Common Courtesy for Other Players!

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Kaede
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Common Courtesy for Other Players!

Postby Kaede » Sat May 18, 2002 3:29 pm

The only things that could ruin the fun of this wonderful mud are the inconsiderate behavior and indifferent attitudes of some of our fellow players.

If a person was soloing a mob for experience, would you take your group in and kill the mob while that person was spelling up for the fight? Of course you wouldn’t. That person was there first and had the intent of killing the mob and was making the proper preparations. You would move on to the next mob or wait for the next pop.

Why should it be different if the mob has equipment? The rule of “first person there gets it” is just common sense. If that person is there before you, he/she probably has an equal or greater interest in the item, and you should be a good sport and either secede or help out. And if indeed you offer to help out, don’t try to use little tricks to obtain the item for yourself when it’s done. The only exceptions to this rule would be if that person was camping there every boot to twink the mob or had more than enough of that specific item, in which case is actually another equally serious problem…

What truly disgusts me is when people ignore this golden rule and decide to compete against the first person there for the item. Just because you may have an advantage over that other person (level, class, race, experience of fighting that mob, friends/guilds) does not mean you are entitled to that mob. Even if your interest in that mob is for someone else does not mean you are justified to it because of the “selflessness” of your actions. And just because you may be more capable of killing the mob or can get help faster does not mean you get to act like a bully and steal the candy from what you perceive as the disadvantaged little kid.

After all, was the other person there first? YES.
Did that person have the intent of killing that mob? YES.
Was that person making the proper preparations (i.e. asking people for help)? YES.

Why then would you choose to ignore these facts and attempt to claim that mob for yourself? Is a piece of colored text worth the distress caused and possible conflict involved? What makes it so important that you can’t just wait till next time to get it? Even if it is a rare, should you succumb to your own greed and screw another person over? If you do, you are only encouraging such behavior from others next time around.

Even if you don’t really know that other person, or realize that you will probably never group with him or her, does not mean you can steal their kill. Just because it is not a written rule in Sojourn 3 does not mean you should take advantage of that fact and ignore this truth. You are only unnecessarily adding to the tension in this game. A player is a person, regardless of which side they play on or which guild they are in, and should be treated with the same respect as you would want from others. Zones follow a “first group there” rule, it should only make sense that individual mobs should follow a “first person there” rule.

And just because you are a member of the group and not the leader does not mean you are not responsible for your actions. If you willingly aid a player who is competing for a mob against someone else who was there first and perhaps more rightfully entitled to that mob, you are also contributing directly to this problem.

Several of us have been here a long time and should know better. Several of us are more than old enough to act maturely. The worst part is how some of the more prominent figures will turn into hypocrites when the right string of colored text comes along. For such players I have absolutely no respect because they obviously have none for others, yet even I still know better than to stoop to their level of playing.

My reason for this post is because I’ve recently seen a lot of this occurring. This problem has always existed and I ask you all to reconsider your actions if they negatively impact others. Is there such importance in a silly item that you can get another time that you should ignore doing the mature and fair thing? A game is only fun if all players can enjoy it. There are a lot of great people who play on this mud, why not try being one of them? Image

-Kiyre
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Postby Jenera » Sat May 18, 2002 7:47 pm

Very nicely said.

I give two thumbs up!

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Yayaril
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Postby Yayaril » Sat May 18, 2002 8:32 pm

I think the only rule for this scenario is: if the mob has wounds and you made them- then it's yours. Otherwise, it's fair game. GAME ON!

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Postby Daz » Sat May 18, 2002 8:37 pm

Well, if some guy spent 30 minutes walking to a mob, spends 10 minutes getting spelled up and his spells ready, and is about to attack, you would walk in and kill that mob, and consider yourself a wonderful guy for doing it. Way to ignore the original posts' intent completely.

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Postby Thrand » Sat May 18, 2002 9:08 pm

'Was that person making the proper preparations (i.e. asking people for help)? YES.'

Ah er huh ?

I hope ur not suggesting that someone who cant solo the mob, has some claim on the mob because they asked some people who are busy atm to help him kill a mob?

Just standing next to a mob doesnt make it urs.

I'm all for being nice, i even think its the best policy, but it doesnt included falling for the, 'oh my groups on its way ploy'.

Of course i dont know if this was the case here. Image

ezza/nula

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Postby kiryan » Sun May 19, 2002 12:04 am

i think the only rule is first group capable to do the mob gets to do it. not first person to scratch it.
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Postby Kifle » Sun May 19, 2002 12:05 pm

I think what he was tring to say was, some people dont have the number of high lvl friends, or cant just acc: "hey, come help me kill alphabet". If they get to zog or something, i think you should give them a bit of time to find a group, or help them kill it. It is the nice thing to do. And I think that was the whole point of the original post.

That first group, not person rule to a mob is there just in case both parties want to be assholes. It would be wonderful if we didnt need such rules and people would just be considerate to other people....even if you need that item or want it.

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Jurdex
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Postby Jurdex » Sun May 19, 2002 4:58 pm

If you're there and capable of killing a mob, then by all means I generally wouldn't attempt to kill it. If you had a pretty decent group and were only short a person or two, again, I wouldn't attempt to kill it.

However, this notion that just because you entered a room with a mob before me (or anyone else) somehow says it means more to you or you deserve it more is folly. If I get to a job interview before the next guy, but he shows up and is better prepared before the interviewer, then he is going to get the job over me.

I do believe in courtesy, and I think everyone should attempt to provide such on a more regular basis, but to think first = rights is downright silly.

Note: there are a few rares I would not take regardless of the situation because of their unique rareness. IE: Shijin, thunderbeast, dwarf mercenary in IC, etc

Dornax
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Postby moritheil » Sun May 19, 2002 5:35 pm

The problem with that is, how can you be sure someone can or can't solo something? I mean obviously one person is not going to solo imix. But, if you recall something that happened to Lili, it turned out she was capable of soloing in runs a mob that may normally take a group to do.

Would you ask? That seems proper.

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Kaede
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Postby Kaede » Sun May 19, 2002 8:44 pm

My post really referred to two scenarios that happen all the time.

The first is when you have the capability to kill the mob every time whereas the other person doesn't and has to call for help. Why not just let that other guy who was there first get it this time, since you can do it any other time?

The second scenario really occurs when rares load and groups are needed. Say Zog loaded and a high level warrior is standing there. You know he is probably trying his hardest to get a group down there, and he verifies it when you ask. But instead you choose to ignore him and have your friends welled in to take the kill. What if he was equally as discourteous as you, and seeing that his group will be late decides to kill Yasmine before your own group arrives and claim her diadem for an invoker instead just to prevent you from finishing it?

These are the types of cases I am referring to - when you know the other person is trying real hard to get help but regardlessly you choose to ignore that fact for the sake of your own personal gain.

Of course you don't have to be nice, acting like a cool guy isn't in the rules and a lot of people demonstrate it. Discourteous behavior will only lead to further discourteous behavior, and such actions are entirely unnecessary in a game meant to be fun.

-Kiyre
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Postby Teyaha » Sun May 19, 2002 8:45 pm

kifle made the best point.

not everyone has a large group of high level friends. sometimes you find the rare, then ask whoever's on to help you kill it. be stupid to ask whoever's on to help you kill it BEFORE You find it.

is why i dont hunt rares.
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Postby Jurdex » Sun May 19, 2002 9:02 pm

Kiyre, you still haven't said why it is unfair or discourteous to kill something when you have just as much right to it as the guy who might have gotten to the mob five seconds earlier.

I don't personally hunt many rares, but for the folks that do, I don't see how finding something first somehow means they deserve something more.

By the way, that Zog example is a bad one considering it is illegal for someone to screw you over like that (by killing Yasmine while you're fighting Zog).

Also, Moritheil, if someone can solo the mob, generally they would already be doing so when you arrived.

Basically I agree courtesy is a great policy, but I don't necessarily see why first = more important.

Dornax
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Kaede
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Postby Kaede » Sun May 19, 2002 9:30 pm

Dornax,

Is first more important? Not really. But how do most things work in life? First person in line has priority over second.

I'm suggesting to avoid unnecessary resentment that you apply this concept to mobs. For some players the only advantage they might have was the fact that they got there first. Are you implying that they should never get the mob merely because they don't have the guild hook-ups or twink knowledge that you might have?

And if you just get there a few seconds later, then no this does not apply. I mean when you get there several moments later and know that the other person has been trying to get help. My basic point emphasized upon this type of action, where you knowingly compete against the other person that has been trying to get help before you arrived. It is this behavior that is discourteous, in my opinion.

My Zog example was fine, read it again more carefully.

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Jurdex
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Postby Jurdex » Sun May 19, 2002 10:01 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Dornax,
Is first more important? Not really. But how do most things work in life? First person in line has priority over second.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So because many things in life are based on first come first served the mud should be as well? No thanks!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I'm suggesting to avoid unnecessary resentment that you apply this concept to mobs. For some players the only advantage they might have was the fact that they got there first. Are you implying that they should never get the mob merely because they don't have the guild hook-ups or twink knowledge that you might have?</font>


First, if you are courteous to other players, they can and often do still resent you. All one can do is be as nice about it as possible, but they still have the right to do it even if they come later. Well, if they were there first and they tried to get a group to kill it, that was their advantage. They exercised it. It did not work. So player Bob comes along and exercises his advantage, and he perhaps does muster a group to kill it. Again, how is this wrong? I don't see how it is unless he's a jerk about it. Also, where did my name come up in any of this discussion? Yes, I am a part of a guild, and I have a great deal of knowledge, but I don't see the relevance in this case. I started out as a newbie and took my lumps the same as anyone. I've learned and done things anyone else can if they so desire.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">And if you just get there a few seconds later, then no this does not apply. I mean when you get there several moments later and know that the other person has been trying to get help. My basic point emphasized upon this type of action, where you knowingly compete against the other person that has been trying to get help before you arrived. It is this behavior that is discourteous, in my opinion.</font>


Ah, so now it is your opinion that it is discourteous! See? It goes back to my statement that you can be as courteous as can be and still be resented by another player. Why should Bob wait possibly another RL week just so Bill (who for all he knows is farming the item) can muster a group to get it?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">My Zog example was fine, read it again more carefully.</font>


Perhaps it was, but I would still discuss it with the Gods if it was done to me. It would be circumventing the rules of the game.

Dornax
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Corth
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Postby Corth » Mon May 20, 2002 7:24 am

heh,

Gosh is this really difficult? If someone finds something, and they're looking for help with it... help them?

Corth

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Kaede
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Postby Kaede » Mon May 20, 2002 8:13 am

Hey Dornax, you keep reading me wrong... When I say "you" I mean anyone, not all are out to personally attack others on the BBS =P.

When I said guild hook-ups, I mean anyone who is advantaged with a guild.
When I said twink knowledge, it means you know how to twink (solo) the fight so that you don't need a group for it.

And as I stated in my first post, this wouldn't apply if they were "farming" the item as you put it.

And yes, it is discourteous in MY opinion. Several people wait months and still yield the item to the first one there. If you'd rather not wait for the next time and proceed to take the kill, its your choice. That other guy will most likely resent you for it, but no big deal, right? But if you let the other guy get it and maybe even help out, I'm sure he or she will appreciate it very much and you will be thought of as a generous person. In the long run respect from that player might be worth more than a string of text.

I think I have a very simple concept here. I'm not demanding for anyone to follow this policy, but I am suggesting it for all to consider. Afterall, some of the more disliked players on the mud are disliked for this reason alone...

-Kiyre
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Postby Karikhan » Mon May 20, 2002 9:47 am

1) is the mob hurt?
yes??? dont touch it
no?? send tell out of courtsey .. spank

2) are you spelling up or out memming?
spelling up??? wait to see if person can solo
memming out?? they are trying to solo ... wait to see if they need help

3) dont exp groups typically send tells?? hey spanky ... you killing this mob??' should apply here too ... i know we do it ....

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Postby kiryan » Mon May 20, 2002 9:57 am

killing yasmine for diadem is illegal. omg i highly doubt that.

you could say person x should wait till seashells was quested first, but if it rebooted person x is sol. you gonna compensate him in that situation. if your not willing to, then you have no business telling him how to go about his questing.

course we all know what the intent of slaying yasmine is, but id like to see you try and prove it, and id like to see an imm take action stiffer than a slap on the wrist.

p.s. if gods dont want that happening they should change one of the quests or the rules.
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Postby Gort » Mon May 20, 2002 2:20 pm

Courtesy, like Sense, is rarely Common. I agree with being courteous as much as possible, and have only a couple times had a rare "jumped" from me, in both cases I was working on getting help, in both cases they had it with them. Was I upset? At the time, yes, a few minutes later, not so much. As I also realized its just a piece of text.

Would I have liked it more if they'd helped me? Sure! Would I have thought more highly of them? You bet. Am I never gonna speak to them because of this one act? I stopped holding it against them about 5 minutes after it happened, the only reason it took that long, is they were some of the people I'd asked for help doing it and they refused me.

Now I just ask friends, they were just people on that were higher level than me, and I knew had the skills to help.

Toplack * Be nice... untill its time to not be nice * Frostbear

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Postby Jurdex » Mon May 20, 2002 3:11 pm

I think it is most certainly wrong to go kill the mob if you learned about it from that person who is sitting there trying to do it. That is just downright lame.

However, if someone independently finds a rare and is able to do it first, then I say more power to them. My opinion is that this is not discourteous, but rather quite fair.

Also, Kiryan, if I asked the person sitting there trying to do yasmine what he wanted it for and he said shells, and said he couldn't get a group for it then killed it when I got a group for it claiming it was for swarm, you're darn right I'd ask for staff intervention. :-)

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Postby Gorkl » Mon May 20, 2002 3:40 pm

Well My stance is this. I guess it doesn't really matter cause I'm not uber here like I am in everquest. The general rule in this situation is....

If there is a person claiming a mob and has the forces there to kill it.

If it becomes a race, the first person with forces there and engages mob.

Now this is totally without any respect to anyone who is there before you.

If you have respect for them, then by all means join forces. If you can't join forces why are you respecting them aka troll and a paladin.
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Postby Dalar » Mon May 20, 2002 7:49 pm

Basically after someone came in with a piss poor group to suicide kill a rare my friends were doing, that's when my attitude changed on rares. If i see it, I can get a group, I'll get it. if i don't know the person who may have beaten me to it (which is rarely the case) or i don't hate himm, i'll help or give it up. If the group that's doing it fails twice, i'm gonna jack it b/c they don't have the group. This is how the MUD zones are set up - competition. There is no common courtesy in competition, it's different between each person. I use to care alot more about others until that one incident. Just remember, it's a game and you can find it again too.

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Postby Gorkl » Mon May 20, 2002 9:05 pm

I still believe this comes down to respect.
Me being a troll, I have no respect for paladins or other goodie bastards. I played good for 4 years and came to hate them. Well not all of them, but most......

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