Take a minute.

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Ensis
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Take a minute.

Postby Ensis » Mon Jun 24, 2002 3:34 am

Read one too many threads about skills and spells I guess. Just wanted to ask that you take a minute and think about the men and women deployed worldwide for your safekeeping. American, british, canadian, wherever.

Take a minute and set aside the political implications of the war, who's pulling the strings, and why they may be pulling it. The fact remains that there are men and women fighting and dying becuase they feel they are protecting their family, friends, and the complete strangers that inhabit their countries.

They need your support, remember that next time you scoff at one of Bush or Ashcroft's speeches, question the importance of such a massive military campaign, or say how things could be done differently.

Look past the institution for a minute and think about the people carrying out their orders, without question, to take care of their own. You and me.

Thanks.
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Postby Karikhan » Mon Jun 24, 2002 5:02 am

Thank you Image

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Postby Daz » Mon Jun 24, 2002 5:42 am

Why? We have homeless people dying of cold/heat/starvation on our streets. Children who are sick or uneducated because their parents can not provide it. Firefighters and Police Officers dying to protect us from ourselves. Why do we single out the militants for recognition because so many civilians of died? Not to downplay the drama or anything, but I, for one - am glad that I am alive. To give other people respect for dying seems patently absurd if you ask me. If we want to sit aside and pay homage to those people who are dying overseas for us, then I want to know when anyone overseas will ever stop and pay respects to our fallen.
To set aside the political strings and implications of this fight is somewhat dumb, because that is the whole reason we are over there. We aren't over there because we are worried about their armies, although the acts of terrorism were annoying. The world is involved because these countries/factions/whatever have spent centuries arguing like children over what belongs to whom. I personally think we should go there, beat some discipline into anyone who has a problem with it, and spent the next 100 years enforcing sanctions to prevent them from ever owning a slingshot.

Respect should never be 'given' - it must be earned. How does death merit respect?

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Postby Izizimmez » Mon Jun 24, 2002 6:34 am

I think Ensis was being specific to paying respect and giving support to only the people that are protecting 'us'. As in the U.S. for me, the uh, Candadians for you Canucks, etc. Not paying respect for the people who we're being protected from...right?
It's like taking a minute to thank James Bond for always stopping those Russians.

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Postby ssar » Mon Jun 24, 2002 8:31 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ensis:
set aside the political implications of the war, who's pulling the strings, and why they may be pulling it. The fact remains that there are men and women fighting and dying becuase they feel they are protecting their family, friends, and the complete strangers that inhabit their countries.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said Ensis.

Personally I am very much against war, defence forces, guns and so on.

But your point is very important, and I agree those people do a great job at what they are trained to do, and at seemingly protecting many modern ideals and values we have.

Now send Gormal to the fence line already.

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Postby kiryan » Mon Jun 24, 2002 9:32 am

they are being paid to do a job. in some cases they are paying their dues as part of their society (required military service). Lets not make it out to be something noble or grand. Yes people die, yes they are protecting us, but yes they have a job to do, yes in the US at least I pay them to do it and equip them.

i respect the armed forces, I respect people dieing, but get off the soap box and drop the propaganda. Its a job and a lot of mind manipulation. The voter who works 9-5 at a shit job for his shit salary out of which he pays his taxes is just as noble.
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Postby Karikhan » Mon Jun 24, 2002 9:40 am

To me, Ensis was thanking US ... the military ... he specifically singled out those who are given orders and abide by them
without question ...

When i joined the Navy .. I swore to protect and defend ... also to obey the orders of those appointed above me ...

I personally feel it is my duty to do so ... to follow lawful and direct orders ... and i expect the same of those below me .. we put our lives at risk so the greater population can have freedoms set forth in our Constitution ... my old job had soooo many benefits i won't even go into them .. but the risks were very VERY great

It was pretty damn scary flying to and from the USS Enterprise most specifically between Sept 12th and Nov 9th ... in an UNARMED aircraft ... in a slow moving prop type cargo-carrying airplane ... im sure there were fighters out there somewhere flying with us.. but we couldn't see them ... not to mention the days right after sept 11th .. walking in downtown Bahrain carrying my Navy Issued gas mask ...

so before you scoff at us ... thank us ...the men and women who would die for you and have DIED for you ... and your freedoms.. for the men and women who leave their familys .. the fathers who miss their baby's birth ... the mommy's (ME) who miss first words, who miss their kid's learning to walk ... Christmas and birthdays....

Daz U ask how you earn respect by dying .. o PLEASE! Tho many innocent men women and children died in those awful acts on september 11th ... the police officers and firefighters DIED saving lives .. THEY are heroes and dont you DARE say otherwise!!!!!!!! rofl i just infuriated myself by reading your post again .. ok i will stop now......

/end rant??

-Ambar loves all of you Image

Edit: OMFG I just read your post Caz ... all I can say is .. OMFG

[This message has been edited by Karikhan (edited 06-24-2002).]
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Postby Jegzed » Mon Jun 24, 2002 9:56 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Karikhan:
so before you scoff at us ... thank us ...the men and women who would die for you and have DIED for you ... and your freedoms.. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is a position between between scoffing and cheering.

I do NOT think a soldier is worth any more praise than any other human.

A factory worker working 8 hours a day, making society function, paying his taxes is as worthy of praise as the soldier.

And don't give me crap about innocent victims in wars, until you've read about Dresden. (The vilest single act ever made by humans.)



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Postby rylan » Mon Jun 24, 2002 11:59 am

I'll still thank our armed forces for everything they do. Image
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Postby Karikhan » Mon Jun 24, 2002 12:01 pm

I totally agree that everyone has equal merit .. any person that earns an honest living has my total respect...and i'm not saying we (the military) are any better for what we do than anyone else .. after all the risks we do take daily are in the line of duty .. and MOST of us volunteered for the right to die for our country.....



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Postby Ensis » Mon Jun 24, 2002 12:36 pm

Daz.. I didn't say "thank these guys, and to hell with everyone else". Don't put words in my mouth.

What did I say?... I said there are people shivering in foxholes right now because they believe they're protecting people like you from a terrorist threat, regardless of the fact that you would throw it in their face if you met them tomorrow.

Yea, it's a paying job, if any of you know anything about hte military it's not a well paying job. I'm an E4(Specialist) in the army and I make about $1500 a month, plus about $250 for parachute pay and language proficiency pay. My average work day is 6am to 6pm. Sometimes I work weekends too, sometimes I work 20 hour days.. It's not a very good salary. Why do I do it? Because it gives me some semblance of an idea that I'm giving back to my country.

Do I think everyone should?.. sure the idea is good, but our country is founded on people being able to make their own decisions, and a mandatory conscription would go against that.

I was only asking that a few people think about the 18 year old boys getting shot at, for you.

Yes, I have every respect for the factory worker, the cops and firefighters, even the McDonald's clerks.

I said set aside the political implications because we don't get the option to choose. When you enlist in the military you agree to do what you're told when you're told. We all cling to the basic idea, that we are protecting our people, despite what the politicians are using us for.

I'd like to know what you do that demands so much respect.. and if you'd read my post more clearly i wasn't asking for that, I was asking for thanks, and to maybe think for a minute what they are sacrificing for you.

If you want to debate me Daz please do it via tells, this wasn't meant as a forum to express your opinion on the state of the union, I just wanted to thank members of the military for what they do. If you want to start one on those you mentioned, feel free, I wont post anything negative on it.
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Postby Kasula » Mon Jun 24, 2002 1:01 pm

First, soldiers chose their profession like everyone else choses their profession too. I dont see the President making a holiday or have a yellow ribbon to celebrate my profession. Second, people in the armed forces are trained murders, you can sugar coated it as much as you want. But murder is still a murder... no matter if your doing it for god and country, or your robbing banks. We believe that we can just drap ourselves in the american flag and run off to another third world country and invade, topple, pillage and plunder their lands and people. Which is nothing but all propaganda! Why does the serial killer get sent to death while a soldier that destroyes a whole village and kills everyone in there get a medal? A murder is still a murder.

People they come together
And people they fall apart
No one can stop us now
'CAUSE WE ARE ALL MADE OF STARS!'- MOBY

[This message has been edited by Kasula (edited 06-24-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Kasula (edited 06-24-2002).]
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Postby Snurgt » Mon Jun 24, 2002 2:15 pm

Jeezus, people can find a way to argue about anything.
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Postby Gort » Mon Jun 24, 2002 3:24 pm

To all those in the US military, and UN peacekeeping forces:

Thank YOU!


Having served in the US military for 11 years, and having been an Engineer, I can say that while we are trained to defend ourselves, and to carry out offensive actions in defense of our nation, we are not "all murderers". If someone shoots at you Kasula, and you kill them, are you a murderer, or were you acting in self defense?

I'm not saying our leaders don't put us in compromising positions, and may or may not have altruistic motivations, but to call all members of the military trained murders, is insulting.

If you don't like the freedoms you enjoy, whatever country you live in, apply for citizenship and to move to someplace like North Korea where the government tells you what to do every day.

Personally my unit was responsible for such things as building over 30 schools in Honduras and a highway linking their two coasts, we did improvements on local state and national parks, rennovated Fitzimmons Army Medical Hospital, and turned an old middle school into a DEA training and storage facility.

Not everything the military does involves violence. It was mentioned we "destroy" villages... well, some may get damaged, but many also are saved. War isn't a pretty business, and bad things happen on both sides, and to both sides.

The last people who want war, is the soldiers, we have the most to lose.

The pay is crap for the hours, and it is a largely thankless job (not that there aren't a plethora of those).

So again, to those who serve in all the thankless jobs and countries, Thank you!


Toplack

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Postby Ensis » Mon Jun 24, 2002 3:40 pm

I just want to express my most sincere and deepest apologies to Kasula and Daz for so blatently saying such a horrible thing and offending them. I've seen the light, you both proved me wrong..thank you for showing me the error of my ways.



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Postby Galkar » Mon Jun 24, 2002 4:17 pm

Factory workers get paid. Soldiers get paid. IMHO, I think it takes a lot of balls to train to kill and go to the field and get shot at by an enemy, even if you are getting paid. Factory workers get paid for a ton less risk. And yeah, I work in a factory.

I was in the boy scouts for a while and one of the scout masters was a Vietnam Vet. He was a green beret and was over there for quite some time. He spent weeks at a time in the jungle either alone or with several others. He was brought home and awared a purple heart after an incident. He was walking waist deep in a river, patrolling, and an enemy was hiding in the water, jumped out, and shot him point blank in the chest. He grabbed the guy and broke his neck right there. Luckily the bullet was damp. My old scout master still, to this day, has severe flashbacks and nightmares about serving in the military for his country. He is one of the most patriotic, noble, honorable, and kindest men I've ever met, and he loved his country. It's men and women like him that I respect, and look up to. Men and women of the military, period.

I for one do not have the balls to go into the military. I'll admit that. Not just based on the above story, but also based on my father, uncle, and both grandfathers. I don't believe I'd be able to take it. It takes a strong person to do it. Of body and mind. And I respect anyone who will take a job where they could be killed in the line of duty. Even if they get paid.

Paychecks don't mean anything if your dead.

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Postby Auril » Mon Jun 24, 2002 5:14 pm

My national anthem is one of the most stirring songs I know. I am proud of my country. Although I am overweight and physically disabled, I know that if someone were coming to attack my country I would do what I could to protect it and those I love. I feel it fiercely. I also understand myself enough to know that it'd be an entirely different thing to have to go somewhere else, to another country, to attack them there. It's not my home, there. It's not them invading me, there. It's an entirely different situation, and one I don't think I could choose. I am grateful that I don't have to make that choice, that others are willing to go there instead of me.

I'm also grateful for my pharmacists for knowing my name and how to spell it, to the emergency room staff for doing their best even though when we were there last there were two kids in dire shape, someone who'd been electrocuted, someone else needing stitches for his jaw, etc., and to the people at the fast food place who made our order as we requested instead of as usual.

I brought cookies to the fire hall and the police department, I called the fast food place to thank the manager, I have great respect for the military, and in general I have respect and admiration for the people here. Thank you for being here.
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Postby Kifle » Mon Jun 24, 2002 5:30 pm

Right on kasula!

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Postby Zrax » Mon Jun 24, 2002 5:37 pm

Anti military hippies crack me up, they take the most and give back the least to a system they love to complain about.

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Postby Jegzed » Mon Jun 24, 2002 5:57 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zrax:
<B>Anti military hippies crack me up, they take the most and give back the least to a system they love to complain about.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I spent my two days in the military when getting drafted, and thats enough for me to realise that I serve my country better in another position Image




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Postby moritheil » Mon Jun 24, 2002 10:12 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B> Not to downplay the drama or anything, but I, for one - am glad that I am alive. To give other people respect for dying seems patently absurd if you ask me.

Respect should never be 'given' - it must be earned. How does death merit respect?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They died so you could live.
3nj0y.

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Postby moritheil » Mon Jun 24, 2002 10:13 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jegzed:
<B>And don't give me crap about innocent victims in wars, until you've read about Dresden. (The vilest single act ever made by humans.)
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How about the Nanjing Rape? 80,000 killed/raped. And how are there not innocent victims?
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Postby moritheil » Mon Jun 24, 2002 10:15 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kasula:
<B> Why does the serial killer get sent to death while a soldier that destroyes a whole village and kills everyone in there get a medal? A murder is still a murder.
[This message has been edited by Kasula (edited 06-24-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Kasula (edited 06-24-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because they are the enemy. Why do you kill the dragon and fheal the tank?

It's simple, yes, and it's somewhat ugly, but I'm afraid that's reality.
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Postby Upgup » Mon Jun 24, 2002 11:35 pm

I thankful for the military everyday. Awhile back ago was my 18th brithday I did my duty and signed up for selective service. AT that time I was entertaining the notion of joining the navy and being a nuclear engineer. I took all the test and scored high. Then the time to make the decision came to either sign up or not, I got jittery and I didn't sign up. No i'm not a lesser person for not signing up but it gives me a greater respect for people who did it takes alot of courage just to sign. I can only imagine what its like after that. But anyone who has disrespect for any military service i suggest you try to fit in thier shoes just for a couple of days. I think your view would change.

The military does something extrodarnary so you can live an ordinary life.

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Postby kiryan » Tue Jun 25, 2002 5:13 am

ok my utmost sincere thanks for working in the military and defending us.

can i now make a call that you all show me some respect and not scoff at me, a tax paying citizen? I pay your ass and provide for your equipment. It may not be much in your point of view, but its superior to anywhere else on earth. Also, you can thank me for your education, your health and fitness, room and board, and for helping to choose our fine president and commander in chief, George W. Bush. It ain't onesided. I'd argue I do as much to protect our country as our military. You ought to respect me as much as your commanders. And you can drop the civilian crap, im a human being just like you.
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Postby Jorus » Tue Jun 25, 2002 5:22 am

Wow, I LOVE the self-importance, kiyran.

No way on earth is paying taxes an equivalent contribution to going out there and risking your life. Not even close.

Regards,
Jorus
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Postby Jegzed » Tue Jun 25, 2002 5:33 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
How about the Nanjing Rape? 80,000 killed/raped. And how are there not innocent victims?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well.. who is innocent? Killing civilians is a proven way to weaken your enemies infrastructure, and no western country has ever objected to using that tactic.

One of the vilest killers humanity ever saw was Arthur Harris, the head of RAF bomber command in the later parts of WW2. His tactic of terror bombing civilians with RAF and USAF bombers, cost over 600,000 german civilians, women and children their lives. The Dresden firestorm alone took almost a 1/6 of that number in a 2-day firestorm.

He got a medal, and was never reproached.



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Postby Daz » Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:08 am

I don't want anyone to get the impression that I do not have respect for members of the American Armed Forces. I do. My little brother has been in the army for 3 years now. They have made him a better person, and helped him out in his life alot. Most of my family was in one branch of the military or another. The only reason I did not join was because I was so heavily pressured to join.

My point is that while I show respect for these people, I do not show them more respect than I do other people. Want to know who I respect? My 70 year old grandmother who has worked a full time state job for 40+ years to raise 10 children, and then 2 grandchildren when their parents did not want them. She has worked full time, with minimal pay, minimal benefits, and never complained once. Give a damn holiday to my grandmother, and I will give a lot more merit to other people in this country who bust their ass every day of their lives without a medal on their chest or a ribbon around their shoulder.

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Postby Daz » Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:18 am

By the way, I am not trying to inflame anything here, I am merely expressing my opinion on the matter. While you may not care what I think, and that is your right, I am offended by this type of post. I'm no anti-military hippy, but I strongly feel that there are enough people within our own boundaries who work every day of their life, not just for 4 years, to take care of the children of this country. It annoys me to see people singled out as 'more deserving' of respect than someone else, merely because of their profession.

I do not dislike the military. I dislike singling out their profession as more worthy. I have been a firefighter, I have had my relationships with the military - do you know what I know? They are all just people. I know firefighters who sit around eatting food and dread any real work, I know military enlistees who only joined to get laid. By your criteria, those people deserve my respect. I disagree.

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Postby Corth » Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:40 am

If you cannot respect someone who risks EVERYTHING they have (i.e. their life) so that you can live in a safe place and be able to have the luxury of mudding or doing whatever the hell else you do, then you are certainly not worthy of MY respect.

Corth

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Postby Kifle » Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:49 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
<B> Because they are the enemy. Why do you kill the dragon and fheal the tank?

It's simple, yes, and it's somewhat ugly, but I'm afraid that's reality.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What did any one army member in vietnam ever do to any other member of our army before that war ever started mori?! not one damn thing and we killed them why?! because our president and those in charge told us they were wrong, or that for some reason we were pissed of at their leader. So the enemy is not the man or men starting the war, but the ones forced to fight it yes? That is a silly form of logic you carry dear.

Wars should be fought with words not guns...or at least put the ones that start the fight in the front line with the gun and have them duke it out...My uncle never once had a problem with any vietnamese, but he was forced to kill without abandon and fight for his life. That is an injustice to him...He is a laid back guy and now he cant see out of his left eye and has a horrible limp from a damn granade. He sure as hell didnt start that fight, why the hell was he fighting it?

I guess the political powers are damn smart though. They are the little guy at school that messes with the big guy, then gets his big friends to ruff him up.

Do I respect the people in the armed forces, yeah. Do i agree with what any of them do, no. Do i understand that at this point in time that it is necessary, yes. But lets get one thing straight, i am with kiyran and daz on this one...If you guys want to go around parading your guns and kill you some turban heads, so be it, but dont think you are better than me when you come home...dont expect me to stand on the side of the road when you come down in your extravagant parade because you killed people who more than likely didnt even want to point a gun at you in the first place. its murder no matter how you look at it.

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Postby Daz » Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:57 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kifle:
i am with kiyran and daz on this one...</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

these words may never be heard again . . .

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Postby combatmedic » Tue Jun 25, 2002 8:42 am

I for one, would like to thank all my bretheren out there living under a poncho in order to defend the freedom of not only the U.S., but many other nations out there.

Yes, many things we do in self interest, but the United States stands as the bulwark against terrorism and many things evil and unjust out there. We are not perfect, but we do not go out and murder thousands. For those of you who think the U.S. military razes entire villages and kills little children routinely need to take a look at yourself. We do have rules of war, we don't go out looking for the first helpless victim handy to target practice on... Unless you lived through what happened to our boys, please watch your inflammitory tongue. Go talk to a Vietnam or Korean war vet that has been through it, let them tell you of thier nightmares and thier stories. Go to the countries where thier brothers and sisters in arms have died and walk the boardwalk where thier only testament is a few pillars rising out of the fog telling of thier story. It wasn't for a fucking ribbon that they wear once or twice a year until they retire, or die.

If i hadn't injured my self defending and patrolling the borders of the U.S. and Korea I would have signed right up for active duty and had me shipped out there to the middle of nowhere like i had been for the last 4 years. But unfortunately, three knee surgeries and a handful of doctors who tell me that if i ever play a sport again, or ever start running, I will end up in a wheelchair by the age of 60 keep me from signing back up. I swear, only a few things sadder than a 25 yr old "disabled vet." At least i can still walk... I didn't join the army to be a combatmedic for the pitifully sad 1200 dollars a month of take home pay. I didn't join the army for my "cushy benefits" because anyone who has joined the service know what "military benefits" are really like. If you wanna know, just ask any Veterans' Affairs patient. I sure as hell didn't join the military for a fistfull of dollars to help me through college, because i could have gotten the same amount of money just off of finacial aid.

I joined the military because i felt the need to serve my country, and to serve humanity. I was out there in the jungles too, I was on the 38th parallel and have been shot at, my first freaking patient as a medic had his brains shot out (sadly this was all only 4 years ago, peacetime, heh). I have been through the 120 temperatures, and the -80 degree temperatures; all to help serve and protect you. Whether you live in the U.S. or not. Don't give me any bullshit that your money pays for my paycheck, cause you know what? Soldiers pay taxes too. In fact, they make so little, that we have to have a special tax code so the government doesn't take too much money from us because technically we are below the poverty level. I respect that people work hard to support thier families, but you know what? YOU ARE SUPPOSSED TO DO THAT! Try supporting a wife and kids while deployed 6 months out of a year, there is a reason why the military is hard on health and marriages. Our families worked hard too, my mom raised us kids by herself with two jobs because poor old dad was always away. I worked as a commercial fisherman (suppossedly one of the most dangerous jobs in the world) for 4-5 years in Alaskan waters and had many friends out there in that short time, and now i work full time, go to school full time (with a 3.84 GPA), and have to juggle doctors appoinments because my legs don't like to work right, yet I still am most proud of Dave the medic, over Dave the fisherman, over Dave the "A" student while juggling full time work with physical disabilities (therapy, consults, surgery), over mom who supported a family of 3 kids and one drunk dad (but i still love you more than life itself mommy).

The reason why is because Dave the medic didn't sit at home talking about how soldiers don't deserve respect (because they do), and how they are trained murderers (because they aren't). Dave the commercial fisherman was working and paying his taxes to help himself, to help support his family and save money. Dave the student is only trying to better himself and pay bills. Mom is thinking of supporting her family (thank you mom), selfless to a fault, in order that her boys and girls are raised right. But Dave the combatmedic was thinking of his country, and people (American, Korean, Bosnian, doesn't matter). He didn't loose sight of that while participating in peacekeeping missions, war exercises, or patrolling borders against North Koreans. And i am betting the majority of people who serve in the military for some length of time will say the same. So dont' go telling me that you deserve so much respect because you pay taxes like our soldiers do, because you put in a regular 9-5 job daily compared to a 24hr a day 365 day a year job. Because believe me, even if that soldier is only there for ass, once he heads out into that battlefield and finds hot metal flying at him, he's there to defend our homes.

end rant.

I am sorry if that seemed a little self centered and egotistical, the few who know me, know that i am usually one of the most selfless guys you could meet. Please don't see my post as a "i've had a harder life than you post" because i was only trying to illistrate that if have done many things yet cherish my military time the most. If someone had told me all that would happen to me if i joined, i would still do so, inspite of the knee injuries. The whole reason i was a medic, and am studying to be a Physician's Assistant is to help people. Not the pay. Anyone who is in the medical field knows that PA's do the same thing as doctors pretty much, but without thier nice salary (although ours is pretty nice i guess). I guess i just get worked up when i am lacking of sleep and when people take a nice post thanking those who serve others into something nasty. Thank you to all the people serving our country, military or otherwise. Much love to my fellow squids, leathernecks, grunts, air jockeys, and everything inbetween! =)

Dave


Edit: Kifle, i agree with you on your uncle's part. Vietnam was America's embarrassment in more ways than one, and still is a festering wound. But as long as there are people out there who test biological warefare on thier citizens, as long people attempt genocide on another race, religion, or skin color, there will be a need for police, and the military. A few eloquently spoken words will not prevent a single bullet flying at you, or at your children, or at someone else's children. But a cop, arresting that person, or soldiers stopping a terrorist leader so that no more planes can be hijacked or buildings blown up can.
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"Incoming force missles have the right of way!"


Dalen the super paly.
Aram the novice paly.

[This message has been edited by combatmedic (edited 06-25-2002).]
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Postby Karikhan » Tue Jun 25, 2002 9:52 am

I love when civilians say they pay us

it makes me friggin laugh my ASS off

do you not realize we pay taxes too?? so in a sense .. i pay myself???

ROFL

and I might have been doing this a LITTLE longer than 4 years I have been leaving my kids for 16.5 almost 17 years!

I feel everyone should do a stint in a branch of the military ... hell join the Coast Guard .. do something before you feel you have the right to talk shit..... in other countires all men and women are required to do some time in the military ... would do some people good Image Imagine the group full of people that were TRAINED to work together .. giggle .. wooowoo Image

Keep in mind some day I will be that grandmother that you respect .. snicker.. I raise my children too (i have two BEAUTIFUL girls ages 13 and 15 who sure have missed their mommy .. i thank GOD i was there at the most important times .. when they needed me most)... tho I dont work in a state office ... per se....

I work in the blistering sun of 150+ degree deserts .. I wear full flight deck gear in 120+ degree weather on the flight deck of aircraft carriers ... I work in the sub-zero weather of the deepest coldest winters... I am the lucky ass who gets to watch the launch of fully loaded jets and have the satisfaction of seeing them come back empty .. and to hear the news reports of enemies blown up (YES Innocents die but the friggin nasty guys HIDE behind them...did you know they use women and children as SHIELDS??? then cry how much we kill the innocent .. blow me assholes!!!(figurative statement as i have nothing to BLOW))

I respect every man woman and child who busts their asses to keep the country going while I and my brothers and sisters are off defending you

just give US the rights and respect we deserve .. we only get the respect when something nasty happens and we come running to defend you .... all the flags that people flew when the WTC and Pentagon got bombed have long faded and are tattered and frayed now ... all the people that only scream patriotism when something bad happens .. gee see how we stick together ...(dont get me wrong the US sticks our head WAAAY too far up peoples asses sometimes .. where we dont belong)

I KNOW what I do and I'm friggin PROUD of my job ... and I pay my friggin taxes JUST like YOU do ... so blow it out yer ass Image

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Postby rylan » Tue Jun 25, 2002 12:05 pm

It comes down to a few simple facts...

If they weren't out there defending our country, then it would be one of us.

If they weren't out there kicking some enemy ass, then we'd be getting picked off by these terrorist assholes a lot worse then sept. 11th

I don't like war in general, but when it comes down to us (america) against them (terrorists, enemies etc), I'd rather see all them dead than any of us.
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Postby Galkar » Tue Jun 25, 2002 12:42 pm

I always viewed the military as basically the same as a corporation.

I love mechanical engineering. I love doing my work. I love being in the factory, on the floor, working hand in hand with the operators to make a good product.

Members of the armed forces love the things they do in the military, that's why they join.

There's the place called the corporate office for my company. It's full of "suits" as I call them, that have business and law degrees. They bring in their people, with no practical knowledge of manufacturing, and place them as my bosses, plant managers, HR directors, etc. Then, they tell me that it's important for the company that I 5S my work area (i.e. put little boxes of tape on my desk around my stapler and label it stapler). I'm like, bullshit, I'm not doing it! But you know what, I have to, otherwise I get in trouble. But what makes me do it, is that I love my job working on the floor, doing the engineering that I love.

Military is basically the same if you ask me. You've got the operators of the military in the field and on the bases. Then you've got the coporate offices in D.C. Same scenarios, they tell you to "do this and that" and if you don't, well, yer toast. But you keep doing it because it's what you love.

As per my above post though, I'm not saying that the military is on a level with a manufacturing company, since it takes a special breed to be there. However, the basic chain of command appears to work the same.

You guys in the military, please correct me if I'm wrong. But don't you have superiors that every once in a while make you do things that you feel are stupid and unecessary?

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Postby Karikhan » Tue Jun 25, 2002 12:48 pm

We are charged to obey the orders of those above us .. yes on occasion we feel it is dumb and we want to question it .. but we are trained to not question unless it would affect personal safety, or the safety of others.

During times of war, soldiers cannot afford to question their superiors ... there just isnt time .. it could be a matter of life or death ..

We in the Navy are FAR more lax on obeying orders than .. say the Marines or Army .. they are trained to NEVER question ...

Nothing pisses me off more than telling someone to do something necessary .. and they ask me WHY ... um it's taking out the garbage asshole .. it's me or you .. im the boss you aren't .. do it

I often wish we could just fire people .. snicker ... but we can't .. sigh ..

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Postby Ensis » Tue Jun 25, 2002 12:58 pm

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Honestly, if Aram's and Ambar's post didn't make you second guess anti-military/anti-government stands in regards to my post (which shouldn't have come up in the first place..yeesh), maybe this will.

1. People join the military for various reasons. Get out of the house, first real job, college money, it was in the family, patriotism, etc.. But there is no swell of pride greater when we hear a civilian say "thanks".

2. Yes we fight, and in the end we'll kill. It isn't for a religious crusade to convert infidels in other countries, it isn't to promote a political agenda. WE do it for you. I can't speak for the politicians that decide which engagements we're involved in, but you should understand taking up a rifle and trucking out to the battlefield with live rounds is a pretty big sacrifice. I, for one, have never killed anyone, and the prospect isn't very appealing. But I'd do it for you.

3. The enemies we fight are the most soulless you could imagine. I'm in intelligence, this isn't propaganda, believe me they do horrible things. On a certain mission we found out smugglers were bringing their cargo into the us via the corpses of babies held by women.

There are rules to dictate who the "innocents" and the "noncombatants" are. Unfortunately, the only ones that follow these rules are the good guys. Us. In somalia, when the shooting starts, people dont run and hide, they crowd to the streets to get a better look. Then some joker with a kalishnikov hides out and picks the guys off. If you saw blackhawk down and thought "damn, that must've been horrible" think again. I have friends that were there. There were a few hundred of them fighting the ENTIRE city. The warlords were blasting "the christians are here to take away our religion" over loudspeakers. Every man, woman, and child with a firearm was trying to kill them. Try to survive for an 18 hour firefight in a third world country where all they've got left is their faith and they think you are trying to take it from them.

What do you do when the boy next to you gets hit by a bullet that came from a crowd of people?..what do you do knowing your number is next? Laws of war dictate you don't fire on noncombatants. If you were standing there with an m249 machinegun, what would you do?

In vietnam the VC chained civilians to their anti-aircraft guns as camoflauge, and so that we wouldn't fire on them. Do you watch your friends die? or do you break the rules.

I'm trying to say we joined to do things that we WOULDNT want to do because it needs to be done. If there was no military we'd be overrun. Is the system bad? yes. Is the institution poorly managed? of course. Why? Because it's run by humans, and humans aren't perfect.

Think about this next time you go to bed in your comfy bed. When you go to breakfast you don't have to dodge gunfire. When you go to the hospital you don't have to worry about whether or not the medicine has all been stolen, and when you get on a bus to go from point a to point b it isn't commonplace that it gets shaken down by terrorist/insurgent groups, or worseyet, by the cops.

Aram, Ambar, and I only want to illustrate that there is a greater sacrifice offered by the servicemembers of this country than benefits received. I only wanted to hear a few of you say "thank you".

Sorry for the rant...


[This message has been edited by Ensis (edited 06-25-2002).]
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Jun 25, 2002 1:48 pm

For anybody who seems to think that military benefits are where it's at... you obviously haven't spent much time in your local VA hospitals. As an EMT I've seen them all in my area, and I would almost rather bleed out on the side of the road than be taken to the VA. I no longer work as an EMT, but if I'm ever in a situation like that and I have a choice, you sure as hell won't find me in one of the worst-funded medical institutions in the nation. Too bad many people, including those who gave up their wholeness of body so that we could continue to live in a land of advanced education and privatization, don't have many other options.
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Postby Nazruth » Tue Jun 25, 2002 2:38 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by combatmedic:
<B> We are not perfect, but we do not go out and murder thousands.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Vietnam.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Go talk to a Vietnam or Korean war vet that has been through it, let them tell you of thier nightmares and thier stories.
[/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What would that accomplish other than assuring they are suffering from nightmares for no good reason whatsoever. And the people responsible of those nightmares are living out fat, rich lives in the US. Why do you have Vietnam vets in the first place?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
all to help serve and protect you. Whether you live in the U.S. or not.
[/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are not protecting me from anything, little soldier. Please stop being naive.

-- Naz
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Postby Nazruth » Tue Jun 25, 2002 2:47 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Karikhan:
<B> (YES Innocents die but the friggin nasty guys HIDE behind them...did you know they use women and children as SHIELDS??? then cry how much we kill the innocent .. blow me assholes!!!
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


What a sad and pathetic person you are. So you are saying it is ok to blow away the hostages because bad men hide behind them. What if it was YOU being held hostage. What if it was YOUR CHILDREN being held hostage. And here I come, I'm fighting for FREEDOM and I blow away your children in the name of FREEDOM and I am right to do so because a bad man was hiding behind them.

I hope your children learn nothing from you.

-- Naz
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Postby cherzra » Tue Jun 25, 2002 2:50 pm

Ooh I feel a big flame war coming, time to grab my popcorn!

emote lays his feet on the desk, grabs the popcorn and clicks on 'refresh'.

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Postby Nazruth » Tue Jun 25, 2002 2:58 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ensis:
<B>
In vietnam the VC chained civilians to their anti-aircraft guns as camoflauge, and so that we wouldn't fire on them. Do you watch your friends die? or do you break the rules.

I'm trying to say we joined to do things that we WOULDNT want to do because it needs to be done.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So why, exactly, did you need to be in Vietnam?

-- Naz
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Postby Galkar » Tue Jun 25, 2002 3:41 pm

Question 1....

You're in the army. You're on patrol, walking through a village. A 13 year old kid steps out from behind a bush carrying an AK-47. The kid points the gun at you and takes aim at your heart. The kid obviously is a child of the people you are fighting against. What do you do? Let him shoot you? Or shoot him first?

Question 2....

Take above kid and replace with woman. Besides, women can do everything men can do, why segregate them with the children?

Question 3....

A man with a machine gun is holding a hostage in front of him. This man has killed americans, and has no love for you. You are there with several others in your unit, and he starts firing on you. He hits and kills one other person in your unit, yet continues to hold the hostage in front of him, and continues to fire on you. What do you do?

Frankly, if it were me, I'd rather die knowing I saved lives, than have the soldiers turn and walk away just to be killed anyway. One less terrorist/enemy around to kill others. Who knows, that one terrorist/enemy might be the one who drops the next bomb in our country.

Nazruth....

If the military wasn't overseas running down terrorists/enemies, eliminating threats, those terrorists/enemies would be here in the US and in other countries wreaking twice as much havoc as they have done in the past.

Wars like the Vietnam and Korean were bad wars, yes. We got drug into them when we shouldn't have, yes. But, if you're a soldier, and you are ORDERED to do something, and you refuse because you don't think it's morally right, you risk loosing everything you've worked hard in the military to accomplish. So why take it out on the soldier? Seems stupid to do so if you ask me.

Frankly, the arguement "What if it were your children" doesn't hold up in my eyes. If it were my children, I would be angry, mad, sad, upset, hurt, destroyed. But I will NOT be selfish to the point where I will say "better the kids of those three families instead of my child", as long as everything else that could have been done to save them was tried. Either way, a family will be crushed, why make it three families, or 100 families, or 1000 families, when it only has to be one. It's horrible, true, but it's the way this god forsaken earth works. Get used to it.

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[This message has been edited by Galkar (edited 06-25-2002).]
Karikhan
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Postby Karikhan » Tue Jun 25, 2002 4:23 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Nazruth:
<B>
What a sad and pathetic person you are. So you are saying it is ok to blow away the hostages because bad men hide behind them. What if it was YOU being held hostage. What if it was YOUR CHILDREN being held hostage. And here I come, I'm fighting for FREEDOM and I blow away your children in the name of FREEDOM and I am right to do so because a bad man was hiding behind them.

I hope your children learn nothing from you.

-- Naz

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When did I say it was ok?? I simply illustrated what these people do ... they use women and children and other INNOCENTS as shields ... then they cry how evil we are by killing their innocent. Maybe you need to read my post again??? When we get intelligence that the enemy is going to be in a certain spot .. we bomb that spot only to find it full of innocent victims of war ... then the enemy claims we kill only innocents .. women and children... they show graphic images of children all burned and dead and dying ... then they say how evil the U.S. is .. those assholes PUT their children, their FUTURE in the way of harm .. on purpose .. cowardly scum that they are!!! THAT is what i mean ... NEVER have we PURPOSELY killed innocents ..... Innocent people die as a result of war.. a fact none of us can change ... facts that we regret, but we still cannot change...

apparently you have never seen the vicious propaganda these people put out .. espousing the evils of the United nations, more specifically the U.S.

and what if it was my children?? i would never do that to my children ...

get your head outta your a$$ and breathe some clean air Image

thank you .. please drive through

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Postby combatmedic » Tue Jun 25, 2002 5:29 pm

I may not be protecting you from anything, but someone like me is. If they weren't, some country, or group would have taken over your home a long time ago. As long as there are people out in the world who use violence, there will have to be people who will have to enforce peace by meeting fist with fist, gun with gun. You use Vietnam as your excuse to bash soldiers who were just trying to stay alive for a year or two, fighting for an unknown cause. That makes you no better than all those people who were putting the hate on the soldiers coming back home for fighting for what they thought were your rights and freedoms. Don't blame the soldiers, blame the leaders. No soldier signed on so he could kill women and children. But when 10 year old boys and girls come walking into your camp with a bomb under thier shirt, even that will disturb you in ways you can never know. As for being niave? Just because i am still an idealist, doesn't mean i am niave... You can keep on talking and whining from your little safe desk, but i am willing to bet that i have been through a hell of a lot more than you have in my short 25 yrs. But no more of this dick measuring contest... Keep your beliefs, i'll keep mine. I still respect the soldier because ultimately, he/she DOES keep us safe at night.

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"Incoming force missles have the right of way!"


Dalen the super paly.
Aram the novice paly.
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Postby combatmedic » Tue Jun 25, 2002 5:30 pm

Oh, and i love the drama of this post. Gives me something to do while i mud at night. =P Pass me some of your popcorn Chez!

------------------
"Incoming force missles have the right of way!"


Dalen the super paly.
Aram the novice paly.
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Postby Kifle » Tue Jun 25, 2002 6:16 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ensis:
<B>3. The enemies we fight are the most soulless you could imagine

[This message has been edited by Ensis (edited 06-25-2002).]

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong, the "enemies" that you fight are most often teenagers that are forced to point a gun at you. They were taught to hate you and usualy have no say in what happens to their lives. They fight mainly because they want to live to see their families again just like any US soldier...so why do they deserve to die...

The enemies you speak of are sitting behind their oak desks watching Friends on NBC. Soldiers are so deluded...



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Kifle "It Slipped I swear!" ButteryFingers
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Postby Kifle » Tue Jun 25, 2002 6:21 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Galkar:
<B>Question 1....

You're in the army. You're on patrol, walking through a village. A 13 year old kid steps out from behind a bush carrying an AK-47. The kid points the gun at you and takes aim at your heart. The kid obviously is a child of the people you are fighting against. What do you do? Let him shoot you? Or shoot him first?

Question 2....

Take above kid and replace with woman. Besides, women can do everything men can do, why segregate them with the children?

Question 3....

A man with a machine gun is holding a hostage in front of him. This man has killed americans, and has no love for you. You are there with several others in your unit, and he starts firing on you. He hits and kills one other person in your unit, yet continues to hold the hostage in front of him, and continues to fire on you. What do you do?

Frankly, if it were me, I'd rather die knowing I saved lives, than have the soldiers turn and walk away just to be killed anyway. One less terrorist/enemy around to kill others. Who knows, that one terrorist/enemy might be the one who drops the next bomb in our country.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Question 4...
Lets say a man is in the field with his ak-47...doesnt want to shoot you, is so scared he is pissing his pants, and is trembling...he is pointing his gun at you. What do you do? Shoot him? Why, he is not your enemy, he doesnt want to kill you. If a man enters my home and he has a gun and i shoot him what happens to me? I get sent to prison for murder, why? Because i am, by law, supposed to restrain this man and risk my own life to save his. Why is this different on the battlefield? In my home, this man wants to rob and possibly rape/kill me and my family...on the battlefield this man wants nothing to do with the assanine war and wants to be with his wife and kids. But, in the case of the robber/rapist, i am supposed to save this man's life at all cost and risk my own in doing so even though he has malicious intent on me and my family, but the other man wants nothing to do with me, and i am supposed to kill man #2?

Dont you just love the flawed logic of our justice, moral, and ethical system here in the great USA?!

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Kifle "It Slipped I swear!" ButteryFingers
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Postby Zrax » Tue Jun 25, 2002 6:33 pm

It's a sad day when we no longer feel safe to wander fields with just our AK-47 and good intentions.

rediculous...

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And shepherds we shall be, for Thee my Lord, for Thee.
Power hath descended forth from Thy hand,
that our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command.
We will flow a river forth unto Thee,
and teeming with souls shall it ever be.
In nomine Patris, et Fili, et Spiritu Sancti.

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