read and respond, soj3 no different

[Wobb]

In all of its differences, sojourn 3 has the same old problems previous incarnations had.

I keep reading these posts about people who stop playing, people quitting over frustration/schedule. (I took a good break myself)

Since the opening of the mud I've seen and heard the following:

Admins are striving to balance the game by making each class more necessary through a fine system of checks/balances. The whole point of this incarnation of sojourn was to create a game that would be -- long lasting "No more pwipes!" etc...

Here we are what, almost a year into it and everyone has gotten everything (or close enough to make high levels stop playing). Through the fine system of checks and balances and group number restrictions and spell changes, we have wound up with a mud that spreads the playerbase like butter across the toast of boredom. (haha ok that sounded hilarious to me but i'm crazy)

Have I surpassed the mud or has it surpassed me? Have I changed as a player because I've "done" everything or has the mud changed underneath me and I long for the old days of a sorc who could both stone and do damage so I don't need a freaking million different classes to group?

And what of the solo game? Hello? I don't expect someone to be able to solo jot but, I can't solo ANYTHING my level, certainly not my race (troll...mob hp regen is WHACK!).

So, after all this rambling, here is my question: what exactly is the point of this game? Perhaps after all these years I never stopped to examine that question until now? Sure I know it's to have fun and hack and slash and group and rescue/heal/stone (blur/displace/scale :P)
-- in the nick of time! Well, that lasted a little while.

I guess what I'd like to know from others is how do they see this incarnation of sojourn different (especially with the "no pwipe" outlook) from others in terms of long-term playability? Maybe I just need to roll up a new character? Find another mud? After reading this or those of you that know me, what do you think?

This isn't a flame btw to anyone, I have no idea how admins would ever achieve balance I just think the genre of game (mud) in general cannot be balanced, but should come to a level of balance from the input of its players (all of them, not just the hardcore 30+ hrs a week ones)

Wobb

[Ilshadrial]

I see your point Wobb...

There are no true spanks anymore, CRing has gotten way too easy, you don't even have to ask another group for help after you get mega spanked now.

Players are doing way more damage than they have ever done in every incarnation of the game. Yet the mobs have not truely gotten any stronger. Having no fail bash makes the game weaker with the mass damage output now.

Tiamat has fallen already 2X, and I am sad to say, that shows a lot of dissapointment in the game. Tiamat was never killed on SOJ2 and people were just as stacked on Soj2 as they are now, except the number of PROCING weapons that BLIND mobs, protective spells, higher damage dice on weapons, ect has gotten way out of hand, and has extremely unbalanced things in the way of combat vs. a mob.

After reviewing some Tiamat logs, I think it is safe to say, there will never be a FAILED attempt on her, not like in the past, where all hope was lost when she was just too powerful for the group who was attempting her. Those are the day of the past.

I am sure she will die weekly soon.

I won't even touch guilds, because the guilds of SOJOURN3 is nothing more than other guilds on other muds. I long for Mystra's return, which will never come to be.

Ilshad

[This message has been edited by Ilshadrial (edited 04-03-2002).]

[cherzra]

I've done a lot, but I'm still around... if the mud wiped I would probably say "screw it, bye bye". I know I said that last time, but hey this time I just may do it. This game DOES take years, unless you play 8 hours a day 7 days a week. How many people have scorpion earrings, netherils, ymir cloaks? Sure everyone guilded high level has a 'good' set of eq, but I'm sure everyone has like 5 or more items they'd like to improve on. And if you have the perfect set... roll an alt. Or duckpond it all and start over. But a _forced_ wipe? No thanks, I'm still collecting items in order to finish many of the quests even after a year. Leveling doesn't have much appeal to me, doing zones and quests does. Even if I already have the eq. The fun is in the zoning and questing.

What would your suggestion be for making the mud more playable? Wipe? I sure don't see that improving the player base. Maybe in 5 years time an EQ wipe, but not for the coming 3+ years I hope. Make everyone be able to solo mobs their own level? You mention the point of having 'all' eq and becoming bored because of it yourself, so this wouldn't help. Yes it sometimes sucks to need a bigger group, but if everyone could solo half the mobs on the mud then nobody would play. Think of it like the guild titles - when they were enforced, people complained. Now when they are no longer enforced, people complain even more about the rampant nonsense. Anyway, if you think it sucks needing a full group to zone, move to Europe and you'll see what a pain it is to not have anyone online - only to see them log on when you have to go to sleep.

Lastly, if you're bored I have some quests that could take you half a year to do. Quite fun actually hehe. Or write a zone, give something back to the mud. You might be surprised how frustrating yet fun that is.

[Ashiwi]

My opinion.

The long term playability of the game has been greatly hampered by the weeding out of roleplay. Without the roleplay aspect, the mud eventually becomes just like any other game you get into, play for a while, do about everything you can do, get bored, move on.

I've considered playing other classes, but haven't been able to seriously get involved in them, and I think a good part of that is because of the realization that they will be just the same as my primary character. Sure, there will be different skills/spells, but all that will really be different will be that I chose to move the tophat around the monopoly board, instead of the wheelbarrow.

I tried for a long time to maintain some slight semblance of roleplay, but when you are the only one, there doesn't seem to be much point. There used to be rewards for RP, encouragement in the form of guilds and titles, but no longer. Many aspects of the game do exactly the opposite, encourage the lack of roleplay, so that each successive character rolled is only another cookie cut from the original mold.

I still love the game, but I am coming to a point where it is losing its luster. I've done Tiamat, and the other day I finally did my first Scorps run. The bad thing that I noticed was that I was no longer envisioning the things around me the way I used to, it was no longer a vast desert landscape, it was a bunch of scrolling text.

Without the roleplay aspect, it might as well be just a bunch of numbers. Without the roleplay it would not matter if there were robots in the middle of Ice Crag, smurfs running amok across Evermeet, or cowboys infesting the Underdark.

I look forward to every quest run by the Quest staff, especially the RP required ones, they have been more fun than just about anything else I have experienced on the mud so far. Iuz, Rillifane and Malar have done excellent jobs so far.

Just my opinion.

[Yayaril]

I'll make sure everyone knows when I get bored of Sojourn3. I'm having fun for now. I don't pretend to think it will go on forever, but it's all good right now.

Yayaril

[Guest]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
Lastly, if you're bored I have some quests that could take you half a year to do. Quite fun actually hehe. Or write a zone, give something back to the mud. You might be surprised how frustrating yet fun that is.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As with anything that has "a life of it's own," it has to grow to be challenged. Writing a zone may not be within everyone's ability, but I couldn't agree more with Cherzra *shiver*, give something back. Write a zone, become a newbie helper, write an RP story about your char or your adventures... Iuz runs quests quite a bit...

Also, and it's been said before, we do this for free. "Yadda Laduguer..." hang in there, the people who have the talents to write code for the game are working hard on it when they can.

And in the meantime? get a Gnome Warrior to 50... *salute*

[rylan]

I'll RP with ya ash

Anyway, I can understand where some of your points are coming from. There are lots of new zones and cool stuff being added, and loads of quests and other things to explore. Hell, last night we ended up being the first ones to find a new item, and it was a huge surprise. Theres a lot of stuff left to do

[Wobb]

Wow! Great feedback everyone. Keep it coming.

Yes I've pondered doing a zone...maybe it's time. Newbie helper good suggestion too. Lately all Nugg and I have time for is log on and help someone CR. That is fun too, to get a thanks from someone who really needed your help.

Wobb

[Guest]

I'm afraid I must agree with Ashiwi. The fact is that RP is a shadowy mockery of what true RP could be. While this is sad, it is also true that Sojourn is NOT an RP-enforced MUD. I've been ghosting around again these past few days, and I've noticed quite a few things. Lack of RP being one of these things. Sojourn is a huge world with a great playerbase, but at some point between the end of Soj2 and the begining of Soj3, I lost the ability to just play the game for gear and spells.

It was no longer interesting to spend four hours looking for a group, or trying to do a vault run, etc. It was no longer "worth it" to sit for six hours in Havenport fighting mobs that had no real chance to kill my group, just to gain a level or two. And I won't even get started on the soloing capabilities. It was no longer fun to try to prove myself in the Sojourn style.

Every game has its advantages and disadvantages. Sojourn is no different in this respect. The advantages are that it is a huge world, with a healthy population and a strong, coded system of things for the players to do. The disadvantage is that many of the players do not abstract between themselves as the player and themselves as the character. In other words, it's acceptable to say "Let us sally forth, mine friends dear, and slayeth yon evil lord...then let's talk about last night's football game." I know some people don't even bother with the first part. That's allright for the Sojourn experience, though. As I said before, it is not a RP-enforced MUD.

I remember my experiences as a cleric on Soj2. My soloing ability was nil. And if what I've read above is any indication, this has not changed in the slightest.

So, what can be done with Sojourn3? You could try to enforce RP, though with the god/mortal ratio, that would be almost completely impossible. Sojourn is, and almost always has been, balanced towards group combat. To change that at this late date would be exceedingly difficult. I don't foresee a time of the lone warrior defeating an equal level mob foe anytime at all. PK can never really rise above a meaningless little joke on here, for two reasons I can think of. 1) You cannot loot the corpse(This makes sense here because of the difficulty in procuring equipment.) 2) With classes balanced to deal out appropriate damage to the group-balanced mobs, player vs. player is hopelessly off balance.

These are, of course, simply my opinions. Furthermore, these are my opinions as of the last time I played the game with any enthusiasm, which was a very, very long time ago. Things may have changed, been improved upon, etc. But my final thought has to be, without character provided by RP, the game must rely on other strengths to survive.

Sarauble, once Mistweaver, once Lord of the Fogs
Now, just a ghost, echo of the past.

(How's that for drama?)

[Nilan]

I think rplay is great. I love to do it and i try to include everyone that wants to

Its alot of fun.

Nilan

[Malacar]

If you want strict role-play, go play a MUSH, MUSE, or MUX. MUD is strictly speaking for combat. RP doesn't mix well with it in that sense, and it never has. Freeform is a possibility, but you'd have to have a lot of like minded people. Forcing it on a populace is a doomed venture, imo.

I have never RP'd much on Sojourn, never wanted to, and I hated having it forced down my throat.

I definitely see people's points, but I think that longing for a true RP environment is faulty logic.

If you want true RP that is strictly and heavily reinforced, go check out this MUX, it's based on 3rd edition. www.treyvan.com

[This message has been edited by Malacar (edited 04-03-2002).]

[Elseenas]

The problem isn't just the lack of roleplay. That is a symptom of a much greater cause.

This game has become--and maybe always has been--a game with nothing more than sets of dominate options.

When I talk about game design with people who do that for a living, we often discuss the problem of having what are called dominate and dominated options. Dominant options are a Bad Thing™, as are Dominated ones, yet that is the problem that we are running into.

Constantly, and it is getting worse.

What equipment do you wear? +hp gear is a dominant option, everything else has been dominated in comparison.

What do you specialize in as an enchanter? A cleric? Why even bother including different specializations? Which did assassins choose last wipe? melee or ranged? A !range assassin did not get grouped.

Ranged weapons, how many people used daggers instead of darts? None?

What spells do you choose? I have a little bit of variety on *some* of my levels, but 99% of the time it won't matter.

That, in the end, is why I will stop playing one day.

These things all relate back to roleplay, but that is more of a symptom of our lack of choice in general.

------------------
Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning

[cherzra]

If you get bored and there are no longer any challenges, do what you do with everything else. Move on. It happens with everything. Jobs, computer games, books, movies, hobbies. It's no fault of the game, but a normal development. You can't blame the mud admins for it, as it is the mud is probably the best and most engrossing of its kind around. But people change. Other people pick up where they left off, and life goes on. It's not fair to blame your lack of luster for the mud after many years on the admins' inabilities to provide you with something more than what it is: a game.

[belleshel]

I blame the mud for not keeping me entertained 24x7! I want my money back!

[Zen]

RP is dead and is going to stay dead, staff run quests aside, as long as players are punished for their RP choices. Align based damage spells, hometowns that are aggro good/evil (Combined with the lack of outcasting, a majority of equipment with alignment restrictions and a justice system that actually kills players all contribute to creating cookie cutter characters. RP no longer exists unless it is directly encouraged by our excellent quest staff. I'm speaking in generalities of course, there are acceptions. Some of the most hard core RP players I know no longer have their RP flags up, and go neutral becasue if they didn't they would die.

I don't know what the solution is, but the more distance you see between RP choices and play ability, the more RP you will see.

-Zen

[Kuurg]

Cherzra is absolutely correct. If you're bored with one aspect of the game, by all means, pursue a different one.

But have any of you considered that you're getting tired of the mud because you've been on it for years? Has anything else been able to hold your interest so completely for that long?

------------------
·•Kuurg•·

[Yayaril]

Just look at Touk and you will know that Roleplay isn't dead.

Yayaril

[Jurdex]

Heh. There are fights on soj3 that make any big fight on toril look like romping through podville. Gimme a break! This incarnation of the mud is by far the most challenging and most rewarding from a player's perspective.

True, spanks aren't as hardcore anymore. The reason? There are much much much better players around than there were before. People are exceptional in their skills today by and large, and that allows for quick recovery from spanks or to do that which we could not before.

Realize also that there are many more ways to cheese things these days, but it is due to the fact there are so many new options available to a player. Before you had a sorc and a conj, now you have an chanter/voker/mentalist/illus. All of them with fairly unique spells.

That's easily 3x as many mage spells available to a player than before. It takes a better player to utilize this and thus we've seen how awesome people are.

I would like RP enforced a bit, I guess. Perhaps not a return to the extent of which antis and paladins can't group (the fact that they can group can actually lead to awesome rp, my guild took this into account when forming), but enough of an encouragement where things are more unique.

I suppose the focus lies in associations.

1) Perhaps remove any unique titles from the who list and allow us to customize them when we get badges? Gods wouldn't be super spammed by title changes anymore.

2) Implement requirements of associations. I'd be happy to go over some with a God. I mean there has to be some purpose to forming an assoc other than "I want the cool chat channel with my friends and a nifty title!" I think associations should actually do things in the realms. (and there is plenty you can do, low or high level)

3) Allow alts of level 40 or higher access to their guild's association channel.

4) Institute guildhalls!

Dornax
Jurdex

[kiryan]

huge spanks and multi hour CRs dont happen anymore because players dont make stupid mistakes. not because mobs got easier. we've learned the safe way to do every zone and do it that way. Spirit walk handles most true spanks.

as far as guilds, what the hell are they. i didnt see a vision statement for guilds yet, but everyone seems to know something i dont. this is the second thread where folks have said that they are not chat channels, and this one in particular goes so far as to say not just for friends. bullshit. i formed SD for my rl friends and friends of friends even though we play extremely different play schedules. should i have formed it around being l33t? thats the most retarded thing ive heard today. by all appearances many of you hate DSR? isnt that basically your l33t comes first guild? what have any of the guilds really done? shadows started an auction thing, which is a great event, but they get a lot of plat in return. would they hold auctions if they werent able to get a good return in plat? The lottery and RP contest were also neat events but should guilds be formed around these type of events?

guilds should be what you want them to be. i think there are more than enough people who enjoy the social aspect to justify purely social based guilds. for all the bagging folks do on Blood Raiders, they are a truly hillarious bunch of fun people, but all everyone can do is point their finger at them and say they are not worthy to have titles or a guild. id much rather listen to BR guild chat than probably any other guild in the game; they have fun hanging out with each other. remove the titles if you want, badge them, require stories, whatever, but do not make associations another extension of the elites' pipi.

on solo, more solo ability = one person having fun getting l33t eq, a group sitting at fountain masturbating. there are probably thousands of solo muds but very few grouping muds, you want to solo go play one of those. or perhaps gods could make solo zones, zones that can only be entered by one player at a time, and only be completed once per player.

and dont whine about your play hours, many of you may think you have bad play times, but nothing compares to east asia. we work when you guys are off, are off when you are asleep and sleep when you work. even if we did something abnormal like sleep after work we would still only get to play with folks that were off during the day. go look at the stats there are never fewer than 30 players online, get them high level and playing the right classes and you can zone. most quests dont require more than 4 or 5 people to do, and exploring can be done solo.

on other topics, I agree with cherzra. if your bored find another aspect of the game to play or move on. here are aspects you might have overlooked. i seriously doubt anyone can claim to have done all of the below in soj3, though a couple of you may have come close over the last 7 years. if your not interested in any of the things you havent done, time for you to move on, go do something else with your life, online or offline. good luck being better satisfied somewhere else.

assuming you can claim to be a master of 1 class how are you at the other 10?
have you played different races as the same class or different class?
have you played both good and evil?
have you done even half the quests in the game. even the non-l33t stupid ones.
have you mapped at least 70% of the world? ud? em? ms?
have you lead? extensively? with real spanks?
have you actually done nearly 95% of the zones more than 10 times? or did you do the same 10 zones 100 times? (how many of you actually knew upstairs monastery existed before the quest came in, snicker).
write a zone
run quests
code

and as far as wiping, if that is even being suggested, dont. im just starting to get into questing and mapping and doing some of the stuff that you can do after you taken care of the basics (getting to 50 and getting a good set of eq). im sure i could quest easily for the next year and still not have 1/10th of the knowledge people like cherzra have. if you were to wipe now, then id be fucked, back to square one and have to waste another 20 ish play days getting to 50... fer what so i can go hunt the same damn rares again and be beat by the same people, redo the basic zones another 30 or 40 times so i can get the same eq? so you can wipe again? fuck that. its truly a gem of a game, but i dont get a hardon from being the first with eq x or having more l33t eq than you or doing exp. im with cherzra, wipe and i prolly wont be back for a while.

[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 04-04-2002).]

[Yayaril]

Sorry Kiryan, all I can see in your previous post is the part about 'extend your elite pipi'. Please, tell me more about how I may accomplish this feat?

Yayaril

[Jurdex]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">as far as guilds, what the hell are they. i didnt see a vision statement for guilds yet, but everyone seems to know something i dont. this is the second thread where folks have said that they are not chat channels, and this one in particular goes so far as to say not just for friends. bullshit. i formed SD for my rl friends and friends of friends even though we play extremely different play schedules. should i have formed it around being l33t? thats the most retarded thing ive heard today. by all appearances many of you hate DSR? isnt that basically your l33t comes first guild? what have any of the guilds really done? shadows started an auction thing, which is a great event, but they get a lot of plat in return. would they hold auctions if they werent able to get a good return in plat? The lottery and RP contest were also neat events but should guilds be formed around these type of events? </font>

First, I said they should NOT be chat channels and spanky titles. I think it takes away from the mud dramatically. Secondly, I never said that guilds should have to hold events or the such. I said that could be one extension of RP with guilds. I did say guilds should have a purpose. You totally misunderstood me and then proceded to go off on your rant. smirk.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">guilds should be what you want them to be. i think there are more than enough people who enjoy the social aspect to justify purely social based guilds. for all the bagging folks do on Blood Raiders, they are a truly hillarious bunch of fun people, but all everyone can do is point their finger at them and say they are not worthy to have titles or a guild. id much rather listen to BR guild chat than probably any other guild in the game; they have fun hanging out with each other. remove the titles if you want, badge them, require stories, whatever, but do not make associations another extension of the elites' pipi.</font>

Everyone enjoys the social aspect. Sure. Now theres tons of guilds. 90% of them are there for social reasons. That sucks for RP. It sucks hard. Its purchasing titles and a chat channel and its lame. I remember the days of Mystra's ruling of associations, and while I think it was extreme in some instances, it sure as hell made it worthwhile. Right now having a guild is the equivalent of logging in and getting the isha cloak off an IC mob. Its stupid in my opinion.

Also, I don't know what you're talking about in regards to elites. I don't see how it correlates.

Associations right now are just another reason that the RP atmosphere of Sojourn has declined, and many of us would like it restored (because its an awesome game in almost every other facet). I don't see the problem with that.

Dornax
Jurdex

[Nilan]

i no think rplay is dead. I rplay with lotta people. meet new people when i rplay with em.
Just fun.

Nilan

[Malacar]

So let me get this straight... Because you feel guilds that are in for social aspects, and they don't conform to your RP mental picture, they should be changed?

Um.. Last I checked, this game had some choices left. And I don't believe RP factors anywhere into requirements for guilds anymore. If people want a guild for fun and socializing, let them have their fun.

Just because it's not your idea of fun, doesn't mean that others don't derive fun from it too. That's the beauty of the human being. We're all different.

[Taegost]

DISCLAIMER: Kuurg, this post is NOT aimed at you... Just quoting it because of your second paragraph...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kuurg:
<B>Cherzra is absolutely correct. If you're bored with one aspect of the game, by all means, pursue a different one.

But have any of you considered that you're getting tired of the mud because you've been on it for years? Has anything else been able to hold your interest so completely for that long?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have been playing on this MUD for years, and while yes, there are some aspects that appealed to me before, that don't now, overall, this is still my favorite MUD.
Some people realized that I was getting frustrated a couple months ago and posted my thoughts about it in several threads...
All of which pretty much saying what is being said here, but from a non-power MUDder perspective, so here, I voice my thoughts again.
Most people here think only of the 3133t, badazz player... And a lot of the posts I see here reflect that..
But what about the rest of us, huh?
What about the people that can't, or WON'T, devote more then several hours of time to something?
If I spent as obnoxious amounts of time here like I see a LOT of people doing, I most certainly would not come back after a week.
But, you know what really turns me off most about this game?
It's not RP, or gameplay, or the obnoxious mobs that require 15 people of 16 different classes to slay, or lack of eq, too much eq, insane spell requirements to kill a squirrel at level 50...
Know what it is?
Attitudes.
Attitudes that I see everywhere.
Oh, you can't devote more then 25 hours a day to the MUD? Bah, we can't bother with you, you aren't 3133t.
What? You don't know how to walk to Smoke from Prime? Bahh, you're just not as smart as us 3133t mofos.
Why do you want to play a Drow Warrior? You're a frigging dumbass! You're just not 3133t! (Ya, screw you buddy, let's see how many times YOU get hit in a fight...)
You don't agree with me? It's 'cuz you're not 3133t.
Do you catch my drift?
I think a lot of you people out there need to come off your high horses, and take a look at the MUD, through OTHER peoples shoes, and, to quote the immortal words of Yayril (minus the name of the person he was speaking to, as it applies to most people posting these "I'm too 133t for you 1am3rz")
"All I can see in your previous post is the part about 'extend your elite pipi'. Please,
tell me more about how I may accomplish this feat?" - Yaya
And for those of you who take this as a direct attack, ya, bite me, I'm gonna go get my Drow Warrior to level 50 and show all ya'll what a non-cookie cutter, non-uber FemaleTrollWarriorWithWeight300ShieldAndMadRegen133Tsk1llz can do.
And a final, parting thought.... Tiamat...
She's been done twice... WTF is up with that? Most of the things the gods have been doing I give them mad props for, even if I don't agree with that...
But what's up with that?

------------------
Taegost L'Mirrahn - STUPER DRUID(tm)

[This message has been edited by Taegost (edited 04-04-2002).]

[kiryan]

heres the purpose of the guild i formed. chat channel with my 5 rl friends. it has extended to include friends of friends, and the purpose has extended to help out each other. thats more than sufficient imo.

as for in game purpose, please suggest some because in my narrow viewpoint, all i see is lets get more eq and money and rares than anyone else can. my guild is specifically not about being a power guild cause i think its stupid to expend a lot of energy/time trying if it happens its natural combination of responsible players and good attitude / leadership. every guild has members that quest, every guild has members that explore. Are these good reasons, because i dont really see that weeding out any guilds.

if in game purpose you mean roleplay, im into passive rp. the guild, guild story, and guild titles and player descs is enough rp for me (though truthfully, i havent done anything but brainstorm some stories/plots). does that work for you, or is active in game rp necessary? how do you measure rp, is it just some neat triggers and aliases or do you like it when trolls/ogres/drow roleplay conversations with inferior/weaker races and accept being told "no" or "what to do" rather than just beating the fuk out of mob x.

please help me because i have no idea how you could make changes that dont cater exclusively to a group. whether that be elite, rp, or social. so i say, let folks make guilds into what they want. titles i can give you; they serve no social purpose.

[moritheil]

take. a. break.

pursue women. Organize a pbem. Write songs. 3nj0y.

[moritheil]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Cap'n Touk:
<B>
I'm bored with rolling zones because everyone knows what they're doing.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Haha. hahaha. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

whew.

Catch me leading if you want to be rid of your boredom. =)

[Treladian]

What is the purpose of associations? Some people think they should have RP involved or enforced while on the other end some people view them only as chat channels. And chances are all the groups are right. There once plans to have different types of associations. Religious orders would be devoted to a god (or possibly a group of gods with very similar interests I believe, ie Tyr, Torm, and Ilmater) and heavily steeped in RP, associations would be under more lax rules but still have a number of requirements, and fellowships which basically would have been just social groups without the ability to attain titles or guildhalls but still allow for organization/communication and involvement in the association pkill that had been planned at the time. Of these, only associations became implemented during Sojourn 2 I believe. Now there's no official division between what types of assocations each falls under but some obviously are closer to the more classic associations while others resemble what fellowships probably would have been. Perhaps some sort of categorization should be brought back, with differing levels of benefits (ie, titles and guildhalls) and requirements. What form those requirements would take is hard to say however. Chances are, it would mainly come down to money due to the automated nature of associations now unless admins want to step in and involve themselves in more headaches.

Titles are an even more muddled issue to me. Customizable badges need to have their strings stored somewhere, just like restrung items, so I doubt that that's a practical solution. Additionally, badges are awarded for god run quests and events and I think there's something to be said for having the most unique facet of your equipment reflect something not necesarily related to your association. Having members write stories for their titles makes sense for many of the more poetic or flashy ones, but not as much for the more mundane ones IMO. A multi-page story to explain how someone became known as, say, a sergeant or a type of cavalry, seems kind of weird to me unless the admins want to read dozens of stories that basically depict a high fantasy version of basic training. The wide range of types of titles, like the types of associations, makes it very difficult if not impossible to create one set of rules governing them all.

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"Maybe I should stop and ask for directions . . ."

[Jurdex]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">So let me get this straight... Because you feel guilds that are in for social aspects, and they don't conform to your RP mental picture, they should be changed?</font>

Many people have expressed the same desire I do. I am offering my opinion. That is all it is. I thiss concept really too difficult to grasp?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Um.. Last I checked, this game had some choices left. And I don't believe RP factors anywhere into requirements for guilds anymore. If people want a guild for fun and socializing, let them have their fun.</font>

I feel it hurts the mud's entire environment to have like 10 guilds on the goodie side alone that do nothing. If the requirements were higher people who really wanted the guild would still do it and once again the RP atmosphere of the mud would be restored. I'm not talking anything extreme, either. How can greater standards be a bad thing?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Just because it's not your idea of fun, doesn't mean that others don't derive fun from it too. That's the beauty of the human being. We're all different. </font>

Malacar, do you ever have anything constructive to post?

I would love to see the mud have higher standards for guilds, and I think the majority of other people would too.

You value the car you had to work a year for to buy more than the one that was given to you by your parents. I think the same value would apply here.

Dornax
Jurdex

[This message has been edited by Jurdex (edited 04-04-2002).]

[Malacar]

I have things that are constructive to post. I usually do. Just maybe not to you.

Now let me pose a question to you:

Can people disagree with you, without raising your ire? It seems that lately, anything contrary to your posts, you attack.

Your ideas will be disagreed with. If you get so heated everytime it happens, you're going to have an anxiety attack.

My opinion is every much as valid as yours. I was simply citing that your opinion took little into account that not everyone wants to role-play.

Perhaps something special can be given to those guilds that are based on Role-Play, to encourage it. Spanky badges is an idea, but as others have stated, probably a time-consuming one that might not be worthwhile. Maybe a bonus to prestige. Maybe a free guildhall. Perhaps they get an item restrung. Maybe a special quest spell(I am heavily in favor of this one, but so long as it doesn't unbalance things too much, maybe just restring a current spell to make it look cooler).

You want ideas, here are some rather than having the overbearing 'you must follow our ideas'. I've always disagreed with this mentality of brute force to make players comply to a set mold. Without freedom of choice, a mud will stagnate, and the playerbase will shrink. A mud, or any game for that matter, needs to be flexible in some areas, especially where it applies to socialization. Everyone has different ideas of fun, everyone will defend them. Sometimes rabidly and with venom.

As an aside Dornax: I reread my post, and there was nothing there that was caustic, other than pointing out you offered nothing except that to be guilded, you must role-play. Not everyone will be kosher with that, and expecting them to be... Well let's just say, speaking for myself, I disagree. And claiming you are speaking for a majority is a weak defense. If they truly believed that, they would be posting here as others did and will continue to do. Not sure why you went out of your way to half-way flame me, but I'm sure you have your reasons.

Trying to keep this civil,
Malacar

[Jurdex]

I wasn't half-way flaming.

Your posts usually are just laced with complaints, which is why I responded to it. You gave no alternatives or ideas except to miscontrue what I said.

I am looking for ideas to instill a sense of purpose to guilds. You actually gave an idea in your last post, which is constructive.

Also, I don't know what you're talking about in regards to my posts of late being pissy when people don't agree with me.

I'm simply being constructive in my posts and I ask others do the same if/when they don't agree with me (which is fine).

Dornax
Jurdex

[Malacar]

Ah.. Well I suppose you're right. I really didn't offer anything but a viewpoint in my last post, so given those criteria, I apologize.

[Teyaha]

"I feel it hurts the mud's entire environment to have like 10 guilds on the goodie side alone that do nothing. If the requirements were higher people who really wanted the guild would still do it and once again the RP atmosphere of the mud would be restored. I'm not talking anything extreme, either. How can greater standards be a bad thing?"

i feel it hurts the mud more if there were only two guilds and you couldnt do anything if you not part of them.

no more social outcasting, m'kay? let folks have their fun.

[Somerled]

I suppose Ill respond with some reference to waaaaaay back during Soj1 .. im not guilded here and its not really important to me to be so .. BUT ... I will add that Guids/Assoc today ARE in fact different today than years ago .... I started out on Soj1 as a raw newbie .. and I mean raw .. Soj was my very first mud ... a Ranger was my very first char .. and at level 25 I became guilded in the Order of the Wyrm ... at that time it was Lead by the one and only .. the legendary Burunga! Without a doubt a historical figure in the history of Soj ... the Wyrm was a small guild but was slowly developing a well earned reputation as a very fun guild ... and Burunga was a fantastic leader .. we would have a weekly meeting, he would plan ahead of time outings for us ... and I will never forget the scavanger hunt he arranged for us lower level members to encourage us to get out and learn the world! It was a blast ... in those days of Soj .. there were character description contests, Guild story contests .. the Guild Story contest comes to mind where the winner won a small Guildhall ... I actually had the pleasure of developing the description for the main hall in the Guild .. if anyone remebers the moorhound from the Moonshaes that resided in the main room, the smells of roast venison, the imported rugs from calimport that adorned the floors .... Kobei and I together joined the Wyrm within a week of each other .. good times .. excellent fun! I repeat the word Fun ... it was FUN to be in a guild ... there were no politics in the Wyrm ... and it didnt seem like it was work to get in it ... I knew absolutely no one ... and Burunga welcomed me

Soj3 is not Soj1, I think we should ask ourselves why, what has the mud lost Since Soj1 and what has it gained .. I remember the days of 300+ players on at the same time during Soj1 being the norm ... there does appear to be a bit "clickishness" today ... possibly due to a "smaller" player base? ... just thoughts and comments ..

Regards

[kiryan]

deleted

[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 04-05-2002).]

[Corth]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jurdex:
<B>
I am looking for ideas to instill a sense of purpose to guilds.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, if nothing else, your intentions are noble. I don't know why you disparage malacar so vehemently when he advocates choice in the types of guilds that are around on the mud. Isn't it self-evident that different people enjoy doing different things? If you like to snowboard, and person B likes to ski, is your preference greater than the other? Another way of putting it: Why should the actions of people not in your organization be your business? And why should we care?

If you want to 'instill a sense of purpose' into guilds, then you are by all means free and encouraged to do so... with your guild. But I don't appreciate being told that my guild, or any other for that matter, doesn't live up to your expectations of how a proper guild should be.

You disparage the (paraphrasing) 10 goodie guilds 'that do nothing'. This statement arrogantly suggests that the hundred or so constitutent members of these organizations 'do nothing' as well. I ask: Who are you to judge the intentions and motivations of these people? Of course, your entitled to your opinion... but why should any of us listen to it if its arrogant and rude? I'm curious.

Corth

[Kuurg]

I'm convinced the problem is that I'm 27 now, not 17.



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·•Kuurg•·

[Ashiwi]

Damn, lay off.

Guilds used to have a very set purpose with very strict guidelines, and everybody here knows it. All Dornax was saying is he would like to see a bit more purpose added to them than the function they seem to serve now, which is simply as a chat feature for most people in them. They went from one extreme to the other with what seems like no middle ground. He makes very good points that the things which people have to work for are typically the things which give the most satisfaction in having, but nobody wants to see that.

Has the idea that somebody's trying to "force" people into something become some sort of twisted rallying cry to remove all semblance of "work" from the mud? Eventually we'll have a wonderful game which will make everybody happy, you'll be able to log in, tell a bot what you want, they'll hand it to you, and you can log out, happy and satisfied that you conquered all there was to conquer about the game.

Corth, I know you work your butt off at achieving the things that you do, nobody has said that you don't. Of all the people on this game who must know what it is to appreciate something they've put in the effort for, I would think it was you. You're always after new ways to do things, and you manage to accomplish a great deal, perhaps using some unorthodox methods and ticking people off, but you continue to show an ingenuity which many do not appreciate.

Now answer honestly... do you really think the kind of system where very little to no effort is asked for the rewards that are given is the best? Is that the kind of system which keeps people striving and intrigued?

[Corth]

Ashiwi:

Thank you for stroking my ego

I agree with you that in order to keep people interested and intrigued in the mud, they need to put in hard work for their rewards. I wasn't aware exactly how I may have been advocating the opposite position. If you could perhaps explain it again I'll try to understand it better

Particularly, I would like a better idea of what you mean when you use the word "work". Is completing a difficult zone a lesser form of "work" then it is to figure out a difficult quest? Or to come up with a unique and interesting rp character?

Corth

[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 04-05-2002).]

[Ashiwi]

I wouldn't say any of them are "lesser," they simply utilize different forms of effort, thus appealing to the many different playing styles of the players. You don't consider the guilds one of the "perks" of the mud?

You and the rest of DSR would more than likely be a fairly tight-knit group without the formation of guild. You would still be able to do the greater majority of things your guild already does without being in a guild. It would affect your zoning very little, don't you think? It makes it easier to form up, definitely, but without it you would still be accomplishing pretty much the same things, correct?

Forming a guild used to be an accomplishment, all unto itself. Maintaining the guild was another accomplishment. Being in a guild was as much a badge of honor as anything could be on the mud. I was never in a guild last wipe, and if guilds were handled more strictly this wipe I would probably not be in a guild now. That would still be okay with me, it would just mean I would have to work harder to accomplish a goal.

[therdan]

Many of us have suffered from the good ole day blues. I could ramble on for pages of things I would of done differently. One of the problems is time. As the mud grew in size and space, time to travel was lengthened a great deal. At the same time most players had less time to spend. Try walking from MH to HP when your kids are crying/hungry or wife is bitching lol.

Guilds blah don’t get me started Soj3 did not want my advice nor my presence. I tried very hard to make them work on Soj2. It just hurts my eyes to see the titles and desc of players today.


Dreams of pods and displacers.


[This message has been edited by therdan (edited 04-05-2002).]

[Corth]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ashiwi:
<B>
You and the rest of DSR would more than likely be a fairly tight-knit group without the formation of guild. You would still be able to do the greater majority of things your guild already does without being in a guild. It would affect your zoning very little, don't you think? </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can tell you from experience, and you can ask Dornax as well, that you are correct. On Toril, "Trogar's Crew" (for lack of a better title), was indeed a guild, in everything but name. We grouped together exclusively, prepared for tia together, etc. We were kept from becoming an official guild because even with a lot of hard work, we could not figure out a way to pass the stringent RP requirements contained in that quasi-legal document regulating guilds.

As I said, it would not have made a difference in how we played, but yet we took the time to try and become a guild nonetheless. Probably for the simple reason that we wanted to be recognized as a group by the mud as a whole. I think its great that a group of people can achieve that sort of recognition these days without going through an impossible process. If they want to do something with their guild (such as RP), once they have it, even better...

DSR isn't much different then "Trogar's Crew". We're a bunch of experienced and hardcore mudders who are also friends, and we play well amongst each other because we know each other's playing style. We sacrifice our own rewards at times for the good of the group. We're an adventurer's guild.

Rising Pheonix doesn't go out and zone like we do. Would that be one of the guilds that Dornax suggests does nothing? I would disagree. They introduce newer mudders to the high level game. I bet that through their ACC, they learn a bit about mud politics, where items load, what quest mobs are for what quest, mud gossip, etc.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Forming a guild used to be an accomplishment, all unto itself. Maintaining the guild was another accomplishment. Being in a guild was as much a badge of honor as anything could be on the mud.</font>

The accomplishment in forming a guild was being able to comply with extensive arbitrary RP requirements, even if your motivation to mud was not RP. Perhaps obtaining the funds necessary to start a guild these days is not as much of an accomplishment.. but the alternative did not work. Maintaining a guild, trust me, is still a labor of love. Being in a guild, still is, as far as I'm concerned, a badge of honor. Obviously some guilds are better than others. If RP is your motivation for playing, I doubt DSR is the guild for you. At least you have the choice though, to join a more RP oriented guild. I'm all for choice. There are many different reasons to mud, and many different organizations. Good.

Corth

[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 04-05-2002).]

[Jurdex]

First, I wasn't anything but cordial to Malacar. If you feel differently then you misconstrued my post.

Again, Corth, you have offered nothing constructive in your posts except "I don't want it that way."

I have already stated that I would not like to see guilds be something ridiculously hard like on toril. However, soj2 and Therdan had very lax requirements, but enough so that not everyone and their brother was guilded and titled.

Pardon me for feeling that a guild and a title should be something you actually have to earn not just buy.

All you do these days is drop 5k plat and voila you have a guild. Its ridiculous. Also, you take my statement about the 10 goodie guilds out of context. I've talked to many many players in different guilds. 95% of those players were extremely disappointed in their guild. (Disclaimer: I am not stating this to bash other guilds.) However, they joined the guild with high expectations that never materialized.

How is this good for the mud?

The bottom line is if guilds actually had standards, then those who still desired to have a guild would still have one. Its not like I'm saying the price should be increased or they should have to zone or slay Tiamat. *Anyone* can do the things I (or anyone else) am suggesting.

Maybe you don't want to RP. That is fine. You don't have to. No one does.

Treladian brought up a good point.

Whatever happened to guilds, associations and fellowships?

Perhaps a fellowship would have acc and nothing else because they are a social group.

Perhaps an association would have acc, a guildhall and guild name but no titles because they RP a little bit and have a central theme or purpose.

And finally perhaps a guild would have acc, a guild hall, a guild name, titles and badges because they are into RP and are heavy into promoting RP.

I'm not saying we should screw anyone out of their chance to become part of a guild/assoc/whatever, but I do feel the current state of such organizations is defacing the great standards of RP and repuation Sojourn had worked years to build.

If everyone took the time to flesh out a story and theme about their guild (which they had to have), why are people so against actually putting it to use in gameplay?

Dornax
Jurdex

[Elscint]

They exsisted in name, then they exsisted without. They had incredible influence and power... perhaps more than the gods... The bonds created were perhaps the deepest this mud has ever seen and ever will see... They became myth, stories told to young ones and they are all but a whisper in todays world... Be careful what you wish for with guilds... True depth and work create beauty and grace... but putting too much into this game has caused bonds that ran perhaps too deep at one point and brought things to a point where it almost wasn't a game anymore...

------------------
Azaz a.k.a.
Elscint Hairytoes
(The Halfling Sorcerer)
Luke Olson

[Malacar]

Your idea of cordial leaves a lot to be desired, Dornax. Just because you are polite in your posts, doesn't mean what you say is right or just.

I was polite in turn only because I am tired of the 'holier than thou' posts, and didn't wanna see more of them. But my name got bandied about, so the ever-annoying Malacar is back to put his 2 cents worth in yet again.

Noone I think, is against using RP stories. But if you carefully reread some of the posts, including yours, you make it sound like a social guild is a bad thing. You also make it sound like they should be penalized. I think, instead of penalizing, the current system should remain intact, and merely add to it for those that want to RP heavily.

I've posted it several times, but it didn't seem to get through, so I'll say it as plain as I can here:

The heavyhandedness of the past has harmed Sojourn as well as help it. The current state of affairs is getting back to old players and they are logging back on. I think the mud is heading in a different direction. Some good, some bad. Some based off old, a lot new. The mud has moved away from the RP aspect that some players held dear(Those players were always a minority in my eyes, though I could be wrong). And instead of moving on, some are offering ideas on how to adapt to the new living situation. That's good. I like to see that, rather than people go away. What's bad, is that they want this so much, that some are willing to trample any in their path that disagree. Maybe trample is a bad word... Perhaps ignore would be better.

And the politics crap has to go people. I'm so tired of seeing people I was friendly with in Imphras treat me disrespectfully now that I am in DSR, when I've done nothing but show them respect in the past. It's happened in the opposite direction too. I really wish everyone can just ignore those silly few letters and just get along. The animosity is really ruining the game for a lot of people caught up in the middle of it, and I don't even think it is justified anymore. I don't know everything, so if there is something I am missing, I invite you to EMAIL me it.

I'm just getting frustrated for being treated like some kind of animal because of the people I hang with. Perhaps that's life... But I don't have to like it.

[Ashiwi]

I actually never even noticed you were in DSR. And before you go off on that, it's not a rude comment, I just don't usually pay attention to who is in what guild. Grats.

[Jurdex]

Groan. Why does everything get pissed away and chalked up to "oh this is another guild political bs type thing?"

Bottom line: you're adding the guild element, not me. I'm posting about returning to the mud a RP atmosphere.

As far as a social guild being a bad thing, in my eyes it is when that is all that is out there. I'd like to see more variety, including RP guilds and social guilds as my suggestions have entailed.

Read and understand before you reply.

Dornax
Jurdex

[Malacar]

Yeah... I suggest the same. I'll bow out of your conversation though, Dornax. Have a day.

[kiryan]

perhaps its all thats out there because thats all people want to do.

while i think there should be incentives for people to role play (because alot more people would if there were something to gain), id prefer if it wasnt assocations unless we replaced the social feature with permanent player created private chat channels then made guilds RP only.

Also, Id suggest that guilds and titles are a lot of peoples first exposure to rp. when your first asked to decide your title, you got to start thinking about your character image rather than just your hit/dam/hps. you will lose something if you decide that associations and titles are rp only, might be a miniscual return, but you will definitely lose an opportunity to expose more folks to rp.

you know what id do if i were truly interested in getting more people to rp? id look at someones title then tell them how cool it is and ask them where you can read their story. then, id try to rp with them.

ultimately, its this type of action that restores the RP environment your searching for, not RP rules forcing people to rp so they can enhance their char with titles/guilds.