The first site-ban.

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The first site-ban.

Postby Guest » Tue Apr 16, 2002 1:33 am

I really hoped it would not come to this, but unfortunately a terrible situation has been confirmed for me, and I must act on behalf of my conscience and the protection of Sojourn's people.

Over an angry dispute on the mud, Cherzra signed Corth up to more than a dozen Junk Email lists malicously. An intolerable act.

Cherzra slipped up by using a GNU mailing list as one of his targets for Corth. GNU lists always return the IP of the site that signs you up for an Email list, and thus Corth was able to learn the IP. He reported it to me, and I confirmed from our own logs that in fact it was Cherzra's permanent IP.

At first I didn't want to believe it, and when Cherz denied the incident, I backed off and let it go as I had no proof either way.. But Corth did his own investigating with GNU, and as GNU loves to nail spammers and hackers, they readily turned over a log file entry to us both that confirmed the Email was subscribed From Cherzra's IP using Corth's Email. I called GNU to confirm the identity of the sender, spoke with Mark on the phone, and solidifed the evidence.

Cherzra has broken a cardinal rule of net-ettiquette, and may even be legally liable for his actions. Because this took place between players on Sojourn in our own BBS forum, I am left with no choice but to act on my own conscience of what is right and wrong. Such an attack can never be tolerated, never be allowed, and must always be dealt with justly and swiftly.

I have "indefinitely" banned Cherzra from Sojourn pending further investigation, legal action between Cherzra and Corth, and any additional evidence that either might bring forward. But as it stands now, there is a confirmed, traced path leading back to Cherzra as having done this, and as such I have no choice. If at some point in the future Cherzra clears his name and prooves his innocense (though I dont see how), makes ammends with Corth, and/or settles the matter legally, I will lift the ban - but not until then.

Today is a dark day for Sojourn, we lost a great player over something as trivial as a BBS argument. Image I take no joy in what I've had to do with this, but it IS my responsibility to protect my players from just such sitautions, and I would do it again. Now perhaps do you all see how fruitless and pointless BBS flaming is? What does it accomplish but to enrage people to do things they never would normally do. I can't stop everyone from flaming, but know that if you do, do so at your own peril. Corth does not win either, though Cherzra is gone, Corth will NEVER be able to fully clear his Email from those lists.. They are broadcast around the world to many sites that buy lists, and in the years to come he will learn the pain and inconvenience he brought upon himself by choosing to flame Cherzra. They say some lessons are only learned through pain, and it seems that both will learn this lesson today. Learn From them, act mature on the BBS, and choose your enemies very, very wisely.

Miax
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Postby Jenera » Tue Apr 16, 2002 6:08 am

O_O

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Postby cherzra » Tue Apr 16, 2002 7:51 am

Quite frankly it is none of your business what happens outside of the mud. What people do in their own lives is their problem, and if someone came to me with their RL issues I would laugh and send them off. But if you believe that you should play judge in this, then feel free to. It will be the mud's loss, although I will miss it for the first months. Looks like you'd rather keep someone who calls you a gestapo and openly flames you on the BBS, who ridicules other staff members on the DSR website and who loves to group with lowbies (hint: false statement) and help 'em out than someone who writes a 15 page newb doc, contributes in other ways and has the biggest zone the mud has yet seen 95% done on the testmud. Hey Corth, when was the last time a god sent you a tell "I really appreciate what you do for newbies, thanks"? Don't answer, I know Image

Corth flames admins: Corth can stay. Cherzra flames Corth: Cherzra has to go. World of difference there. That's fine. I'll find something else to do in my spare time, and Corth can just go on twinking Korahl, playing elite clique, complaining about jot and wingbuffet and whatnot, which is after all what this game is about. So long everyone.

"Some rise by sin, and some by virtue fall" - William Shakespeare.


[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 04-16-2002).]
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Postby Tasan » Tue Apr 16, 2002 9:27 am

"It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid, than to open it and remove all doubt." -- Mark Twain

I'm overly disgusted to see that something like this game can bring people to do stupid things like this. What an embarrassing situation. I was under the impression that most of us are adults in our actions and thinking, not so base as to do something of that nature. Sad really...

Twyl/Tkik

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Postby Glarec » Tue Apr 16, 2002 12:05 pm

to start with, i totally respect cherzra as a player in the mud and by him leaving we have lost a great great player. that being said, and after what cherzra wrote (that being his side of the story), i am totally baffled and disappointed.

cherzra, miax has every right and needed to step in and do what he did.. u got corth's email address from this bbs and therefore abused the bbs. because of u.. almost everyone of us will remove our email address from this bbs and therefore effectively remove a function of this bbs. what u did is not outside of the mud. this bbs is a part of the mud and u affect not only corth, but the rest of us as well.

i am sure if u had gotten his email address somewhere else, then miax wouldn't have the authority to sit ban u(which i don't see how). then yes, you'll be right.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
<B>Quite frankly it is none of your business what happens outside of the mud. What people do in their own lives is their problem, and if someone came to me with their RL issues I would laugh and send them off. But if you believe that you should play judge in this, then feel free to. It will be the mud's loss, although I will miss it for the first months. Looks like you'd rather keep someone who calls you a gestapo and openly flames you on the BBS, who ridicules other staff members on the DSR website and who loves to group with lowbies (hint: false statement) and help 'em out than someone who writes a 15 page newb doc, contributes in other ways and has the biggest zone the mud has yet seen 95% done on the testmud. Hey Corth, when was the last time a god sent you a tell "I really appreciate what you do for newbies, thanks"? Don't answer, I know Image

Corth flames admins: Corth can stay. Cherzra flames Corth: Cherzra has to go. World of difference there. That's fine. I'll find something else to do in my spare time, and Corth can just go on twinking Korahl, playing elite clique, complaining about jot and wingbuffet and whatnot, which is after all what this game is about. So long everyone.

"Some rise by sin, and some by virtue fall" - William Shakespeare.


[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 04-16-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
cherzra
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Postby cherzra » Tue Apr 16, 2002 12:14 pm

Actually, I got it from the dsrising website. Where it still is by the way.

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Postby fildur » Tue Apr 16, 2002 12:19 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
<B>Quite frankly it is none of your business what happens outside of the mud.
*snip*
Corth flames admins: Corth can stay. Cherzra flames Corth: Cherzra has to go. World of difference there. That's fine. I'll find something else to do in my spare time, and Corth can just go on twinking Korahl, playing elite clique, complaining about jot and wingbuffet and whatnot, which is after all what this game is about. So long everyone.

"Some rise by sin, and some by virtue fall" - William Shakespeare.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

guess this matter is none of my buisness, but still, i cant keep my mouth shut...

if someone uses the mud or takes mud-issues to in fact damaging other ppls means of communication miax is nothing but right to siteban. actions like cherzra's are one of the biggest abuses of the net and _anyone_ who acts harsh and firmly against it is doing the right thing.

sorry for taking this sad moment to tell thge staff that they are doing great work, i hoped the occation would be telling them that mentalists truly rock, and the game is all the greatest. guess i never come around to that b4, so here comes:

keep up the good work miax and the rest of the staff, just find it that you do a great job. and it is great too that you use the means at hand to deal with situations when players are abused.

/fil
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Postby ssar » Tue Apr 16, 2002 12:31 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Miax:
<B>Today is a dark day for Sojourn,
...
Now perhaps do you all see how fruitless and pointless BBS flaming is?
Miax
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How TRUE, and
How TRUE.

And How Pathetic this is.

*shiver*

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Mogr -=BloodSeeker=-
Beer. More Beer.
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Postby Gort » Tue Apr 16, 2002 1:20 pm

I mourn the loss of Cherzra as a player, though I don't play evil, I have seen his contributions. More than that, I mourn the "innocence lost". That things said either in game, or on the BBS would bring someone to act in this way.

Words are just that, they can cut, they can sting, but when its all said and done, they aren't truly a knife twisting between your ribs, or the gauntlet across your face.

No-one is perfect, but please, keep in game issues in game, and on BBS issues on the BBS. Make points clearly, concisely and attack the issue not the person.

If you disagree with someone, simply state that, I disagree, then support your viewpoint with a logical position supported with evidence. If not, state it as "in my opinion"... and if all else fails, agree to disagree.

We may not act civil to mobs in game, but we must still act civil to each other.

Toplack Frostbear
IMHO

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Guest

Postby Guest » Tue Apr 16, 2002 2:04 pm

The simply, terrible act of what Cherzra did is reason #1 why he was banned.

What disgusts me the most is that he bald-faced lied to me when I asked him about it. Denied it Up and Down, and only after presented with irrefutable evidence, did he admit his guilt. That is reason #2 why Cherzra is banned.

Cherzra's comment that it's none of my busines what happens outside the mud is the same reason why so many Germans stood by and said, "It's none of my business what they do in that concentration camp." It's the same as saying that because I'm personally not involved with a crime, because it's not my wife being tormented in the alley below, that I shouldn't call the police and shouldn't act? Thats sick, period.

If Cherzra is a honorable man, he will realize that out of anger he made an aggrevous error in judgement. He will approach Corth with humble apologies and offer to try and fix the Email list problems.

He would learn from this, and like many before him have, rise above it and show the world that he is not only honorable, but a noble man, and also a Human man - for it is human to error, it it never wise to goto war, and it is the better man who can face his devils, take responsibility for them, and ultimately conquer them. What kind of man is Cherzra going to show us he is? Only time will tell, and I for one honestly hope that apologizes publically to Corth, and if Corth can forgive him, that he return in glory.

It is no small Irony that Corth faced this same sitaution just some months ago. Corth did the honorable thing, showed the world that while he can be abbrasive, he is also most honorable, and from that rebirth has risen to lead one of the 4 most powerful guilds and live as a king among his people. I myself have fallen to the same lows, and had to cut my teeth with public humiliation for actions that were most disgusting. I too overcame my demons. Cherzra would be wise to continue this tradition, and rise above this, for no one can fathom why such an important, intelligent, and very good person would fall to such lows, and not repent. It's up to you Cherzra, you choose your destiny.

Miax


[This message has been edited by Miax (edited 04-16-2002).]
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Postby moritheil » Tue Apr 16, 2002 2:46 pm

I was just thinking about the irony involved last night . . . and I wasn't going to post, but it looks like others did.

Cherzra is an irreplacable player, but anger sometimes leads to unforgivable acts.

A great tragedy.

I am curious about something, however. It looks like the staff places players' rights and offending others higher than offending the staff. If this is intentional, I applaud it, for it shows an extraordinary dedication.
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Postby Zrax » Tue Apr 16, 2002 2:48 pm

I don't see why "flaming" is being blamed for this. Personally what adds flare to reading the BBS is the confrontations, be it a subtle jab, or a biting comment, the most exciting threads to read and participate in are the ones with a little conflict in them. I would never condone what took place, but its a stretch to place the blame on flaming in general. This act was just over the top and purely the fault of the individual, there should be nothing that can be said on this BBS that can justify personal attack of any sort against an individual.

I see the point Cherzra was trying to make but would say just apologize and try to make it right, life is too short to get caught up in a battle over pride that noone wins.

oh and,

Subscribing to multiple mailing lists VS years of torment and inhumane treatment in a german concentration camp.... that would make an interesting thread... perhaps a bit melodramatic in our analogies.
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Apr 16, 2002 2:54 pm

Such a what? Important, intelligent and very good person? I'm not intentionally trying to flame Cherzra here, I've held a great deal of respect for him, both in game and on the BBS. He's contributed a lot to the game, BUT...

It's not exactly a secret that Cherzra seems to be two different people, one in the game, one here on the BBS. On the BBS his posts have been inflammatory, at the very least. He has set the standard for insulting, virulent, mean-spirited posts using language pulled out of the depths of the gutter. He is quick to use hurtful words, and seems to pull no punches when he sets out to wound. I've read through some of his old posts, and I have never once believed that Cherzra did not know what he was writing when he posted them. He has been told by other players over and over again that the things he says are just downright mean, yet it has never stopped him. He has had free reign to insult whomever he wished on this BBS in whatever way he wanted to do so, and he made use of it.

I am NOT for crucifying Cherzra, but Cherzra was one of the leaders in inflammatory posts. He had serious issues with his anger, and he took it out in this forum. I doubt there's many people here who can say "Cherzra got banned because of something that started on the BBS? What a surprise!" I think many of us knew he was heading this way, we were only wondering how far he was going to have to go before somebody interceded.

I know I'm wading in hip deep here, and it's really none of my business, but you're doing a grave disservice not only to Cherzra by glossing over the history that's led up to this, but to those whom he has stepped on repeatedly. It was not like he was an upstanding citizen until he just "snapped." It is NOT the staff's job to police us, but to not acknowledge his repeated abusive behavior previously on the BBS is, indeed, turning a blind eye to his problems. The act he perpetrated against Corth is only the culmination of a long history of lashing out.
Guest

Postby Guest » Tue Apr 16, 2002 2:57 pm

Flaming people is not the same as confrontation. It is the difference between talking loudly and shouting. Between a good debate, of sly wit, or cunning positioning and an infantile attack born of rage that neither wins your point nor earns you respect. You are absolutely correct about conflict, but you over-generalize by placing all Forms of BBS conflict under one umbrella. Debate and sly wit are expected, mindless attacks and mud-flinging that disguest everyone, are not.

And secondly, analogies are not meant to be to scale, they are meant to illustrate clearly a point. Of course what Cherzra did does not compare to the Nazi's, but the idea of standing idle while doing nothing is very effectively demonstrated by using the Nazi's as a classic example of what "doing nothing" in witness of a crime can ultimately mean. Thus are my analogies not to scale, but used to articulate my meaning.

Miax
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Postby Caedym » Tue Apr 16, 2002 3:54 pm

I concur with the sentiment you are trying to express about Cherzra, Ashiwi. He didn't just snap. He's been pushing it harder, and harder, and harder, and harder each and every week. What started as a pebble of irritation had grown into a giant crashing boulder of rage rolling over everyone and everything within its path.

And yes you’re right again Ashiwi, there were two distinctively different people. The Cherzra that played the MUD, and the Cherzra that posted here.

Now people, let’s keep it straight. It started with flames, but as Miax said, the reason he’s banned is “Cherzra signed Corth up to more than a dozen Junk Email lists malicously. An intolerable act.”

I doubt Corth can use legal action against Cherzra, since I believe he lives out of the US and therefore the same laws do not apply.

Nothing I hate more then jackasses across the sea abusing laws via the internet. That’s low Cherzra. That’s fucking low.

I support Miax’s decision 100%

Cherz, you F'd up big time man. Recognize and repent.

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Postby Jegzed » Tue Apr 16, 2002 4:09 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Caedym:
<B>I doubt Corth can use legal action against Cherzra, since I believe he lives out of the US and therefore the same laws do not apply.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This site should have all laws about data protection in Europe.

http://europa.eu.int/comm/internal_market/en/media/dataprot/index.htm

[This message has been edited by Jegzed (edited 04-16-2002).]
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Postby Malacar » Tue Apr 16, 2002 4:51 pm

I'm going to respect Miax, and keep flaming to nil. So this is short, and sweet.

I have lost every shred of respect I once had for you Cherzra.

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Postby Zoldren » Tue Apr 16, 2002 5:47 pm

first, Cherzra was a good player and will be missed by both staff and players.

second, his email address was on multiple public forums

third, as far as i know mailing lists are not illegal and neither is signing someone up, or else telemarketers wouldnt have a job.

fourth I dont agree, but respect the decision.

fifth, this sets the precident that if anyone does something unmoral or hint of illegal outside mud that you will be site band.. Image hope this doesnt come about

sixth, in the time taken to find out who done it, could have simply unsubscribed....

my six sense Image
Guest

Postby Guest » Tue Apr 16, 2002 6:12 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zoldren:
<B>fifth, this sets the precident that if anyone does something unmoral or hint of illegal outside mud that you will be site band.. Image hope this doesnt come about
</B>
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, that's not the precedent that is being set. Should you use MUD resources (such as the BBS, the MUD itself, etc) to do something immoral or illegal we will take actions against you. We will protect our players and staff. Not to mention that Cherzra flat lied to Miax when asked about it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
<B>
sixth, in the time taken to find out who done it, could have simply unsubscribed....

my six sense Image</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spam mail is a huge problem on the internet. Once your email address it out, that address will effectively be shut down from the barrage of emails being sent to it.
Unsubscribing to a list isn't usually an option because all that does is tell the people who run the lists that they have a valid email address that they can sell to various sources. Even opening the emails will verify the address and cause the person undue and unwanted waste of their time and resources.

There are several states (Washington and Colorado most notably) that allow people to go after spammers in both civil and criminal court based on the fact that it is using the persons' time and resouces to deal with the deluge of crap mail that ensues.

So, in this instance, what Cherzra did is immoral, against netiqutte and illegal (both considered against anti-spamming laws that may apply in whichever state or fraud charges for falsely representing himself as someone he is not).

This is completely off topic, however.
Guest

Postby Guest » Tue Apr 16, 2002 6:24 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zoldren:
<B>first, Cherzra was a good player and will be missed by both staff and players.

second, his email address was on multiple public forums

third, as far as i know mailing lists are not illegal and neither is signing someone up, or else telemarketers wouldnt have a job.

fourth I dont agree, but respect the decision.

fifth, this sets the precident that if anyone does something unmoral or hint of illegal outside mud that you will be site band.. Image hope this doesnt come about

sixth, in the time taken to find out who done it, could have simply unsubscribed....

my six sense Image</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me ask you this Zoldren. If Sojourn was your mud, and someone used your mud to attack players on a personal level using a mechanism that spoils an Email address indefinitely (and No you Cannot simply unsubscribe, it doesn't work that way in the spam mail world). Would you allow your players to be attacked, and protect the attacker? Or would you protect the vast number of your players who are good from the extreme few who are not?

It is the job of a soverign to protect his people With the law, not to protect the Law from the people. You are free to disagree as you like, but I would fear living in a state run by you.

As for prescidence, I agree with Kia completely, and further your own point to say that Yes, a prescidence Has been set, but not the one you bleakly describe - that was unfair. We as the staff have gone FAR out of our way to protect our players, to support our players, to pardon our players even when directly attacked. No not nearly at all your view, but one that draws a line in the sand for all to hear that, "If anyone attacks our players on personal levels in viscious and clearly-unacceptable ways using the mud or it's resources, we will act to protect the innocent." That is our job, our duty, and our promise. I'm sorry that you can't see what is truely right from wrong here, but again that is your privledge. I would make the same decision again if I had to, because I know in my heart that what I did was just.

Miax


[This message has been edited by Miax (edited 04-16-2002).]
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Postby Elseenas » Tue Apr 16, 2002 6:47 pm

::sighs:: I hate to see this kind of thing happen.

1) Even if Cherzra didn't use MUD resources: The fight started on the MUD resources, it was within Miax's rights--and even his responsibility--to take care of it.

2) This is a very dark day for us.

3) Cherzra, stop defending yourself. There is no defense for your actions and the fact that you *lied* about them only makes this worse.

This isn't even a respectable attack... Just absolutely revolting...

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Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
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Postby Sarkhon » Tue Apr 16, 2002 7:36 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zoldren:
<B>sixth, in the time taken to find out who done it, could have simply unsubscribed....
my six sense Image</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Zoldren, I don't know you, but your sixth sense fails to consider the repurcussions that this act can have on someone both personally and professionally. Perhaps I'm biased, because Corth is a good friend, but purposely shutting down someone's e-mail that is used not only for MUD purposes but for job purposes is clearly in the wrong -- particularly when employers are trying to actively contact you through it. Perhaps you would like to undergo the arduous task of notifying each of the 100 employers that you have resumes out to that your email has suddenly changed, but I myself, would not.

As Miax pointed out, you can't just un-subscribe from these lists, your email spreads far too quick to even have a shot at that. Regardless of where his email may or may not be listed, this issue originated from the BBS, thus Miax is implicitly involved one way or another. I'm not going to argue the merits of the decision because it's not my place, but try to consider the ramifications of this action in a different light, and I believe you will come to realize that the affects are a tad more malicious than they initially appear.
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Postby Gormal » Tue Apr 16, 2002 8:22 pm

When someone crosses that line between real life and the game, and brings a game vendetta into the real world, there has to be a punishment. I think that removing that person from the game (even if only for a short time) is a healthy thing. Perhaps Cherzra could use some time off if hes taking the game seriously enough to resort to such things.

Is a sad affair all around.

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Gormal FaCtOr!

Gormal Stoneforge
Kildran T'sarith
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Guest

Postby Guest » Tue Apr 16, 2002 9:50 pm

I'm going to close and lock this thread. Preempting another flame thread picking up where another left off.

Posts not pertaining to the original discussion have been removed. Should you feel the need, begin a new topic on the subject.

Kiaransalee

[This message has been edited by Kiaransalee (edited 04-16-2002).]

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