Caz is right

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
nubug
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Caz is right

Postby nubug » Wed Apr 24, 2002 10:48 am

it's not my style to post but... caz is right

although he is less than clear in stating it...

why should he, or anyone, give there 13 hours when they know they are 2nd, 3rd, or 4th in line for a "unbiased" (read: biased) handout.

the same ones that by default get a unbalanced share of eq also are guilty of not giving the group their 100%.

what they do have is political backing.

which to me is crap.

so, when you look at who evil sort and compare it to who good sort you now understand why

Nubug
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Wed Apr 24, 2002 1:55 pm

Hmm... I think I notice something.

You are doing it for the eq and not for the fun. Not that this is bad, but it makes it different.

Try to have fun =)
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Postby Koldaz » Wed Apr 24, 2002 2:16 pm

I think I'm going to laugh. Would you be playing if the mud administrators removed all of the equipment or turned it into junk? No. I see everyone talking about how they zone for the fun of it, but then they bid. The equipment does mean something. Its why people do zones and risk the time they put into leveling a character. Fun is a part of it, too. But the equipment does have meaning.

Koldar/Koldaz
Ilshadrial
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Postby Ilshadrial » Wed Apr 24, 2002 2:22 pm

Anyone who says they do not mud for the EQ is full of shit!

You are either in the game to play or you have a level 1 to talk to your old friends since you have been there and done that a few hundred times already.

Tiamat is the only exception I can really see to the mudding for fun concept, since there is very limited EQ in the zone, and she represents the highlight of the end of someones mudding career.



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Ilshad

"Your accomplishment is nothing compared to the glory that is Ilshadrial!!" Yayaril
Jegzed
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Postby Jegzed » Wed Apr 24, 2002 2:40 pm

My primary goals are not equipment.

I play primarily to conquer zones.

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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
Ilshadrial
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Postby Ilshadrial » Wed Apr 24, 2002 2:56 pm

What zones have you not conquered?

Bah! When you say conquered you mean, to destroy a zone over and over or what :P


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Ilshad

"Your accomplishment is nothing compared to the glory that is Ilshadrial!!" Yayaril
Gort
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Postby Gort » Wed Apr 24, 2002 3:03 pm

I mud for fun, equ is a bonus. There are many zones w/o enough equ for everyone in group to get a piece. In fact, there are only a few zones where a 15 man group will come close to each person getting something.

Am I dissapointed if I've been to the zone several times w/o getting anything, but if I had fun (and I pretty much always do even on spanks), then mission accomplished. This may explain why I don't have uber uber equ, but it will come. I'm patient.

Do I bid on equ, of course, even though I do what I do for fun, the equ is a nice perk, and some of it will even help me not be the redshirt. Do I often get it, not really, does this concern me? Not in the least.

Do the rich get richer? Ayup, that's life, in game or irl. You can take a couple of main views on this. A. I need to work on becoming rich, find out what rich folks did to become so, and emulate that. or. B. We need to bring everyone to a common level, viva la revolution! (the failed concept of communism)

Abilities are not common, desire, effort, discipline, skill are not all equal among people, its part of what makes us unique. There are those who are pre-disposed to excel, and those who just plain work at it. And there are those who are either satisfied w/ being average or whatever their status/ability is. Good for them. Some (like me) doggedly try to learn the lessons of life in hopes of becoming "rich". Others complain the system," the man ", or any number of things are holding them down. They tend to protest the "injustice" of the system rather than learning to work within it. VERY rarely are they successful in either changing the system or becoming "rich".

So, figure out your priorities, work to them. Keep the code of Bushido (always keep your death before you- live life to the fullest as you never know when you're going to die) and live w/ honor.


Toplack Frostbear *plugger*

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Jegzed
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Postby Jegzed » Wed Apr 24, 2002 3:36 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ilshadrial:
<B>What zones have you not conquered?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, several of the new zones I haven't even done yet, as I don't have that much time to play nowadays, and live in the wrong part of the world for lots of zoning as an evil.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ilshadrial:
<B>Bah! When you say conquered you mean, to destroy a zone over and over or what :P
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doing the zone flawlessly, finding the perfected tactics, finding fun stuff nobody else does.

I'm not saying that eq isn't important, but its not the primary goal.



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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
nubug
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Postby nubug » Wed Apr 24, 2002 4:01 pm

let me put it this way

why join a group, for fun, for eq, for whichever metric you chose, when you know you are seen as a second class citizen.
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Postby Todrael » Wed Apr 24, 2002 4:06 pm

[sarcasm]

You're right, Nubug. We should just view every single person we meet on the mud, no matter how long we've known them or how they've treated us, as just as good and just as useful and just as nice and friendly as our best friend of 20 years who knows every measure of the mud and plays his class as if he coded it himself, spending hundreds of playing hours zoning just so he can get you equip, helping out every time you're down, never complained about splits, and is overall the best person you've ever known.

[\sarcasm]

The above example is a little extreme, but it's what you're asking for, Nubug.

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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager

[This message has been edited by Todrael (edited 04-24-2002).]
Elseenas
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Postby Elseenas » Wed Apr 24, 2002 4:56 pm

I've actually always considered bidding more communist than handouts. Reason: bidding doesn't take into account concepts such as "loyalty" or "dependability." Handouts can take into account that you have done this run with that leader 5 times and have been helping the leader for the last six months when she needed you, bidding cannot.

In the end, handouts are inherently selfish: I am giving this to you because I know that it will help you help me when we run this zone again.

Personally, I never expect anything going into a zone. I don't do zones primarily for eq, honestly, I do them because I enjoy the game. Yes, the game does involve eq and affect ones enjoyment of it, but we could be going for the best eq in the game or the worst and I would still agree to go along.

Do the run when you know you won't get eq because, after awhile, your work will be rewarded. Do it also for fun and for the social aspects, then log the zone and pour over the logs to learn how to run it so that when it comes *your* turn to lead you will be ready.

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Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
Teyaha
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Postby Teyaha » Wed Apr 24, 2002 4:56 pm

nubug isn't a new player. he/she's been around for quite some time now this wipe. he/she has had gheal for what? 5 months now?

i'm sure he/she has been zoning a shitload too.

dont attempt to downplay the politics of the evils. we've lot a lot of GOOD players because of it. it exists, it's all around you.
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Postby Zrax » Wed Apr 24, 2002 5:01 pm

Some of them have even quit 5 or 6 times.
Teyaha
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Postby Teyaha » Wed Apr 24, 2002 5:29 pm

and somt quit and troll boards for 6 months.
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Postby Dalar » Wed Apr 24, 2002 6:24 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Koldaz:
<B>I think I'm going to laugh. Would you be playing if the mud administrators removed all of the equipment or turned it into junk? No. I see everyone talking about how they zone for the fun of it, but then they bid. The equipment does mean something. Its why people do zones and risk the time they put into leveling a character. Fun is a part of it, too. But the equipment does have meaning.

Koldar/Koldaz</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd like to add to this comment. If anyone truly zoned for fun only, why is the board of bragging rights still DSR only?
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Postby Todrael » Wed Apr 24, 2002 7:24 pm

Touk, if you'd note the names of people who post these types of threads, it's only been 4 people.

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Udarg
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Postby Udarg » Wed Apr 24, 2002 8:19 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jegzed:

I'm not saying that eq isn't important, but its not the primary goal.

[/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its a damn shame more evils don't have this outlook on things. Props to Jegzed. All the leetness, without the bullshit attitude that tends go along with it. Too bad others don't follow his example, you gotta wonder if there might not be a bigger player base on the evil side then. I know for a fact of at least 6 evils who have left recently over this bullshit.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ilshadrial:

"Your accomplishment is nothing compared to the glory that is Ilshadrial!!" Yayaril

[/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most of us know your accomplishments from back in the day Ilsha. No one will argue with you about that. But then again, most of us know that you were also one of the forerunners of the LEET attitude that helped cripple Sojourn in its previous forms (and once again is, for that matter). Play and contribute, or fade away. One of these days you're going to get so full of yourself that you may just choke on it.

Sorry this came out as a flame, I try really hard not to flame anyone about anything, but I just hate to see the same shit happen again. We've been down this road once before, I for one, didn't like where it lead us.

Feel free to flame me here, or email me. I can take it, I'm a big boy.

raar
old depok
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Postby old depok » Wed Apr 24, 2002 8:22 pm

i think I figured something out.

The judgment on your contribution does not come at the END of the zone. It comes before the zone starts. You should feel special because you were INVITED. This is the key.

I love to zone. I love to get EQ. I love to get EQ because I love to win and in the bidding system of EQ distribution you have to win.

The thing that is most important to me is getting asked though. I really like getting asked repeatedly. This means that the leader recognized my contribution in the last zone we did and I didn't screw up so badly that he/she remembers that only.

The whole point is, feel special for being asked. And make sure the leader knows that is how you feel. Maybe they will feel special for asking you. They should, they now have to put up with you for the next 2-12 hours!

Maybe this will change for me as I do more and more zones. I really hope not though. I would hate to be doing a zone for the EQ only. That truly would suck!
Ilshadrial
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Postby Ilshadrial » Wed Apr 24, 2002 8:37 pm

You must not really know me, I have never crippled Sojourn with my attitude, I role-played 100 percent of the time as an Evil Assassin. I since I didn't have to study when I was in College or Gradute School, I could spend 12 hours or more a day on the mud.

As far as my contributions, I have written a lot of zones, and about 4 more to come in very soon.

Even wasted my time writing an evil hometown.
Considering I hate evil races.

Oh and that quote I added in my Signature, is to remind me just how much Baratos or Yaya sucks! *wink*

Kevin


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Ilshad

"Your accomplishment is nothing compared to the glory that is Ilshadrial!!" Yayaril
Yayaril
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Postby Yayaril » Wed Apr 24, 2002 8:44 pm

Only for platinum.

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-Yayaril
Udarg
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Postby Udarg » Wed Apr 24, 2002 8:48 pm

My bad on the contribute or fade away part. Knew you had written zones, but last I heard you weren't playing. I try to stay away from the bbs as much as possible i.e. really bad temper, heh.

My apologies there.

raar
torkur
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Postby torkur » Wed Apr 24, 2002 9:09 pm

Bah,

1) Go to a zone.
2) Blow shit up. (Insert smile on own face here)
3) Thank warriors for the 100 rescues you got.
4) Maybe win eq, maybe next time, maybe do it just to help somebody out (dragon fights especially.)
5) Turn off computer with big smile on face and go to bed.

Is it really that hard to see soj3 that way?
Teyaha
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Postby Teyaha » Wed Apr 24, 2002 9:55 pm

i just realized something though...

holy crap!

when's the 'teyaha is right' thread gonna start soon? i swear it's snowing in san jose right now!

hehe j/k
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Postby Gromikazer » Wed Apr 24, 2002 11:23 pm

I've got a noble Idea. Instead of whinning on the BBS like little girls, why don't you tell the leader you don't want to go zoning with them anymore.

There are some people who play this game who day in and day out make the game so much fun for me, I'd like to thank them, but there are too many.


Complain about a split, even though I try and be semi-fair and watch how you 'mysteriously' aren't invited back next time.

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Gromikazer Terrorforge -Veldruk- Orbdrin D'oloth
Ormiss
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Postby Ormiss » Wed Apr 24, 2002 11:37 pm

Seriously, people need to stop whining on the boards because they don't get handed equipment in zones. Maybe it's unfair, maybe it's not - who cares? The bottom line is that the leader of the group owns you for as long as you're in his or her group.

Don't like how that leader runs things? Switch leader.
Don't think there are any other leaders you could group with? Lead yourself.
Can't lead yourself? I suggest you stop whining or vote with your absence.

Who's going to care if you whine on the boards? Noone will give you more equipment for it, that's fairly certain, so save yourself the embarassment, and wait until you've cooled down to post about how you were passed over in zone handout.
nubug
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Postby nubug » Thu Apr 25, 2002 1:45 am

I guess im not that guy in the corner in highschool that is "just happy to be there" when invited to a party by the "cool" people. Any self respecting person wants more than to just be used.

And Mr. Leader Sir, that decision has already been made. For multiple leaders. Who left whose guild?

Why is it that handouts aren't declared prior to doing a zone?

And Todrael I don't think the "uber-afk" or "I will not help to do that one mob" or "you didn't follow my protocol for asking for resses" or "spamming gheals = shaman" or "I have a high dam roll therefore I am" or "I will not accept a revive and demand to be dragged out of a zone" or "my class is more important than yours" or "help cr you? haha you died sucks to be you" deserve anything either. However, I don't think someone should get a handout "just because" either.

I've been the one that put in the full 13 hours and went to the zone from the start to finish each and everytime with the same leader just to watch everyone that did the same except me get the elite eq. No thanks.

Bottom line, I support people that know how to play. And if their performance for THAT ZONE was sufficient... well cool. If 10 zones ago they were good but now they lack, well, not cool.

I guess I propose a hybrid handout/dice system. Perhaps I will do that myself when I lead. Next wipe.

And for everyone squeeling about "don't play for the eq man" it's not that black and white. No one plays 100% for eq, or 100% for whatever their metric. Its grey. And when I see consistent lopsided handouts well its not 100% about eq. its also about respect and greed.

Anyways, to each their own. Adios.
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Postby Baikalisan » Thu Apr 25, 2002 2:38 am

Can we have a new forum just for whining?

That way i can look around and not have to read this stuff!

Can't we all just get along!?

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Baikalisan - Valsharess Elg'Caress - Orbdrin D'oloth
Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Apr 25, 2002 3:03 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gromikazer:
<B>I've got a noble Idea. Instead of whinning on the BBS like little girls, why don't you tell the leader you don't want to go zoning with them anymore.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I beg your pardon, but when I was a little girl I did NOT whine. The kind of whining you speak of comes straight from the testicles.
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Thu Apr 25, 2002 3:10 am

Flame much?
...

Touk and depok, thank you =)
In re: eq, I hope that wasn't directed at me.
I mean, it looked like it, from the placement, but...

*logs on to get more ppl killed*
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Postby gokk » Thu Apr 25, 2002 5:04 am

So annoying to read about whiners.

If you don't like it, why not form up your own group and lead it? Then you decide how you want to split the equipment, hand-outs or bids? You can even claim eq for yourself before starting if that's what floats your boat.

Oh, you don't want to send out the dozens of tells to people? You don't know how to lead the zone? You don't even know how to GET to the zone (hard to believe but it's true)? You don't know how to CR the zone? You don't want to deal with replacing people who have to leave early or have an emergency? You don't want to lead day in and day out? You don't want to do numerous runs for necessities (example: fire-prot eq) to hand out to people who inevitably don't have it to do the zone? Or to CR the zone? You don't want to deal with people then NOT returning that eq afterwards? You don't want to deal with IDIOTS who whine afterwards about not getting eq? You don't want to deal with IDIOTS who refuse to go to Zone A unless you'll take them to Zone B afterwards because they want eq from Zone B and can't use anything from Zone A? You don't want to deal with the the all too common situation of deciding, "Man, Troll here has zoned with me the last two weeks and still hasn't gotten this spanky weapon but this Drow I haven't zoned with much DID spend the same amount of time on this zone this run, hmmm what to do what to do?"

It's ricockulous if you're not actively leading to complain. Nothing is stopping you from forming up and doing things your way. If you'd rather do bids, then lead and do bids. Same goes for hand-outs.

Why not DO something about your situation instead of posting on a message board about poor poor me, I didn't get that eq, now I'll never be a Jedi Knight *CRY*.

Disgusted.
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Postby Malacar » Thu Apr 25, 2002 5:33 am

The only thing that I truly find upsetting in this thread, is how everyone casually tosses around the word 'whiner'.

Just because they don't do it exactly your way.

Just because they haven't had the experience you have.

Just because they aren't as intelligent as you.

Just because they have a learning disability.

Just because they are given bad advice.

***************
Does NOT give you the right to call them whiners. Perhaps they do whine. Maybe, just maybe, if folks on this mud adopted a better attitude towards some of these types of posts, they will occur less frequently.

Ever heard of the phrase: If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem?

Think it fits? I certainly do.

I goofed up, and broke a rule a while back. Rather than do oldskool 'I will eat you' style punishment, I was given time as a newbie helper. I hated it at first. It took away from my attention in zones. Then I stopped to help a couple of newbies. Then a couple of more. Then I tutored one through tells a little. I began to learn that newbies aren't the suck part of the mud. 'You should know everything' attitudes are. Some of these newbies I truly have some hope for at later levels. Some I don't. Some disregard advice, and learn the hard way. They choose how they learn, I can't force them to do anything.

The long and short of it is this... I am going to permanently stay on as a Newbie Helper now, if the gods will allow me. I get something out of it. A feeling that I am not so superior, just lucky I have been in all the groups I have, and learned my lessons through the school of hard knocks. I've also been fortunate to zone under some of the (arguably) best leaders this mud has seen.

Don't be so quick to jump all over folks and call them whiners. It doesn't prove a point, and frankly, I am willing to bet a lot of people stop reading your post when they see the first line or two is inane flaming. That's why so many of MY posts got disregarded in the past. Instead of keeping my mouth shut, or simply trying to post without swear words, or name calling... I regressed to my own childhood, and lashed out blindly. It accomplished nothing other than an arguement or two. I regret all of them now, but realize that through those, I learned.

Just as the newbies will learn from your wisdom, if you care to share it. Posts like the one that started this thread will slowly disappear as we elder players that have a vast amount of knowledge, start to constructively pass it on.

*Steps off his soapbox*

This post was not directed at any particular one person. Nor at any particular group. It's just my rant on what I think is some of the issues that cause posts like these. If you take it personally, take the flaming offline, and feel free to slam me in game. Image

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Malacar - omg ymir!
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Postby Gromikazer » Thu Apr 25, 2002 6:01 am

You joined OD the day I led Tiamat, in hopes you would get a tia item of your choice. I am not bought so easily, and so when I didn't give you the item of your choice you decided to leave OD. Please don't pretend to be more noble then you are Nubug.

I play the game the best I know how to play. I lead zones so that people can get eq. More then 3/4th of the zones I lead I get nothing, but i deal with all the crap, because thats what I do... I'm a leader. I've taken up that roll, and I don't lightly drop it because a person or two decided to flame me on the BBS. Btw, you'll be happy to know I don't split eq anymore, I just lead zones period. Someone else always splits.

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Gromikazer Terrorforge -Veldruk- Orbdrin D'oloth

[This message has been edited by Gromikazer (edited 04-25-2002).]
Zrax
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Postby Zrax » Thu Apr 25, 2002 6:33 am

I cant believe this is such a problem now. Maybe I just didnt see it but i never noticed this in the past.
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Postby sok » Thu Apr 25, 2002 7:51 am

You know sometimes I complain about folks not wanting to zone. I do not understand why someone does not want to zone for the fun of it. I consider zoning the fun part of the mud. The people here are cool and I get along with most; however, even if most of the people I knew on here stop playing, I would still zone. Of course it would be with different people.

That being said, I totally understand the frustration Caz & Nubug must've experience. I think people only want a chance. Zoning is fun, but knowing consistently that you will not get eq is frustrating.

I tell people eq is nothing, it's knowledge that is everything. I have a lot of knowledge about many of the zones here, not all but most. So eq at the beginning is not a big deal, because I can lead the zone and get the eq I want. But image the feeling when you are unable to lead zones, but you are a good follower. You spend the time exping and working on your skills so you can zone, then spend that time zoning, but know that you will get a 2nd rate equipment, if that.

Touk I understand what you are saying with 4 man jot etc. I still trying to get a 10 man invoker jot/tf trip. That's going to rock, those force missile gonna blow things up. But you really can't do these fun zones stuff if you dont have the eq.

However, the first time you do jot this wipe, was to get the gear to do other zones. You dont really think about taking a 4 man group to do jot, cuz you know u will get spanked hard and people might still not have ress, etc. Anyways, I assume you are pretty set eq-wise, so you can afford to do zone just for fun/challenge of it.

Not to say Caz or Nubug has sucky eq, but they probably have mid-high lvl eq. eq from big zones but the the best eq from those zones. Image you a caster type and you spend the time doing tf, not once but continually, but never got a chance for the eldritch. You got handed down 1st a tit ring, then upgrade to ele. ring. but after that nothing. you get the junk stuff, elven plate, circlet, necklace, earring/claws, etc, etc. but you never get a chance at the eldritch.

These things build little by little, until something finally snap, and you end up posting on the bbs your frustration. Now it seems like you are the bad, greedy, selfish whiner. They have no idea of the frustration that you endured, all they see is someone who didn't get the best item and is out to cause trouble for the leaders.

I'm a leader, but I'm not a good follower. I understand my role is more (priviledge?) but believe it or not it's not greater than the only enchanter in group, or a ghealer, or lich, or the tank, or the rogue, or the bard, well actually the bard suck atm *wink* but you get the point. Just because I can deal with the headache, actually leading is one of the reason I mud, does not mean I can treat others like second class citizens.

I dont think most leaders attempt to treat other as second class citizen; however, when they look out for their own it creates that feeling. Treating others with respect shouldn't be reserve for people you know a long time.

I know there are whiners out there, but not everyone that has a complain is a whiner. And i dont think people need to prove they are worthy to have a chance to bid on a item.

Sok

ps If items aren't a big deal why can't they have a chance at it?
kiryan
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Postby kiryan » Thu Apr 25, 2002 7:57 am

someone once told me

guess i dont get anything unless i lead

so he did. guarantee you no-one ever said he was eq centric or only in it for eq. noone ever complained about all the eq he acquired. he complained to the gods about group x getting more than group y did for the near equivalent of a god run event, but i dont think he was ever called a loot whore.

my thread was not about splits. nubug and elseenas were exactly right though i did a piss poor job of communicating. my main point was im not a loot whore; i dont play for eq though its a nice bonus, i dont bitch about splits. my second point is that many are rather eq centric but are not viewed negatively due to who they are or who they hang out with. it would be nice if folks stop suckin on each other's wangs and take a look at what really goes on and think about whether its right. im a loot whore but the guy with 3 stacked alts isnt? yes there are exceptions, but come on people.

then again, why should mud society be any different than rl.
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Postby Corth » Thu Apr 25, 2002 8:39 am

This topic comes up over and over again.. and I'm starting to think its more than just about 'whining' (despite the fact that its the most repeated word in the thread).

You have two sides here. The 'clique' (for lack of a better word) and those other people who arent members of it. This clique is typically a guild, but not always. Its a group of people that play together fairly regularly. But the clique isn't perfect because they need outsiders to help them do what they like to do.. tear up zones.

Now we all know that this game is heavily eq dependent. Often, your ability to play this game is less dependent upon your skill then it is on the eq you wear. Nobody wants it this way, but its how the game is structured.

The clique has a very large interest, when doing zones, in seeing to it that they get the prime pieces of eq. To them, it is wasteful when someone from the outside gets it because they don't group with that person very often. That person will go off and group with other people and make use of the eq that the clique spent time getting them. Instead, the clique wants the eq to remain in the clique so that they can further their goal of tearing up zones.

Thus, systems are setup to insure that people in the clique get the eq. Be it handouts, or dicing between people that 'deserve' it. Its structured in such a way that if not all the time, most of the time, someone in the core group will get the spanky item. Unfortunately for the outsider, the system is stacked against him. To this extent, Nubug makes a good point. He is treated by the clique like a second class citizen. The question I guess is whether he chose to be a second class citizen or not. Whether he was used, or whether he knowingly went along with something that would benefit others.

Nobody can be 'used' if they voluntarily go along with the system, knowing in advance that the system is stacked to benefit other people. The system that the evils have for distributing eq among their core group is completely justifiable so long as the rules of the game are made clear to everyone. If Nubug knew that the system was stacked against him (i.e. he was informed that items would be handed out), and he voluntarily went along with the group, he has absolutely no basis for complaint. At best, his post could be a complaint against the system... at worst, just an obnoxious flame against people who were up front with him and told him where he stood.

On the other hand, if this system is carried out under the table.. with winks and nods, and at the last second the leader says that Nubug doesn't get a shot at the item, and this is a big surprise to Nubug, then I think the group used Nubug... and using a person is morally repugnant.

I have no opinion which of the above may have happened. I wasn't there, I dont group with these people. I think everyone involved knows deep inside whether they were right or wrong. In any event, you need to remember that although you are sitting alone in your room on the computer but you are dealing with real life human beings. It is morally wrong to use someone for your own ends, just as it is morally wrong to slander someone. Either Nubug was used, or Nubug slandered the people that he agreed to group with.

And this topic just doesn't go away...

Corth

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Goddamned slippery mage.
Jegzed
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Postby Jegzed » Thu Apr 25, 2002 9:01 am

RE: Corth.

Evils have been doing handouts to the "most deserving" for as long as I've played here. Its not as if its a secret.



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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
Ormiss
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Postby Ormiss » Thu Apr 25, 2002 10:36 am

The thing is though, the evils seem to explain their system every single time someone asks or complains about it. Todrael even wrote in his "guide to getting eq in handouts" that you should ask the leader before the zone how it's going to be split. If people ask the leaders and the leaders lie, well that's one thing, but although I have no knowledge in that department, it seems unlikely.

The problem here is obviously that some people want to zone but have to group with people that split in a way that they don't want them to do it in. The reason seems quite clear; few people have the knowledge/skill/friends to lead a zone, especially Tiamat. So there really aren't any choices, aside from siding with the 'clique.'

On the other hand, if Nubug (as Gromikazer said) joined his guild the same day, and then left it (*flinch*) the same day after a Tiamat run.. *shrug*

If it really is impossible for people who are not members of the clique to zone due to lack of people who are willing to follow them, then that would seem to be the consensus, and in a way, the democratic choice made by those who zone. At least on the evil side..

[This message has been edited by Ormiss (edited 04-25-2002).]
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Postby cherzra » Thu Apr 25, 2002 11:03 am

There was once a shaman who came along on his very first trip to tf/scorps/seers. He was in his mid 40's. The split went as it always did, I asked what everyone wanted and handed out based on how often they came to those zones without getting anything. The one with the highest amount of times got it, or it was diced if 2 ppl had the same attendance record.

There were a dozen people there who had come anywhere between 2 and 5 times without getting anything, both to TF and to scorps/seers. So a few of them got lucky and got rewarded for coming along many times without getting anything. The shaman got a hand down ring, a 55hp ring that was a 30hp improvement over what he had. Lo and behold he starts to bitch about getting hand downs, about the leader sucking, about unfair this and unfair that. ->moron

If I'm correct it's the same shaman who started this thread. If not, then my apologies, but if it is... geez shut up already. Suck it up and accept the way things go.

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Ilshadrial
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Postby Ilshadrial » Thu Apr 25, 2002 11:29 am

So what are your guys thoughts on end epic quest items?

Take erlan for example, you guys finish get a stack of items, how many items can the person who did the quest take without making everyone else that helped kill the "last fight mobs" get?

Should it be an even split even though the people helping killing the end mobs never helped look for rares or helped kill them, ect?

I would like to know the thoughts people have on this.

Kevin

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Ilshad

"Your accomplishment is nothing compared to the glory that is Ilshadrial!!" Yayaril
Jegzed
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Postby Jegzed » Thu Apr 25, 2002 11:52 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ilshadrial:
<B>So what are your guys thoughts on end epic quest items?

Take erlan for example, you guys finish get a stack of items, how many items can the person who did the quest take without making everyone else that helped kill the "last fight mobs" get?

Should it be an even split even though the people helping killing the end mobs never helped look for rares or helped kill them, ect?

I would like to know the thoughts people have on this.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Entirely up to the guy doing the quest.



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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
kiryan
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Postby kiryan » Thu Apr 25, 2002 12:59 pm

ilshadrial,
entirely up to the guy who got the tattoo.


corth good post. the problem lies in the perceived or real lack of option and visibility. there are only a few trusted leaders, the leaders hand out the eq in roughly the same manner to roughly the same people. leaders have no visibility on what each other leader has given the same player. you cant tell one leader to piss off because youll get labeled a loot whore and never go to another zone. lead yourself? not everyone can be a leader.

im not bitching about the system. we all know its not perfect, but most like it better than bidding. however, it can get seriously out of whack and spawn nepotism.

I think people should start thinking about how "fair" splits have been recently. perhaps a few people are just bitchy and feel like they got a raw deal on trip x. perhaps splits have been rather biased as l33t players start making and eqing hoards of alts.

i doubt anyone can answer the question a matter of factly, however, we could all have a little more consideration for how each other feels. just because l33t level 50 x already has l33t eq y doesnt mean he doesnt "need" it or want it any less than the level 40 who is doing zone z for the first time. Why can't the level 40 get the l33t ex y once in a while?
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Postby nubug » Thu Apr 25, 2002 1:24 pm

No Gromikazer you are not a bad person, its not about that. You lead well. You're gregarious. But you are biased when you consult your 'eq scrolls' as you once put it.

To those that post about people whining, well stop whining yourself. and look at the total times I've posted.

Cherza. I went on 8+ zones with you, and got 2 items. a 55hp ring that was mage only (nubug = shaman) and a warrior mask (a couple weeks later I got a rogue item, no joke). Woot! Only then I sent you a tell, you responded "You shouldn't complain about how EQ is handed out" and I said screw this and decided not to follow you. Yes massa I will take it and I will not complain.

So I started following others, It doesn't matter who, and it didn't always happen with everyone. And when I saw the same 15-20 or so core people getting the cream of the crop, I stoped following them.

I was asked to join OD. Then after Tia I had a dejavu of 'the clique' getting all the booty, again. 4 handouts became 5. and I once again said "screw this!' and left. No other choice really.

Corth yes I knew that eq was going to be handed out. Whenever I would ask who is getting what the reply would be "I don't know yet" or no reply. And I would just wait and see how it would turn out. When I wouldn't get what I wanted 90% of the time I would bite my toung. When it became a trend, well..

And to those that loosly throw the term newbie around, please... Just because you don't know who I or others used to play doesn't mean I haven't been here 6 something years. Words like newbie and twink and whining and whatever cease to mean anything if you don't use them right.

I think there was someone else I was gonna respond to but I think I don't care anymore. I wish you all luck in knowing and doing what you want and having the pebbels to go after it.

I probably won't respond anymore so feel free to open fire, free shots.

later
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Postby Teyaha » Thu Apr 25, 2002 3:11 pm

the handout system worked when it was just kanthas leading and there were so very few evils.

it's not the case now.

someone should try to contact kanthas and ask him how he did it, because no one complained about his splits - in fact they were always praised. but methinks he kept better track of who when where when than leaders do now,simply because there's too many to track nowadays.

handouts are biased. theonly purely non biased eq splitting system is one that's 100% random
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Postby Zrax » Thu Apr 25, 2002 3:14 pm

Just finished talking to Kanthas, he said the secret was not taking whiney bitches like you zoning teyaha.
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Postby Wargo » Fri Apr 26, 2002 3:13 am

I would like to expand Corth's point a little...

What happens on the evil side is that there's the "clique", which are long time veterans and devoted evils who started early this wipe, and "the others." Because the "clique" has worked well together so far, they formed up into 2 main evil guilds, CC and OD. The new comers are at a disadvantage because they have not been tested. It's not to say that they don't have a chance. Take CC for example, we only have 25 members and there are plenty of them inactive = plenty of rooms for new worthy recruits. OD, last I heard, was somewhere between 10-20.

Now take a look at the situation with Nubug and Rachaz. Nubug started way before Rachaz among the evils. Both were good players and both were given a chance. Rachaz joined CC after second Tia trip and so far he is happy. Nubug joined OD and left on the same day according to Gromi. You don't see Rachaz complaining, right?

What is the problem here? The problem is in the mentality. Lazz/Gromi and Sok lead 2 different types of groups and require different mentality. Follow whichever leader that suits your style. There is really no need to complain. If what you want is to fit in to Lazz/Gromi's groups, then it is you who has to change.

Take me for example, I didn't play Soj2 and I was a full time goodie during Toril. I had an outcast cleric and a snake cleric prior but never did put in enough time. So this incarnation is the first time I spend the time with the evils. To say that it was easy adjusting the play style is to lie. What I did was to make sure that I contributed enough to the community so I could earn the respect. I worked my ass off to become one of the 4 ressers on the evils side for a long time. I was the most consistently online resser. And in total I probably ressed more corpses than Zipalodok even though he was the first resser. I was also consistently a spank survivor to save the group. I'm sure most would agree with me when I say that what I have achieved so far is by no means an accident.

In conclusion, before you start a whine/complaint/suggestion/thought, ask yourself, have you contributed enough? Don't answer it. Keep contributing. When you get that piece of prime EQ you have been coveting, then you have your answer. That's how I got mine.

Yssilk

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Aedaris
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Postby Aedaris » Fri Apr 26, 2002 5:39 am

I think Sok summed it up perfectly.....

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Postby Bopple » Fri Apr 26, 2002 6:35 am

biased split is inevitable in handout system. there are too many ppl for the best stuffs. so leader should choose one for the best gear. but who the leader would choose? assuming everyone did very good and spent the same time and the leader had no malig intentions, prolly the most famous/ernest player, the leader himself, or his best friend. everyone would do the same thing if he were a leader and decided to do handout split.

yeah, you might well get mad with the split. for you spent the same time and energy. but don't stay angry too long, for none but you would get hurt for that.

Ssifal
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Postby Teyaha » Fri Apr 26, 2002 3:12 pm

be sure to let us konw when you have something constructive to add to any post besides attacking me, zrax.

are you suck an asshole in real life? didnt your mommy teach you to play nice? or did she teach you to troll a board of a game you havent played since dark age of camelot was release.....

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