Evil is supposed to be harder...

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
Rokub
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Evil is supposed to be harder...

Postby Rokub » Thu Jun 27, 2002 1:20 pm

I think sometimes people forget that this game is built to make the evil life harder.
Some evil towns are hard, time consuming, cause a lot of death and destruction.

You can't see in the light with some of the races. Which makes movement slower.

Now the thing is...

Most people forget to recognize this when asking for stuff. You seem to want everything to be balanced between goodies and evils.

This should not be the fact. Evil is supposed to be harder, no matter how you want to deny that fact.

I applaude the person trying to get goodberries implemented for the evil side, but its just not going to happen. Good is supposed to be easier. This is just a example of a imbalance and the fact, that I believe it should be a imbalance. To keep evil harder.

I hope this enlightens some of you who have forgot this game isn't supposed to be totally balanced.

Thanks,

Rokub

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Malacar says 'And Isma wonders why he is universally hated.'

[This message has been edited by Rokub (edited 06-27-2002).]
Laxlez
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Postby Laxlez » Thu Jun 27, 2002 4:20 pm

But it's not about balance. It's about yumminess! Mmmm.. Boo Berries!

But really, I don't care whether Evil is harder or not.. I had a ball playing Soj1/Toril as a troll.. And I've had a ball playing in this much easier atmosphere.

It's obvious that at the very least, Evils are supposed to be easier now than in past incarnations. Just look at DK. You can level beyond 40 in that town and have no fear of dying. Sure the orc hometown is death at lower levels, and Hyssk is death at any level, but overall, life has been made easier on evils, and it seems that some of the remaining hardships (not seeing in daylight) are more symbolic of the past difficulties than really there to make things difficult.

Regardless, I'm sure the gods know how hard they want it to be for evils, and will be sure it is that way. Let us have our fun evilberries threads! heh

-Laxlez
Grungar
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Postby Grungar » Thu Jun 27, 2002 4:31 pm

If evil is really supposed to be harder, evils should be able to headbutt themselves.

Hey, I never tried that. What does it say when you type 'headbutt self'?

- Grungar "I can count to three" Forgefire
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Postby Kegor » Thu Jun 27, 2002 4:45 pm

I agree with you fully Rokub. Evil is meant to be harder, and is. That is one of the reasons I enjoy it so much. See my post on the evilberry thread where I sarcasticly mock a few of our "imbalances". (Except for the Paladin group thing... they should still be global track.. cuz thats just fun.)
Teyaha
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Postby Teyaha » Thu Jun 27, 2002 5:34 pm

the evil side is challenging, but not hard.

the game is no longer in a state where it makes any sense to have the evil side be 'hard'. evil and good are now two seperate games here. if you make the evil side 'hard' you wont attract as many players as you'll need to accomplish things, therefore diminishing your success in the game.

a goodberry alternative is by no means going to make the evil life easier. we can, after all, bless our flagons yes?
gnerble
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Postby gnerble » Thu Jun 27, 2002 6:42 pm

I'm sure I'm sounding like an old fart.. walked 10 miles to school in the snow, uphill both ways...

But there was a time when there were just ogres and trolls.. Just warriors and shammers. Sometimes we could zone if some outcast people came on, but most of the time we just did Ghore and the Fell Turtle.

Then came duergar. Couldn't see in daylight but we had ressers and mental tanks (back in the day). That's when we could really zone as evils.

Once we got snakes -> omg cake. People STILL complain about snakes, but jeeze, trade a few slots of eq for day-vision and your good to go.

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Ragorn
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Postby Ragorn » Thu Jun 27, 2002 7:03 pm

The evil side is still harder than the goodie side, code wise. Not a single troll newbie would EVER make it to DK without help, period. The fact that there are people like Turxx, Cherzra, Tod, and others that dedicate their time to helping evil newbies is what makes being a low level evil easier.

Leave the disclaimer. Not everybody who plays has that help available at all times.

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- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
Auril
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Postby Auril » Thu Jun 27, 2002 7:56 pm

There's always talk of how the goodies are whiners, are idiots, etc. By having it so much harder for the evils, there should be fewer of those who just can't figure out the game. So in a sense, being an evilrace should enrich for a 'better' playerbase, because those who can't do it will probably move back to the goodrace characters.

Sounds like a good trade-off.
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Postby Yasden » Thu Jun 27, 2002 9:44 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Grungar:
<B>If evil is really supposed to be harder, evils should be able to headbutt themselves.

Hey, I never tried that. What does it say when you type 'headbutt self'?

- Grungar "I can count to three" Forgefire</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually it says:

Very funny. But not as funny as your face. :P

*cackle*

Try typing "dragonpunch" sometime. Image

Deathmagnet
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Postby Grungar » Thu Jun 27, 2002 9:51 pm

Ok I knew I already asked what headbutt self says waaaaaaay in the back of my mind. It's in a thread from December.

I've always enjoyed playing both a goodie and an evil, just to see what's going on where- the kind of people, the various attitudes, the new fun ways to die (Cildabrin! Cildabrin! Mmm, Brainstem Tunnel), you know, that kinda thing. The aggro duergar king still pisses me off every now and then. I remember seeing one of the oldie doogar clerics's (Gromsharulaz maybe?) corpses and asking if he wanted help with it. He told me to get outta town and quick. I didn't listen, and the next thing I knew, I ended back up in the conjie guild at 1 hp and down 30% exp or so. Ahh, memories.

Yeah, leave the disclaimer. You're still going to get people like me who ignore it (me : advanced player :: stone age : space age), but you'll also get the truly dedicated folks who contribute a lot.

- Grungar "I'm a genius, what can I say?" Forgefire
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Postby rachaz » Fri Jun 28, 2002 1:37 am

I think evilberries were a joke post Image
Rokub
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Postby Rokub » Fri Jun 28, 2002 2:11 am

I was just using evilberries as a example.
I just wanted to remind people that evil is harder, and shouldn't always have to be balanced to good.


rokub

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Malacar says 'And Isma wonders why he is universally hated.'
Baikalisan
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Postby Baikalisan » Fri Jun 28, 2002 3:05 am

as much as it pains me i agree with Rokub.

Evils should be harder to play then goodies. I also remember what it was like to have to sit in the game and hope for an outcast player to show his/her face.

But to be honest, it wouldn't work in todays mudding environment.. If you dont have the ppl to get out and do the zones, big or small, then your going to completly lose whats left of your player base on the evil side. Its already slim pickins hehe



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Baikalisan - Valsharess Elg'Caress - Orbdrin D'oloth
Laxlez
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Postby Laxlez » Fri Jun 28, 2002 4:41 am

Whyyyy back in my day.. We had to drag our corpses from wherever we died back to Ghore.. Through the rain and snow.. Then we had to drag them up to the Ancient Ruins.. Through the rain and snow.. And then the one outcast cleric would resurrect our corpses. If we were lucky! And zoning.. Forget about that! Hah! Back in my day, zoning was doing the bark shield mob! And we loved our bark shields by god. Nowadays, you have them fancy shields. Why back in my day, we took what we had.. And we made the best of it! Not like you whippersnappers today with your faaancy drow and your faaancy gythkas.

---

And the funny part is.. that's all true.. heheh..

But anyways, I still think evilberries would be yummy!

And yeah, I'm just rambling with no point.. I'm just proud of starting my very first character as an evil.. And sticking with it whether I've played 2 years on an incarnation.. (Soj/Toril).. 2 weeks (Soj2).. or about to reach 1 year (Soj3)..

-Laxlez
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Postby Elseenas » Fri Jun 28, 2002 5:34 am

Actually if for no other race you need it for snakes.

It would turn a newbie off to the Mud *really* fast if they came on, rolled up something in Hyssk without realizing it, and stepped out of their guild door before they even had the commands down.



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Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
Karikhan
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Postby Karikhan » Fri Jun 28, 2002 9:34 am

It clearly states when rolling a new character that only the more experienced players should roll certain classes ...

Typically when new people roll one of these classes/races we will tell them to try an easier class/race till they learn the mud.

I didn't find it hard at all even from the very start as an evil ... the only difficulty is learning to adapt with ultravision ... even the Ghore escape is easy .. grab a torch and a boat (32P isnt THAT hard to earn) and walk out .. i did it first time every time at lvl 1 and only got vague directions the first time i tried

I think a little more challenge would be great .... more aggros in the home towns ... but as a few people have already said .. perhaps it doesnt have a place in todays Sojourn ....

shrug I'm gonna play here no matter what changes .. or doesn't ....so your all stuck with me Image

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Lurgo
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Postby Lurgo » Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:50 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Karikhan:
<B>even the Ghore escape is easy .. grab a torch and a boat (32P isnt THAT hard to earn) and walk out .. i did it first time every time at lvl 1 and only got vague directions the first time i tried
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Ghore escape isn't a problem at lvl 1. Nobody really cares if you die then. It's when you've burned time getting to an exp spot, then more hours getting a few levels, then dying at a time when nobody can help you, then dying repeatedly as you try to escape to CR (You never have luck running past when you need it). What new player wouldn't quit?

Also, I'm not sure if this was fixed, but the Ghore shop used to only sell one canoe per pop. So if you died repeatedly, you also had to wait repeatedly to attempt it again.

Most of the evil hometowns, with the exception of DK, tend to have something "difficult" associated with them. Ghore has the lizardmen and aggro gators. Faang is a maze for new players, especially when they die in the mountains, in the river, or to the aggro spiders in chasm and cannot find their way back to CR. GH is safe but it's a pain to get in a group since you need WB to get to DK. Hyssk doesn't need comment.

The disclaimer was really meant for a younger Sojourn when you didn't have 1. So many high levels to aid new players and 2. So many older players who already know their way around.

That said, I don't think many of the goodie HTs are much better. Griffon's Nest, MH, Beluir, and Ashrumite are in the middle of nowhere. EM is like solitary confinement until level 20 as well.

As it is, you can't really control how "hard" goodies or evils are. That's up to the players if they want to help each other out.
Valke
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Postby Valke » Fri Jun 28, 2002 3:53 pm

Harder! hehe, I used to argue with Sszantiel about which town was harder to get out of! Ghore or Hyssk! So I tried both! Ghore, wow If I didnt have help getting outa Ghore I woulda quit that character. I thought the same for Hyssk, But I just had to do it! Peeps on NHC were advising me to roll another character somewhere else cause I had no clue how to cast or use my character! Any ways after a long damn time and 11 deaths I luckily made it out of Hyssk, Was the place is learned it seems a bit easier, or once you have invis! Hyssk I feel is harder for a caster, way harder! Ghore, haha It took me trolls life at level 42! pain in the ass.

I agree with Rokub, and I think more evil towns should be beefed up too! put 3 sneaky tasloi in DK once! hehe
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Postby moritheil » Fri Jun 28, 2002 4:44 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rokub:
<B>I applaude the person trying to get goodberries implemented for the evil side, but its just not going to happen. Good is supposed to be easier. This is just a example of a imbalance and the fact, that I believe it should be a imbalance. To keep evil harder.

Thanks,

Rokub

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have never, ever, ever gotten goodberries to proc cure or anything on me. I've probably eaten 500+. Has this suddenly been fixed while I was away?

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Grungar
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Postby Grungar » Fri Jun 28, 2002 4:49 pm

Maybe you need to be good for them to proc cure light on you?

I'm pretty sure I recall getting healed by one or two that I've picked up off the ground.

Yes, I scavenge for food.

- Grungar "Gum under the table? Bonus!" Forgefire
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Postby Zagaz » Fri Jun 28, 2002 5:41 pm

I rolled up a troll last night, Soxur is his name. I had the best help I could get, Zazyg lives close to me so he came over and was there helping me get out of Ghore, and make it all the way to DK. I cannot recall how many times people like him have helped me out, and I would like to thank everyone. It is not just an evil trait, I rolled up an elf and had some assistance from some of the higher level players there too. It is that type of helpful spirit that makes this MUD so wonderful.

I am low level but I have helped a few people lower than me get levels, and I have shared what little minuscule knowledge I have of the MUD.

I enjoy playing an evil, mostly because the friends I know play as well so I already have that comraderie, and they make it much easier. Please, everyone, staff and players, keep up the good work!



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Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Jun 28, 2002 5:46 pm

To get goodberries to work!!!!!

You have to 'eat goodberry' not 'eat berry.'

Goodberry has to be the keyword used or they won't work.
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Postby cherzra » Tue Jul 02, 2002 6:20 pm

THIS is why evils are harder, and why every piece of eq evils get is worth more.


< 533h/913H 133v/142V > who evil s
Listing of the Staff
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
<None>

There are 0 visible staff member(s) on.

Listing of the Mortals!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
[50 Psi] Icenacir (Illithid) (AFK)
[50 Cle] Baikalisan (Duergar)
[50 War] Cherzra bog death Crimson Coalition (Troll)
[48 Ctr] Cajur Shadow Soldier, Seething Darkness (Orc)
[46 Sha] Babo (Orc)
[45 War] Wuk Death Sword Evil Alliance (Troll)
[37 Ctr] Tsaej (Orc) (RP)
[26 Sha] Ounga (inv) (Ogre)
[26 Enc] Xorvaz - The Sigil (Drow Elf) (RP)
[20 Sha] Fanga (Ogre) (RP)
[18 War] Kukaw (Troll) (RP)
[16 Rog] Tizamee (Drow Elf)
[ 3 Ctr] Yorak (Orc)
There are 13 mortal(s) on.

Total visible players: 13.
Record number of players on this boot: 83.

< 538h/913H 134v/142V > who good s
Listing of the Staff
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
[ Co-Ord Admin ] Erevan Ilesere, God of Mischief and Change

There are 1 visible staff member(s) on.

Listing of the Mortals!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
[50 Ill] Penshah - Shadows of Imphras (Gnome)
[50 Ele] Nenolople (Gnome)
[50 Enc] Baratos Timmult (Human)
[50 Enc] Kribble - Prism - Northern Star (Gnome)
[50 Ran] Sylvos Winteraven (Half-Elf) (RP)
[50 War] Krabat (Dwarf)
[50 Ran] Weylarii - Darkstorm Legacy (Grey Elf) (RP)
[50 Enc] Malacar Kyrandal -=Val'istar=- Darkstorm Legacy (Grey Elf) (RP)
[50 Inv] Teppen -=Desolator=- Darkstorm Legacy (Gnome) (RP)
[50 Inv] Oteb }-Scorcher-{ Shades of Twilight (Human)
[50 Inv] Renarya - Sweet Annihilation - Northern Star (Grey Elf)
[50 Sha] Dartan Wildstallion -=Oracle=- Darkstorm Legacy (Barbarian)
[50 Dru] Lilithelle - Shadows of Imphras (Grey Elf)
[50 Cle] Rylan -Defender of Ages- Shadows of Imphras (Human) (RP)
[50 Ran] Kasula (Half-Elf)
[50 Rog] Eza - Silhouette - Rising Phoenix (Human) (RP)
[50 Cle] Mikar Darkraven, Unhallowed of Vermilion Shadow (Human) (RP)
[49 Cle] Marsak of Rising Phoenix (Dwarf)
[49 Cle] Grogu of Rising Phoenix (Dwarf)
[49 Sha] Nekler Blazingwolf }-Lone Wolf-{ Shades of Twilight (Barbarian)
[49 War] Hildibble Member of Shadows of Imphras (Gnome)
[48 War] Wuva Eagleblade of Rising Phoenix (Barbarian)
[48 Sha] Maelgwyn -Dreamsnake- Shadows of Imphras (Barbarian)
[48 Dru] Zouve Telcontar of Rising Phoenix (Half-Elf)
[48 War] Nelor (Barbarian) (RP)
[48 Cle] Deltin (Grey Elf)
[47 Ele] Runecopple -=Wanderer=- Darkstorm Legacy (Gnome)
[47 Ill] Corth -=Elusive=- Darkstorm Legacy (Human)
[47 Enc] Selias - Misguided - Northern Star (Grey Elf)
[46 Sha] Depok - Shadows of Imphras (Barbarian) (RP)
[46 Rog] Zenriel Blackoak (Grey Elf) (RP)
[46 Inv] Jani - Tempestuous Flame - Northern Star (Human)
[44 War] Daz (Barbarian) (RP)
[44 Enc] Aluras }-Acolyte-{ Shades of Twilight (Grey Elf)
[43 A-P] Itex (Human)
[43 Bar] Aldira (Grey Elf) (RP)
[43 Rog] Fubble (Halfling)
[42 Pal] Iaiken Toransier (Human) (RP)
[41 Rog] Vekle Member of Rising Phoenix (Halfling) (RP)
[41 Inv] Alomlim (Grey Elf)
[41 Dru] Rilih -=Gardener=- Darkstorm Legacy (Half-Elf)
[40 War] Garal Coldanvil (Dwarf)
[39 War] Horig (Barbarian)
[38 Rog] Illreok ShadowAssassin of Vermilion Shadow (Human) (RP)
[38 A-P] Vrazza (Human)
[37 Enc] Risaros (Grey Elf)
[37 Ran] Kaenmireth (Grey Elf)
[37 Sha] Buval (inv) (Barbarian)
[28 Dru] Kolyas Willowgrove (Half-Elf)
[23 Ran] Rovek (Half-Elf)
[20 Rog] Valas (Human)
[20 Dru] Anefreal (Grey Elf)
[18 A-P] Shaydok (Human) (RP)
[15 Bar] Sunpel (Halfling) (AFK)
[ 4 Dru] Shalieia (Grey Elf) (RP)
[ 1 Ran] Falerian (Half-Elf) (AFK)
[ 1 Dru] Aneses (Half-Elf)
There are 57 mortal(s) on.

Total visible players: 58.
Record number of players on this boot: 83.


When you goods group up for a zone every time after a reboot, type 'who evil s' and see how tough they have it. And I won't even mention the life of Europenan evils.

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