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Galkar
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Postby Galkar » Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:16 pm

Kifle, my meaning was this.

The man in the field wants nothing to do with me, yet he is pointing a weapon at me, whether he is pissing in his pants or not, he is still pointing the weapon at me. Like me, he has superiors who ordered him to do so. Do we like it? Hell no. But it comes down to kill or be killed. Who's going to carry out his orders first. Period. And I'll be damned if I'm gonna give my life by dropping my gun and trying to get him to drop his using a little psychoanalysis and psychiatry. Please. I'd get shot.

And Kifle, you ask, why do those kids deserve to die? Again, well, why do I deserve to die? Do I deserve to die from following orders, doing my job, and walking through a village?

Point is this. If that kid had come around the corner without a gun, these issues would never have come up, and I wouldn't have pointed my weapon.

If I had no weapon, would that kid point his gun at me? Probably.

In todays military, it's kill enemy or be killed by the enemy.

Oh, and if someone broke into my house with a gun, I'd shoot him in the leg and then call the cops. I'm a good shot with a 20 gauge. And people can and have gotten off from disabling intruders with a firearm.


Zrax, what's sad is a nation of people who will use CHILDREN to kill. What's sad is a nation who's leaders hide behind these children.

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Disoputlip
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Postby Disoputlip » Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:17 pm

I just spend a minute thinking about the people that do orders without questioning them, because they beleive in a purpose that is greater than them.

/Disoputlip
combatmedic
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Postby combatmedic » Tue Jun 25, 2002 8:27 pm

Usually the man who doesn't want to kill us, is taken in to custody by us. Thx to the many chances the military "tries" to give them. Hell, in the Gulf war, all we did was carpet bomb so the Iraquis would go underground. Inbetween the bombings we would drop pamphlets saying this isn't your war, give in, and we will take care of you. And we have to take good care of them because of Geneva convention. One reason why Bush doesn't want to count the terrorist forces as POW's is because of that i am thinking. In war with another country, we know thier boys are just like ours, some want to fight, some are deathly afraid. With those terrorist forces, every single one of them joined that organization, ever single one of them would kill a Westerner in a heartbeat. Each war has different circumstances. Stop kidding yourself if you think that all US soldiers like to do is kill others, and other armies are just poor people forced to kill. If that was so, we would not need war because no one would kill.

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"Incoming force missles have the right of way!"


Dalen the super paly.
Aram the novice paly.
Kifle
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Postby Kifle » Tue Jun 25, 2002 9:09 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by combatmedic:
<B>Usually the man who doesn't want to kill us, is taken in to custody by us. Thx to the many chances the military "tries" to give them. Hell, in the Gulf war, all we did was carpet bomb so the Iraquis would go underground. Inbetween the bombings we would drop pamphlets saying this isn't your war, give in, and we will take care of you. And we have to take good care of them because of Geneva convention. One reason why Bush doesn't want to count the terrorist forces as POW's is because of that i am thinking. In war with another country, we know thier boys are just like ours, some want to fight, some are deathly afraid. With those terrorist forces, every single one of them joined that organization, ever single one of them would kill a Westerner in a heartbeat. Each war has different circumstances. Stop kidding yourself if you think that all US soldiers like to do is kill others, and other armies are just poor people forced to kill. If that was so, we would not need war because no one would kill.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hahahh! you silly silly man. I am not at full understanding here...galkar says he would shoot him if he saw him, ensis says he would give him every chance to surrender...

That is my point, you should make him surrender and kill only if necessary, but most people in the army have galkars flawed mentality that all should die who step out in front of you. sad sad sad...

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Kifle "It Slipped I swear!" ButteryFingers
Kifle
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Postby Kifle » Tue Jun 25, 2002 9:13 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Galkar:
<B>Oh, and if someone broke into my house with a gun, I'd shoot him in the leg and then call the cops. I'm a good shot with a 20 gauge. And people can and have gotten off from disabling intruders with a firearm.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*clink*!! You know what that sound is?! That is galkar getting tossed in the pokey for attempted murder and assault with a deadly weapon! The system does not work for the victim. Wake up.

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Kifle "It Slipped I swear!" ButteryFingers
Kifle
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Postby Kifle » Tue Jun 25, 2002 9:15 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Galkar:
<B>

Zrax, what's sad is a nation of people who will use CHILDREN to kill. What's sad is a nation who's leaders hide behind these children.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Good thing our nation never sent kids of to war! Thank god for the USA!


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Kifle "It Slipped I swear!" ButteryFingers
combatmedic
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Postby combatmedic » Tue Jun 25, 2002 10:45 pm

I fail to see your reasoning Kifle. If the man is pointing his weapon at me instead of pointing it away, then yes, i will shoot him ala Galkar. We do try to give them every reason to give up, but if they point thier weapon, it stands to reason that they are going to shoot. Otherwise we let them give in, a la Ensis. All i see is that you are misreading the statements and trying to put your own senarios to them. You can give a person every chance to escape. If i was afraid of dying, the last thing i am going to do is point my weapon at people who are going to shoot me if i do. Do you think all those iraqui soldiers who gave up were pointing thier weapons at us? Hell no! So as i see it, there is no contradiction. But yeah, i see your point in that there are people who like to kill, but there are many more who don't. The military today is not the military it was yesterday... One person is not going in influence a unit, company, or platoon of soldiers to wipe out a bunch of people who are innocent or going to surrender.

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"Incoming force missles have the right of way!"


Dalen the super paly.
Aram the novice paly.
Axxsinlazzam
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Postby Axxsinlazzam » Wed Jun 26, 2002 5:05 am

I'm not really sure i want to jump in the middle of this topic but here is my 2 cents.
When I was in Desert Storm i had a chance to talk to a lot of the Iraqi soldiers.
The two that stick out in my head had this to say to me.
#1. He is a English teacher and was walking down the street when
a truck pulled up, snatched all the men on the street and put them in the middle of
desert.
They were given weapons and were told that the Americans were that way and the Iraqi army was the other way.
The Americans WILL kill you when they see you.
The Iraqi army had orders to shoot anyone coming from thier direction so they had better kill the Americans because
if they tried to run away thier own soldiers would kill them.
Those were the men who you seen on TV surendering in droves.
He thanked us that we came cause he thought WE were gonna kill S. Hussain for them.

#2. This guy was a Iraqi soldier.
He thought we were wrong in coming to free Kuwait. He kept on saying we're only here for Oil and what not.
He rambled on and on about how the American people would start crying and wailing
when thier sons and daughters would start coming home dead, how they were better trained...
I told this guy that in america people have the right to not like something about the
guys in charge without getting killed or having thier family held hostage because of what they said about the president.
I told him that he is right there are people in America that would start saying please get out boys and girls out of Kuwait.
Then i told him that every person in the U.S Military wanted to join. We were not forced to join, we WANTED to.
If it came down to killing some man woman and or kid thats a member of the side i'm fighting against in the battlefield then there will be a corpse there in the morning
if i have something to say about it.
That man woman and or kid placed his or hers own life at rist by fighting against the U.S Military.
That man woman and or kid can kill me if givin the right place and time.
I'm not going to place my life a risk when you can see the tracers coming from a AK thats being held by someone without firing back.
If they have hostages then do what you can to not harm them but you dont win war by getting yourself killed.
You win them by killing the other side.
Sounds harsh...SHRUG...This is not the police force, this is the MILITARY. In war time we dont set up barriers and negotiate with the bad guys to release the hostages.
I saw a LOT of bad sh*t over there.
Does it bother me no, its you or me.
And i value my life over someone who is shooting at me. War is hell, did I want to go there and save Kuwait over some oil? HELL NO! but i was a member of the United States Army. 2nd Armored Division (FWD), I got my orders and I did what I had to do.
Mine fields, Booby traped bunkers, 'friendly fire', bad guys shooting at you...
If your not able to serve the country that has gave so much to you and your family then dont serve because there are people here in america that will Defend and Protect.

My family has served in the military going back to WWII to the present.
Not because we WANTED to kill but out of a sense of honor in knowing that we gave something back to this land that has gave me everything i can strive for.

Shrug...Just thought i would say my 2 cents Image
Daelric
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Postby Daelric » Wed Jun 26, 2002 6:10 am

Greetings,

My deep, sincere, and heartfelt thanks go out to any person who puts their life on the line to protect others.

I thank the police, who work everyday to protect us from ourselves.

I thank the firefighters, who do the same.

And I thank the military. You are doing what I am not, and receiving little thanks. Worse, you are spit on for doing it. Just know that there are people, few though they may be, who recognize the sacrifice you have made, for whatever reason you have made it, and are thankful that you are out there.

Daelric
kiryan
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Postby kiryan » Wed Jun 26, 2002 6:52 am

military people pay taxes, and in most cases so have the unemployed, the welfare recipients, and others. So guess we shouldnt get down on the career unemployed or welfare folks either, cuz they pay themselves too.

btw there is something called the "draft" that I am registered for and I am prepared to go and fight/kill when it becomes necessary.

If being in the military is such a drag, why are there plenty of willing participants? If you say its cause most are uneducated, had no opportunities, ect, then the military is even more of a benefit to them rather than a benefit to me isnt it?

My life was built on the sweat and sacrifices of my parents and the subsidized education system. Some of you weren't as fortunate, some of you didnt work as hard, some weren't as talented, but im not gonna cry for you or give you any more respect than I give any voting, tax paying, law abiding citizen of any nation. Whether its down in the dirt in some 3rd country or as the priveliged elite, life aint fair, we each do what we can and doing exactly that is respectable.

You dare call me self righteous and full of myself then go one to expound the virtues of military folk. Different sides of a coin. But go ahead, perpetuate the myth that military folk are better than the rest of us, more patriotic, more noble or whatever it takes to motivate you to do your job and maintain your function in society.
cherzra
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Postby cherzra » Wed Jun 26, 2002 7:14 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Axxsinlazzam:
<B>#2. This guy was a Iraqi soldier.
He thought we were wrong in coming to free Kuwait. He kept on saying we're only here for Oil and what not.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well you were... There are dozens of places just like Kuwait, and the US could not care less whether the citizens there are opressed, killed, persecuted or jailed for life. Instead, the president and other high ranking individuals will gladly shake hands with those regimes, because the are gains to be had from dealing with them.

Don't go pretending you are saving the world from terorrism or evil, when in fact you are saving your own interests. Just be honest and say "hey I don't give a crap as long as it doesn't affect my business", at least I'd respect you better than the current "we're upholding world peace, the pillars of democracy, freedom and civil rights".

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Corth
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Postby Corth » Wed Jun 26, 2002 9:25 am

Kuwait was important to defend for two reasons. First, obviously, the Oil. Second, there was reason to believe that Hussein was going to continue his conquests and invade Saudi Arabia. This would have been overly de-stabalizing in an already dangerous and unstable region. For a number of reasons we have more of an interest in trying to keep the middle east stable then other regions.

So yes, we don't come to the aid of the dozens of kuwaits out there that didn't have the same strategic imperative as kuwait did. We are not in the business of giving out charity. I don't see how anyone could expect anything different. Where there is an interest that makes it worth sending out the troops, then it is done. Its smart foreign policy and use of taxpayer funds.

Corth

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Goddamned slippery mage.
Karikhan
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Postby Karikhan » Wed Jun 26, 2002 9:34 am

.

[This message has been edited by Karikhan (edited 06-26-2002).]
Galkar
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Postby Galkar » Wed Jun 26, 2002 2:01 pm

Kifle,
Quit trying to pull things out of what I say and make me sound like a murderer. What I said was if someone, a known enemy regardless of age, sex, and race, were to point a gun at me, I'm not going to sit by and watch the bullet fly from the barrel of their gun and hit me in the chest. You might, but I won't. I value my life more than I value the life of the man who would kill me.

And if you read what I said, I said if he hadn't have had the gun, I wouldn't have looked at him twice. And maybe I should spell something out for everyone.... If he'd had the gun and it wasn't pointed at me, I'd take precautions, but I wouldn't outright kill him. Quit putting words in my mouth, it won't gain you anything.

Oh, and btw, what's the age requirement to join the US military? Compare that age with the 10 and 12 year old kids overseas that would kill a US soldier at first sight because his leaders told him to. Children who are taught to hate anything American, just because. I'd bet half of those children don't even really know the reason WHY their leaders think we're bad. And don't even begin to reference any wars before Vietnam. Things have changed because of those wars and how ugly they were.

I dislike war as much as anyone. I dislike killing as much as anyone. But I put my life, my family's lives, American lives BEFORE the lives of terrorists who would just assume see us all dead. Including you Kifle.

Those kind of people are breathing air the rest of us are going to need some day.

And as far as shooting an intruder in my house.... I'm not as ignorant on that topic as you think I am. Image

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Valke
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Postby Valke » Wed Jun 26, 2002 3:38 pm

I appreciate all that the armed forces do for me and my country! I discourage the fact that "some" look down on me as a lesser being! *civilian*

I like the fact that our military can protect me against some really serious shit! I hate knowing that the US Government will be conqured from the inside!

Fallen soldiers, Vets, Mia, Pow My heart goes out to you and your family! but you new the risk.

Personaly I feel that being a soldier is another job. You all know the risk of joining, you all know the respect that should be paid to you, but should it? I see why not, Every one diserves respect in some way. except those pigs roming the streets trying to protect and serve themselves. Sucking away money to pay for school book that have been in the system for 8 years, only 13k a book, Bah what happened to me? oops! Any ways you soldiers out there that truely can say you put your life on the line for me! thanks alot I appreciate my freedom (even thought its getting stripped away by our own people) Be careful, and May your God bless you!

Grp...finds nothing.
Zrax
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Postby Zrax » Wed Jun 26, 2002 3:56 pm

Kiryan,

The post didn't say anything about military people being better than anyone else. It was just a praise to them for the service they provide. It's a sad statement about your self esteem that someone else recieving praise is viewed as a slight on yourself. Do you throw a hissy fit on mothers day too?

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And shepherds we shall be, for Thee my Lord, for Thee.
Power hath descended forth from Thy hand,
that our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command.
We will flow a river forth unto Thee,
and teeming with souls shall it ever be.
In nomine Patris, et Fili, et Spiritu Sancti.
Galkar
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Postby Galkar » Wed Jun 26, 2002 6:17 pm

Hehehehe

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Izizimmez
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Postby Izizimmez » Wed Jun 26, 2002 6:51 pm

Let's just let this topic die now.

Do any of you really think that you're going to enlighten anybody else?

I think we can all agree on one thing:
Sojourn is fun. Let's focus on that. Image

Follow the advice in my sig and be happy. Image

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Tog Vicious
Malacar
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Postby Malacar » Wed Jun 26, 2002 6:55 pm

Malacar wuz here.

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Malacar - omg ymir!
Gort
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Postby Gort » Thu Jun 27, 2002 9:03 pm

As for home intruders, in Colorado we have the wonderful "Make my day" Law, they come in, we can kill them.

In today's litigous (sp) society, we pretty much have to. Otherwise they sue us for harming/detaining them when they unlawfully enter our homes to steal/kill/rape etc US.

Walk a mile in the other person's shoes before you judge them.

Politicians are who decide who we go to war with, not soldiers. You either helped elect them, or didn't, if you didn't vote, go ahead and kick yourself now.

Would we have had a WWII if Hitler hadn't been appeased?

Would we have had a WW III if Hussien had been?

Think about it.

Toplack

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