Enjoying life with the Patriot Act

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Dlur
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Enjoying life with the Patriot Act

Postby Dlur » Mon Sep 15, 2003 1:59 pm

Nifty little article on Salon about the absolute BS the government is pulling with the Patriot Act:

http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2003/09/14/patriot/


3nj0y the slow, careful removal of all of your rights as an American citizen.
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Dlur
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Postby Dlur » Mon Sep 15, 2003 2:04 pm

This is an excerpt taken from Ashcroft's Senate testimony on the Patriot Act:

http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/testimony/2001/ ... ycommittee. htm

In all these ways and more, the Department of Justice has sought to prevent terrorism with reason, careful balance and excruciating attention to detail. Some of our critics, I regret to say, have shown less affection for detail. Their bold declarations of so-called fact have quickly dissolved, upon inspection, into vague conjecture. Charges of "kangaroo courts" and "shredding the Constitution" give new meaning to the term, "the fog of war."

Since lives and liberties depend upon clarity, not obfuscation, and reason, not hyperbole, let me take this opportunity today to be clear: Each action taken by the Department of Justice, as well as the war crimes commissions considered by the President and the Department of Defense, is carefully drawn to target a narrow class of individuals -- terrorists. Our legal powers are targeted at terrorists. Our investigation is focused on terrorists. Our prevention strategy targets the terrorist threat.

Let me repeat the important part:

Each action taken by the Department of Justice, as well as the war crimes commissions considered by the President and the Department of Defense, is carefully drawn to target a narrow class of individuals -- terrorists. Our legal powers are targeted at terrorists. Our investigation is focused on terrorists. Our prevention strategy targets the terrorist threat.
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Postby Sarvis » Mon Sep 15, 2003 2:24 pm

In one case prosecuted this year, investigators used a provision of the Patriot Act to recover $4.5 million from a group of telemarketers accused of tricking elderly U.S. citizens into thinking they had won the Canadian lottery. Prosecutors said the defendants told victims they would receive their prize as soon as they paid thousands of dollars in income tax on their winnings.
Before the anti-terrorism act, U.S. officials would have had to use international treaties and appeal for help from foreign governments to retrieve the cash, deposited in banks in Jordan and Israel. Now, they simply seized it from assets held by those banks in the United States.


I'm so conflicted. I mean, who can argue that recovering $4.5 million and returning it to the victimes, while at the same time punishing telemarketers (of any kind) is a bad thing?

I hate being able to see multiple sides to an issue sometimes...
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Postby Dlur » Mon Sep 15, 2003 2:31 pm

Sarvis wrote:
In one case prosecuted this year, investigators used a provision of the Patriot Act to recover $4.5 million from a group of telemarketers accused of tricking elderly U.S. citizens into thinking they had won the Canadian lottery. Prosecutors said the defendants told victims they would receive their prize as soon as they paid thousands of dollars in income tax on their winnings.
Before the anti-terrorism act, U.S. officials would have had to use international treaties and appeal for help from foreign governments to retrieve the cash, deposited in banks in Jordan and Israel. Now, they simply seized it from assets held by those banks in the United States.


I'm so conflicted. I mean, who can argue that recovering $4.5 million and returning it to the victimes, while at the same time punishing telemarketers (of any kind) is a bad thing?

I hate being able to see multiple sides to an issue sometimes...


Yeah punishing telemarketers is cool. Returning money to the elderly is great. Killing most if not all telemarketers for doing what they do (call me while eatting supper) might be ok. But using a law designed and specifically brought about to fight terrorism to punish and recover these funds is wrong. Especially when ol' Johny boy was specifically quoted as saying, "Our legal powers are targeted at terrorists. Our investigation is focused on terrorists. Our prevention strategy targets the terrorist threat. " He was not quoted as saying, "We don't like telemarketers or drugies so we're going to punish them with archaeic sentancing guidelines and use our previously unavailable surveilance means that we pushed through Congress in the heat of the moment when nobody was looking because everyone was in an uproar over one specific incident."


Let me quote one of our founding fathers here: "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. " Ben Franklin.
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"Censorship is telling a man he can't eat a steak just because a baby can't chew it." - Mark Twain
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Postby rylan » Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:12 pm

The problem is that its a good law being used in warped ways. We should know by now that people (especially politicians) will find loopholes and twist things around to their liking.
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Postby Waelos » Mon Sep 15, 2003 11:46 pm

Aren't Telemarketers Terrorists? ;)
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Postby thanuk » Tue Sep 16, 2003 3:24 am

If the mud splits, then the terrorists win.
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Postby moritheil » Wed Sep 17, 2003 3:57 pm

thanuk wrote:If the mud splits, then the terrorists win.


What does it take for the counterterrorists to win?
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Postby Sarvis » Wed Sep 17, 2003 4:04 pm

Grenade Launchers.
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Postby Gerad » Wed Sep 17, 2003 5:46 pm

AWP
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Postby Stamm » Wed Sep 17, 2003 6:52 pm

rylan wrote:The problem is that its a good law being used in warped ways. We should know by now that people (especially politicians) will find loopholes and twist things around to their liking.


If it can be used in warped ways then it is a bad law.

Knee jerk reactions are inevitable when thousands of people are murdered in cold blood, and it's only human nature to abuse the laws created by them for your own ends, even if you do feel the ends justify the means.
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Postby Dalar » Wed Sep 17, 2003 11:06 pm

moritheil wrote:
thanuk wrote:If the mud splits, then the terrorists win.


What does it take for the counterterrorists to win?

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Postby Taleer » Sun Sep 21, 2003 5:01 am

Stamm wrote:
rylan wrote:The problem is that its a good law being used in warped ways. We should know by now that people (especially politicians) will find loopholes and twist things around to their liking.


If it can be used in warped ways then it is a bad law.

Knee jerk reactions are inevitable when thousands of people are murdered in cold blood, and it's only human nature to abuse the laws created by them for your own ends, even if you do feel the ends justify the means.


So we need to scrap the entire legal system?

Personally I don't see a conflict. The law was written to find and prosecute terrorists. They abused the law. As much as I hate to say it the findings should be made inadmissable, and the ones who did it should be put away. I'm a big fan of anonimity. The Govt. only needs to know the bare minimum about me unless they have reason to believe I am brakeing the law, and they should have to prove that too. I also tend to think that computers suck. I'm a seasoned programmer, and other than the mud I have never seen anything good come from a computer. Unless you count working harder, for the same pay, and taking work home because you can a good thing. That's my 2 cents. Who has my change?
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Postby Guest » Sun Sep 21, 2003 5:35 am

Taleer wrote:I also tend to think that computers suck. I'm a seasoned programmer, and other than the mud I have never seen anything good come from a computer.


boggle, you feeling ok Taleer?
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Postby Kifle » Mon Sep 22, 2003 9:27 pm

Azuth wrote:
Taleer wrote:I also tend to think that computers suck. I'm a seasoned programmer, and other than the mud I have never seen anything good come from a computer.


boggle, you feeling ok Taleer?


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Postby Caedym » Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:51 pm

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