Kids . . . how many of us have them?

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Daz
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Kids . . . how many of us have them?

Postby Daz » Wed Sep 10, 2003 8:02 pm

Thats a spoof of a song that most of you will never know, don't sweat it.

What this is about is reading that I think we could all stand to look at for a few minutes, ESPECIALLY if you have children.

Child and family psychiatrist Robert Shaw says he wrote the latest book in the child-care advice genre because he had to. After the teen shootings at Columbine, he asked himself, "How would you have to raise your kids for them to do this?" His answer lay in the past three decades of books on child rearing. Although he admits there have been some stellar examples lately - Carol Eagle's "All That She Can Be: Helping Your Daughter Maintain her Self- Esteem," Michael Gurian's "The Good Son" and Audrey Ricker and Carolyn Crowder's "Backtalk: Four Steps To Ending Rude Behavior in Your Kids" - the majority have pushed a child-centric view that elevates the child to head of the household.

Shaw's book, "The Epidemic: The Rot of American Culture, Absentee and Permissive Parenting, and the Resultant Plague of Joyless, Selfish Children," (with Stephanie Woods; ReganBooks, $24.95) is a primer on how to raise an empathetic kid who will benefit society. It takes the reader on a detailed, instructive journey through a child's life, and is filled with concrete examples from patients Shaw has treated in his more than 45 years of practice. Shaw founded and serves as director of the Family Institute of Berkeley.

The book may not be welcomed, especially in the Bay Area-Shaw is a firm believer in children being raised by their parents, not by day-care providers. He agrees there are ways to be a working mother and still bond with and nurture your children, but he also stresses what a strain it will be. Parents should approach parenthood with eyes wide open and once on the path, keep the kids in line and out of trouble. The book can be as inspirational as it is frightening as a reader vacillates between "Is it too late for my kids?" and "That's it, we're cracking down tonight on those tantrums."

Shaw admits to a nagging fear of being "lynched in his hometown," but soldiered on anyhow; he's under the impression the public is now ready to hear how to fix our kids. He lives in the Bay Area with his wife, Judith, and practices in Berkeley. He has four grown children.

Following is an excerpt from the first chapter of the book, which hits bookstores in October.

Alison Biggar, Editor



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We are in crisis. Large numbers of children, even including those who could be considered privileged, are no longer developing the empathy, moral commitment and ability to love that is necessary to maintain our society at the level that has always been our dream. The emotional, psychological and moral well- being of the current generation of children has reached a frightening low point, and it's going to require a powerful shift in thinking to save them. A few short years ago, we were in serious denial that there was such a problem, but recent catastrophic events in our society are forcing us to face the inevitable: Our culture no longer offers what children need to truly thrive. While happy families were once the norm, more and more we see parents and children rushing frenetically from one task to another; children whining, bickering, tantruming, pouting; parents nagging, complaining and trying to ignore their unruly, surly offspring. Can you go to stores, restaurants or libraries without seeing these joyless children screaming, throwing food or pulling packages or books off shelves? Are you comfortable seeing such scenarios-or tempted to look the other way?
We can no longer turn a blind eye: There is a mountain of evidence now telling us what's truly good - and really bad - for kids.

When you hold a baby in your arms and see her sweet face looking up at you, you hope and expect that she will naturally grow up to be a well-developed, compassionate person. However, it doesn't happen naturally - children can be trained to a variety of outcomes. As a culture, we need to start noticing that the path to severe dysfunction is often subtle. Like termites, the epidemic of problem behavior silently burrows into your life and does great damage before it's discovered. If we as parents don't "train" our children in constructive, safe and expressive ways of operating in our society, their natural drive to connect with someone or some idea may well lead them toward some of the most destructive behavioral manifestations. They'll be "trained" all right, but perhaps by wayward peers, gangs, media or radical religious cults.

Teachers and grandparents have been complaining for years that today's children are out of control. The day of reckoning has arrived: We simply can't afford to raise our children this way.

We Determine Our Children's Future

Children are extremely malleable and plastic, and how we rear them is the major determinant of their outcome. I believe the parenting trends that have evolved over the last 30 years promote the development of unattached, non- communicative, learning impaired and uncontrollable children. We are experiencing an epidemic of school problems, both learning and behavioral. Teachers everywhere report that children are arriving ill-equipped to engage in school because they lack focus, purpose, connection, an ability to fit into a rules system and a desire to learn. At the extreme, our current culture may well be breeding a generation of unattached, predatory children who may be cognitively smart but who lack the capacity to appreciate the feelings and positions of other people.

This epidemic seeps like a fog into all of our culture. Parents find themselves enslaved by a materialistic, overachieving society that leads them to spend so many hours and so much money that they can't make the time to do the things necessary to bond with their children. They are worried that they might crush their children, stifle their self-esteem or kill their creativity, to the extent that all sense of proportion is lost about the role of a young child in a family. Their children are rarely given limits or permitted to experience frustration, and their moral and spiritual development are overlooked. As a result, essential values like empathy, effort, duty and honor do not develop. And on top of that, children are abandoned to the influence of the media - so much time is wasted on mind-numbing electronic entertainment such as television and video games that literacy, social development and creativity are all inhibited. These unbonded, untrained children agitate in ever-widening circles of problem behavior until they finally bump up against real limits - which all too often have to be supplied by institutions such as schools or, eventually, the law.

What are the chances that this will happen to your child? The answer lies within the lifestyle choices you make. Each decision that moves your family away from what we know is good for children - secure attachment to a primary caregiver; a safe, structured and ordered environment; lots of free time to exercise creativity and imagination - increases the level of risk to the child's development. The choices are tough ones, and with each decision, you set the odds, one way or the other.


The Roots of the Epidemic

Where does it all begin? The epidemic of which I'm writing cannot be imagined as a function of poverty, of the inner city or of a minority race. It is occurring in the homes of comfortable, educated parents. Its symptoms can be observed in every classroom, every playground, every supermarket and restaurant-in more and more households across America. The evidence begins early, and can be observed anywhere, in both parental and childhood behavior:

-- The parents of an 18-month-old leave her with a baby-sitter while they work all day. The sitter, in turn, plops her in a high chair to watch an endless parade of Barney videos. The child's response: She enters meltdown mode the minute Mommy arrives to take her home. Naturally Mommy can't wait to escape back to the office the next morning.

-- The two-career parents of a 3-year-old, too tired to cook, drag him out to yet another restaurant at the end of his own long day. The child tosses his food on the floor, whines incessantly that he wants to leave and then climbs off his seat, under the tables, and around the chairs of other patrons, ruining their meals as well. The parents pretend not to notice so they can finish their conversation.

-- A father goes to pick up a 4-year-old from a play date. The child spits in the face of his father, then screams all the way out the door. The father, clearly not used to being in control of his son, begs and cajoles ("we'll stop for ice cream on the way home") in a desperate effort to end the embarrassing scene.

-- Parents on the way to a friend's child's birthday party make a stop at the toy store with their own 5-year-old in tow. They explain that they are here for a present for Suzy, not her. The child throws a fit in the toy store until her parents give in and leave with two purchases. One can only imagine the scene at the party when the other child opens her presents.

As parents, our lives are filled with these critical moments. They may seem insignificant at the time, when you just need to get through that restaurant dinner or trip to the toy store, but how they're handled sends a vitally important message to your children about the nature of their relationship with you. From that sleep-deprived decision in the wee hours that it's easier to let a toddler come into bed with you than not, to that evening when you're too tired or lazy or even afraid to stand up to a rebellious teen, by not acting you are acting - and potentially in a harmful way. The parents of the younger children in the previous examples who tolerate public meltdowns now will likely be the same ones who have underachieving, disrespectful, vandalizing teens later.

Today's parents seem to have absorbed the notion that a child's life should be totally serene, totally self-expressive and totally free from frustration. But creating an atmosphere that feels satisfactory to the child all the time does her a disservice.

When you look at it this way, it's easy to see how the breeding ground of the epidemic goes all the way back to infancy. Of course, a newborn still adapting to her overwhelming new world needs and deserves immediate and constant attention. But by six months of age or so, a baby should have developed the capacity to doze off on her own and sleep through the night, or entertain herself with a toy for brief periods while a parent goes about the everyday tasks of life, such as cooking or making a phone call. Yet more and more often we see high-demand older babies who react intensely the minute they are put down and who continue to awaken their now zombie-like parents hour after hour throughout the night demanding complicated soothing routines. These infants grow into temperamental toddlers who refuse to accept routines and resist toilet training well past the age when they are capable (the manufacturing of a totally new product - large-size disposable diapers for preschoolers - is but one example of this trend). As 4- and 5-year-olds who should be evolving into happy, eager-to-please little people, they continue to react with tantrums when limits are set and suffer emotional collapse in the face of frustration.

It is totally human and expected that children are going to test out their parents and other authority figures - not to do so would also be abnormal. Rather than seeing all limit-testing as a bad thing, we must recognize its merits in helping the child safely determine what it expected of him in the world. The trouble is, indulging and distancing parents have allowed it to go beyond an acceptable level. When parents don't teach their children acceptable behavior, defiance becomes the norm. Of course a 1-year-old tries to pull hair or bite; he needs to be taught not to or he will continue to do it. Of course a 2-year-old will throw a tantrum; he must learn that such behavior is not permitted and will not get him his way, or he will continue to do it. Of course a 2- or 3-year-old will feel reluctant to share her toys; she must be taught that it's a nice thing to do, or she will continue to refuse to. Of course a 3- or 4-year-old may try to run into a dangerous street; he must learn that he can't. Not enforcing appropriate limits is neglecting the teachable moments that will ultimately civilize and protect your child.

Many of today's children have gotten the message that their frightened, guilt-ridden parents will give in if they put up enough of a fight. So rather than trying to please them, they oppose, resist and irritate; their parents, in turn, cringe and cower and cave in. Control has come to replace attachment and love, skewing development in an abnormal direction that has become accepted. Palatable labels ranging from "high-energy" to "hyperactive" to "temperamental" to "oppositional" are bandied about like personality traits that must be tolerated. Parents are lulled into believing these behaviors are the norm by the parenting gurus who preach child-centric theories: never let your baby cry; he'll use the potty when he's ready; discipline is disrespectful; the child's feelings should come first (well before yours, of course).

The media are part of this problem. In one recent issue of a popular child- rearing magazine I saw the following query from a reader: "My 3-year old is a delight in most ways, but if I ask her to do something, she'll say no, throw herself on the floor, and tell me I'm not her mommy anymore. I've raised her to express her feelings, but have I gone too far?" The answer from a noted pediatrician: "Her behavior is perfectly normal for a 3-year-old."

It is extremely sad to me to think of the children whose parents are being influenced by statements like this. If this were normal, why would anyone want to have a child? Children like this are being injured in their emotional development every day by being allowed to behave in totally inappropriate ways.

That a pediatrician is alleged to have accepted this as normal indicates to me how far this epidemic has penetrated into the fabric of child-rearing. Yes, a child might do something like this on a rare occasion, with provocation and stressful circumstances. But one time should be enough. It is possible to make clear that you will not bargain under duress. Children are very bright and learn the rules rapidly. The problem is that we are teaching them the wrong rules.

Those children who progress down this distorted developmental track are much more likely to become angry and alienated and assume a cold or contemptuous attitude toward others, especially authority figures. At home, they are secretive, sullen, broody presences. In school, behaviors such as distractibility, indifference, overdiagnosed attention deficit hyperactivity disorder

(ADHD), disdain for adults, whining and nagging detract from their ability to learn. Well-intentioned parents then take them to psychiatrists, who prescribe the latest medications to calm them down, help them focus in school and become more manageable.

To the parents of these out-of-control children, the daily indignities are frustrating but easy to rationalize: "She'll grow out of it," "I'm too tired to deal," "He's a high-spirited kid," "It's probably just puberty." But the saddest fact is undeniable: family life for many has become too much work, too little fun. Sheer lack of time and performance pressure on both adults and children have diminished the importance of seemingly less productive pursuits like playing peek-a-boo with a gurgling baby, sitting down to a family board game or chasing twinkling lightning bugs under the summer stars. Instead we find ourselves slaving after children who laugh in the face of our weak attempts at discipline, demand to be amused all day, and stay up late because we're too exhausted to put up the struggle it takes to get them to bed. These kids are fully in charge. No wonder they have piles of untouched toys - the real live playthings that are their parents are far more entertaining.

Meanwhile, modern moms and dads are encouraged by a culture in overdrive to push and prod and force their children onto an endless track of achievement, desperately squeezing one more enriching activity into their already too-tight schedules. The not-so-subliminal message: If Johnny doesn't do it all, he'll never keep up with the multitalented majority, he'll go the state university route instead of Ivy League, he may never discover his true calling and reach his potential. Driven by such superficial goals and constant consumerism, parents abdicate their children's day-to-day routines to others so they can work longer, while the beautiful home sits forlornly, the dining room table goes unused, the long family weekend away gets postponed when work calls. They feel regret, but they can't mobilize themselves to stop and relax and enjoy this family life that they so carefully cultivated.

Never before has the degree of dysfunction I have described afflicted privileged families in the numbers we're seeing today, nor has it begun so early. The American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry estimates that about 5 percent of children and adolescents suffer from depression, and suicide has risen to the third leading cause of death among teens.

These stricken children are proving ill-equipped to cope in the more demanding world beyond their homes. A recent study of more than 13,000 college students seeking psychological counseling revealed that their emotional difficulties are far more complex and more severe than in the past. Researchers at the counseling center at Kansas State University found that the percentage of students treated for depression or suicidal tendencies doubled in the 12 years from 1989 to 2001. More than twice the number of students was taking some type of psychiatric medication. Problems related to stress, anxiety, learning disabilities such as attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, family issues, grief and sexual assault also rose.

I find it painful but no surprise that these constantly placated children are growing into adults who are unable to take the rough-and-tumble of life. They have not been given the inner resources to deal with the stresses of responsibility and accountability. Then they land in the college counseling office, leaving the school responsible for their mental health.



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THE BIGGGEST MODERN PARENTING MISTAKES
-- Failing to establish a strong emotional bond with your child by not spending the necessary time and attention.

-- Not reading to, talking to or playing with young children to provide the experiences we know help them acquire literacy.

-- Accepting the idea that excessive non-parental care will be an adequate substitute for your relationship with your child.

-- Not having firm rules and routines that you administer calmly, fairly, assertively and without guilt or hesitation.

-- Not conveying to your child - through both actions and words - the moral, ethical, and spiritual values you believe in (or not having moral, ethical, and spiritual values in the first place).

-- Allowing your child inappropriate control over his life. A certain amount of control, doled out as a child is ready to handle it, is wonderful; too much control when your child is ill-prepared for it is disastrous.

-- Yelling at and threatening your children. You can be firm and reliable in reinforcing rules without resorting to these tactics. When you lose your temper, it says that you have delayed handling an issue until your frustration and impotence have become overwhelming. You can act firmly right away; you don't have to wait until you get angry.

-- Over-identifying with your child, to the extent that you assume he wants what you want, will fulfill your own aspirations, or will perform in a way that will enhance your self-image. In short, expecting your child to build your ego and solve your doubts.

-- Expecting too much while demanding too little. For instance, letting him loll around playing video games all day, then expecting him to win honors at school.

-- Not allowing your child to experience the rewards of earning and achieving on his own.

-- Overexposure to media.

-- Not giving your child the type of activities and experiences that promote his ability to sit quietly, concentrate and listen, then expecting schools to "fix" him. Not even the very best private schools or stellar public education systems can accomplish the same goals with underdeveloped children as they do with those who are well-adjusted and ready to learn.

-- Failing to talk things through. Direct, honest, complete communication should be the constant characteristic of your relationship with your child.

When parents commit these all-too-common mistakes in an effort to suit their own needs and concerns or through their own ignorance or lack of energy, they thwart their child's natural course of development. When you put off toilet training because you're too busy to deal with it, or allow your

6-year-old to keep crawling into your bed at night because you're too tired to put up a fight, or dole out money on demand instead of insisting on an allowance, or let curfews slide, you will cripple your child in the long run. These developmental tasks can feel endless at times, but it's naive to think that children will turn out fine if you just leave them alone. Values are not instinctual; they are passed on to your children day after day, in your every interaction with them. That is why, with effort, even very deviant children can be helped to gain the values they need.





From the book "The Epidemic," by Robert Shaw.


If you thought that any of that information was interesting, or want to read more about it . . . go here

It is something to think about.
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Postby Dlur » Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:28 am

Good article man. Makes a ton of sense and helps me re-afirm that I've been doing the right thing with my son be being firm and nipping potential problems before they become just that...problems.
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Postby Daz » Thu Sep 11, 2003 5:47 am

Glad to see that someone appreciated the article.
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Postby Sarvis » Thu Sep 11, 2003 11:29 am

Heh... I did too, pointed that out in the RIAA thread. Though I don't actually have kids... so my appreciation probably matters a lot less. ;)
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Postby Yadir » Thu Sep 11, 2003 3:04 pm

Is it just me or does this article seem to be common sense. It may be really revelatory if you don't have kids, but I think most parents figure this out - kids tend to force you to deal with them. :) I'll admit some parents may 'miss the point' because they are caught up in work or other areas of their life... but most want their kids to 'turn out right' and work/sacrifice for the best outcome.
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Postby Sarvis » Thu Sep 11, 2003 3:10 pm

That's the thing. I see all to much evidence on the news that parents are NOT doing this. Did you know that the kids from the columbine shootings built the bombs they used in their garage? You think their parents had the common sense this article talks about?
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Postby Yadir » Thu Sep 11, 2003 3:22 pm

"Many of today's children have gotten the message that their frightened, guilt-ridden parents will give in if they put up enough of a fight. So rather than trying to please them, they oppose, resist and irritate; their parents, in turn, cringe and cower and cave in. "

Sorry - but this is just doomsaying to sell a book if you ask me. I'm a parent.. I know lots of parents and kids.. see my kids and other kids and parents in schools, churches, extracurricular activies.. and I really think this is the minority. I'm not saying the problem doesn't exist.. but I don't think this guy has a sense of perspective.

I'm betting that Daz and Sarvis don't have kids and don't spend a lot of time around families and kids. I'm not saying that means you can't have an opinion about this... What I'm saying is that your opinion will probably change once you start a family and have a couple of kids and spend a lot of time around other families and thier kids.

I find that young adults and couples (no kids) have all kinds of advice for me about how to raise mine. Then a few years later when they have kids they have a totally different opinion.

For Example, I was once berated by my best friend for taking my daughter out of the church service when she was being a little loud (and disruptive, in my opinion). He thought I should use a 'firmer hand' and force her to be quiet thus teaching her reverence, etc. He was married with no kids at the time. He called me on the phone a few years later to apologize after he took his daughter out of the church services under exactly the same circumstances.

The point is kids are just kids.. parents do their best.. and somehow it all works out (as long as parents are trying). The danger is real.. but it seems to me that the whole book can be summed up with this advice - "Parents - do your best.. love your kids unconditionally and teach them correct principles and when they grow up they'll be contributing members of society." But there isn't much money in a book that short, is there?
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Postby Daz » Thu Sep 11, 2003 3:28 pm

im happy to hear that you live in a sheltered corner of society where parenting skills are not a problem, and happiness is found in abundance. for the majority, NOT the minority, the fact is that people don't know shit about raising their kids.
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Postby Ambar » Thu Sep 11, 2003 5:27 pm

Yadir is 100% right. it is very easy to tell people what they should do until the shoe is on the other foot, so to speak.
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Postby Daz » Thu Sep 11, 2003 5:33 pm

and people who don't acknowledge that the problem exist will help ensure that the problem continues to spread and grow, causing exponentially more damage.

its a virus, in its most simple form.
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Postby Sarvis » Thu Sep 11, 2003 6:18 pm

Ambar:

Ummm... aside from the fact that you are basically saying you support the "Barney will watch the kids" style of parenting, maybe we should point out that the author has several of his own kids? So while I may not be in your shoes, the author most certainly _is_.
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Sep 11, 2003 6:31 pm

Wow Sarvis, how in the world did you read THAT into it? Ambar didn't say that at all.

Parenting is a unique and individual task, in each and every instance. What works for one child does not necessarily work for another. Children cannot be forced into compliance, and if they are we cannot be assured that a well-rounded and stable adult will emerge. The answer is not to let Barney raise our children, of course, but the difficult fact of the matter is that there is NO set answer that works for every child.
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Postby Sarvis » Thu Sep 11, 2003 6:46 pm

It's easy to read that into what she said. I agreed with the article, and admitted I don't have kids. She says that anyone without kids cannot know anything about raising them, therefore implying I am wrong. If I am wrong, and I agree with the article then the article must be wrong. The article is about how too many parents these days are exactly such a thing as letting Barney babysit their children.

There may not be a set solution to raising children, but the general guidelines of disciplining your children and actually paying attention to them are universal.
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Postby Kurtok » Thu Sep 11, 2003 8:19 pm

the fact is that people don't know shit about raising their kids.


Unfortunately, there is no 101 class, training course, instruction manual nor Knowing Shit About Raising Kids for Dummies book. If we want to embrace diversity and individuality at its most ideal, then it's impossible for there to be any. Most "knowing shit about raising kids" comes on the fly or when-we-get-to-that-unknown-bridge-we'll-cross-it type scenario and you hope you will be able to do the best.
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Postby Daz » Thu Sep 11, 2003 8:45 pm

No, most 'knowing shit about raising kids' comes from having been raised properly by one or more parent figure. However, at some point in recent history, American women decided that burning their bras was more important than being home to remind the kids that dad is an asshole.

As such, children were raised by televisions. It is NOT tv's fault that the children were abandoned.
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Sep 11, 2003 8:56 pm

The problems we have today are NOT new, believe it or not. Each new culture sees their problems and bleats about how it's so much worse than it used to be, when it seems more like we always had the same old problems. Children were abandoned before television was ever created, and certainly before any woman could burn a bra in public and not get tossed into the stocks for it. The difference between then and now is that now we have flashy media to pump every incident into a crisis in order to fan the ratings flames, and it's a lot easier for everybody and their dog to publish their 'know it all' books. Child abandonment existed back then, prostitution existed back then, single mothers existed back then, joblessness existed back then, starvation existed back then, and pampered children who believed the world owed them a favor existed back then, as well.
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Postby Ambar » Thu Sep 11, 2003 10:29 pm

rofl Sarvis you REALLY are an idiot aren't you??? I said no such thing :P I'm glad you can read into a one line comment where I was agreeing with another poster :P Are you the parent that would politely ask his child to do something over and over? When the child doesnt do what you want after a period of time... you'd go off the wall ...

Child rearing is EASILY the most challenging yet rewarding 24/7 job in the world. As has been said there is no guide to being a great parent, but the end results are obvious. MY kids are the ones everyone says are perfect kids, polite, not disrespectful, they are in demand for babysitting, etc. We make daily mistakes in parenting, because every child, every new situation is different and will react differently to discipline. You have to be ready for anything, and be able to be clearheaded in every situation.

Barney? Smirk .. my kids were raised on firm discpline and love , so take your ill aimed insinuations elsewhere ..

thank you and please drive through
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:06 am

Kirtok:

No, there are no "instruction manuals," but there are books like this one. Unfortunately apparently every parent has "perfect" children and knows more than the author of tihs book, who not only had 4 children but some degrees in psychology as well.

Daz:

Abandoned is too strong a word here Daz, and you've confused our parents with it. These children aren't technically abandoned, since they still live with and are fed by their parents. It's just that their parents have taken on the role of vending machines more or less, who provide food. clothing and housing but not much else. Under the law parents like that are perfectly fine...

It's also not fair to just blame women in this. There's no reason women shouldn't be able to have careers as equally rewarding as men. The problem is noone thought about the children while women were fighting for that right. So now women are working full time, men are working full time and the children more often than not come home to an empty house because of it. Actually, the problem would be greatly lessened if our society lived in extended family units so that the grandparents were around to care for children while both parents were at work. Since we don't though, maybe each family should discuss which parent will stay home and raise the kids.

Here it should also be noted that children who spend a lot of time with babysitters tend to develop a disrespect for authority figures as they get older. I'll go ahead and submit myself as proof of that one.

Ashiwi:

Children going to school, planting bombs and shooting their classmates is very much a new problem. Yes, occasionally unsupervised children would accidentally shoot a friend after finding the father's handgun or something, but that is a lot different than the malice involved with something like Columbine. Sure, maybe the media blew that out of proportion. But that's because it was horrible and shocking enough even without their help. Putting our heads in the sand and pretending everything would be fine without media is _not_ a solution.

Ambar:

Yes, obviously I'm an idiot. I certainly can't know _anything_ about raising kids. Thanks for the flame...

When my kid doesn't do something, I wouldn't beg with him or let him go. It would be time for immediate punishment.

Oh, and I wasn't insinuating anything. I was merely stating that you disagreed with me, and since I was agreeing with the article you disagreed with that as well. The funny thing is that the article basically tells people to raise their kids the same way you claim to have...

So what? You just had to flame the childless guys who can't learn anything from observation and education?
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Postby Ambar » Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:29 am

you really have issues reading meaning between the lines dont you? I won't go into it nor will I respond again to the thread .. we were asked to refrain from flames and ... well you are too easy a target....
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:45 am

Yes, sorry about that. It's really too bad you aren't capable of coming up with anything other than a flame. Maybe because we both know my comments are valid?
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Postby Yadir » Fri Sep 12, 2003 2:27 am

Sarvis and Daz - I appreciate your fervor to save the world from the dangers presented by abovementioned author. I agree that the world could use better parents. I don't know any parent that doesn't have regrets or worry about their children.

But... you seem more interested in proving how smart you are than you are in having a world full of better kids.

You want to make a difference? Gear up and get in the game! Find yourself a wife, make a lifetime commitment to her and have some kids. Raise them right and make the world a better place.

That's what I'm doing. That's what Ambar is doing.
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Sep 12, 2003 2:52 am

Yadir wrote:Sarvis and Daz - I appreciate your fervor to save the world from the dangers presented by abovementioned author. I agree that the world could use better parents. I don't know any parent that doesn't have regrets or worry about their children.

But... you seem more interested in proving how smart you are than you are in having a world full of better kids.

You want to make a difference? Gear up and get in the game! Find yourself a wife, make a lifetime commitment to her and have some kids. Raise them right and make the world a better place.

That's what I'm doing. That's what Ambar is doing.


Easier said than done. Even if I could just "find a wife" I'm seriously in no financial position to support children right now.

Of course, since no one wants to hear how they might be able to better raise their children, my kids will probably just end up getting shot anyway.
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Postby Llaaldara » Fri Sep 12, 2003 3:06 am

Lock this thread. You're all behaving more childish then the children the author is talking about.

No books for raising kids? You mean none like this?

Image

Do a search on google about raising kids, you'll find a million links. They even have corses in college for it. The article stated sources for books that were in high regard. The author even had 45 years of experience working with other peopls kids who got out of control. 45 years of experience WITH OTHER PEOPLES CHILDREN. That's older then most of you even are.

Did any of you even read the article or did you all just jump up and down on what people were posting?
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Postby Daz » Fri Sep 12, 2003 7:07 am

you tell me to do something? why dont you ask? i am going to school so that i can become a high school teacher. because of the fat salary? hah. becaus i fucking care. because i want kids to know that they have hope, they have a future, they have someone who cares.

something i sure as fuck didn't have.

i work with non profit organizations to help troubled kids, and i go out of my way to help young people with problems along these lines, up to and including several people who are part of this community.

i plan on joining united way and the big brother/big sister program as soon as i become a teacher with respected credentials. i want to make every fucking kid in this country proud of who he is and confident in his own ability to have a future.

prove how smart i am? why would i post on this forum to do that? i posted to see who else shares a concern that i do, and maybe to open the eyes of at least one parent or figure.

if my post has made even ONE person stop and think about their own child or children in the future, then fuck all your insults - i will post this again a thousand times.

i write all my rambling shit because i am not alone, i know this, and i want everyone like me to see the little beacons i toss into the ocean.

there are diseases that are killing the minds of our children, and not all of those are drugs. the largest portion of that disease is a malignant cancer called 'ignorance'

maybe you might try to ask my motives before you impose them upon my writing.


god bless the first fucking amendment.
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:54 pm

Sarvis... the difference between now and the past is that now weapons capable of doing the kind of damage which was done at Columbine are much more readily available for people, and children can get ahold of them. I swear, if I used the kind of logic you used I'd be believing that nobody prior to the 21st century ever had the desire to inflict pain and death on large groups of people due to mental instability, simply because we hear about more of them on a regular basis today than we read in recorded history.

And you accuse me of sticking my head in the sand and ignoring the problem? Hardly. All I was saying is that the problem's been around a lot longer than a lot of people buy into.

Are you just determined to find fault in everybody else's views but your own... or just determined to prove that everybody really is against you? "She doesn't like vanilla ice cream, therefore she shows that she does not like me" logic is seriously skewed, hon.
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Postby Shar » Fri Sep 12, 2003 2:03 pm

This is the only warning this thread will get. Stop the flames or the entire thread will be edited then locked. If you want to flame one another, do it away from this BBS, away from this MUD.
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Postby Daz » Fri Sep 12, 2003 6:58 pm

did i flame? i didnt intend to, i just wanted to explain myself, im sorry
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Postby Kurtok » Fri Sep 12, 2003 7:58 pm

Do a search on google about raising kids, you'll find a million links.


Haha! I stand corrected. Damn, there must be one of those Dummies books for everything. In any case, I don't approve of those Dummies books to begin with. Giving someone a book because they are a Dummy doesn't help to build the self-esteem. "Here you must be Dummy parents (over whatever topic). You need this book."
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Sep 12, 2003 8:38 pm

Sorry Ashiwi, but I don't buy into your theory of weapon availability being the problem. I prefer to blame the _people_ causing the problem, rather than the tools they use. They're the ones who actually have a choice in the matter.

Besides, even if gun availability were less in the past, and it wasn't during frontier times when almost every family had at least one gun to go west with, it doesn't show anything except that there were bad parents back then as well! Simply stating that people didn't know how to parent their kids 100 years ago actually supports our point, in that maybe parents don't just automatically have some trump card they can use when good advice comes along.

In short form: Either the problem is developing due to worsening parenting skills, or the problem was always there because of bad parenting skills and is getting worse because of worsening parenting skills.

In either case, how does this book hurt anyone? How is our desire to bring something helpful to people's attention a bad thing, worthy of the flaming we have endured?

The funny thing is you an Ambar keep claiming my logic is flawed with regard to the inferences I made about her initial post. Yet neither of you have said how it's wrong. Just that I'm an illogical idiot. I'm not in this because I want to prove how smart I am, nor because I want to prove everyone is against me. I'm in this because I think the author of that book made some excellent points. Unfortunately everyone thinks they know best, and automatically attacks that book because only a parent can know how to raise their own children. Well, if that's true then why did Columbine happen? I mean, obviously the Kleebold's (sp?) knew how to raise their children properly, since it's an automatically obtained parental virtue... :roll:




And I still think it's telling that the RIAA thread drew more immediate attention, and more in general, than this one has. I mean, we could infer something from that I'm sure... but I'm apparently incapable of making inferences as a non-parent.
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Sep 12, 2003 8:56 pm

Sigh. Once again I'm going to say... it's not weapon availability that's the problem, and it's not a new problem.
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Sep 12, 2003 9:01 pm

Sarvis... the difference between now and the past is that now weapons capable of doing the kind of damage which was done at Columbine are much more readily available for people, and children can get ahold of them. - Ashiwi


Sorry, but that's exactly what you claimed in your last post.

And if it isn't a new problem, that just means some parents should have read this book starting hundreds of years ago.
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Sep 12, 2003 10:43 pm

Sigh. Once again I'm going to say... it's not weapon availability that's the problem, and it's not a new problem.

It's not getting worse because of worsening parent skills in the general population, because the worst parenting skills have already existed throughout time in great numbers. It is becoming more prevalent, perhaps because of growing populations, or perhaps because we are simply becoming more aware of the true numbers of these incidents. Because overpopulation for the amount of available resources has been a problem repeatedly in the past, with all the social ills that go hand in hand with it, I tend to believe that we are only being made more aware of the problems now.

As for the Columbine shootings and the availability of guns... Billy the Kid knifed a man to death at the age of twelve. Do you really think that children even fifty years ago were so much less maladjusted than they are now, or that parents were any less ignorant/brutal/negligent in their upbringing? Countess Elizabeth of Bathory wasn't exactly an old woman when she started brutalizing her servants and local peasant girls. Was child-rearing better back in that age?

It's not just that we are exposed to more negative influences today, it's also that we are being bombarded with news of all the negative influences that are happening around us. Burying your head in the sand doesn't make things go away, but saturating your life with all that negativity doesn't seem to be making anything any better, does it? It’s not that it happens more, it’s just that we know more about it happening. All these people who are trying to turn a quick buck by telling you how to fix this ‘new and startling’ situation aren’t saying anything that countless other people haven’t said over and over through countless generations, using slightly different words and techniques to address the problem as they saw fit.

Does “Spare the rod and spoil the child” sound familiar?

Note: I have no idea how that last post happened, I was in the middle of posting and our server locked up, so it only posted a partial message. Very strange.

And Sarvis, you have an uncanny knack for seeing only what you want to see in a post. That is NOT what I claimed in my last post. I said the DIFFERENCE between now and then is weapons availability, along with the media. I never said that if kids didn't have access to the same resources that kids do today that they wouldn't pull a Columbine on their one-room schoolhouse. Please stop twisting the words of people to suit your own view of what you think everybody who doesn't support your exact ideology is really saying. When I think that the availability of guns is the real problem, I'll come out and say "THE PROBLEM WITH THIS WORLD IS THE FACT THAT KIDS CAN GET GUNS EASILY." That's not the problem, and having everybody read this book will work as soon as you can force everybody in the world to sit down and read this book... and control their tempers, and develop patience, and develop emotionally, mentally and educationally at the same pace, and have the same familial make-up and identical support systems, and have healthy diets so that their physical and cognitive capabilities are operating at full capacity (which means every family in the world can afford luxuries like fresh fruit and vegetables, meats, and plenty of milk), and get all kids off computers and out into the sunshine more so that their bodies can process the vitamins and minerals they need properly, and eliminate all forms of mental disease and disfunction... and the list goes on.

Oh wait... forcing everybody to do the same thing never really works either, does it?
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Postby Sarvis » Sat Sep 13, 2003 2:35 am

Ashiwi, before I go searching for more statistics and such can you clarify what point you are trying to get across?

Right now you seem to be saying that there was always a problem, and it's getting worse due to an increasing population (therefore more possibilities for bad parents) but that people should still be left to guess their way through child rearing because these authors are just trying to cash in.

If my evaluation is incorrect, please tell me what you are really trying to get across.
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Postby Snurgt » Sat Sep 13, 2003 11:23 am

The "stop the flaming" seems to be on a hair trigger lately. Just let people debate, sometimes it gets heated, thats life. I'm noticing a trend for quick thread-locking and tendency towards more heavy-handed dealing recently.
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Postby thanuk » Sat Sep 13, 2003 11:35 pm

Snurgt wrote:The "stop the flaming" seems to be on a hair trigger lately. Just let people debate, sometimes it gets heated, thats life. I'm noticing a trend for quick thread-locking and tendency towards more heavy-handed dealing recently.


Shut the hell up you stupid bastard.
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Postby Dalar » Sun Sep 14, 2003 2:55 am

thanuk wrote:
Snurgt wrote:The "stop the flaming" seems to be on a hair trigger lately. Just let people debate, sometimes it gets heated, thats life. I'm noticing a trend for quick thread-locking and tendency towards more heavy-handed dealing recently.


Shut the hell up you stupid bastard.

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Postby Snurgt » Sun Sep 14, 2003 2:56 am

thanuk wrote:Shut the hell up you stupid bastard.


You get even more ridiculous with every word that comes tumbling out your over-used mouth. You couldn't get a clue during clue mating season in a field of clues if you smeared your body in musk and did the clue mating dance. Well, you're certainly thoughtless; I just wish that you were keyboard-less too.
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Postby Ensis » Sun Sep 14, 2003 3:49 am

Snurgt wrote:
thanuk wrote:Shut the hell up you stupid bastard.


You get even more ridiculous with every word that comes tumbling out your over-used mouth. You couldn't get a clue during clue mating season in a field of clues if you smeared your body in musk and did the clue mating dance. Well, you're certainly thoughtless; I just wish that you were keyboard-less too.


Clue musk?..I think someone needs to take a break from bugs bunny cartoons and come back to reality. While you're at it, buy a freakin vowel for your name.
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Postby Snurgt » Sun Sep 14, 2003 3:55 am

Ensis wrote:Clue musk?..I think someone needs to take a break from bugs bunny cartoons and come back to reality. While you're at it, buy a freakin vowel for your name.


If your brain matter was axle grease, there wouldn't be enough in your head to grease the dynamo on a lightening bug's ass. If brains were dynamite, you wouldn't have enough to blow the kneecap off a flea. You wouldn't know Up from Down if you had three guesses. Your post is the world's greatest proof of reincarnation; no one could get that dumb in just one lifetime.

Finally, take a look at this map. See this little tiny island, way out in the Pacific Ocean? That's where the people who care live.
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Postby Gura » Sun Sep 14, 2003 3:59 am

omg! quickly! before it gets locked! flame on! I say this purely as an innocent bystander and not an instigator. I r innocent i swears it.
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Postby Daz » Sun Sep 14, 2003 9:44 am

xa wrote:hrmm. never even heard of this guy. sux man.. the skatepark was right down the street so sad he had to kill people :) would be so much radder if he would have gone on a killing spree with nothing but a skateboard.





not singling ya out xa, just an example.

i dont think that this statement, in this thread, needs anything more than the volumes it speaks for itself.
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Postby Ensis » Sun Sep 14, 2003 6:02 pm

Snurgt wrote:
Ensis wrote:Clue musk?..I think someone needs to take a break from bugs bunny cartoons and come back to reality. While you're at it, buy a freakin vowel for your name.


If your brain matter was axle grease, there wouldn't be enough in your head to grease the dynamo on a lightening bug's ass. If brains were dynamite, you wouldn't have enough to blow the kneecap off a flea. You wouldn't know Up from Down if you had three guesses. Your post is the world's greatest proof of reincarnation; no one could get that dumb in just one lifetime.

Finally, take a look at this map. See this little tiny island, way out in the Pacific Ocean? That's where the people who care live.


Nobody talks to me like that you son of a motherless goat.
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Postby Daz » Sun Sep 14, 2003 10:10 pm

anyone else notice that its mostly women who think there isn't a problem with kids?

personally, im reminded of women who sit in a mall with screaming brats who destroy everything - and then, upon confrontation look at you with that blank look of confusion - 'my angel? what do you mean out of control?'
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Postby Yadir » Mon Sep 15, 2003 2:52 pm

Daz,

Mothers don't deserve the bad rap you're giving them.. Your opinion is understandable but sadly underinformed. I know because I sometimes find myself tempted to ask my wife 'What did you do today?' when I come home to a house that is a little messy or kids running amok. What she needs on those days isn't my clueless criticism - what she could use is a hand - 'Which would you rather me do - the dirty dishes or pick up the downstairs, honey?'. You don't know what it's like dealing with those screaming kids day in and day out (particularly when they are young and it seems like they're screaming or yelling or asking for something _all_the_time). I get an 'eye-opener' every now and then when my wife goes on a trip and I'm running the show solo for a day or two. It's 10 times harder than any work I've ever done and more than I can handle sometimes. No suprise that it will overwhelm a mother every now and again. It overwhelms me the first day I try it on my own.

Motherhood is the most thankless job in existence. You will learn much about this topic when you are married and have a child. Until that time, I suggest you keep your mouth closed on that topic. Mothers deserve much much more appreciation than they are given - by far. Mothers sacrifice careers, personal pursuits, free time, physical health - in short - many things that you consider 'your personal freedoms' in order to raise children. And they will tell you that it is worth it.

I hope you can see the other side to your tale. If you can't - realize that their is no possible benefit to us or that woman from your scorn... but good could come from a compassionate act.
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Postby Dlur » Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:10 pm

Yadir wrote:Daz,

Mothers don't deserve the bad rap you're giving them.. Your opinion is understandable but sadly underinformed. I know because I sometimes find myself tempted to ask my wife 'What did you do today?' when I come home to a house that is a little messy or kids running amok. What she needs on those days isn't my clueless criticism - what she could use is a hand - 'Which would you rather me do - the dirty dishes or pick up the downstairs, honey?'. You don't know what it's like dealing with those screaming kids day in and day out (particularly when they are young and it seems like they're screaming or yelling or asking for something _all_the_time). I get an 'eye-opener' every now and then when my wife goes on a trip and I'm running the show solo for a day or two. It's 10 times harder than any work I've ever done and more than I can handle sometimes. No suprise that it will overwhelm a mother every now and again. It overwhelms me the first day I try it on my own.

Motherhood is the most thankless job in existence. You will learn much about this topic when you are married and have a child. Until that time, I suggest you keep your mouth closed on that topic. Mothers deserve much much more appreciation than they are given - by far. Mothers sacrifice careers, personal pursuits, free time, physical health - in short - many things that you consider 'your personal freedoms' in order to raise children. And they will tell you that it is worth it.

I hope you can see the other side to your tale. If you can't - realize that their is no possible benefit to us or that woman from your scorn... but good could come from a compassionate act.


Word up Yadir. I'm a guy, with a kid, and I agree. I used to get pissed off when I came home and the house was destroyed, the laundry undone, and no supper on the table. Then I tried it for a while. I'd rather work in a salt mine.

That being said, I do think parents in general could do a little more to curb the growing tide of obese, ill mannered, clueless, common-sense lacking children they are raising. Part of this is due to people who shouldn't be allowed to breed breeding, but in general everyone is just too damned busy these days. Also no parent can "lay down the law" with their kids anymore for fear of going to prison for child abuse. Spankings do work in moderation, but even moderation is frowned upon these days.

Oh well, the world will run out of cork in aproximately 2012 and shortly thereafter we will run out of wine. When we run out of wine, civilization as we know it will cease to exist and we will all be reduced to a slobbering mass of uneducated beasts. That and Snurgt's mom.
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:13 pm

Okay, hrmmm, what was I trying to say...

::yawn::

I don't get online on the weekends. Since I split from my husband I've been trying to stay out of the house and busy as much as possible, so I hope you don't think your brilliance scared me off, Sarvis.

I think I was originally trying to say that you tend to read too much into other people's statements, in this case Ambar's. No single approach is going to work to fix this problem, and no single approach is going to work for all children.

As for the rest... make of it what you will, I'm too tired to feel argumentative this morning. Lemme wake up first.

The cops came and pounded on my door this morning at 6 AM, yelling and ordering me to come open the door. Apparently the guy who lived in my apartment before me is now wanted for armed robbery and my address is the last one the police had for him. Joy. I always wanted to meet a bullet-proof shield at my door before my alarm even went off while I'm fumbling around for a bathrobe because I sleep in the buff and the cops are screaming because they think I'm procrastinating in order to hide something (heh, and I guess in a way I was). The whole group who searched through my dinky apartment was awfully nice and apologetic afterwards, but I sure do wish they would have let the neighbors (and the rest of the neighborhood, since they yelled loud enough to be heard down the block) know that it was all a misunderstanding and I'm not really one of the FBI's top ten most wanted.
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:17 pm

Yadir wrote:Daz,

Mothers sacrifice careers, personal pursuits, free time, physical health - in short - many things that you consider 'your personal freedoms' in order to raise children.



No, mothers _used_ to sacrifice all those things. These days they are almost expected to have a career and kids at the same time, while pursuing their own interests in their spare time. Lower class families can't live on one income anymore, and middle/upper class families always need another more expensive SUV which takes two incomes to pay for if you also want a college fund.

You are right that being a mother (or stay-at-home father) is one of the hardest jobs in existence. The problem is that because it is so hard, AND so critical you shouldn't really be trying to do it _and_ another full time job. One parent/guardian should have his or her job as raising the children and that's it. At least one. Doesn't matter if it's the mother, father, grandmother or even uncle. But someone needs to be their to supervise, love and nurture the child. Child Care can't do it, a kid is just one face in 30 there and doesn't get the attention the need, and desperately crave. Yet the percentage of children in day care or other organized care has increased from 13% in 1977 to 36% in 1999. ( http://www.census.gov/population/socdem ... tableA.txt and http://www.census.gov/population/www/so ... l-168.html ) That doesn't even include latch-key children and other care arrangements such as babysitters. Given that rate of increase, 40% doesn't seem unreasonable today. Nearly half our children are _not_ being cared for by their parents.

Researchers found that the more time children spent in child care from birth to age 4½, the more adults tended to rate them as less likely to get along with others, more assertive, disobedient, and aggressive.
- http://www.ktvu.com/family/2336551/detail.html



So yeah, maybe it's all just in my head. And maybe, just maybe the mothers (parents even) Daz is talking about in the mall are stay at home mothers. But the odds only _barely_ support that theory...
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:20 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Okay, hrmmm, what was I trying to say...

::yawn::

I don't get online on the weekends. Since I split from my husband I've been trying to stay out of the house and busy as much as possible, so I hope you don't think your brilliance scared me off, Sarvis.

I think I was originally trying to say that you tend to read too much into other people's statements, in this case Ambar's. No single approach is going to work to fix this problem, and no single approach is going to work for all children.

As for the rest... make of it what you will, I'm too tired to feel argumentative this morning. Lemme wake up first.

The cops came and pounded on my door this morning at 6 AM, yelling and ordering me to come open the door. Apparently the guy who lived in my apartment before me is now wanted for armed robbery and my address is the last one the police had for him. Joy. I always wanted to meet a bullet-proof shield at my door before my alarm even went off while I'm fumbling around for a bathrobe because I sleep in the buff and the cops are screaming because they think I'm procrastinating in order to hide something (heh, and I guess in a way I was). The whole group who searched through my dinky apartment was awfully nice and apologetic afterwards, but I sure do wish they would have let the neighbors (and the rest of the neighborhood, since they yelled loud enough to be heard down the block) know that it was all a misunderstanding and I'm not really one of the FBI's top ten most wanted.


No prob, take your time. I'd probably be upset too... although I've been up since 4pm yesterday, and I sleep in my clothes anyway.

I ended up throwing my statistics at Yadir anyway. ;)

Now I just gotta get the image of a naked sleeping Ashiwi outta my head... :whistles innocently:
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:24 pm

Sarvis wrote:Now I just gotta get the image of a naked sleeping Ashiwi outta my head... :whistles innocently:


I'm a 36 year old chubby chick in real life. That should help.
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:27 pm

:swat: No yer not... yer one 'o them nancing elfs! Err... I think. It really has been too long since I've played... :sigh:
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