let me start this off with a little story.
I work for a large photography retailer. not large as in a huge chain, just the biggest and best stocked in the entire S.F. bay area. We've been in business for 37 years.
We have a few older guys. They've been in this business nearly 40 years or more. One of the oldest guys, Walter, is 74 years old. He's from switzerland, has been in this country for 30+ years and still has a thick german accent.
He also has absolutely no manners. He will yell at fellow co-workers in front of customers. He will talk down to customers all the time. 'you dont want dis one? why not? it's a good camera? something wrong with you?'.
There are two reasons why he's like this. 1) it's a comission driven environment - you dont sell you have small paychecks and 2) because the behavior is always overlooked as 'well, that's just walter'
how is this any different than this game we play? we the players are constantly telling people off in public channels and on the bbs.
the admin is very lax this time around because they felt they were too harsh before.
i feel that perhaps the gods need to put their foot down for a while.
let's face it, this is almost like a comission driven sales environment. everyone wants the best stuff, and that fosters greed. when we dont get the best stuff fast enough we get very irritable, and that irritation is let loose on all around us. and because there is no real discipline when folks get out of hand it only gets worse and worse.
we cant have anymore walters, people. We are all human beings. the MAJORITY of the current mud population has been here 5+ years. you dont have to like each other, but at least have the common decency and respect to take your beefs to tells.
and i'm officially petitioning the administration here that if it happens even once more i ask that you guys drop the hammer for a while, because clearly we cannot police ourselves.
Admin and players - what can we do?
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kiryan
- Sojourner
- Posts: 7275
- Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
- Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
- Contact:
can i ask why it needs policing? which laws are being broken. what happened to your right to be pissed off opinionated and downright disrespectful to others? are we too immature that we can't hear what someone else has to say even if its pointless or inflammatory? exercise some self discipline dont rely on others to protect you. now posting here is a privilege so i suppose you dont have the rights i describe above. but irritating flamers will in most cases settle down after time or leave. give it 6 months, dont over react.
The only basis I could find for potential culpability would be in providing an environment which fosters so much rage/hatred. you might make a claim of negligence in court. however, chances of winning such a suit would depend heavily in your lawyers and what ever legal agreement you consented to be a member of the sojourn bbs or sojourn mud. you can't protect yourself from frivilous lawsuits so therefore the above is being overy cautious and very possibly detrimental.
having stated a policy against flames, you now have a duty to uphold it. failure to do so could put you at risk. For instance, you might be able to establish an implied contract to provide a friendly community setting in which to discuss ideas. Stating anti flame policies and not upholding or blatantly non-enforcement could put you in breach of an implied contract. course again it would be tough to win and depend mostly on your lawyer and any contracts youve forced us to agree too.
in the first case youd have to prove negligence, prolly criminal level neglience, in the second case you'd only have to prove negligence in enforcement of your self stated policies. something to think about. btw im no lawyer. do not consider this legal advice, just an analysis.
The only basis I could find for potential culpability would be in providing an environment which fosters so much rage/hatred. you might make a claim of negligence in court. however, chances of winning such a suit would depend heavily in your lawyers and what ever legal agreement you consented to be a member of the sojourn bbs or sojourn mud. you can't protect yourself from frivilous lawsuits so therefore the above is being overy cautious and very possibly detrimental.
having stated a policy against flames, you now have a duty to uphold it. failure to do so could put you at risk. For instance, you might be able to establish an implied contract to provide a friendly community setting in which to discuss ideas. Stating anti flame policies and not upholding or blatantly non-enforcement could put you in breach of an implied contract. course again it would be tough to win and depend mostly on your lawyer and any contracts youve forced us to agree too.
in the first case youd have to prove negligence, prolly criminal level neglience, in the second case you'd only have to prove negligence in enforcement of your self stated policies. something to think about. btw im no lawyer. do not consider this legal advice, just an analysis.
I feel both Teyaha and Kiryan have valid points here.
The BBS has a few good ideas and supportive/constructive thoughts, and a lot of complaint/sniping/belittling. It is difficult to come here regularly, to keep an eye on the pulse of the MUD, because I need to wade through the garbage to get here and would rather be doing my job.
However, like at my son's school, people need to learn to guide themselves, to resolve their own problems so they don't need to constantly rely upon someone else to do it for them.
There's many ways to try to balance the two, and most depend on how skilled the general group is at respecting each other. Right now, looking only at the posts and not the MUD populace as a whole, a firm hand is needed and it's here. Miax and Kiaransalee have said so. In time, as the posts shift towards more support and respect, I fully expect things will move more towards self-discipline.
What happened to the right to be disrespectful of others? By all means be disrespectful - but not here. Create your own board solely for this purpose, find a newsgroup or something, but if the owners of this board don't want this kind of stuff here, it's their right to say so and enforce it as they need.
The BBS has a few good ideas and supportive/constructive thoughts, and a lot of complaint/sniping/belittling. It is difficult to come here regularly, to keep an eye on the pulse of the MUD, because I need to wade through the garbage to get here and would rather be doing my job.
However, like at my son's school, people need to learn to guide themselves, to resolve their own problems so they don't need to constantly rely upon someone else to do it for them.
There's many ways to try to balance the two, and most depend on how skilled the general group is at respecting each other. Right now, looking only at the posts and not the MUD populace as a whole, a firm hand is needed and it's here. Miax and Kiaransalee have said so. In time, as the posts shift towards more support and respect, I fully expect things will move more towards self-discipline.
What happened to the right to be disrespectful of others? By all means be disrespectful - but not here. Create your own board solely for this purpose, find a newsgroup or something, but if the owners of this board don't want this kind of stuff here, it's their right to say so and enforce it as they need.
I think the MUD is governed more succesfully than it was at any other time in Sojourn history. Sojourn 3 is a great balance between the Gestapo-like enforcement of Toril, and the almost random, unchecked favortism of Duris. The gods here are in excellent contact with each other and are provided a hierarchy of command, so you never get wildly inconsistant rulings or decisions of one god being overturned by another. There is an excellent network of help files, I've often heard it praised by newbies as "the most complete they've ever seen." We have a fantastic helper system that works from the top down.
Are there issues? Sure there are. There are always issues between people and their authority figures. But issues on Sojourn are REMARKABLY well handled. How many players do you know who have quit the mud because conditions here are so grossly unfair? On the other hand, how many times have you had a question and actually gotten an answer to it?
I believe that the playerbase of Sojourn takes a lot for granted. In my time off Sojourn, I played a couple of other muds. Sojourn's quality staff, excellent help system, and solid code base are the exception, not the rule. Try getting a god (or a player) to tell you where the warrior's guild is on Duris. Try finding a mud out there that has a newbie zones at all, let alone one that has a complete tutorial. All I'm saying is, Sojourn is the best mud IN THE WORLD, I think sometimes we forget that
- Ragorn
I can't stay away long.
Are there issues? Sure there are. There are always issues between people and their authority figures. But issues on Sojourn are REMARKABLY well handled. How many players do you know who have quit the mud because conditions here are so grossly unfair? On the other hand, how many times have you had a question and actually gotten an answer to it?
I believe that the playerbase of Sojourn takes a lot for granted. In my time off Sojourn, I played a couple of other muds. Sojourn's quality staff, excellent help system, and solid code base are the exception, not the rule. Try getting a god (or a player) to tell you where the warrior's guild is on Duris. Try finding a mud out there that has a newbie zones at all, let alone one that has a complete tutorial. All I'm saying is, Sojourn is the best mud IN THE WORLD, I think sometimes we forget that
- Ragorn
I can't stay away long.
Personally, I wish that this BBS did not NEED to be policed. However, I believe it does.
There are 3 people that I work with that I truly despise. I can't stand them. They've talked down to me, called me an agressive kid because they are 40 yr old engineers and I'm a 25 yr old engineer. My views on manufacturing differ from theirs. And quite frankly, I think they're idiots. I've proven it a hundred times over, and can do it again.
However, I do not argue with them, I do not talk down to them, I do not "flame" them. I listen to them as I would anyone else. Because no matter how idiotic I think someone is, I will always show respect to them. And you never know, they might have something useful to say.
Basically it boils down to I express what I feel is right, not what I feel is wrong with others, unless asked for constructive criticism.
If people would express what they believe is right, and not how stupid they think someone is because they don't agree with them, this BBS would be a much more valuable tool to everyone.
Since people refuse to do this, the admins really should put their foot down. It's getting ridiculous. Most of the flaming here sounds worse than two 5 yr olds fighting over a cookie. Compromise, split it in two and share.
How do you think a BBS full of flames looks to someone who's just starting here. This is the web center of info for the mud. And someone will get the wrong impression of the player base very easily.
Galkar - Swords and knives may take my life, but flames will never hurt me -
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There are 3 people that I work with that I truly despise. I can't stand them. They've talked down to me, called me an agressive kid because they are 40 yr old engineers and I'm a 25 yr old engineer. My views on manufacturing differ from theirs. And quite frankly, I think they're idiots. I've proven it a hundred times over, and can do it again.
However, I do not argue with them, I do not talk down to them, I do not "flame" them. I listen to them as I would anyone else. Because no matter how idiotic I think someone is, I will always show respect to them. And you never know, they might have something useful to say.
Basically it boils down to I express what I feel is right, not what I feel is wrong with others, unless asked for constructive criticism.
If people would express what they believe is right, and not how stupid they think someone is because they don't agree with them, this BBS would be a much more valuable tool to everyone.
Since people refuse to do this, the admins really should put their foot down. It's getting ridiculous. Most of the flaming here sounds worse than two 5 yr olds fighting over a cookie. Compromise, split it in two and share.
How do you think a BBS full of flames looks to someone who's just starting here. This is the web center of info for the mud. And someone will get the wrong impression of the player base very easily.
Galkar - Swords and knives may take my life, but flames will never hurt me -
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Grungar
- Sojourner
- Posts: 967
- Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Somewhere on the east coast, usually.
- Contact:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
All I'm saying is, Sojourn is the best mud IN THE WORLD, I think sometimes we forget that</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah, I'd like to second this motion.
All in favor say 'aye'.
Resounding chorus of 'AYE!'
All opposed?
Crickets chirping... Tumbleweeds blow by...
Much as I thought. It's official.
Go poke around other muds. After killing Papa Smurf for the 500th time with your M61A1 vulcan cannon, come back here. "Huh, rooms with descriptions..."
Rausrh, you crack me up.
Said it afore, say it again. The Rastafarians got it right- 'One Love'.
- Grungar "Who wants the other half of this cookie?" Forgefire
All I'm saying is, Sojourn is the best mud IN THE WORLD, I think sometimes we forget that
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah, I'd like to second this motion.
All in favor say 'aye'.
Resounding chorus of 'AYE!'
All opposed?
Crickets chirping... Tumbleweeds blow by...
Much as I thought. It's official.
Go poke around other muds. After killing Papa Smurf for the 500th time with your M61A1 vulcan cannon, come back here. "Huh, rooms with descriptions..."
Rausrh, you crack me up.
Said it afore, say it again. The Rastafarians got it right- 'One Love'.
- Grungar "Who wants the other half of this cookie?" Forgefire
from my understanding, kiryan, tesil told daz to go kill himself.
as this is a privately owned game the owners do not have any reason to uphold anyone's first amendment rights since they can just boot your ass if you fuck up, it's time folks stop taking this place for granted.
the mud is not the place to take out your anger for shit that happens to you at work, school or in your life.
as this is a privately owned game the owners do not have any reason to uphold anyone's first amendment rights since they can just boot your ass if you fuck up, it's time folks stop taking this place for granted.
the mud is not the place to take out your anger for shit that happens to you at work, school or in your life.
rah bah bah.. Its just words.. don't let things get to you.. if you let things get to you, stop playing for awhile.. quit taking things so seriously.. nothing should be taken seriously.. especially not life.. have fun, live it up while you can. sit back and enjoy yourself and try to make every minute of your life as fun and/or meaningful as you can.. make some memories.. etc.. and if this game is your life i suggest you look at your priorties and think of what you want out of life. anyway enough of that..
i think this lax policy that they have now is that words aren't so important.. and they just need to step in when they have too stop actions being taken such as ppl being signed up for mailing lists and things like that.. or things get out of hand that can seriously disrupt the gameplay of others.. and i like the way they are handling things now shows a new level of maturity...
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Mishri }-Sentinel-{ Shades of Twilight
i think this lax policy that they have now is that words aren't so important.. and they just need to step in when they have too stop actions being taken such as ppl being signed up for mailing lists and things like that.. or things get out of hand that can seriously disrupt the gameplay of others.. and i like the way they are handling things now shows a new level of maturity...
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Mishri }-Sentinel-{ Shades of Twilight
mishre.
it's easy to say 'just ignore it'. the fact that these words exist on this forum where everything is archived could lead to possible problems to this boards' owners down the road.
the boards' owners dont want talk like that in any context here anymore. this is no longer of a 'if you dont like it, ignore it' it's now a matter of being constructive in your criticism.
if you feel something is wrong with the game, it's politics or anything there are better ways of wording it than 'why do the gods alway try to screw the players' and 'fuck you and the horse you rode in on'.
the talk is not appreciated. this is a privately owned board. we do NOT have the right to say whatever we want, as there will be consequences.
personally if i was the owner of this game i wouldnt want crap like this on these boards. sometimes these boards are the first thing new prospective players see before ever trying a game.
it's easy to say 'just ignore it'. the fact that these words exist on this forum where everything is archived could lead to possible problems to this boards' owners down the road.
the boards' owners dont want talk like that in any context here anymore. this is no longer of a 'if you dont like it, ignore it' it's now a matter of being constructive in your criticism.
if you feel something is wrong with the game, it's politics or anything there are better ways of wording it than 'why do the gods alway try to screw the players' and 'fuck you and the horse you rode in on'.
the talk is not appreciated. this is a privately owned board. we do NOT have the right to say whatever we want, as there will be consequences.
personally if i was the owner of this game i wouldnt want crap like this on these boards. sometimes these boards are the first thing new prospective players see before ever trying a game.
I'll admit their have been a few times that I have gotten mad at someone for no reasons, we all do becuase we are human. Its what we do after that who defines who we are. If you just forgive and forget, people will end up thinking wow that person doesn't hold a grudge and they won't bother you. BUt if you keep bothering them about it they, are just going to get angery, and you will get angery, its a never ending cycle. Most of the people here have the right idea(not saying their is a wrong idea), about flaming/belittleing and all that good stuff. EVeryone just needs to respect each other, even if you don't agree with them. I also think that the staff should take charge when things get out of hand, like they have been doing, they are all acting in the best interested in the mud.
Their have been times that I have had a bad day and all that crap. But when it comes down to it, I've made some pretty close friends i would like to think here. not by yelling, screaming, and getting mad. By telling them what my problem is and hey maybe they might even be able to help you would be surprised.
sojourn3 is the best mud i've played. but the close second is the one with no room descriptions where i got to blast Sir Lancealot with my star trek phaser, while sporting a shiny tunic, with plastic explosives attached to my belt
.
I just hope we can learn to get along, or we are no better than the animals.
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Upgup Kikk Gnomme
"Me and My Tribe will proudly follow and die."
Their have been times that I have had a bad day and all that crap. But when it comes down to it, I've made some pretty close friends i would like to think here. not by yelling, screaming, and getting mad. By telling them what my problem is and hey maybe they might even be able to help you would be surprised.
sojourn3 is the best mud i've played. but the close second is the one with no room descriptions where i got to blast Sir Lancealot with my star trek phaser, while sporting a shiny tunic, with plastic explosives attached to my belt
.I just hope we can learn to get along, or we are no better than the animals.
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Upgup Kikk Gnomme
"Me and My Tribe will proudly follow and die."
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kiryan
- Sojourner
- Posts: 7275
- Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
- Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
- Contact:
tey, correct me if im wrong but your not asking the admins to handle a specific event, tesil saying go kill yourself, your asking the title police to moderate the bbs with a giant hammer.
I disagree, handle individual events as they should be individual events. don't over react.
agree rags, this mud administration handles things very well imo and better than in previous wipes.
I disagree, handle individual events as they should be individual events. don't over react.
agree rags, this mud administration handles things very well imo and better than in previous wipes.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Teyaha:
<B>mishre.
it's easy to say 'just ignore it'. the fact that these words exist on this forum where everything is archived could lead to possible problems to this boards' owners down the road.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I didn't mean to ignore stupid crap that goes on.. i mean ignore a person you don't get along with or let issues drop when it disolves into a useless arguement, sorry i wasn't mroe clear before.. didn't mean for ppl to ignore problems
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Mishri }-Sentinel-{ Shades of Twilight
<B>mishre.
it's easy to say 'just ignore it'. the fact that these words exist on this forum where everything is archived could lead to possible problems to this boards' owners down the road.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I didn't mean to ignore stupid crap that goes on.. i mean ignore a person you don't get along with or let issues drop when it disolves into a useless arguement, sorry i wasn't mroe clear before.. didn't mean for ppl to ignore problems
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Mishri }-Sentinel-{ Shades of Twilight
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>All I'm saying is, Sojourn is the best mud IN THE WORLD, I think sometimes we forget that
- Ragorn
I can't stay away long.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
AGreed. Altho i think it's not only the best mud, but the best game
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Leah A. W.
<B>All I'm saying is, Sojourn is the best mud IN THE WORLD, I think sometimes we forget that
- Ragorn
I can't stay away long.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
AGreed. Altho i think it's not only the best mud, but the best game
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Leah A. W.
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