Theological Discussion

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
Galkar
Sojourner
Posts: 486
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Providence, RI

Theological Discussion

Postby Galkar » Wed May 29, 2002 6:26 pm

Was reading codes thread and sparked a curiosity of mine. Wanted to see what people other than those in my family and friends thought.....

Quit reading if you don't want to get drawn in Image

Adam and Eve had many children. One (if not more, can't remember) of those male children went to the land of Nod and married. Who did he marry if Adam and Eve were the first two humans on earth?

My thought - Adam and Eve are specifically described as being made "in gods own image". To me, that translates as "with knowledge of god" meaning he used the human form and made a male and female that had knowledge of him.

I refuse to argue, fight, flame, bitch, whine, moan and groan over this. So please don't do it in this thread. Everyone has a right to their own opinion. I'm just curious to see other peoples take on this particular subject.

Any takers?

------------------
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ashiwi » Wed May 29, 2002 6:28 pm

That's where those alien visitors come in.
Shar
FORGER ADMIN
Posts: 791
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Shar » Wed May 29, 2002 7:23 pm

Well, Adam and Eve lived to be aprox. 600 years old (who knows how long they were in the garden before they were cast out...) and if even 1/2 of those years were fertile years, think how many children could they have concieved, raised and set lose to multiply and replenish the earth.

My thoughts are: Adam and Eve were given the knowledge of God and were told to teach their children about him and how to reproduce(which they did,) and those children had the choice to either believe or disbelieve. Either way, having had so many offspring there would be no lack of potential spouses to choose from especially considering the average life span Image

Just my personal thoughts on the subject.

Shar
Lirathal
Sojourner
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2001 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby Lirathal » Wed May 29, 2002 7:29 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Galkar:
<B>Was reading codes thread and sparked a curiosity of mine. Wanted to see what people other than those in my family and friends thought.....

Quit reading if you don't want to get drawn in Image

Adam and Eve had many children. One (if not more, can't remember)</B> They had 3 Image <B> of those male children went to the land of Nod and married. Who did he marry if Adam and Eve were the first two humans on earth?
</B> Adam and Eve were 'together' <B>

My thought - Adam and Eve are specifically described as being made "in gods own image". To me, that translates as "with knowledge of god" meaning he used the human form and made a male and female that had knowledge of him. </B>True to a point but I think it means more, mentally than anything else, with thought, compassion, and emotions.<B>

I refuse to argue, fight, flame, bitch, whine, moan and groan over this. So please don't do it in this thread. Everyone has a right to their own opinion. I'm just curious to see other peoples take on this particular subject.

Any takers?

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is my take Image
Regards,
Lira
Kuurg
Sojourner
Posts: 398
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Faang
Contact:

Postby Kuurg » Wed May 29, 2002 7:39 pm

This broad he went and married must've been Homo Erectus or Homo Neanderthalensis. He probably wooed her by picking fleas out of her fur.

If you purchase the platinum king james version, you'd get 57 additional verses not featured in the original text as well as commentary by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Seriously though, perhaps the bible is only meant to encompass Homo Sapien life as 'made in god's image.' Perhaps neanderthals were made in some guy named rob's image.

------------------
·•Kuurg•·
Zrax
Sojourner
Posts: 593
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Fairborn, OH, USA
Contact:

Postby Zrax » Wed May 29, 2002 7:43 pm

According to the Bible, Adam and Eve had more than 3 children but only 3 were named. It seems quite possible to me that God would put people elsewhere on the planet after being cast out of eden and not mentioning it in the Bible, the book is a many thousand year history so im sure there is alot left out.

------------------
And shepherds we shall be, for Thee my Lord, for Thee.
Power hath descended forth from Thy hand,
that our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command.
We will flow a river forth unto Thee,
and teeming with souls shall it ever be.
In nomine Patris, et Fili, et Spiritu Sancti.
Barut
Sojourner
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2002 5:01 am

Postby Barut » Wed May 29, 2002 7:43 pm

According to the King James version of the Bible Adam lived 930 years. I agree with Shar that he(Adam) had numerous children. The part where it says that God created man in his own image means that God made us to resemble himself. We have arms, legs, a head, and all our other features because our creator has them too. The Bible is full of examples of the corporal nature of Heavenly Father. I won't go into detail now for fear of sparking an argument.

Barut
terix
Sojourner
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Evansville, IN, USA

Postby terix » Wed May 29, 2002 8:40 pm

the story of adam and eve is simply a metaphor for how man fell short of what God's plan for man was. i don't believe that the story was ever ment to be taken literally.

just my thought.
Dizzin
Sojourner
Posts: 290
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Dizzin » Wed May 29, 2002 8:41 pm

Wait a sec.. Do I understand right that, according to the bible, all Human beings are inbred?

Would explain a lot of human stupidity.

-Tre'Verien
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ashiwi » Wed May 29, 2002 8:48 pm

Amen Dizzin.
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby moritheil » Wed May 29, 2002 8:59 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Galkar:
<B>Adam and Eve had many children. One (if not more, can't remember) of those male children went to the land of Nod and married. Who did he marry if Adam and Eve were the first two humans on earth?

My thought - Adam and Eve are specifically described as being made "in gods own image". To me, that translates as "with knowledge of god" meaning he used the human form and made a male and female that had knowledge of him.

Any takers?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cain fled and dwelt in the Land of Nod. In fact, if you read certain Vampire myths, they have some fabled Book of Nod about his time spent there. Some modern day authors, like Gaiman, theorize that the Land of Nod was in fact some kind of dreamworld.

At any rate, the basic idea behind that story was that Cain slew his brother, but God, being kind, decided to provide for Cain and allow him to live out a life in contemplation of this act. So God provided, and that's all we know.

Man was made in God's image, but that image was marred when man sinned - I heard that and found it to be a pretty fair explanation.
Gorkl
Sojourner
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby Gorkl » Wed May 29, 2002 9:14 pm

I don't believe in any of this crap sorry. Adam and Eve were a dream some crack head had back in the day. Why should people read about people's drug induced visions and take them as the word of god. Let us remember that god did not write the bible, nor did he publish, edit, and translate it. Let me also say, that if you are going to read a bible, at least use the original draft. Pick yourself up a copy of the diaglot....Original greek, hebrew and that shit on one side, on the other the translation....nice book.

------------------
<br /><a href="http://rumandmonkey.com/widgets/tests/dumb/">How dumb are <i>you</i>?</a>
Galkar
Sojourner
Posts: 486
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Providence, RI

Postby Galkar » Wed May 29, 2002 9:20 pm

LOL, I agree Dizzin.

I agree Lirathal.

Just so you know, my point is based off a combination of scientific and religious things. I took an anthropology class in high school that really altered my way of viewing the history of humans. I've been contemplating the idea that evolution happened just as anthropology states it did, and that to bring the word of god into the world, he made Adam and Eve. Then their son Cain went out and married. My thoughts were that humans had already evolved and existed in cultures of some sort, and that's where Cain went. Just seems to make sense to me.

Good points mori. I'll think on that considering that where or what the land of "Nod" really is isn't really known.

Barut, just know you won't spark an argument with me, lol. Think of all the religions and beliefs in the world. Everyones entitled to their own beliefs. If one is truly the "correct" religion, then the other several billion be damned? I think not.

Thanks guys for posting, I've always been one to keep an open mind to other peoples opinions, it helps me work out my feelings on subjects much easier by opening new ideas in my mind.

------------------
Galkar
Sojourner
Posts: 486
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Providence, RI

Postby Galkar » Wed May 29, 2002 9:23 pm

Gorkl, believe me, i think about that a good bit too, lol. Nothings firm in my mind it seems, I like solid, concrete, knock you in the face answers. Guess that's why I think about this stuff so much sometimes.

------------------
Cardolan
Sojourner
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ, USA
Contact:

Postby Cardolan » Wed May 29, 2002 9:37 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gorkl:
<B>I don't believe in any of this crap sorry. Adam and Eve were a dream some crack head had back in the day. Why should people read about people's drug induced visions and take them as the word of god.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That wasn't offensive enough. Please try again.

-c
Jegzed
Sojourner
Posts: 1240
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Jegzed » Wed May 29, 2002 9:50 pm

What does these fairy tales got anythign to do with real life?

EVERY sane person knows that Odin created the humans in Midgård, and I never heard about those Adam and Eva and their sons and daughters shagging each other.

------------------
/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
Guest

Postby Guest » Wed May 29, 2002 9:54 pm

Let me get this straight, you want a religous discussion in a public forum and you don't want it to turn into a flamefest?

Good Luck!


------------------
Azuth God of Wizardry and Majiks
Kallinar
Sojourner
Posts: 564
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2001 6:01 am
Location: C'ville Va.
Contact:

Postby Kallinar » Wed May 29, 2002 10:53 pm

Ahh yes..the age old Adam and Eve discussion. I tell die hard christians that those who believe in that, must also understand that everyone in the world is inbred. My african american friends get all flustered when they think that they might be related to me by blood. Tsk tsk. Lock up yer daughters. Yer son's may be looking to procreate.

Moo
Keran
Sojourner
Posts: 286
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Folsom, CA, USA

Postby Keran » Thu May 30, 2002 12:01 am

In Basica...

10 God creates Adam
20 God creates Eve
30 Adam and Eve "knock boots"
40 Goto 30

God does a ctrl-brk and makes man toil over the land, and childbirth becomes painful.


Toarn
Turxx
Sojourner
Posts: 641
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Turxx » Thu May 30, 2002 3:23 am

i think the bible is a story, and more than that a guild as to how one should live.
i think there is alot of wisdom in the bible, but im not convinced there is a god, or ifthere is one, who he is
Shar
FORGER ADMIN
Posts: 791
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Shar » Thu May 30, 2002 3:40 am

It would really be nice if in just one thread on this BBS people could post what they wanted to without using harsh words and overly dramatic text. Be careful what you say to others, especially over the topic of religion of *any* kind... It tends to bruise what people hold to be the fundamental basics of their lives.

Religion in it's plethera of forms should be respected. The one key element of respect should be found in the right to believe, regardless if you choose to agree or disagree.

The tongue is a double edged sword. Try not to hurt others with it, it's just good behavior Image (k, done acting like Mom now. *shiver*)

Shar
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Postby Sarvis » Thu May 30, 2002 3:50 am

"Religion in it's plethera of forms should be respected."

I could, and have, argue against that.

------------------
Every problem in the universe can be solved by finding the right long-haired prettyboy and beating the crap out of him.
Elisten
Sojourner
Posts: 270
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Minnesota
Contact:

Postby Elisten » Thu May 30, 2002 4:02 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Galkar:
I've been contemplating the idea that evolution happened just as anthropology states it did, and that to bring the word of god into the world, he made Adam and Eve. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see your point here. Evolution did happen like anthropology dictates.

However, I also believe that the "Big Bang" did not happen all by itself. Image

Someone helped it out a little.

Cheers,
Elisten
Daz
Sojourner
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 5:01 am
Location: newark, delaware
Contact:

Postby Daz » Thu May 30, 2002 4:04 am

First of all - mori - the book of nod is FAKE! good god, you LARPers really need to get out. tan? what comes to mind? you might be a larper if you are imaging how much damage you take from it.

anyway, if you want to hear some non-christian takes on the bible, try

http://www.minitru.org/llf/stories.html

personally - i gave up caring about religion long ago. religion is not an argument, it is an excuse to argue. there is no way you can use factual evidence, because there is little to none.

the bible in itself is a story, that like most mythology, was once truth and eroded by time into little more than symbolic lessons, as someone mentioned before. the various sects of the church use the bible to manipulate the unquestioning populace, who take blind faith as a part of their religion. the bible has been edited and modified heavily, tailored over the generations to be more of a tool than a true documentary of anything. i would put more stock in the bible, if the vatican was not afraid of letting the public read parts of it.

to be honest, i pay more respect to the gods of sojourn than i ever have or will pay to the fabled gods of any religion i have ever heard of or studied.

-daz

------------------
One, I don't know who in the hell you are.
Two, I don't CARE who in the hell you are.
This isn't personal.
THIS IS A GAME.

Erevan
Shar
FORGER ADMIN
Posts: 791
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Shar » Thu May 30, 2002 4:05 am

Sarvis, taking that one sentance out of my post can make it sound different than it was intended. I was simply refering to the fact that all humans should have the right to believe in what they will (within reason, barring physical/mental harm from themselves or anyone else they may come into contact with) just because they exist. Respect is not a bad characteristic to display toward one another. Obviously, reaching a fanatical point in any belief or practice is not a good thing. Balance is important.

Shar
Zetey
Sojourner
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun May 05, 2002 5:01 am

Postby Zetey » Thu May 30, 2002 4:11 am

I think we take things too literal in translation.

Example:

We say that Adam and Eve were created in God's image -- but we take this to mean "physical" image. Adam and Eve were created in God's image spiritually -- free from sin.

The bible is supposed to be a guide by which to live your life -- you're not supposed to do EXACTLY the same thing as the people in the bible.

I'm not religious, but I do try to live my life the way Jesus lived his. I try to be nice to others and treat them the way I want to be treated -- the "golden rule," as it were. It's VERY hard to do, and I fail a lot! So I guess I'm a new testament kind of guy, then.

So what about the story of Adam and Eve then -- I guess it's an allegory about doing what you're told or else. Sound familiar? Isn't that what mom told you to do? I think some mom back in the day coooked the whole thing up to keep her kids in line.

------------------

Zetey tells you, "Where can I get a pair of gaudy pink, thickly padded, handcuffs?"
Daz
Sojourner
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 5:01 am
Location: newark, delaware
Contact:

Postby Daz » Thu May 30, 2002 4:14 am

if i cared, i would be offended. you tell me WHY someone had to help the 'Big Bang' theory. who says it can not be a part of something bigger than us?

have you ever seen fractals? know what that is? they don't have a beginning or end. god is an analogy that we use to explain things we can't explain. every scientific discovery displaces god, one step further. it is just a matter of time before religion will become little more than a cult in itself. yes, it is huge now, it seems unstoppable. but look at the future.

ask how many kids in the 50's believed in god. ask kids in the 90's. ive got hundred's of friends, maybe 1 or 2 are christian, a couple believe in 'something' but won't call it god. most of us think that it is a load of crap that was created by old people to control us. "we dont like hackers. we dont like colored hair. we dont like tattoos. we dont like piercings. go to church."

*vomits*

------------------
One, I don't know who in the hell you are.
Two, I don't CARE who in the hell you are.
This isn't personal.
THIS IS A GAME.

Erevan
Mishre
Sojourner
Posts: 295
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Flagstaff AZ US
Contact:

Postby Mishre » Thu May 30, 2002 6:11 am

Ok, anyone who doesn't know much about the history of the bible (i see a few here) id recommend you read A case for christ, (then A case for faith) if you really want me to ill drag 'em out and find the authors name.

He was an aethist who went out to prove the Bible was wrong to his recently converted wife, the more he dug the more he found undeniable proof that it was real. He is a court reporter i believe, and he goes through the cases like it was a court case and he has to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt.. He interviews many ppl who have studied the history of the bible. essentially, the NIV bible is directly translated from the original scrolls (except for the word Baptise, which was transliterated, baptismal (or something like that) which means to submerge. anyway.. if you are actually interested in those books they were very well written and gave me a lot of support for believing when i was begining to disbelieve.

One thing you should realize, the new testement was written not long after Christ's death and was begining to be distributed and taught.. if it was made up, wouldn't people say, WTF do you think you are doing? nothing happened like that! he goes over things like this in the book... well worth a read to anyone.. wether you believe or not..

[This message has been edited by Mishre (edited 05-30-2002).]
Jenera
Sojourner
Posts: 533
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Warsaw, Indiana
Contact:

Postby Jenera » Thu May 30, 2002 7:58 am

In my opinion, both science and religion has too many holes for me to accept either one.
If the bible is taken literally, then yes, the entire human race is inbred, unless you read between the lines and assume that God created other people over time besides Adam and Eve. It would also mean you had to assume God had to do it again when he destroyed the world except for Noah's family with the flood. It's interesting.

------------------
Jennie
@}--`--,---
Abue
Sojourner
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Abue » Thu May 30, 2002 12:15 pm

The bible. I do not think the text with in this book should be read and taken litteraly word for word. There are a lot of meaning behind the stories. There is a lot of symbolism. Just because Genisus says that God created the world in 6 days and on the 7th day he rested doesn't actually make me believe he spent 6 consecutive days to do the work and took the 7th consecutive day and took a vacation. I will not go into the actual Adem and Eve story but I will say this. There were probably others that there children could have married and started families with. All major religions must deal with two certain things. One is the beginning and the other is the end. If you want to read something packed with symbolism and read a ton of nonsense into it read Revolations in the bible. I think they describe Tiamat in there some where. Does that mean Tiamat will actually exist at the end times? I think not. The colorful discription I am thinking of actually has more to do with the Roman Empire then anything. This is a good forum. Had to reply.
Zrax
Sojourner
Posts: 593
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Fairborn, OH, USA
Contact:

Postby Zrax » Thu May 30, 2002 1:56 pm

The number of people who believe a thing are in no way indicative of its accuracy. The fact that more people in the 50's believe in god than do in the 90's is about the strongest evidence I have heard to date to the validity of the Bible and God. It is much easier to mock a religion that preaches our subservience than it is to embrace it, and in a time dominated by self importance and convenience it is not too suprising why the number of faithful have declined. Science has proven nothing to me that is more profound of powerful than the feeling of peace I can recieve in silent commune with God, it offers no comfort in times of trouble. When I lie on my death bed, I will have no trepidation or feeling of regret as I pass into eternity, I cannot say the same for the unbeliever, and that makes all the days leading to it that much better. When I think about that, ideas the like of if humanity is the result of inbreeding or not seem petty by comparison.

------------------
And shepherds we shall be, for Thee my Lord, for Thee.
Power hath descended forth from Thy hand,
that our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command.
We will flow a river forth unto Thee,
and teeming with souls shall it ever be.
In nomine Patris, et Fili, et Spiritu Sancti.
Galkar
Sojourner
Posts: 486
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Providence, RI

Postby Galkar » Thu May 30, 2002 2:25 pm

Please guys, lets keep this thread clean. I know it may hit a sore spot, but lets all have a little respect for the right to an opinion/belief. I wasn't looking for people's arguments against other people's beliefs, I was looking to just see what different people believed. This mud is very diverse in the type of people of the world, and not everyone will agree, but we don't need to fight over it :P

There have been some excellent responses, thanks.

------------------
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Postby Sarvis » Thu May 30, 2002 3:56 pm

Abue: Unfortunately there are many who believe that the Bible _must_ be taken as literal truth. There's some guy who even writes books about it, can't remember his name though atm. I wanna say Jack Chick, but it's probably some other zealot. (Not of the protoss kind either! Image )

Zrax: If I lived a "good Christian life" I'd have a great many regrets about experiences I missed. Not that I'm experiencing them now, mind you... but I sure as hell _want_ to! Image


Actual reply to the thread:

I believe the Bible, in it's current form, is a book formed in order to help control people. The primary point of Adam and Eve is to lay the groundwork for Original Sin, which all humans have to spend their entire lives trying to atone for. This also lays the groundwork for the whole sins of the father visited on the son thing. It's one of the few things you could probably do to get a guy to behave, since people want their child to be happy and succesful in life. (Especially back then, when children were important.) A man might reconsider cheating on his wife if he believed that his son would be cursed for life because of it!

------------------
Every problem in the universe can be solved by finding the right long-haired prettyboy and beating the crap out of him.
Grungar
Sojourner
Posts: 967
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Somewhere on the east coast, usually.
Contact:

Postby Grungar » Thu May 30, 2002 4:49 pm

God = Good.

I'm going to hell.

This is essentially all that I know. I make up the rest as I go along.

- Grungar "Hi ho, hi ho, it's off to Hell I go.." Forgefire
Daz
Sojourner
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 5:01 am
Location: newark, delaware
Contact:

Postby Daz » Thu May 30, 2002 7:04 pm

drugs are your friend. the bible says so.

------------------
One, I don't know who in the hell you are.
Two, I don't CARE who in the hell you are.
This isn't personal.
THIS IS A GAME.

Erevan
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby moritheil » Thu May 30, 2002 8:56 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B>First of all - mori - the book of nod is FAKE!
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heh... I think I mentioned that it was a fable. I don't really LARP :P

------------------
Zaryn group-says 'If we can para the mages again. Mori's trick is going to save us.'
<> You group-say 'zaryn the "mori save us" irony is not lost on me'
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby moritheil » Thu May 30, 2002 8:58 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarvis:
<B>Abue: Unfortunately there are many who believe that the Bible _must_ be taken as literal truth. There's some guy who even writes books about it, can't remember his name though atm. I wanna say Jack Chick, but it's probably some other zealot. (Not of the protoss kind either! Image )

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ding ding ding. If you want to see something interesting, read the In Nomine series, and then look up In Nomine: Chick.

- Mori, missing his SC:BW CD.

------------------
Zaryn group-says 'If we can para the mages again. Mori's trick is going to save us.'
<> You group-say 'zaryn the "mori save us" irony is not lost on me'
omrec
Sojourner
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Santa Monica, CA, USA
Contact:

Postby omrec » Thu May 30, 2002 11:48 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mishre:
Ok, anyone who doesn't know much about the history of the bible (i see a few here) id recommend you read A case for christ, (then A case for faith) if you really want me to ill drag 'em out and find the authors name.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Case for Christ is a truly awful book. I read it fairly recently, and barely made it through it. It is very poorly written, makes a mockery of the actual search for truth, and is at best a waste of a day of reading. At worst, it will lower your IQ. If you want to read a good book about christianity, at least read something like C.S. Lewis' Mere Xtianity. Very well written, contains convincing arguments, and actually tries to take christianity seriously.

A large portion of "A Case for Christ" involves asking "experts" (people with degrees from christian universities) if they think Jesus was real or not. They say "yes". The author says "oh, really? How wonderful." Sometimes he asks the hard questions, like "are you sure?" What a wonderful piece of literary drivel... Image


Not to pick on Mishre, but a statement like "gave me a lot of support for believing when i was begining to disbelieve" is exactly the problem with most believers. They don't care about what is actually true, they just want corroboration of their own beliefs. Which of course leads to such wonderful things as creationism, astrology, and scam artists like that Crossing Over moron (John Edwards I think).

If you are worried about losing your faith, by all means read Case for Christ. If you care about the moral obligations of humanity, and what you can do to help, then read some C.S. Lewis, some Robert Ingersoll, and some Bertrand Russell.

Zrax: Huh? How can you make claims about regrets of unbelievers? All the great atheists have confounded their non-secular critics by being extremely serene as they approached their deathbed. They pretty much all died happy, which is more than I can say for most believers. It always amazes me that people don't understand how much more freedom you are granted through accepting the state of the world for what it is, and dissolving the chains of religious indoctrination. I probably get very similar feelings of peace as your "commune with god", but through standing in a forest in the rain, or taking a run through the hills, or a walk under the stars. The only place I ever feel truly uncomfortable is when I visit a church, because you get these masses of people who are missing out on so much life...or worse, being endlessly told that they are worthless, sinners, and need to repent. Of course, that is only the churches I have visited (been to about 10 different ones) so it is not a representation of all of them. In fact, I'm supposed to go to a pretty good one this sunday, so I'll let you know..:P

Side Note:
I have a dream about doing a study to see if intelligence and religious thought correlate at all. Not to "prove" anything, just to see the results. Possible results are:

a) Correlation found, more intelligence = more likely to be religious. Religious people hold it up as proof of God. Scientists go "hrm, interesting, lets do some more studies"

b) Correlation found, more intelligence = more likely to be atheist. Religious people attack the authors of the study, try to keep it from being published, and attempt to destroy its credibility. Scientists go "hrm, interesting, lets do some more studies"

c) Correlation not found. Religious people ignore it. Scientists go "hrm, guess they don't correlate, lets look at something else."


Last Point: Claims about the number of people believing something relating to its truth are completely invalid. Almost everyone believed the earth was round, that was wrong. Almost everyone believed that God created the world fairly recently, and created man directly, that was wrong. Almost everyone believes that the universe began in a bang, that _may_ be wrong (may be right, unknown). Truth isn't about belief, truth is about TRUTH.

Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

-Om
The Guardian
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ashiwi » Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

Dang, I thought the world was round.
Daz
Sojourner
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 5:01 am
Location: newark, delaware
Contact:

Postby Daz » Fri May 31, 2002 12:15 am

cs lewis was an avid follower of the church of satan for the record :P

narnia that

------------------
One, I don't know who in the hell you are.
Two, I don't CARE who in the hell you are.
This isn't personal.
THIS IS A GAME.

Erevan
Tesil2
Sojourner
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2002 5:01 am

Postby Tesil2 » Fri May 31, 2002 12:24 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B>cs lewis was an avid follower of the church of satan for the record :P

narnia that

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What's wrong with the Church of Satan?
Daz
Sojourner
Posts: 1942
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 5:01 am
Location: newark, delaware
Contact:

Postby Daz » Fri May 31, 2002 12:27 am

please tell me where i indicated anything was wrong with that? rofl - the thing i love about religious people is just how defensive they are. NOWHERE did i indicate anything other than a fact of his religious preference, yet this person jumps out defending the denomination anyway.

lol.

------------------
One, I don't know who in the hell you are.
Two, I don't CARE who in the hell you are.
This isn't personal.
THIS IS A GAME.

Erevan
Grungar
Sojourner
Posts: 967
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Somewhere on the east coast, usually.
Contact:

Postby Grungar » Fri May 31, 2002 12:34 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ashiwi:
Dang, I thought the world was round.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's obvious. The world is flat. Burn her! She's a witch! BUUUUUUUUURN HER!

- Grungar "Hey Torquemada, whaddaya know?" Forgefire
Grungar
Sojourner
Posts: 967
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Somewhere on the east coast, usually.
Contact:

Postby Grungar » Fri May 31, 2002 12:39 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jegzed:
<B>What does these fairy tales got anythign to do with real life?

EVERY sane person knows that Odin created the humans in Midgård, and I never heard about those Adam and Eva and their sons and daughters shagging each other.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's why he has one of the best days in the week named after him- Wednesday! Damn, I can't wait for those valkyries to come cart me off to Valhalla. Drinking and fighting are great and all, but where does napping play into this?

- Grungar "Pro napper" Forgefire
Kifle
Sojourner
Posts: 3830
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Huntington, IN USA
Contact:

Postby Kifle » Fri May 31, 2002 12:40 am

Sheesh Ashiwi, where have you been for the last 500 years? The world is square! I belive the bible describes the earth as being a sort of flat serface with a dome (will have to find out where i read that at).

The Bible is nothing more than a book full of parabols just like all other religion/mythology. What I never understood is how so many people can say there is a god, but yet call the greeks crazy because they had many gods that did such things as "make the oceans angry and spill upon towns", or "Make a mountain angry and spew forth fire and brimstone". This discredits other ancient religions because we now know that these were natural disasters linked to tidal waves and volcanos. Wait a minute...didnt sodam and gomora (sp?) get wiped out by fire and brimstone too? Oh yeah, but this was the bible so it must be true. The greeks were inferior and belived in gods that could transform into other creatures. They must have been on some halucinagens or something. But god can disguise himself as a burning bush and Tada! We now have truth! It is all bologna (not oscar mayer because it is good stuff).

There may be something higher, who knows. But to rage wars, call other nations ignorant and damn them to an eternity of pain and anguish, and shun people from society because a large group fanatics read too much into a fable? Give me a break. Why dont we just start a mother goose cult...err i mean religion.

Believe what you want, live your life the way you chose, but always remember these are only opinions and can never be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt so dont cry "truth" unless you can give me gods phone number or tell him to come to my house so we can discuss life over a pepsi and pizza. (unless he is a coke fan, then he can bring his own).



------------------
Kifle "It Slipped I swear!" ButteryFingers
Tesil2
Sojourner
Posts: 118
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2002 5:01 am

Postby Tesil2 » Fri May 31, 2002 12:44 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B>please tell me where i indicated anything was wrong with that? rofl - the thing i love about religious people is just how defensive they are. NOWHERE did i indicate anything other than a fact of his religious preference, yet this person jumps out defending the denomination anyway.

lol.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry...where was I defending the Church of Satan...was just asking a question.
Grungar
Sojourner
Posts: 967
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Somewhere on the east coast, usually.
Contact:

Postby Grungar » Fri May 31, 2002 12:50 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kifle:
<B>Believe what you want, live your life the way you chose, but always remember these are only opinions and can never be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt so dont cry "truth" unless you can give me gods phone number or tell him to come to my house so we can discuss life over a pepsi and pizza. (unless he is a coke fan, then he can bring his own).
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe God is a Dew fan. That caffeine really keeps Him going late into the night when there's still much godding to be done.

- Grungar "Yeah, still going to hell" Forgefire
omrec
Sojourner
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Santa Monica, CA, USA
Contact:

Postby omrec » Fri May 31, 2002 1:05 am

Follow up: (these are most definitely wrong, but the trend is probably still accurate)

Approximate number of americans who are atheist: 10%
Approximate number of american scientists who are atheist: 60%
Approximate number of nobel prize winning scientists who are atheist: 80+%

perhaps there is a corrolation after all...Anyone have more accurate figures? these are just culled from various articles (both secular and non-secular), and not from any direct sources, so I'm not stating them as fact, just as a guess.

hrm, more studies need to be done (and i need to find more accurate figures)

peace, love, and hope for you all.

-Om

P.S. I'm thinking of starting a church of Om. Anyone wanna join?..:P Services will be held Friday nights, with free beer. Tell me your sins, and I'll buy you a pint.. Image
Grungar
Sojourner
Posts: 967
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Somewhere on the east coast, usually.
Contact:

Postby Grungar » Fri May 31, 2002 1:12 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by omrec:
<B>Follow up: (these are most definitely wrong, but the trend is probably still accurate)

Approximate number of americans who are atheist: 10%
Approximate number of american scientists who are atheist: 60%
Approximate number of nobel prize winning scientists who are atheist: 80+%

perhaps there is a corrolation after all...Anyone have more accurate figures? these are just culled from various articles (both secular and non-secular), and not from any direct sources, so I'm not stating them as fact, just as a guess.

hrm, more studies need to be done (and i need to find more accurate figures)

peace, love, and hope for you all.

-Om

P.S. I'm thinking of starting a church of Om. Anyone wanna join?..:P Services will be held Friday nights, with free beer. Tell me your sins, and I'll buy you a pint.. Image</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Free beer, eh? We zany Catholics get free wine... But just a sip. Still, you've piqued my interest. Image

I dunno. I love me my God and all, and I plan to become future ruler of the earth (wonder how many others on the MUD plan to have that title?) or something along those lines. Know several really bright people that are God-crazy too. It's all in how you define intelligence. There are a bajillion and one types of intelligence.

I really need to do something other than read and post on the BBS, fanning flames and acting like an ass. It's bad for me =D

- Grungar "Who'd ever heard of a friendly sea monster laughing and loving his life away?" Forgefire

P.S. The Rastafarians got it right. One love. That's all it really is, one love. And they smoke ganja. People consider pot smokers stoopid... Heh.
Kallinar
Sojourner
Posts: 564
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2001 6:01 am
Location: C'ville Va.
Contact:

Postby Kallinar » Fri May 31, 2002 3:01 am

I wonder...when the christian god created the sky, did he use &+C first, or &+L?

And man...talk about a lot of mobprogs he had to work out for this little mud we call life.

Thank You.

Moo

Return to “S3 General Discussion Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests