All,
Recently an Illithid brought some concerns to me that the Psi class had been too heavily downgraded, and I wanted to run it by you all first for opinions. The following issues combined together, has brought about this concern:
1. Magic Resistance affects Psi power, in many cases severely limiting what mobs it can be used on. Aside from the fact that MR Should have Nothing to do with Psi power, this has been a factor.
2. The Mind Blank spell offers Enchanter mobs (or mobs with enchanters) a double-block on Psi damage.
3. Shockwave and other Psi spells have been reduced alot in damage. During a test the highest I saw was 700, where before I was seeing illithids regularly top 1000 over my status.
Is this a problem?
Miax
Psionic Power
-
Guest
1) Everyone I know has agreed that magic resistance affecting psionics was a very strange addition, and one that most people truly hate, and has watered down the evil offensive capability quite a bit.
2) I only know of two existing enchanter mobs in the game, one of which I can't even remember the name of right now. I don't feel this is a problem.
3) In early Beta, before the downgrades to ultrablast/etc, our damage output was nearly what I would call 'insane'. I don't know the numbers, obviously. Personally, there aren't enough Psi around any more to really be able to accurately judge this. We have something like 3 that play any more (at high level).
I recall several threads where changes were promised to the Psi class, where it was assured not all would be positive. As far as I know, the only changes resulting were downgrades in damage, and the addition of a 'worthless' (to quote the psi) stun effect from mindblast. There are many bugs with the class that have never been addressed (such as globe of darkness problems), and I was wondering when someone would get around to checking the class out again (hopefully before they all disappeared). Thanks for looking into it
-Todrael
[This message has been edited by Todrael (edited 03-31-2002).]
2) I only know of two existing enchanter mobs in the game, one of which I can't even remember the name of right now. I don't feel this is a problem.
3) In early Beta, before the downgrades to ultrablast/etc, our damage output was nearly what I would call 'insane'. I don't know the numbers, obviously. Personally, there aren't enough Psi around any more to really be able to accurately judge this. We have something like 3 that play any more (at high level).
I recall several threads where changes were promised to the Psi class, where it was assured not all would be positive. As far as I know, the only changes resulting were downgrades in damage, and the addition of a 'worthless' (to quote the psi) stun effect from mindblast. There are many bugs with the class that have never been addressed (such as globe of darkness problems), and I was wondering when someone would get around to checking the class out again (hopefully before they all disappeared). Thanks for looking into it
-Todrael
[This message has been edited by Todrael (edited 03-31-2002).]
ok, i don't think i have any good reasons personally, but i believe that illithids have been downgraded too much. they're so weak physically, dmg. is all they have of course. azzzmohazzz made a good post about it somewhere, and i agree with him.
ok here i found it:
http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum6/HTML/001256.html
[This message has been edited by muma (edited 03-31-2002).]
ok here i found it:
http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum6/HTML/001256.html
[This message has been edited by muma (edited 03-31-2002).]
Playing a squid durring soj/toril to 47th level and playing one soj3 48th level (Xserreellex) this is what I have to say about squids.
The ability for mobs to factor in magic resistance in illithid attacks shouldn't be included. Instead, make some of the extremely hard fights include a new factor such as psionic resistance. This will at least give back more use to the illithids in zone groups then just taxi'ing players/corpses.
So given the fact there is lower damage with ultrablast as stated above (700), the damage reduced from magic resistance would make squids more potent damagewise given how their class falls under the mage class and very low hps.
Just my two cents.
The ability for mobs to factor in magic resistance in illithid attacks shouldn't be included. Instead, make some of the extremely hard fights include a new factor such as psionic resistance. This will at least give back more use to the illithids in zone groups then just taxi'ing players/corpses.
So given the fact there is lower damage with ultrablast as stated above (700), the damage reduced from magic resistance would make squids more potent damagewise given how their class falls under the mage class and very low hps.
Just my two cents.
I am not one for complaining out loud too often unless its something I truly feel strong about. I usually just take things in stride but recently all I have seen is the dwindling of other players of my class and my excitement about playing an Illithid disappearing. The reasons Miax brought about are some of the main ideas which have been under constant flux.
1) I have always been against MR vs. Psionics. I just don’t agree with the idea that something that protects versus magic also can stop mind attacks. Each class has its only special abilities; this was one of the benefits of the classes that counter balanced the side effects of the class. Illithids only have single effect skills, meaning one skill does not give off multi effects at once (example Force Missile/Magic Missiles). These spells are examples of ways spells casters have a chance to navigate MR. So maybe 0-3 missiles get through per Spell, compared to Illithids 0-1. I am sure everyone will agree with me when I say that there are too many mobiles showing up with magic resistance. Seems even all types of undead have MR now, and of course all dragons/demons/djinns/elementals/ golems have MR as well. With Illithids losing their special ability to effect those with MR, evils have become more and more focused on rogues and warriors. And since evils do not have the diversity of hitter classes as those on the good side it is more detrimental.
2) Mind Blank does offer double duty versus Illithids since MR stops Psionics. Like Todrael mentioned not many mobiles currently cast this spell, but as the zones get updated since mobiles can no be set as enchanters, it will become more and more prevalent. Also this spell can be cast on others, so any group of mobiles that have an enchanter in their mists will have the spell on them. One of my ways of attempting to get past MR is to use mindblast instead of the truly more damaging skills and since Mind Blank stops mindblast that is where the double duty is coming more into existence.
3) Well this has always been a problem. Trying to balance damage for this class in comparison to all the other damage classes has been an interesting road. From my understanding most of the problems have been due to coding differences between Spell damage and Psionic damage. With the many tweaks that have been going on since the beginning of Soj3 the damage for each of the skills has gone both up and down sporadically. Miax is of course right, Ultrablast at one point was doing right around 1k damage, up and down. Now most recently it’s back down to where it was at the beginning of Soj3, doing about 300-700 damage. Considering that it is the illithids only big area damage skill I believe it could be doing more around where it was, 1k range. Mindblast has had an increase in damage as far as I can tell. Project force which is a higher level skill and has more of a delay but currently doesn’t seem to do as much as mindblast does. Project force gets used more often at the moment however because in long fights it’s cheaper and therefore more efficient use of PSP. Detonate is the 4th and hardly ever used damage skill for illithids and is very limited in its use. Detonates damage is low as well and could probably use something more and should be taken into consideration its strong limitations. DeathField is the low level area damage skill. Can not say much about it since I do not play with it enough to make a good judgment.
I hope this helps you see and understand the need for psionics to be looked over and that this information can help you make any changes you feel are necessary. My current motivation for attempting Tiamat as Lazzraxxuum is low. Only reason I would consider going at the moment is as a moral leader because I would not be doing much of anything else. All my class has skills for is damage.
Lazz
1) I have always been against MR vs. Psionics. I just don’t agree with the idea that something that protects versus magic also can stop mind attacks. Each class has its only special abilities; this was one of the benefits of the classes that counter balanced the side effects of the class. Illithids only have single effect skills, meaning one skill does not give off multi effects at once (example Force Missile/Magic Missiles). These spells are examples of ways spells casters have a chance to navigate MR. So maybe 0-3 missiles get through per Spell, compared to Illithids 0-1. I am sure everyone will agree with me when I say that there are too many mobiles showing up with magic resistance. Seems even all types of undead have MR now, and of course all dragons/demons/djinns/elementals/ golems have MR as well. With Illithids losing their special ability to effect those with MR, evils have become more and more focused on rogues and warriors. And since evils do not have the diversity of hitter classes as those on the good side it is more detrimental.
2) Mind Blank does offer double duty versus Illithids since MR stops Psionics. Like Todrael mentioned not many mobiles currently cast this spell, but as the zones get updated since mobiles can no be set as enchanters, it will become more and more prevalent. Also this spell can be cast on others, so any group of mobiles that have an enchanter in their mists will have the spell on them. One of my ways of attempting to get past MR is to use mindblast instead of the truly more damaging skills and since Mind Blank stops mindblast that is where the double duty is coming more into existence.
3) Well this has always been a problem. Trying to balance damage for this class in comparison to all the other damage classes has been an interesting road. From my understanding most of the problems have been due to coding differences between Spell damage and Psionic damage. With the many tweaks that have been going on since the beginning of Soj3 the damage for each of the skills has gone both up and down sporadically. Miax is of course right, Ultrablast at one point was doing right around 1k damage, up and down. Now most recently it’s back down to where it was at the beginning of Soj3, doing about 300-700 damage. Considering that it is the illithids only big area damage skill I believe it could be doing more around where it was, 1k range. Mindblast has had an increase in damage as far as I can tell. Project force which is a higher level skill and has more of a delay but currently doesn’t seem to do as much as mindblast does. Project force gets used more often at the moment however because in long fights it’s cheaper and therefore more efficient use of PSP. Detonate is the 4th and hardly ever used damage skill for illithids and is very limited in its use. Detonates damage is low as well and could probably use something more and should be taken into consideration its strong limitations. DeathField is the low level area damage skill. Can not say much about it since I do not play with it enough to make a good judgment.
I hope this helps you see and understand the need for psionics to be looked over and that this information can help you make any changes you feel are necessary. My current motivation for attempting Tiamat as Lazzraxxuum is low. Only reason I would consider going at the moment is as a moral leader because I would not be doing much of anything else. All my class has skills for is damage.
Lazz
Hi
Thanks for the interest in psi's, we are as you are well aware the target of a vast con-
spiracy to keep the evil man down.
1. psi effects against mobs aren't magic
so I think this is basically a no brainer, mr should have no effect against psi's skills.
2. Im a little confused here on mindblank.
When it was intoduced I thought it was going to be a help to goodies fighting no bash psi mobs ala myth drannor, if they could ever find the quest and do it. Because evils were going to have 'tower of iron will' working correctly ie, at high levels the whole group would be protected somewhat from psi skills.
Well tower doesnt work like it should at high levels, and the help files on mindblank seem to indicate it should not work on ultrabast or project force because they dont attack the mind, it should only work on mindblast and synapitc static which is a useless skill anyways. So Im confused.
It seems to be really a better major globe,
and it shouldn't work on ultrablast or project force, I dont even know if it does
since im not familiar enuf with the message one work get that it has blocked
your skill.
3. The reduction in damage is a matter for how you see the role of psi's. As everyone
knows psi's came in when evils had no other
area damage class or for that matter any class that could gate or globe. As other races came in they lost globe. As damage classes came in their psi damage was downgraded in favor of shaman, invoker,
and evil raced liches. The nature of an illithid however does not lend itself to being a beast of burden, (taxicab).
So where should their damage output be in the scheme of things? Hard to say, but I
think more than my recent experiences
Ezzallixxell
Thanks for the interest in psi's, we are as you are well aware the target of a vast con-
spiracy to keep the evil man down.
1. psi effects against mobs aren't magic
so I think this is basically a no brainer, mr should have no effect against psi's skills.
2. Im a little confused here on mindblank.
When it was intoduced I thought it was going to be a help to goodies fighting no bash psi mobs ala myth drannor, if they could ever find the quest and do it. Because evils were going to have 'tower of iron will' working correctly ie, at high levels the whole group would be protected somewhat from psi skills.
Well tower doesnt work like it should at high levels, and the help files on mindblank seem to indicate it should not work on ultrabast or project force because they dont attack the mind, it should only work on mindblast and synapitc static which is a useless skill anyways. So Im confused.
It seems to be really a better major globe,
and it shouldn't work on ultrablast or project force, I dont even know if it does
since im not familiar enuf with the message one work get that it has blocked
your skill.
3. The reduction in damage is a matter for how you see the role of psi's. As everyone
knows psi's came in when evils had no other
area damage class or for that matter any class that could gate or globe. As other races came in they lost globe. As damage classes came in their psi damage was downgraded in favor of shaman, invoker,
and evil raced liches. The nature of an illithid however does not lend itself to being a beast of burden, (taxicab).
So where should their damage output be in the scheme of things? Hard to say, but I
think more than my recent experiences
Ezzallixxell
I'm only lvl 23, but as one of the dwindling race of Illithids I thought I'd lay out things as I see them.
I think the main question here is where do Illithids fit in anymore? What's our niche?
We have three main types of skills really, psionic abilities on/for ourselves, transportation, and offensive psionic abilities.
Of the first there are many, but since we are the weakest race/class in the game physically (slightly more even than invokers), they don't exactly make or break us.
Of the second, well, transportation obviously is very helpful since the evils have no moonwell.
Lastly we have the offensive abilites. This is where the main focus of this debate is it seems since that is our best area. We really only have 2 single target abilities and 2 area ones (I'm not even going to count detonate since it is useful on very little of the mob population).
Is our damage supposed to be comparable to invokers? Is it now? My invoker friend tells me that invokers are and should be better at offense than psionicists. That doesn't leave Illithids with a whole lot to offer. On the plus side for Illithids I guess we have the fact that we don't have to mem really, maybe that's what 'evens the score?' *shrug*
Like I said I have little experience to back anything up so I'm just going to leave it at that.
I think the main question here is where do Illithids fit in anymore? What's our niche?
We have three main types of skills really, psionic abilities on/for ourselves, transportation, and offensive psionic abilities.
Of the first there are many, but since we are the weakest race/class in the game physically (slightly more even than invokers), they don't exactly make or break us.
Of the second, well, transportation obviously is very helpful since the evils have no moonwell.
Lastly we have the offensive abilites. This is where the main focus of this debate is it seems since that is our best area. We really only have 2 single target abilities and 2 area ones (I'm not even going to count detonate since it is useful on very little of the mob population).
Is our damage supposed to be comparable to invokers? Is it now? My invoker friend tells me that invokers are and should be better at offense than psionicists. That doesn't leave Illithids with a whole lot to offer. On the plus side for Illithids I guess we have the fact that we don't have to mem really, maybe that's what 'evens the score?' *shrug*
Like I said I have little experience to back anything up so I'm just going to leave it at that.
-
Axxsinlazzam
- Sojourner
- Posts: 63
- Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: chicago,Il
Hi all this is Axxsinlazzam.
I have only reached 44th level and >< that close to 45th.
So i cant comment on ultrablast.
I used to play a squid prewipe, and my main character this wipe has been a squid.
<DISCLAMIER...That means i can only comment on mid lvl squid skills.>
But the main problem with squids is that with the changes
that have been made to the damage output, Deathfield, Projectforce to name two,
and the no domination of caster mobs,
not having the ability to dominate some mobs and take them outta the zone you
dominated them in without rifting them.
There are a few skills that are not even worth using cause they dont work or not worth using.
for example... canabilize,synaptic static ect..
I have seen the role of a Illithid of one who has the ability to make pets (dominate)
to do secondary damage (compared to a invoker)
a taxi cab (shift and rift) and one to negate the harmfull rays of the sun (Globe of darkness).
Our skill have been nerfed to where its now hopeless to think you have a chance to solo with your pets and assist them with your damage ability.
your main skill to do damage all leave a LOT to be desired.
and the rest of your skills to help can only help you and not anyone in your group.
With the exception of battletrance, Tower, Globe of Darkness, Shift and Rift.
Btrance i have only been on the receiving end on and have nothing bad to report about that.
Tower... My skill is only 72 so i cant affect others in the party with this skill yet.
Globe of darkness, GREAT skill.
Shift...Sigh, Shift bi*ch. I have no problem with shifting people around
clerics get bugged for resses, druids..wells, and so on.
Rift... Other classes can make portals.
To help your group in damage you have Ultra, Deathfield,Pforce, mindblast and detonate.
Ultra used to be on par with inferno i hear.
Deathfield = cloud.
Pforce = 2 mind blast + a chance to bash and a good chance to really
hurt the tank if you Pforce bash before the tank does. (The tank will miss his/her bash
and will be on the ground, taking more damage from a missed bash.)
Mindblast = mid lvl invoker damage spell + chance to stun. (Costly in psp to use compared to Pforce)
Detonate = Well i dont know what invoker spell is equal to this skill.
This skill is of limited use anyway.
Dominate = Necro, Shaman. Our pets will not be as strong but we have a unlimited supply of mobs to dominate.
Massdominate = same as Dominate.
I'm not posting here to cry about the class.
Hell, its my FAVORITE class and i love everything about it.
There are a few hidden bonuses to some of the skills that i CANT go into.
IMHO this class is nothing than a transporter and Globe of darkness for the evil side.
Before the nerfs the class was extremly hard in the beginning, (without twinking, and pleveling)
and with the skills you gained leveling up to 15th lvl mainly solo in IX
it made you use what skills you had to the max effect.
I.e dominating a Duergar gardner in IX, equip him/her with decent equipment that you could solo and you have a tank for
Small Myconids in GH.
Do the same with Ogre slaves in IX and do Large Myconids.
Now the class has been FORCED to depend on others for tanking (Why do we need dominate now).
You are forced on using invokers for damage because our damage has been nerfed so badly.
Please excuse me if this message rambles on and on but i'm drinking and trying to remember some of the things about this class
that bothered me.
In closing i just want to say...
I dont want Illithids to be Uber powerful.
I loved it when i had a challenge to learn how to use my skills to solo and to help
a group out in the best way i could.
But with fewer skills to use and some of those skills being nerfed or not usable
any nerf to the skills we had would hurt more than it would hurt another class.
If ya didnt like this post..Oh well..I cant please everyone.
The Axx
I have only reached 44th level and >< that close to 45th.
So i cant comment on ultrablast.
I used to play a squid prewipe, and my main character this wipe has been a squid.
<DISCLAMIER...That means i can only comment on mid lvl squid skills.>
But the main problem with squids is that with the changes
that have been made to the damage output, Deathfield, Projectforce to name two,
and the no domination of caster mobs,
not having the ability to dominate some mobs and take them outta the zone you
dominated them in without rifting them.
There are a few skills that are not even worth using cause they dont work or not worth using.
for example... canabilize,synaptic static ect..
I have seen the role of a Illithid of one who has the ability to make pets (dominate)
to do secondary damage (compared to a invoker)
a taxi cab (shift and rift) and one to negate the harmfull rays of the sun (Globe of darkness).
Our skill have been nerfed to where its now hopeless to think you have a chance to solo with your pets and assist them with your damage ability.
your main skill to do damage all leave a LOT to be desired.
and the rest of your skills to help can only help you and not anyone in your group.
With the exception of battletrance, Tower, Globe of Darkness, Shift and Rift.
Btrance i have only been on the receiving end on and have nothing bad to report about that.
Tower... My skill is only 72 so i cant affect others in the party with this skill yet.
Globe of darkness, GREAT skill.
Shift...Sigh, Shift bi*ch. I have no problem with shifting people around
clerics get bugged for resses, druids..wells, and so on.
Rift... Other classes can make portals.
To help your group in damage you have Ultra, Deathfield,Pforce, mindblast and detonate.
Ultra used to be on par with inferno i hear.
Deathfield = cloud.
Pforce = 2 mind blast + a chance to bash and a good chance to really
hurt the tank if you Pforce bash before the tank does. (The tank will miss his/her bash
and will be on the ground, taking more damage from a missed bash.)
Mindblast = mid lvl invoker damage spell + chance to stun. (Costly in psp to use compared to Pforce)
Detonate = Well i dont know what invoker spell is equal to this skill.
This skill is of limited use anyway.
Dominate = Necro, Shaman. Our pets will not be as strong but we have a unlimited supply of mobs to dominate.
Massdominate = same as Dominate.
I'm not posting here to cry about the class.
Hell, its my FAVORITE class and i love everything about it.
There are a few hidden bonuses to some of the skills that i CANT go into.
IMHO this class is nothing than a transporter and Globe of darkness for the evil side.
Before the nerfs the class was extremly hard in the beginning, (without twinking, and pleveling)
and with the skills you gained leveling up to 15th lvl mainly solo in IX
it made you use what skills you had to the max effect.
I.e dominating a Duergar gardner in IX, equip him/her with decent equipment that you could solo and you have a tank for
Small Myconids in GH.
Do the same with Ogre slaves in IX and do Large Myconids.
Now the class has been FORCED to depend on others for tanking (Why do we need dominate now).
You are forced on using invokers for damage because our damage has been nerfed so badly.
Please excuse me if this message rambles on and on but i'm drinking and trying to remember some of the things about this class
that bothered me.
In closing i just want to say...
I dont want Illithids to be Uber powerful.
I loved it when i had a challenge to learn how to use my skills to solo and to help
a group out in the best way i could.
But with fewer skills to use and some of those skills being nerfed or not usable
any nerf to the skills we had would hurt more than it would hurt another class.
If ya didnt like this post..Oh well..I cant please everyone.
The Axx
-
Galok Icewolf
- Sojourner
- Posts: 510
- Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
I do not play a squid. I can say at least this wipe, I have seen alot of them in action. So I will make my general observations and add my 2 cents of input, in hoping that it will help.
Psi's do not have specialation skill. I don't know how much this is a detriment to them, or if it is at all, but I do know that it seems to help every other class alot.
Psi's have the least amount of hitpoints in the game, consistantely able to get 1-2 hps a level for 1-25.
Max_power does nothing, since they are at their max, so getting more power (if it does anything for them) doesn't actually do anything for them.
They provide the same service to the group, that a invoker does, but, at a lesser rate. Assuming they (in my mind) are supposed to be at least partially a counter-part for druids, they do little of what a druid can do.
The only good thing about psi's is ultrablast dosen't conflict, but that is never really a issue, because I think I've had 2 psi's in a group once or twice.
Possible Fixes:
It's quite obvious that Psi's roll is to be as a nuker with a couple add on abilites much like a invoker. If you are planning to stay this course, then this is what I'd like to see possibly;
Damage on project force upped by about 50, so that its a usuable direct nuke that does damage.
Synaptic static does very little, you have to use it so many times by time its effective that the battle is over. I suggest either making it more effective per use (making it one time use on a mob) or adding damage to the affect (e.g. sorta like suffocate and frost fell and sanblast have side effects)
Make it so when globe of darkness is up, that people can follow the leader without a problem, without having to follow a psi, a room behind.
Make tower of iron well extend some of its protection over group members after getting 46th level (or a certain level in the skill).
Make stasis field a 1 person target, but make it actually regenerate the hps of the person fast, rather then the whole group, healing 4 every 20 seconds or so.
Make Ultrablast have a ripple affect, 1 round after it first goes off dealing 1/2 as much damage with a chance (small) to bash bashable mobs in the room.
Make MR and Psionic resistance a seperate stat (god thats gonna suck going through all the mobs) but some mobs should have high psi resistance and crap for MR and vice versa.
These are my ideas on them, but this is solely off of watching them in action alot. Maybe I am way off, but I think i'm pretty close.
Psi's do not have specialation skill. I don't know how much this is a detriment to them, or if it is at all, but I do know that it seems to help every other class alot.
Psi's have the least amount of hitpoints in the game, consistantely able to get 1-2 hps a level for 1-25.
Max_power does nothing, since they are at their max, so getting more power (if it does anything for them) doesn't actually do anything for them.
They provide the same service to the group, that a invoker does, but, at a lesser rate. Assuming they (in my mind) are supposed to be at least partially a counter-part for druids, they do little of what a druid can do.
The only good thing about psi's is ultrablast dosen't conflict, but that is never really a issue, because I think I've had 2 psi's in a group once or twice.
Possible Fixes:
It's quite obvious that Psi's roll is to be as a nuker with a couple add on abilites much like a invoker. If you are planning to stay this course, then this is what I'd like to see possibly;
Damage on project force upped by about 50, so that its a usuable direct nuke that does damage.
Synaptic static does very little, you have to use it so many times by time its effective that the battle is over. I suggest either making it more effective per use (making it one time use on a mob) or adding damage to the affect (e.g. sorta like suffocate and frost fell and sanblast have side effects)
Make it so when globe of darkness is up, that people can follow the leader without a problem, without having to follow a psi, a room behind.
Make tower of iron well extend some of its protection over group members after getting 46th level (or a certain level in the skill).
Make stasis field a 1 person target, but make it actually regenerate the hps of the person fast, rather then the whole group, healing 4 every 20 seconds or so.
Make Ultrablast have a ripple affect, 1 round after it first goes off dealing 1/2 as much damage with a chance (small) to bash bashable mobs in the room.
Make MR and Psionic resistance a seperate stat (god thats gonna suck going through all the mobs) but some mobs should have high psi resistance and crap for MR and vice versa.
These are my ideas on them, but this is solely off of watching them in action alot. Maybe I am way off, but I think i'm pretty close.
-
kiryan
- Sojourner
- Posts: 7275
- Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
- Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
- Contact:
squids will always have a place in group for three reasons, shift/rift, globe of darkness, good single/area damage, tag ability. They at the moment have 2 niches that they excel at on the evil side. transportation and allowing ultras to zone in daylight. They also have couple other notable group utility skills like battle trance (melee hit/dam buff) and that super slow group healing thing. They do have the lowest hps of any race/class and mage eq restricts however, I think its a pretty balanced class, but perhaps on the low end of balance.
Where I think they need some adjustment is in damage ability. I definitely agree pf shouldnt be affected by MR. if its going to be affected by MR it needs to do more damage. its single target, does good damage (3/4 of rogue melee is my guess over the course of a battle) doesnt bash anything meaningful anymore, and cant be replenished as fast as spells most of the time. One interesting thing about it is that you can melee while in lag where as traditional casters do not (but squids have mage eq restricts so thats pretty meaningless).
im not sure what to do with UB. As far as i know its not affected by feedback or blastradius. lower damage seems balanced(perhaps its too low atm im not sure). if you buff the dam significantly, then id expect to see area dam control effects placed on it. One squid is not unbalancing even with upgrades, 3 squids with unresistable non feedback non blastradius area dam could be crazy... just like one invoker is strong but 3 infernos going off a round is sick and wrong. The choice that needs to be made here is do squids want to be more individually powerful in area dam or amazing in numbers.
Squid is a pretty unique class, id rather not see them start looking more like invokers =(.
[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 04-02-2002).]
Where I think they need some adjustment is in damage ability. I definitely agree pf shouldnt be affected by MR. if its going to be affected by MR it needs to do more damage. its single target, does good damage (3/4 of rogue melee is my guess over the course of a battle) doesnt bash anything meaningful anymore, and cant be replenished as fast as spells most of the time. One interesting thing about it is that you can melee while in lag where as traditional casters do not (but squids have mage eq restricts so thats pretty meaningless).
im not sure what to do with UB. As far as i know its not affected by feedback or blastradius. lower damage seems balanced(perhaps its too low atm im not sure). if you buff the dam significantly, then id expect to see area dam control effects placed on it. One squid is not unbalancing even with upgrades, 3 squids with unresistable non feedback non blastradius area dam could be crazy... just like one invoker is strong but 3 infernos going off a round is sick and wrong. The choice that needs to be made here is do squids want to be more individually powerful in area dam or amazing in numbers.
Squid is a pretty unique class, id rather not see them start looking more like invokers =(.
[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 04-02-2002).]
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mrizzalazzrazzi
- Sojourner
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Malaysia
Just gonna be direct to the point. Dont want to see like i'm whining or anything, but this is the first time i post to bbs and its concern about squid which the only char i have now.
1) Just strange to see psi damage blocked by MR since psi attack is psi/mental abilities not magic. This will effect with the second issue.
2) More enchanters mobs will be in and if the mobs have Mind Blank, psi damage will be block by it plus with the MR on psi attack, psi damage will be useless. Squid will be useless!
3)Damage dealing with psi is incomparable with vokers or liches. Only can depends on UB for damage but then UB is area skill. UB takes about 80psp, which is very costly as to what icenacir has posted. Even though i can shift back to dk for food, sometimes i cant since some rooms are !tele. So i need to meditate. Even with meditate skill is master, it will take some time to charge up back my psp. So, to prevent drainage of psp, sometimes i use DF, but then DF is not very high in damage compared to UB. Some of the highlight on UB and DF has been brought up by icenacir in his last post. That when i need to area. If i need to target, I will need to use pforce. But again, pforce sometimes only effect material mobs. So immaterial mobs such as ghost i need to use mindblast or detonate depends on the nature of the mobs. If i dont think detonate/mindblast has very high damage compare to UB.
Other issues
1) Some of the squid skills are not working properly, just wanna mention it here. Those skills are tower of iron will - ppl in group not affected, synaptic stasis - used on casting mobs, but no affect, even tho it says successful
Not forgetting useless skill like canibalize. I did not use it to regain some psp back. Better use meditate rather than it uses my moves. Since squid gets very low in moves so it is not practical.
stasis field is okay..but the healing factor seems didnt work...it seems like my hps regen like the same with or without the stasis field.
I agree on kiryan on damage dealt, if squid damage is not control very wisely. On the damage dealt for squid, i put it on the hand of god decision. Dont want to see squid be another vokers, make it more niche class to interest ppl like me to play more..:P
Other than that,...hrmm..cant think of other stuff on squid...basically my concern are the same to axxsinlazzam's concern
Thank you.
1) Just strange to see psi damage blocked by MR since psi attack is psi/mental abilities not magic. This will effect with the second issue.
2) More enchanters mobs will be in and if the mobs have Mind Blank, psi damage will be block by it plus with the MR on psi attack, psi damage will be useless. Squid will be useless!
3)Damage dealing with psi is incomparable with vokers or liches. Only can depends on UB for damage but then UB is area skill. UB takes about 80psp, which is very costly as to what icenacir has posted. Even though i can shift back to dk for food, sometimes i cant since some rooms are !tele. So i need to meditate. Even with meditate skill is master, it will take some time to charge up back my psp. So, to prevent drainage of psp, sometimes i use DF, but then DF is not very high in damage compared to UB. Some of the highlight on UB and DF has been brought up by icenacir in his last post. That when i need to area. If i need to target, I will need to use pforce. But again, pforce sometimes only effect material mobs. So immaterial mobs such as ghost i need to use mindblast or detonate depends on the nature of the mobs. If i dont think detonate/mindblast has very high damage compare to UB.
Other issues
1) Some of the squid skills are not working properly, just wanna mention it here. Those skills are tower of iron will - ppl in group not affected, synaptic stasis - used on casting mobs, but no affect, even tho it says successful
Not forgetting useless skill like canibalize. I did not use it to regain some psp back. Better use meditate rather than it uses my moves. Since squid gets very low in moves so it is not practical.
stasis field is okay..but the healing factor seems didnt work...it seems like my hps regen like the same with or without the stasis field.
I agree on kiryan on damage dealt, if squid damage is not control very wisely. On the damage dealt for squid, i put it on the hand of god decision. Dont want to see squid be another vokers, make it more niche class to interest ppl like me to play more..:P
Other than that,...hrmm..cant think of other stuff on squid...basically my concern are the same to axxsinlazzam's concern
Thank you.
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Axxsinlazzam
- Sojourner
- Posts: 63
- Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: chicago,Il
When I first started playing Illithids there were not a lot of people playing them.
I checked out thier skills and said WOW a challange.
I had fun playing hit and flee, the same as I did with a mage.
When i found about buying slaves and having them tank...I was in heaven.
To actually have a mob tank for you and you had spells that actually
helped the mob... i.e combatmind.
I was like a conjie, or a necro.
later on when i was higher level i had abilities to breath water, exist on the planes of fire and smoke. (Body control)
My mindblast damage went up as my level increased.
Hell all my damaging spells went up as my % in each skill went up.
Our role on the evil side has been like a second class invoker.
That has never been a problem, if i wanted to do damage like a invoker i would have made a invoker.
But with Magic resistance and when mind blank comes in WOOHOO our damge will be nerfed to hell and back.
I dont want to be a PURE damaging class.
I want a class where out limited skills will actually work and I will have to think seriously about how to use them to the best effect in a group.
Right now all we can do is Pforce and if we mess up we screw up the tank and make the cleric work harder.
Deathfield, damage has been nerfed to where its just better to Pforce.
Pforce has a 2 round lag.
When i would zone and have to damage the mob and flee i would not use Pforce, when i did i died.
I died and died until i learned to use mindblast.
mindblast is like a mage using cone of cold or fireball.
I would like to see Illithds skills being more usefull to a group, like why not using
combatmind on a player, or the ability to project our skills on another person ie...
Axxsinlazzan projects the ability to control your body. Body control.
The Axx.
I checked out thier skills and said WOW a challange.
I had fun playing hit and flee, the same as I did with a mage.
When i found about buying slaves and having them tank...I was in heaven.
To actually have a mob tank for you and you had spells that actually
helped the mob... i.e combatmind.
I was like a conjie, or a necro.
later on when i was higher level i had abilities to breath water, exist on the planes of fire and smoke. (Body control)
My mindblast damage went up as my level increased.
Hell all my damaging spells went up as my % in each skill went up.
Our role on the evil side has been like a second class invoker.
That has never been a problem, if i wanted to do damage like a invoker i would have made a invoker.
But with Magic resistance and when mind blank comes in WOOHOO our damge will be nerfed to hell and back.
I dont want to be a PURE damaging class.
I want a class where out limited skills will actually work and I will have to think seriously about how to use them to the best effect in a group.
Right now all we can do is Pforce and if we mess up we screw up the tank and make the cleric work harder.
Deathfield, damage has been nerfed to where its just better to Pforce.
Pforce has a 2 round lag.
When i would zone and have to damage the mob and flee i would not use Pforce, when i did i died.
I died and died until i learned to use mindblast.
mindblast is like a mage using cone of cold or fireball.
I would like to see Illithds skills being more usefull to a group, like why not using
combatmind on a player, or the ability to project our skills on another person ie...
Axxsinlazzan projects the ability to control your body. Body control.
The Axx.
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Guest
I've read through the feedback and spoken to some of the staff about this, though two major people I need to speak to about this (Shevarash and D2) have been afk with RL, so I don't have a consensus yet as to what we need to do.
I do know this, the Illithid population is down, and those that play don't have many good things to say about the class. So something needs to be done, and it's our job to figure out what it is.
To weigh in on this (now that I have some facts), I personally think that MR should have NOTHING to do with Psionic power. If the consensus ends up being that we still need to limit psionic ability with something like MR, then we'll add PR (Psionic Resistance) factor to Mobs that runs on a different scale (perhaps based on Mob intelligence). Another solution may be to remove the MR dependency on Psi altogether and see if that juices up the class enough, I don't know.
Rangers and Rogues, which are categorized as the "hitter" melee hitter classes, are balanced together from a very High level. We want their damage to be equivalent, nothing else has to be similar. If the Psi niche is to be a caster damage class, then Invokers and Illithids should also be simiarly balanced so that both have the same "Total Damage Output", and the uniqueness of their spells and skills will make sure they are never clones of one another (just as rangers and rogues are not at all clones). This makes both Inv and Psi equals, which is a MUCH better position in terms of balance and Player choice, then we have today.. If they were equal, and you like playing Powerful damage-caster classes, you would have an equal choice from unique classes to choose from. This also is just an idea, my impression of things at this point.
We as the staff still have to meet and discuss the issues at hand before we can present a solution that we all can live with. We'll let you know something soon I hope.
Miax
[This message has been edited by Miax (edited 04-02-2002).]
I do know this, the Illithid population is down, and those that play don't have many good things to say about the class. So something needs to be done, and it's our job to figure out what it is.
To weigh in on this (now that I have some facts), I personally think that MR should have NOTHING to do with Psionic power. If the consensus ends up being that we still need to limit psionic ability with something like MR, then we'll add PR (Psionic Resistance) factor to Mobs that runs on a different scale (perhaps based on Mob intelligence). Another solution may be to remove the MR dependency on Psi altogether and see if that juices up the class enough, I don't know.
Rangers and Rogues, which are categorized as the "hitter" melee hitter classes, are balanced together from a very High level. We want their damage to be equivalent, nothing else has to be similar. If the Psi niche is to be a caster damage class, then Invokers and Illithids should also be simiarly balanced so that both have the same "Total Damage Output", and the uniqueness of their spells and skills will make sure they are never clones of one another (just as rangers and rogues are not at all clones). This makes both Inv and Psi equals, which is a MUCH better position in terms of balance and Player choice, then we have today.. If they were equal, and you like playing Powerful damage-caster classes, you would have an equal choice from unique classes to choose from. This also is just an idea, my impression of things at this point.
We as the staff still have to meet and discuss the issues at hand before we can present a solution that we all can live with. We'll let you know something soon I hope.
Miax
[This message has been edited by Miax (edited 04-02-2002).]
I would like to suggest something.
I don't think scalable PR is the solution to the problem... rather, some mobs do not have intelligence (I'm thinking zombies), and should be immune to direct mind attack. That's OK, they should be vulnerable to detonate, and the indirect attacks.
Hm. This, of course, gets into the issue of whether or not said other attacks should involve PR. I begin to see that this is a very tangled problem.
For "realism," I would suggest that psi skills and attacks be categorized into those that affect others' minds, and those that affect reality.
Those that are telepathic should go right through MR. Those that are physical... is a blast of force different from a force missile? I guess not. I can see real room for waffling on that issue, however.
From a playability angle, squids may be the dark counterpart to druids. Transportation, small group effects, and damage. I've talked to some squids, and mostly they told me how it would be much cooler if they had some way to stone their tank... thus helping with the "jack of all trades" aspect.
Personally, I rolled a squid but stopped playing. It was just the same old routine, leveling up solo. I would suggest allowing them to dominate a wider variety of pets, including lowlevel casters, but that might open a hail of criticism.
Perhaps psis might even be split into two different classes, or two different specialization types? If you fear giving them stone or other such effects will give them too much solo power, there could be defensive/offensive specialists along the lines of mages.
One random thought I did have was, if Psis are the masters of the mind, why can they not project illusions?
Ah well, good luck!
I don't think scalable PR is the solution to the problem... rather, some mobs do not have intelligence (I'm thinking zombies), and should be immune to direct mind attack. That's OK, they should be vulnerable to detonate, and the indirect attacks.
Hm. This, of course, gets into the issue of whether or not said other attacks should involve PR. I begin to see that this is a very tangled problem.
For "realism," I would suggest that psi skills and attacks be categorized into those that affect others' minds, and those that affect reality.
Those that are telepathic should go right through MR. Those that are physical... is a blast of force different from a force missile? I guess not. I can see real room for waffling on that issue, however.
From a playability angle, squids may be the dark counterpart to druids. Transportation, small group effects, and damage. I've talked to some squids, and mostly they told me how it would be much cooler if they had some way to stone their tank... thus helping with the "jack of all trades" aspect.
Personally, I rolled a squid but stopped playing. It was just the same old routine, leveling up solo. I would suggest allowing them to dominate a wider variety of pets, including lowlevel casters, but that might open a hail of criticism.
Perhaps psis might even be split into two different classes, or two different specialization types? If you fear giving them stone or other such effects will give them too much solo power, there could be defensive/offensive specialists along the lines of mages.
One random thought I did have was, if Psis are the masters of the mind, why can they not project illusions?
Ah well, good luck!
I agree that they should be compareable to invokers in damage. They have less hitpoints than invokers but have some pretty neats skills to compensate (shift). The extra nifty skills makes me think that they should have perhaps alittle less damage capability of an invoker, since most of a mages/squids HP comes from equipment anyhow.
I think at the moment the mobs that have been selected for magic resistance are ones that cuold be similarly less effected by psionic attacks in this fantasy world. I imagine an ancient dragon doing the jabba the hut laugh at a squids 'jedi mind tricks'. While a zombie's mind... well they don't have one so it is going to be hard to nuke it. If no psi-resistance existed and psi did as much damage as invokers, then for zones like CC and any dragons psi would be far superior.
Definately if no-one is playing them they need some tasy candy added to their arsenal, but they definately don't need to be the same as invokers.
I think at the moment the mobs that have been selected for magic resistance are ones that cuold be similarly less effected by psionic attacks in this fantasy world. I imagine an ancient dragon doing the jabba the hut laugh at a squids 'jedi mind tricks'. While a zombie's mind... well they don't have one so it is going to be hard to nuke it. If no psi-resistance existed and psi did as much damage as invokers, then for zones like CC and any dragons psi would be far superior.
Definately if no-one is playing them they need some tasy candy added to their arsenal, but they definately don't need to be the same as invokers.
"I don't think scalable PR is the solution to the problem... rather, some mobs do not have intelligence (I'm thinking zombies), and should be immune to direct mind attack. That's OK, they should be vulnerable to detonate, and the indirect attacks."
Many, if not most, of the "attack" psionics don't directly attack the mind. They and most psionics in general simply bend reality to create an effect desired by the psion by drawing on their inner nexus of energy. This can range from doing things like creating waves of concussive force or causing the air to spontaneously combust into flames to growing energy draining talons or altering body structure to allow a weapon to be permanently grafted to an arm. To that end, it's not really different from magic in most cases, which bends reality to create an effect desired by the caster by drawing on the latent power in material spell components, particular gestures, and words of power. Psionics are subjected to magic resistance in the Forgotten Realms in D&D since there aren't enough users of psionics to have made it evolve from the other methods of bending reality. However, since some of the attack methods of psionics affect the space around the target and never touch the target themselves, at least making some powers ignore MR is reasonable from a balance and stylistic standpoint. Something like deathfield would be blocked, but project force wouldn't (yeah, I know PF is a semi-bad example of an offensive ability but I can't look through the help file for an exact description of powers atm to comment).
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"Maybe I should stop and ask for directions . . ."
[This message has been edited by Treladian (edited 04-04-2002).]
Many, if not most, of the "attack" psionics don't directly attack the mind. They and most psionics in general simply bend reality to create an effect desired by the psion by drawing on their inner nexus of energy. This can range from doing things like creating waves of concussive force or causing the air to spontaneously combust into flames to growing energy draining talons or altering body structure to allow a weapon to be permanently grafted to an arm. To that end, it's not really different from magic in most cases, which bends reality to create an effect desired by the caster by drawing on the latent power in material spell components, particular gestures, and words of power. Psionics are subjected to magic resistance in the Forgotten Realms in D&D since there aren't enough users of psionics to have made it evolve from the other methods of bending reality. However, since some of the attack methods of psionics affect the space around the target and never touch the target themselves, at least making some powers ignore MR is reasonable from a balance and stylistic standpoint. Something like deathfield would be blocked, but project force wouldn't (yeah, I know PF is a semi-bad example of an offensive ability but I can't look through the help file for an exact description of powers atm to comment).
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"Maybe I should stop and ask for directions . . ."
[This message has been edited by Treladian (edited 04-04-2002).]
Agreed, Treladian. Also, when two psions meet in combat, they often fight in mind duals which play out like games of rock paper scissors, modified by the power level. Then again, 3rd edition has a much more intuitive saving throw system than 2nd edition, which Toril is based upon. When an illithid slams a psychokinetic force front into you, what do you make the save with? Is it save versus rod? Save versus breath? Save versus paralysis? Save versus spell? None of these things seem to cover it. I'd be interested in hearing what saving throws help you defend yourself against psionics and how it worked in 2nd edition and Toril, likewise.
Yayaril
Yayaril
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Guest
Squids,
I've had my discussions with Diinkarazan and the other gods regarding Psi powers. We are in agreement that some of the afore mentioned problems need to be fixed, and we have some preliminary ideas on how we're going to address the current issues. I won't discuss the details yet until we have consensus among the staff on the specifics of the changes, but I can tell you that they are Upgrades and not Downgrades.
Stay tuned, better days are coming..
Kris
I've had my discussions with Diinkarazan and the other gods regarding Psi powers. We are in agreement that some of the afore mentioned problems need to be fixed, and we have some preliminary ideas on how we're going to address the current issues. I won't discuss the details yet until we have consensus among the staff on the specifics of the changes, but I can tell you that they are Upgrades and not Downgrades.
Stay tuned, better days are coming..
Kris
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Axxsinlazzam
- Sojourner
- Posts: 63
- Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: chicago,Il
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Guest
well... Psionic attacks should definately be resisted based on intelligence and level together I suppose. lose MR all together. that said, don't increase and of the dd attacks, but allow domination of any mob that can't resist. that makes sense, right? Of course you won't be able to dominate a high level caster... then again not all mages are intelligent.
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