treated and how the place is run.

Let's not watch the player base continually diminish to the melody of "just have fun and enjoy".


Bite me cuz I give a dam. :D

-LL
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Postby Sarell » Mon Jul 07, 2003 2:54 pm

While you can repeatedly demand to people to play the game and have fun it is important to look at the aspects of the game that are fun. I am pretty sure you will find most people enjoy zoning, and dont enjoy exping. People dont want to bot through zones but they do want to bot through mindless pirate ship. Why we exp on ship is because exp is very time consunming and people want to get to the level where they can zone and enjoy the more fun side of mudding as fast as possible.

Exp especially sucks when you are alrady high level or are playing a high level alt that you made just so zone groups could be formed. The solution I see is to make trophy mean something and lower exp tables. This would mean you would get exp having fun and doing zones, which not only are more enjoyable but teach you more about the game. You get do bit of ship to start you off, learn what stone is etc. This would also mean tha tpeople who liek to zone every day would not find themselves back on ship so they dont lose res/scales etc/////

exp is not my idea of fun, i think having a bot to play a game for you is stupid, but I also dont particularly want to do ship for another char just so that we can form a zone group.
Guest

Postby Guest » Mon Jul 07, 2003 3:35 pm

Llaaldara wrote: I didn't say open season on botting, I emphasized the following:

RELAX THE PUNISHMENTS ON THE EXISTING RULES SO PEOPLE STOP LEAVING THE MUD.

These rules and punisments are from the Soj1/Toril era of 600+ players. Times have changed. So too should the rules. Rules from 10 years ago are from a different time. Let's see them updated to something more modern.

Lets prove to those old players who haven't played here in years that things have changed in 10 years when it comes to how they are going to be treated and how the place is run.

Let's not watch the player base continually diminish to the melody of "just have fun and enjoy".

Bite me cuz I give a dam. :D

-LL


Do you even know what the punishments we give out for botting these days are? Have you asked Turxx what happened to him? He still exists on the mud. He is still level 50. He still has his skills. He is still playing. He is still equipped. No, we do not delete out of hand anymore. No we don't take all your equip. No we don't take all your levels. No we don't siteban you.

I think we have deleted like less than 5-10 people this incarnation of S3, and most of those deleted were spamming/abusive level 1s. Raise any issue that you feel you must, but please know the facts about the "punishments on the existing rules" before you start posting about them. Or, you could always bot yourself, get caught, and test out how we handle ya. *wink*

Erevan
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Postby Dalar » Mon Jul 07, 2003 3:59 pm

Shar wrote:I suppose as an admin my pov is biased already, but I just have one question.

Since this is an RP mud (and we try to make it so) and, if you choose to be an RP character, how is botting role-playing? I fail to see how those two things can lend each other any sort of relation. Anyways, that is all I'll say (and no, I am not singleing anybody out here. It is a question made to invoke thought.)

if this is an rp mud, why does it take so many days of mindless xp to rp in a high end zone?
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Sarvis » Mon Jul 07, 2003 4:32 pm

Sarell wrote:While you can repeatedly demand to people to play the game and have fun it is important to look at the aspects of the game that are fun. I am pretty sure you will find most people enjoy zoning, and dont enjoy exping. People dont want to bot through zones but they do want to bot through mindless pirate ship. Why we exp on ship is because exp is very time consunming and people want to get to the level where they can zone and enjoy the more fun side of mudding as fast as possible.

Exp especially sucks when you are alrady high level or are playing a high level alt that you made just so zone groups could be formed. The solution I see is to make trophy mean something and lower exp tables. This would mean you would get exp having fun and doing zones, which not only are more enjoyable but teach you more about the game. You get do bit of ship to start you off, learn what stone is etc. This would also mean tha tpeople who liek to zone every day would not find themselves back on ship so they dont lose res/scales etc/////

exp is not my idea of fun, i think having a bot to play a game for you is stupid, but I also dont particularly want to do ship for another char just so that we can form a zone group.


Ok, you don't like exp. But that isn't true for everyone. I've played Sojourn for like 5 years without ever doing a single zone.

Think about it though. If the only thing you want to do is zone, why are you mudding? There are many other games out there where you can go through a challenging level and gain a reward without having to do exp.

Neverwinter Nights comes to mind again. Interesting that none of the pro-botting people have answered my question...


Dalar:

Since when do you RP in a zone? From what I hear everyone's energy and focus is just on staying alive and preventing spanks. But I do remember having a little RP event happen when I was exping with a group near SSC. I doubt many imms would interrupt a zone group with an RP quest, since they would already be pretty busy...



I'm going to ask my question again, and see if anyone can come up with an answer:

What does Sojourn offer that a single player game like Neverwinter Nights does not? Especially if people are turning their characters into AI controlled bots...
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Postby belleshel » Mon Jul 07, 2003 5:21 pm

Botting is bad, should never be allowed. But the exp system has got out of control, and the recent additions of those dreadful 'xp-only' zones, have only compounded the problem. Many of us have said for a long time, the system should be redone.

If I was Kia for just one day:

1) Turn the exp notch up a decent amount (more exp per mob generally) for zone mobs. But turn it down in safe xp-only zones.
2) Remove visable trophy.
3) Make trophy effect you far quicker (i.e. .5 you start to feel it).
4) Make trophy effect your exps far more (i.e. by the time you get something to 3 your only getting less than 10% of the exps you would get if this was your first kill.

The new xp zones have really ruined exping, with a good group, you could level in the same zone from 20-50 without having any big effect on exp rate, and the area's are almost completely safe. So why ever leave those few areas? Why actually learn the mud? (and yes I've seen some level 45's that didn't know where GN or BG was). Hell lower level folks might actually do some of the lower level zones that are currently ignored. Taking time to do citadel with some lower folks should be worth far more than the same time on pirate ship.

Also change the exp message you get, so when you've hit trophy you get progressively larger hints to move on, find some new challenges.

You receive your share of the experience, but its not as satisfying as it once was.

You receive your share of the experience, this is getting a bit old.

You receive your share of the experience, which isn't much.
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Postby belleshel » Mon Jul 07, 2003 5:32 pm

I still fondly remember the exping I did, most of my closer friendships here are with people I regularly exped with. While we were doing it we hated it, but we had some fun.

What does Sojourn offer that a single player game like Neverwinter Nights does not?

Nothing.

Neverwinter Nights is actually a multiplayer game, its a lot more fun in MP then SP. The reason I'm still at Sojourn is simple, enough. The People here. If my sojourn buds left to play a NWN world, I'd probably go as well.
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Postby Lazus » Mon Jul 07, 2003 5:34 pm

Dalar wrote:
Shar wrote:I suppose as an admin my pov is biased already, but I just have one question.

Since this is an RP mud (and we try to make it so) and, if you choose to be an RP character, how is botting role-playing? I fail to see how those two things can lend each other any sort of relation. Anyways, that is all I'll say (and no, I am not singleing anybody out here. It is a question made to invoke thought.)

if this is an rp mud, why does it take so many days of mindless xp to rp in a high end zone?


You know, RP doesn't have to be Saving maidens, killing orcs, and being a hero. Hell, if you really wanted, you could RP a chicken farmer. Surely you can RP a group that does a daily cleanse of the Spirit Raven Pirates.

Lazus
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Mon Jul 07, 2003 8:56 pm

Lazus wrote:
You know, RP doesn't have to be Saving maidens, killing orcs, and being a hero. Hell, if you really wanted, you could RP a chicken farmer. Surely you can RP a group that does a daily cleanse of the Spirit Raven Pirates.

Lazus


Not to nitpick. Well, ok, i'll nitpick. Please, by all means define how you would Rp a group of adventurers who seem to get a kick out of obliterating every high level mob on The Spirit Raven, including a trapped priestess of Selune, and a WD Captain. By all means, enlighten me, on that, and tie in that whole 'coming back to life" thing they do, (read: pop) every 15-20 minutes.

Sorry, that's just a load of crap. :P
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Jul 07, 2003 10:19 pm

belleshel wrote:I still fondly remember the exping I did, most of my closer friendships here are with people I regularly exped with. While we were doing it we hated it, but we had some fun.

What does Sojourn offer that a single player game like Neverwinter Nights does not?

Nothing.

Neverwinter Nights is actually a multiplayer game, its a lot more fun in MP then SP. The reason I'm still at Sojourn is simple, enough. The People here. If my sojourn buds left to play a NWN world, I'd probably go as well.


Yes and no. I've spent far too much time playing that game since I bought itin February, but still haven't touched multiplayer.

Although if you think about it, the MP aspect of NWN cuts even more into what sojourn is.
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Postby Llaaldara » Tue Jul 08, 2003 12:37 am

Ok I thought about it. Maybe recent punishments haven't been that severe. I mean I remember Miray getting deleted a couple of times, but that's cuz he kept multiplaying. Help files on several matters still state deletion as punishment. To anyone who used to play here that logs on now, it isn't going to look like much has changed.

-Insert comedic parody-

You have been found in violation of Sojourn3 Rule number 2! Which states: ROBOTS ARE NOT ALLOWED IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM.

Do you have anything to say to these charges against you?

*crickets chirping followed by a few auto trigger responses*

The evidence speaks for itself! For your inability to play your character, and instead use a robot to do so for you, we hereby sentence you to one week/day/month/wutever of continued inability to play your character!

(Player goes back to sleeping, playing PS2/Xbox, another mud, watching a football game, or whatever it was he/she was doing before when they weren’t playing their character.)

----
So um.. we punish people who aren’t playing their characters by making them not play their characters?:? When you take away an addicts addiction, they find a new drug don’t they? :(
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Postby Yarash » Tue Jul 08, 2003 5:21 am

This is another issue of low numbers in the evil pbase.

A Turxx bot would benefit lower level evils significantly. After playing a goodrace character, and then having made an evilrace character and levelling him thoroughly (to 48), I have consistently been frustrated playing an evil. I can wait hours for an enchanter to log in, then have him log out right as a cleric logs in, etc. I think botting is generally a bad thing, but while I'm waiting hours for other evils to log in, um...yea, I think I would choose to go exping with a bot if the option was available.

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Postby Sarell » Tue Jul 08, 2003 7:36 am

Easy solution, since we have differing viewpoints, some of us hate the current sojourn exp system, others see it as a glorious context in which to fulfil their roleplaying dreams. In future if I want to exp my low level chars should I just ask one of the level 50s who claim exp is engaging and enjoyable to exp them? .....ROFL...

Why am I mudding if I don't like exp? Please read my post before replying to it. Suggesting that players who are offering _feedback_ on what could make the game more interesting to them go play a different game really doesn't fit into the constructive discoure of the _feedback_ section of the bbs.

I still stand strongly by my statement that most players like zoning more than exping in spite of the apparent love for doing RP ship :P
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Jul 08, 2003 7:57 am

Sarell wrote:Easy solution, since we have differing viewpoints, some of us hate the current sojourn exp system, others see it as a glorious context in which to fulfil their roleplaying dreams. In future if I want to exp my low level chars should I just ask one of the level 50s who claim exp is engaging and enjoyable to exp them? .....ROFL...

Why am I mudding if I don't like exp? Please read my post before replying to it. Suggesting that players who are offering _feedback_ on what could make the game more interesting to them go play a different game really doesn't fit into the constructive discoure of the _feedback_ section of the bbs.

I still stand strongly by my statement that most players like zoning more than exping in spite of the apparent love for doing RP ship :P


You still haven't answered my question. I'm not telling you to go play NWN. I am asking you what a Sojourn filled with botting players offers that NWN does not.

In NWN you can download any number of modules ("zones") and play through them. If you need a second person in your group you can grab an AI controlled henchman ("bot".)

I find it amusing that you don't think you can get a lvl 50 to level you. What, you don't have any friends? I could probably get a char to 40 in a couple days if I asked some of the people I know to level me up. Of course, these are all people I met while doing exp...

Also, this isn't the Feedback forum. It's the general forum, where we can discuss and say pretty much whatever we want. ;)
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Postby Silsaterur » Tue Jul 08, 2003 11:44 am

Llaaldara wrote:Do you have anything to say to these charges against you?

*crickets chirping followed by a few auto trigger responses*

The evidence speaks for itself! For your inability to play your character, and instead use a robot to do so for you, we hereby sentence you to one week/day/month/wutever of continued inability to play your character!

(Player goes back to sleeping, playing PS2/Xbox, another mud, watching a football game, or whatever it was he/she was doing before when they weren’t playing their character.)

----
So um.. we punish people who aren’t playing their characters by making them not play their characters?:? When you take away an addicts addiction, they find a new drug don’t they? :(


BhAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Geee, that reminds me of a certain Turxx who shall go unnamed... *wink*

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Postby Sarell » Tue Jul 08, 2003 3:09 pm

Sarvis you still havn't read my first post it seems. I like doing zones not exp. I dont think botting is good. People don't bot in zones. People bot in exp cos exp most people don't like. NWN and sojourn are fairly different, It would be stupid for me to point out the differences.

Are you trying to make the point that the heart of sojourn lies in playing with real people so we shouldnt do anything with people botting? I believe this is a key element of the game, however the sojourn interface during exp is not my idea of a great social agenda. I think this game has a good balance of challenge and intrigue heightened by the realtime roleplaying aspect. I enjoy this in zones, but don't really want to chat to everyone I can exp with for hours, lots of hours, on end while the game takes 100% backseat; as exp holds no challenge whatsoever when you are leveling up a character for the 10th time.

SARVIS WROTE
"I find it amusing that you don't think you can get a lvl 50 to level you. What, you don't have any friends? I could probably get a char to 40 in a couple days if I asked some of the people I know to level me up."

I don't appreciate the personal jibe. Anyhow: Level 40 is not high enough level to zone, and as i said i like zoning not exping. The other point of my post was that no i don't want to spend several days exping a char just so we can form a zone group. If you love doing ship and chatting to your friends, having never done a zone and all, that is fine by me. Still, most people like doing zones and not exp. Perhaps exp on the ship is not everyones idea of a well structured social agenda?

Thanks for pointing out that this isn't the feedback forum.
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Jul 08, 2003 3:33 pm

Yes, Sarell, that is exactly the point I am trying to make. Ok, so maybe you don't like NWN that much. Maybe the expansion would be better (a much better campaign overall!) Or maybe some other game.

Basically what you are saying is that you enjoy going through challenging/intriguing areas. These things you can get in just about any video game. Dungeon Siege, Warcraft III, Zork, or even Quest for Glory.

Ahh... but what are none of those really giving you? The real time RP aspect... interesting. You can't RP with a henchman in NWN because he is an AI controlled script. Now, what is Turxx when he is watching TV with zmud in the background while he "plays?" Oh yeah, an AI controlled script.

I understand your point, but you are still missing mine. You like to RP while you zone, which is basically interaction with other players. I'm saying you can do that while exping, and in fact it is _necessary_ to do that while exping in order to get new players into the game. Newbies won't be zoning for a very long time, and if all their groups are simple exp bot groups they will never experience this aspect of the MUD. The aspect which you claim to like. Gone. Nonexistant.

Sorry about the personal jibe. It was a joke though, not a personal attack. I merely wanted to emphasize that anyone should be able to get to zoning level in a few days if they really want to.

The one thing I can't do? Solo exp. Can't stand it. I'll do it while trying to find a group, but if I don't suceed in like 20 minutes I usually just camp and go watch TV or something. Funny thing is, whenever I see a decked out alt they are leveling solo. Maybe that's why you all hate exp so much? I mean, if it's a choice between mindlessly soloing mobs and a completely dead silent exp group... Honestly, I don't see the difference.

That said, someone mentioned low/mid-level zones where exp is the reward. That isn't a bad idea in any way. I'm not entirely sure it would make you guys happy though, since you'd still be "doing exp." I mean, you wouldn't be high enough level to do real zones for real eq for a long time still... so I'd probably still see everyone out there soloing. ;)

Realistically though, if they decided to do this it would be awhile before the first new exp-zone was put in. So it is no instant quick-fix.

Not that that should stop you guys from putting such things in! :peer imms:
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