Think Different

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Daz
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Think Different

Postby Daz » Thu Jun 27, 2002 3:30 am

Think Different

Here's to the crazy ones,
the misfits,
the rebels,
the troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently.

They're not fond of rules
and they have no respect for the status quo.

You can quote them,
disagree with them,
glorify or vilify them.
About the only thing you can't do
is ignore them,
because they change things.
They push the human race forward.

And while some may see them as the crazy ones,
we see genius.

Because the people who are crazy enough to
think they can change the world
are the ones who do.

Think Different.


-From Apple's Think Different Campaign.
(I think Nike may have been usurped for most drama in a commercial)

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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
Elseenas
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Postby Elseenas » Thu Jun 27, 2002 4:27 am

This is probably one of the more powerful commercials I have ever seen.

"1984" was rated by TV-Guide as the best commercial of all time.

Incidentally the commercials on this site: http://www.apple.com/switch/

Are also rather interesting.

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Daz
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Postby Daz » Thu Jun 27, 2002 6:48 am

i hope apple sticks to the 'think different' marketing strategy, as opposed to an outright affront on microsoft. its rather stupid, since microsoft is so dominant, and in many ways, apple relies on microsoft to sustain its marginal hold on the pc world. in reality, however, apple's closed minded set about hardware will ultimately keep it from ever being a major marketshare holder. i can build a kick ass pc for under 500 bucks. do you know 6 or more people who have gone out and built a mac ground up? economically, apples are great for multimedia and housewives. to most people however, it offers little that can compete with a custom built pc.

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Elseenas
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Postby Elseenas » Thu Jun 27, 2002 7:28 am

It actually offers several things over a home built PC:

1) A kick-ass OS. MS nor Linux can hold a candle to MacOS X.

2) Better (i.e., lower) failure rates.

3) A DVD-R/CD-RW

4) Higher quality components (see 2).

5) Tech support.

6) Mass-production (convince a company that this isn't an advantage). I will never be able to sell 2000 home-built PCs to school system, but I can get them to purchase 2000 iBooks.

7) It just works.

8) Good luck with creating a laptop.

9) LOWER total cost of ownership (see Gartner's research).

10) Ever try to build a rackmount from the ground up?

Actually the time has come for an attack on MS's marketshare. They don't have to recruit many to effectively double their marketshare and MS won't stop producing Office (this would be a gregariously *stupid* decision on their part)

I would hardly call Apple's 5% marketshare "marginal". NAME a car company with that has 5% marketshare. Further, talk to the graphics people, talk to the media personas, and talk to the consultants.


"apples are great for multimedia and housewives. to most people however, it offers little that can compete with a custom built pc."

Pure BS Image

I'd say that a custom built PC offers little that can compete with a Macintosh.

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Postby Daz » Thu Jun 27, 2002 7:51 am

5% is marginal next to microsoft's 94% penetration

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Postby Daz » Thu Jun 27, 2002 7:55 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Elseenas:
<B>It actually offers several things over a home built PC:

1) A kick-ass OS. MS nor Linux can hold a candle to MacOS X.

2) Better (i.e., lower) failure rates.

3) A DVD-R/CD-RW

4) Higher quality components (see 2).

5) Tech support.

6) Mass-production (convince a company that this isn't an advantage). I will never be able to sell 2000 home-built PCs to school system, but I can get them to purchase 2000 iBooks.

7) It just works.

8) Good luck with creating a laptop.

9) LOWER total cost of ownership (see Gartner's research).

10) Ever try to build a rackmount from the ground up?

Actually the time has come for an attack on MS's marketshare. They don't have to recruit many to effectively double their marketshare and MS won't stop producing Office (this would be a gregariously *stupid* decision on their part)

I would hardly call Apple's 5% marketshare "marginal". NAME a car company with that has 5% marketshare. Further, talk to the graphics people, talk to the media personas, and talk to the consultants.


"apples are great for multimedia and housewives. to most people however, it offers little that can compete with a custom built pc."

Pure BS Image

I'd say that a custom built PC offers little that can compete with a Macintosh.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1 - i love XP
2 - i beat the hell out of my OS, and i can count the number of times it has crashed in the last 8 months on one hand.
3 my pc has a dvd/cd rw, too.
4 - sony components. mine work fine.
5 - i dont need tech support. the microsoft knowledgebase fixes anything i cant.
6 - you would never try.
7 - mine does, too
8 - whats wrong with the vaio?
9 - research means squat. i have no 'studies' needed to show me how cost effective my pc is
10 - your point?

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Postby Ragorn » Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:53 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B> 1 - i love XP
2 - i beat the hell out of my OS, and i can count the number of times it has crashed in the last 8 months on one hand.
3 my pc has a dvd/cd rw, too.
4 - sony components. mine work fine.
5 - i dont need tech support. the microsoft knowledgebase fixes anything i cant.
6 - you would never try.
7 - mine does, too
8 - whats wrong with the vaio?
9 - research means squat. i have no 'studies' needed to show me how cost effective my pc is
10 - your point?

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

XP is the most inefficient Mickey Mouse excuse for an OS I've ever had the misfortune to work with. It's unstable, it's cartoony, and it's so frustratingly user-friendly that I can't make it DO what I want it to because of 7 layers of failsafes and idiot shielding. Every OS that Microsoft puts out gets more annoying. Sadly, the apple commercial is right... XP is CONSTANTLY in my face instead of doing its job. We can't even FORMAT our XP box because THE OPERATING SYSTEM WON'T LET US FORMAT THE C: DRIVE.

I have to reboot my fiance's XP machine daily, since any graphic-intensive program like Diablo 2 or NWN causes such a huge memory leak that the system grinds to a halt in 4 hours. Win 98 is, in my opinion, a hands-down superior OS to XP in every single benchmarking catagory.

As for Mac vs. PC, it comes down to one very simple choice: Do you want efficiency, or software? Sorry Mac people, the computer industry simply puts out a much larger volume of software for Windows than OSX. There isn't a single piece of software that I use that isn't cheaper, more readily available, or released first for PC than Mac. I am not a graphics designer. I am not a multimedia recorder. Everything I use is designed for Windows. Some of it gets translated to Mac, sometimes as an afterthought.

How does Apple stay in business? They turn their Mac into a PC emulator. Apple's ad campaign proudly touts OSX's ability to run Windows programs. Macs are like Betamax... sure the technology might be superior in a lot of ways, but nobody cares Image Go into your local software store, whether it's a small chain, a medium sized retailer like Electronics Boutique, or a superstore like CompUSA. Take a look at what's available for Windows, then peruse the Mac software section. Macs today survive because they emulate PCs, not because of any hardware advantage or exclusive software.

Apple's 5% market share is miniscule. There are two major competetors for the operating system market. How many car companies are there?

Finally:

Does Dell need to paint their computers orange to make people aware of them? Image

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Postby Elseenas » Thu Jun 27, 2002 11:51 am

>1 - i love XP

My view is similar to Ragorn's on this issue.

2 - I was discussing hardware.

>3 - my pc has a dvd/cd rw, too.
Is it DVD-R/CD-RW though?

As in, can it WRITE DVDs?

>4 - sony components. mine work fine.

Image

Motherboard, Hard Drive, RAM, VRAM, the physical ports, case design, &c.

All interface in a variety of different ways which, if you aren't careful, will *bite* you.

>5 - i dont need tech support. the microsoft
>knowledgebase fixes anything i cant.

::amused smile:: I'll just let this one lie.

>6 - you would never try.

Actually I used to consult for high schools and for various departments at Tulane University.

Yes, I would.

There is also the Virginia school district, which just purchased several thousand iBooks and is my reference.

>7 - mine does, too

In my experience, if it is from MS its security is crap, its configuration sucks, and programming for it is a royal pain.

Meanwhile, in the Unix world...

>8 - whats wrong with the vaio?

You are discussing "build your own," not "purchase from a company prebuilt"

>9 - research means squat.

I'll also let this statement stand.

Considering that there would be no advances in any scientific or economic field without research, it isn't worth arguing how this is wrong and twice as much so for businesses.

>10 - your point?

You keep advocating your own $500 prebuilt systems.

>5% is marginal next to microsoft's 94%
>penetration

I don't know, they seem to thrive in that 5% and they are the fastest growing single manufacturer of computers out there.

Also, I wouldn't say that crays make up a significant portion of the computing market, but they are and will always have their applications for which people will purchase them.



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Postby Elseenas » Thu Jun 27, 2002 12:09 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
How does Apple stay in business? They turn their Mac into a PC emulator. Apple's ad campaign proudly touts OSX's ability to run Windows programs.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, this isn't quite correct.

They proudly tout OS X's ability to open windows files and run MS Office. This is a far cry removed from being a "PC Emulator"

They stay in business by providing Insanely Great® machines with the worlds best OS. Recently they have hooked most of the professional software companies and the number that release to mac are increasing by leaps and bounds.

Not even mentioning the abundance of freeware for the Unix community which *isn't* on Windows. When MacOS X first came out it didn't ship with any secure shell software.

So some people took the OpenBSD version of OpenSSH, compiled it using the tools that came with the OS, and installed it.

Now it ships standard.

I've installed BDB 4.0.14, teTeX, XWindows (via the X on X project), Snort, working on OpenLDAP right now, and a wide array of other Unix programs.

"Macs today survive because they emulate PCs, not because of any hardware advantage or exclusive software."

If this was true do you really think they would still be in business?

People use it because of the operating system. Because of the hardware dependability and because of the "killer apps": the iApps, the iPod, the FireWire peripherals, and myriad of other things.

Not because of cloning issues where it doesn't even run native PC software.

"There isn't a single piece of software that I use that isn't cheaper, more readily available, or released first for PC than Mac. "

The reverse is true of me.

I can't find a Windows version of g++ and I have been less than thrilled with MS's nonexistant Java support.

Frankly, the office version for Mac is better than the windows version presently as well ;-p


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Postby cherzra » Thu Jun 27, 2002 1:13 pm

Sun > all.

Unix is the best proven and tested OS around, bar none. I work as an engineer in telecommunications (Ericsson), and we run huge IN SMAS services and seriously critical applications on Solaris OS and Sun hardware. If these ever failed or randomly gave blue screens, the entire telephony network and a large part of IP traffic would go down.

Windows and MacOS are just fancy dancy OSes for consumers, and perhaps for office environments. The moment when things become critical, in industry and R&D, Unix > all.

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Postby Galkar » Thu Jun 27, 2002 1:59 pm

My family bought my grandfather an Imac because it was cheaper than a PC. I had such a hard time installing programs and games on that Imac, it wasn't funny. Most of the programs were supposed to be self install, however, none of them worked that way. I had to go into the CD, copy and paste kinds of shit into different folders..... give me a break. Every program I've ever bought for my PC has installed immediately, with NO problems, except for when I'm lacking the hardware capabilities. And that's my fault, not the computers. We got rid of that Imac, bought him a Gateway PC, and there's nothing he's wanted to do that he's not been able to do with it.

I have to agree with Daz. I run Win98SE on a 700 AMD processor with a 20 gig hd. Built it myself. Runs great! Crashes maybe once or twice a month.

And the best OS i've ever used was IBM OS2/Warp. I could outping a guy with a Gateway comp, 200 mhz intel processor running Win95, with my 75 mhz Cyrix (either that or an AMD, that was 6 years ago and can't really remember). Froze him right up. LOL.

Can't say much for any other OS's than Win 95 and 98, and OS2/Warp.

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Postby Croban/Owom » Thu Jun 27, 2002 2:54 pm

Owom enters the fray.

I will say this, I was frustrated with XP "out of the box." It was way too "safe" for me, too. The immediate help and online information was limited as to how to change the features.

That being said, after a hard hour of searching, I did find how to turn off the autoshading, the cutsey windows, the autotakeover of the machine (which zonealarm imho helps greatly in stopping, too), and generally making it incredibly nice. If you are not a power user or well versed in what XP can do for you (archiving by date points) it may seem difficult.

Agela (a RL friend of mine) has a couple G4s she does her work from. I think they are decent, and have a lot of potential. She still crashes them. She crashes PCs. She just blows computers up by simple mistakes made without understanding the implications. (Note that I am flaming a friend Image)

What does this tell us? That user error and the knowledge of the person putting the machine together will decide how well it works.

BTW, I have actually fully crashed XP once (the NT full screen data dump and register values) on my work laptop... was very nice to see. Otherwise, one hand is more than I expect to need with XP.

Also, using games as a judgement for memory leaks is not a good one. I would say use MS programs and have a true test of invalid memory locations building up.

Anyway, sorry Agela Image you know you're still cool.

Also, I love the Apple commercials. Though, like humans do, is an interesting song MS provides.

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Postby Kuurg » Thu Jun 27, 2002 3:31 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
<B>Sun > all.


Unix is the best proven and tested OS around, bar none.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

uh, that's really what Mac OS X is. Aqua is Apple's GUI which runs on top of a modified FreeBSD kernel.

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Postby Zrax » Thu Jun 27, 2002 3:40 pm

Love Xp, never had a problem with it. OS 10 seems fine as well but in my opinion buying a mac is like those people who bought Beta instead of VHS. I have a few friends who love mac but constantly complain because games take forever to release for it if ever.

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Postby Nekler BlazingWolf » Thu Jun 27, 2002 3:53 pm

I gotta reply about the heavy graphics games under windows xp and the crashes..
if its a memory leak, its due to the game or the video card drivers. Not the os. I run windows xp with a geforce3 card, play games like medal of honor, mechwarrior4, and so on. I leave my computer on all the time. Never have I had a problem with it due to the os (problems I have had I have caused).
I always build my own machines after buying my first computer from IBM.. what a friggin peice of crap I might add.
I realize this this had nothing to due with Daz's post, but if you're gonna blame the os for something, at least be sure its the os and not another peice of software.
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Postby Daz » Thu Jun 27, 2002 4:13 pm

DVD writers are not expensive elseenas

i can build a machine for under 700 dollars that has a dvd writer

regardless of what you say, windows is the dominant system on the market. macs are not user friendly, and have grumpy, aggressive users. unix/linux may end up dominating server machines, but will continue to fail miserably at grabbing the attention of home users. also - how many of you have seen previews of the next version of windows that will not be called windows any longer? lol - its so awesome, but i wonder how long it will be until mac/linux start bragging about how they can be like windows.



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Postby Kuurg » Thu Jun 27, 2002 4:44 pm

<flame> Daz makes dumb posts </flame>

This is one of the funniest threads I've seen in awhile.

We have windows users saying they prefer XP because the mac was too difficult to figure out.

Let's take a step back 10 years, where all your geeks wanted PC's instead of a Mac because the Mac treated you like a silly little girl who couldn't be bothered with tinkering with her machine.

With the release of OS X, Apple was able to lure me back into the fold. Prior to this I was running the suse and mandrake linux distros on their own partitions and XP running with the LiteStep shell instead of Explorer. Anyone who fails to appreciate the beauty of the marriage of apple's GUI and Unix under-pinnings just doesn't know what kind of stability and security this implies.

As for being able to install 3rd party devices in your Mac - that's what the Power Mac product line is for. install whatever you want.

I had to use Macs back in the early 90's and hated it. I've used PC's most of my life and run hot/cold on them (I build my own.) I use Mac's now and it's my platform of choice.

And woohoo, Warcraft III is shipping in a few days and will play on both Windows and Macintosh from the same disc(s).

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Postby Gort » Thu Jun 27, 2002 7:11 pm

IMHO

Computer problems come in three flavors

1) PEBKAC and ID 10 T errors

2) Design errors in hardware/software (MS calls them features)

3) People who are bright/curious/destructive enough to create unforseen issues w/ Hardware/software or their interfaces.

All systems have these, especially #1.

For those of you who haven't done tech support, and don't know what PEBKAC is, Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair, and ID10T is one I've rem'd in someone's config.sys before as the cause of their errors.


Thank you, please drive through...

BTW, from what I've heard, XP's license expires... so you'll get the pleaseure of paying MS again for it.


Toplack

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Postby Ragorn » Thu Jun 27, 2002 7:13 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Nekler BlazingWolf:
I gotta reply about the heavy graphics games under windows xp and the crashes..</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can think of nothing else. We simultaneously play Diablo 2 on our computers.. mine is a Dell P4 1.0 with an old Voodoo3 PCI, hers is a Gateway P4 1.7 with a GeForce2 AGP. And invariably, she loses system performance after about an hour. The frame rate slowly drops, the mouse cursor gets jumpy, the character skips around the screen. I have more memory than her, but she doubles the game's requirements. Her processor is 70% faster than mine with better hardware video. The folks at Gateway proclaimed that it was not a brand difference, that it must be the OS if we're both playing identical versions of the game.

Nothing is running in the background on her computer.. I can run winamp, AIM, ICQ, and Norton and still get no slowdown. If you can tell me what's causing the problem other than the OS, please do Image

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Postby Zrax » Thu Jun 27, 2002 7:19 pm

GeForce Video drivers suck, I get the same slowdown on games on 2 of my machines, one running XP, one running 98. I have another machine running XP with a VooDoo 3 3000, and i dont have the problem at all.

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Postby Ragorn » Thu Jun 27, 2002 7:46 pm

Truly, Apple has stayed alive through the past 15 years by having a niche machine. I will readily concede that Macs are FAR superior when it comes to multimedia and graphic design. However, that niche is very small compared to the overall computer-using popularion, so I assert that Apple has stayed in business because their machine can emulate a Windows box. Calling it emulation or not is simply semantics.

In recent releases, the OS has surpassed Windows as well, especially with OSX's unix-based code. That much, I will also concede. I hate the last two Windows releases (XP, ME). I think Win 98 had the increased stability and compatibility that 95 sorely needed, without all the idiot-proofing and user friendly nonsense of ME and XP. Does Win98 match up to OSX? Probably not. Does Win98 work well enough to use on a day to day basis without issues? Certainly. Is there anything that I do that OSX would do better than Win98? I have serious doubts.

There isn't a gamer on the planet who can argue that Macs outperform Windows boxes. They just don't, when it comes to gaming. The support just isn't there. Warcraft III is a big deal because it's the first major strategy game being released simultaneously. Now I understand that "serious" computer users probably don't even consider gaming when comparing platforms, and that's fine. However, it's a priority for me, and gaming is a very large segment of today's computer market. And this is an area where developers are only just starting to trust the Mac as a viable sales venue. The Mac game section at the CompUSA I worked at was two shelf segments long. We had 5 entire aisles for Windows games.

My viewpoint condenses into two main issues:

- Mac technology is better. However, Windows technology works well enough for the general public that the difference isn't a noticable one for most people.

- Windows has market inertia. More products are developed for Windows because more products are available for Windows. Consumers go where the software is.


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Postby Mishre » Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:52 pm

well.. my 2 cents for everyone to gloss over and ignore Image (ill try to keep it short and sweet, lets see how i do)

1) I have never had WindowsXP Crash.. not once, i haven't even rebooted in about 2 months.. still runs great..

2) what computers did you PC haters run? HPs, Packard Bells? :P i run a 500mhz amd athlon with a Riva TNT2 256MB ram which i built myself.. it does everything i want it to and have no problem running diablo 2 and other games for hours and not rebooting, ever..
(Celeron Processors suck bad)

3) my broinlaw is in graphic design, he prefers PC software to Mac..(and he has used both, in college he said it was about 50/50, the software he used on each machine)

4) Why use a mac when Windows usually gets new games first? (If aren't a game player then i can understand.. doesn't really matter)

5) I never bought win95/98/ME, XP was the first one i bought because i decided that MS finnaly made an OS worth $100..

6) Overall i have 0 problems with PCs now that XP is out.. id have to say that Better hardware on a MAC sounds like an ignorant deduction.. don't buy an HP.. don't buy the cheapest crap you can find(unless you know its from a good reliable company that knows what its doing).. components don't always work together in a PC because of all the different manufacturers... you just need to know what you are getting into first.. and if you don't know.. you can go with Gateway.. had a friend that bought one from there even though he knew how to build one, and it worked great...

overall: Reliability is now not an issue between the 2.. so why really do you use a mac? I saw those reasons and they sound like the 10 reasons on the apple.com/switch webpage, they just aren't true anymore..

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Postby Mishre » Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:59 pm

you know ragorn.. what sort of idiot proofing are you talking about with XP? esp. XP Professional edition, everything is customizable, you can change the OS to lookk and feel like you want (including thigns that change things back to how they were in previous releases, such as start menu, etc)

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Postby Kuurg » Thu Jun 27, 2002 9:05 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>so I assert that Apple has stayed in business because their machine can emulate a Windows box. Calling it emulation or not is simply semantics.


Is there anything that I do that OSX would do better than Win98? I have serious doubts.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But the Apple software doesn't DO emulation. Microsoft has a development team (A very talented, dedicated development team) that re-wrote the Office Suite for the Macintosh platform.

There's lots and lots that OSX would do easier and better. Web Server leaps to mind. Apache runs sweet on OS X. Try setting up something akin to a cron job on an XP system without 3rd party software - it just ain't gonna happen.


-- added: I just realized you said 'anything that I do that OS X can do better...' - and this is probably what it comes down to. If a person doesn't mind the constraints put on them by using Windows 98/ME/XP/Crap then there's no reason for them to want another operating system.
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[This message has been edited by Kuurg (edited 06-27-2002).]
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Postby Mishre » Thu Jun 27, 2002 10:48 pm

if you want to run a sever run Linux/Unix or something on your PC.. can you please tell us what constraints windowsXP puts on a user? seems to me you can do nearly anything you want to.. you might need 3rd party programs or to write your own, but that doesn't mean there is a constraint... it just doesn't Come with an option..

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Postby Elseenas » Thu Jun 27, 2002 11:01 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
1) I have never had WindowsXP Crash.. not once, i haven't even rebooted in about 2 months.. still runs great..</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From what I have been hearing, this is not the average experience.

With MacOS X, it has been.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">2) what computers did you PC haters run? HPs, Packard Bells? :P i run a 500mhz amd athlon with a Riva TNT2 256MB ram which i built myself.. it does everything i want it to and have no problem running diablo 2 and other games for hours and not rebooting, ever..</font>


Dells, Gateways back when they were good, a handful of other systems from a variety of smaller companies, and if you count Linux boxes I used to run a dual-processor rackmount from Penguin Computing (truth be told if MacOS X hadn't come out my next computer would be from Penguing Computing).


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">3) my broinlaw is in graphic design, he prefers PC software to Mac..(and he has used both, in college he said it was about 50/50, the software he used on each machine)</font>


I will mention that FCP doesn't *exist* for PCs.

Beyond that, his view is *not* the average in that industry.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">4) Why use a mac when Windows usually gets new games first? (If aren't a game player then i can understand.. doesn't really matter)</font>


These are the games on my system.

1) Escape Velocity Nova (Mac Only atm, Ambrosia SW).

2) Bubble Trouble X (Mac Only, Ambrosia SW).

3) Zork I, II, III (runs from a command line).

4) Chess (came with the computer).

5) tuxRacer (because everyone who has a Unix variant needs this game).

6) StarCraft.

7) Goban (a Go game that hooks into IGS servers, this particular varient is Mac Only but there are other equivilent programs for Windows and Linux).

8) SNES9X (nostalgia's sake, have Legend of Zelda 3 and FFIII).

9) Glypha III (joust, this variant is Mac Only).

Thats *it*. You'll notice the trend in those? As a rule, outside of these, I don't really play video games. Even within them, the only ones that I play regularly are Goban, Bubble Trouble, and EV Nova.

On the other hand, I *require* the following:

1) A good set of compilers (C/C++, Java, &c).
2) Good Project Management Software.
3) XWindows Forwarding.

Now, I realize that all of these things are available on Windows. The trick is that all of them are good quality and free on my MacOS X box (the last took a quick install, but thats it).

Not only that, but I can trust the security of this platform. Its fairly solid and I can trust that it won't fall out from under me at a moments notice.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">5) I never bought win95/98/ME, XP was the first one i bought because i decided that MS finnaly made an OS worth $100..</font>


Too bad they charge $200 for the home eddition and $300 for the professional.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">6) Overall i have 0 problems with PCs now that XP is out.. id have to say that Better hardware on a MAC sounds like an ignorant deduction..</font>


Actually *use* a Macintosh before making this comment.



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Postby Kuurg » Fri Jun 28, 2002 12:01 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mishre:
<B>if you want to run a sever run Linux/Unix or something on your PC.. can you please tell us what constraints windowsXP puts on a user? seems to me you can do nearly anything you want to.. you might need 3rd party programs or to write your own, but that doesn't mean there is a constraint... it just doesn't Come with an option..

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


But that's just it, why install server software on my PC when I can run a web server with the software that ships on my Macintosh?
I probably should've phrased that differently. XP Definitely does put constraints on the end user, but what I meant was that an end user has more control over their environment with the Macintosh running OS X. Hell, I can recompile my kernel with only the services I want running.
A person doesn't have that level of control with a Windows box. I want the developers tools for the OS X platform? great! I'll download them from apple's web page.

So far the only point that couldn't really be refuted was zrax's - about game development happening on the PC first and then on the macintosh. The high end PMG4's can come with a GeForce4 Ti 4600 card in them - now tell me that these systems wouldn't run some kick ass games.

And Elseenas is right, you're not going to find Escape Velocity Nova running on a PC.
I spent too many weeks in front of the computer when the first Escape Velocity was released to get sucked into this one.

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Postby Elseenas » Fri Jun 28, 2002 12:25 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
seems to me you can do nearly anything you want to.. you might need 3rd party programs or to write your own, but that doesn't mean there is a constraint... it just doesn't Come with an option..
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are so not a programmer if you think you can *write* anything that you need for a web server. Especially for Windows.

*Most* CGI takes less than one person and very little work to write, but that certainly isn't universally true and some things (let the web server proper) would take you an inordinate amount of time (and, consequently, money) to write even with a team of developers.

Incidentally, I will say that Apache rocks over anything I've found for other platforms.

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Postby nedle » Fri Jun 28, 2002 12:27 am

interestingly enough msft is an investor in apple, in fact many years back when apple was about to fall apart and steve jobs came back to take over it was msft that bailed them out and made an investment north of $100 million. (one of the best investments he ever made since it forced office and explorer onto all apple platforms) its never been an apple vs. msft battle, way back when they even considered (however shortly) dropping the os completely and using the msft platform....

one of the most unfortunte ironies in the technology field is that the best technology doesn't always win, in fact very rarely does the best technology ever win. this fight has never been about the better product in much the same way as a presidential campagin has never been about the most capable candidate.

im a big fan of the commercials - if you want to expand the user base of apples you need to go beyond designers, best market is the home user....

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Postby Elseenas » Fri Jun 28, 2002 12:43 am

nedle:

Problem:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
in fact many years back when apple was about to fall apart and steve jobs came back to take over it was msft that bailed them out and made an investment north of $100 million
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not a chance.

Apple is over a multibillion dollar company and all that MS did was purchase $150 million in nonvoting stock with an undisclosed amount traded under the table. I addition, MS agreed to support Apple with software for a minimum of three years. In exchange, Apple *dropped a lawsuit*.

The money was just a show and had nothing to do with the survival of the company. That MS was making a statement that Apple would *be there* in three years helped more than any number of shares of nonvoting stock or any under the table sum.

I will, however, agree to an extent with this " in fact very rarely does the best technology ever win. this fight has never been about the better product in much the same way as a presidential campagin has never been about the most capable candidate".

To a degree, this is true, however there is another factor which you didn't mention.

Unlike a presidential race, there doesn't have to be one winner and one looser at the end.




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Postby Daz » Fri Jun 28, 2002 1:50 am

elseenas, please stop posting your ignorantly biased propaganda. you don't know what the average user experiences, because you are too busy telling them that they suck for using XP. the fact is, i do tech support for a very large company, there are about 200 of us in my office, every person in this office is certified, educated, and damn good at what we do. Our resolution rate is north of 90%. Most of us use XP. Most of us have had zero problems, and no one has had more than 1 difficulty with OS. We host web sites, we run servers, we abuse our machines with every type of game known to man. We have dusty g4 macs and imacs laying around. They suck. lightwave is nice, but we dont make money with it.

Wherever you get your biased, untrue information (the apple web page, perhaps?) its wrong. Windows XP is far and away a wonderful OS, and - guess what? - apple still exists because microsoft supports them. Otherwise - Microsoft has no competition (sorry guys, open source isn't a competitor in the eyes of the capitalist economy i think)

several people have stated they use XP with no problems. several people who do NOT use xp, talk about their osx being so much better. its not. get on with your life.

also - while apple is competing with microsoft - microsoft is preparing to leap light years ahead?

anyone seen the new OS? the next release will NOT be called windows. And it looks hot.


PS - elseenas, your vigorous, slandering defense of apple just makes me think you work in a macstore and are in danger of losing your job.

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Postby Daz » Fri Jun 28, 2002 1:55 am

Oh yeah, I can change my kernel with XP too. I am glad you researched what microsoft is capable of. I love what my xp can do, and after 8 months of constant abuse - including 10 complete reformattings, (not needed, intentional) never a single crash that was xp related.

maybe YOU are trying to run xp on a computer than NEEDS windows 98, or even 3.1 . . . .

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Postby Ragorn » Fri Jun 28, 2002 2:04 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kuurg:
But the Apple software doesn't [b]DO emulation. Microsoft has a development team (A very talented, dedicated development team) that re-wrote the Office Suite for the Macintosh platform.

There's lots and lots that OSX would do easier and better. Web Server leaps to mind. Apache runs sweet on OS X. Try setting up something akin to a cron job on an XP system without 3rd party software - it just ain't gonna happen.


-- added: I just realized you said 'anything that I do that OS X can do better...' - and this is probably what it comes down to. If a person doesn't mind the constraints put on them by using Windows 98/ME/XP/Crap then there's no reason for them to want another operating system. [/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right. Telling me that g++ isn't available for Windows and saying that OSX runs a far superior web server is like telling me I should buy a Toyota instead of a Chevy because Toyotas can drive on Neptune.

Are Macs "better" than PCs? For my purposes, no they are not. For yours? Possibly, and that's why some people choose to use them.

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Postby Elseenas » Fri Jun 28, 2002 2:16 am

Don't flame Daz, there is no reason for it and it doesn't help your argument.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">please stop posting your ignorantly biased propaganda</font>


You're the one who seems to believe that research is worthless.

http://www4.gartner.com/Init

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Most of us use XP. Most of us have had zero problems, and no one has had more than 1 difficulty with OS.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

and if I were to hand you to a group of Mac programmers you would have a similar story even on MacOS 9.2.

The fact is that people who are well equipped to use an operating system tend to be better with it.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Wherever you get your biased, untrue information (the apple web page, perhaps?) its wrong.,</font>


Unix geeks, word of mouth at an engineering school, Gartner Research Group, working as an Information Systems Specialist, user reports, working as a sysadmin, Counterpane, and /.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Windows XP is far and away a wonderful OS, and - guess what? - apple still exists because microsoft supports them.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me guess, you also think that MS is "innovative"?

Geeze, and you accuse *me* of propaganda?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
who do NOT use xp, talk about their osx being so much better. its not. get on with your life.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually I have used XP. Most people I know use either 2000 or 98, however.

My impression is that Ragorn has as well.

Frankly, I have one word for you that is completely sums the reasons that I do not use MS products when I can possibly avoid it:

Security.

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,5264,00.asp

"If it is from Microsoft the security is crap, anything else is better by comparison" -- cDc

Or their "Kindegarten Cryptography" in PPTP (term coined by Bruce Scheiner, author of Secrets and Lies, Applied Cryptography, and one of the authors of the Twofish Algorithm).

That is why *I* use a Mac--with GPG, EGD, OpenSSL, Snort, and OpenSSH.

There are other reasons, of course (ease of use, the presence of those applications that I need, &c), but that is the primary one under it all.

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Postby Elseenas » Fri Jun 28, 2002 2:26 am

Incidentally, more propaganda for you.

http://www.business2.com/articles/mag/0,1640,39700,FF.html
http://www.counterpane.com/crypto-gram-0202.html
http://www.counterpane.com/crypto-gram-0201.html

Incidentally.
I wasn't aware that you could recompile XP's Kernel, where can I find the source code?

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Postby Elseenas » Fri Jun 28, 2002 2:28 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Right. Telling me that g++ isn't available for Windows and saying that OSX runs a far superior web server is like telling me I should buy a Toyota instead of a Chevy because Toyotas can drive on Neptune.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

::laughs:: Okay, you have me here.



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Postby Daz » Fri Jun 28, 2002 2:31 am

so? get a hardware firewall. i am so sure that your computer is a treasure trove of riches that thousands of hackers are desperately waiting to get their hands on. wow - britney spears nude! legions will be invading your computer! thank god for the defense of apple!

do you believe in the three headed bigfoot that exists in utah? i read about that one in the checkout lane, too.

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Postby nedle » Fri Jun 28, 2002 2:32 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">[/B]
Unlike a presidential race, there doesn't have to be one winner and one looser at the end.
[/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

nod...and thank god for that....do you remember by chance when they made the investment can't seem to find a date for it, i seem to remember apple being in a horrible cash position at the time, but i could be very wrong....

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Postby Daz » Fri Jun 28, 2002 2:39 am

those articles are written by mac users.

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Postby Elseenas » Fri Jun 28, 2002 2:42 am

Daz:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
i am so sure that your computer is a treasure trove of riches that thousands of hackers are desperately waiting to get their hands on. wow - britney spears nude! legions will be invading your computer! thank god for the defense of apple!
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have chosen to be insulting rather than present an argument. Typical.

You also don't understand security--you seem to think that it is a product that you buy (admittedly MS has the same viewpoint). Since an mpg file can evidently execute arbitrary code, firewalls will hardly protect you (nevermind that the vast majority of firewalls are bypassable).

Firewalls are a tool and security is a process, not a product.

You also don't understand threat levels or scope. I am not worried about them accessing my computers contents (not especially, anyways), I'm worried about them stealing my identity, using my computer as a launching point into someone else's systems (such as a government agency or bank), or deleting the files on my hard drive.

nedle:

Three years ago this summer, IIRC.

Yes, they were in a fairly dire position economically at the time and the MS settlement provided a nice shot in the arm (agreed here on all counts), but I wouldn't say that it saved the company.

Daz (again)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">

those articles are written by mac users.

</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ROTFLMAO.

Scheiner I would say is the definition of multisystem.

Further, you say "mac user" like its an epithet. Just because they prefer one platform doesn't disqualify them from speaking intelligently.

EDIT:
Required a bit of moving things around.

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[This message has been edited by Elseenas (edited 06-27-2002).]
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Postby Elseenas » Fri Jun 28, 2002 2:52 am

nedle:

Make that four or five years ago.

Following this Office 98 was developed and released, so that would imply that it was '98 or '97.

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Postby Daz » Fri Jun 28, 2002 2:55 am

it was 5 years this summer, when the agreement expires.

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Postby Daz » Fri Jun 28, 2002 4:13 am

my windows XP desktop
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/kwirl/desktop2.doc
to say that windows XP is not versatile just means you have not played with it.

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Postby Elseenas » Fri Jun 28, 2002 8:02 am

Daz:

Skin != Customizable.



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Postby Sarvis » Fri Jun 28, 2002 8:45 am

"XP is the most inefficient Mickey Mouse excuse for an OS I've ever had the misfortune to work with. It's unstable, it's cartoony, and it's so frustratingly user-friendly..." - Ragorn

As opposed to OSX? PLEASE! OSX is practically built around cartooniness and making it so the dumbest, most illiterate person in the world can still get online and browse the web. From the giant buttons on the toolbar to the way the programs "swirl" down into them when you minimize... God I hate OSX!

"I have to reboot my fiance's XP machine daily, since any graphic-intensive program like Diablo 2 or NWN causes such a huge memory leak that the system grinds to a halt in 4 hours. Win 98 is, in my opinion, a hands-down superior OS to XP in every single benchmarking catagory." - Ragorn

Umm.. maybe there's a problem with your graphics card or something? Most of the people I know have had good things to say abut XP... and you seem to be seeing more bugs than anyone else in the NWN thread. :shrug:

"As for Mac vs. PC, it comes down to one very simple choice: Do you want efficiency, or software?"

My pentium 200MMX outran the G3 with OSX that I used to program on last summer. Explain how this is efficient?

"Does Dell need to paint their computers orange to make people aware of them?"

Heh. I wouldn't buy a dell either... will be building my next computer myself. (Had a friend build my current one...)

Anyways, that's another thing that annoys me about Macs. They are marketed as something that is "pretty" rather than functional. It's like they want people to buy them to match the furniture in the living room rather than so they have a good computer they can get things done on. If I really wanta pink computer I'll buy some spraypaint, and get one that I know can do something instead.

Elseenas:

"All interface in a variety of different ways which, if you aren't careful, will *bite* you."

As opposed to being unable to upgrade a Mac at all by yourself? Even if you know what you are doing? I think I'll take something where I can upgrade it when necessary, even if I have to be "careful" about it.

<i>"Actually I used to consult for high schools and for various departments at Tulane University.

Yes, I would.

There is also the Virginia school district, which just purchased several thousand iBooks and is my reference."</i>

Bah. Great, so now all of next generations workforce will be well trained on computers they will probably never use again. Well, I didn't learn anything useful in school either... why should they?

In my experience, if it is from MS its security is crap, its configuration sucks, and programming for it is a royal pain.

I sincerely hope you aren't implying that it is easy to code for a Mac? Carbon is quite possibly the most complicated, messed up and shittiest programming library I've ever seen. Granted, I haven't seen that many... but it makes MFC look like a sparkling jewel by comparison. I can only hope I'll never be forced to program on a Mac again...

That said, I'll happily go back to coding on Mac's if I can get a job... heh.

Ok... haven't read the entire thread... way too tired for that now. So sorry if I repeated something someone else already said.



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Postby Ensis » Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:34 am

Just as a side note :P

I used to be able to say the same thing about win95/98 when i supported it..since I dropped out of the computer world and just kept going along with the latest upgrades (and didn't study up on how to fix them) they've been pretty much a Nightmare.

It's pretty easy for a lot of you to say XP rocks because you're certified in it, or you support it everyday and fix it. From a user's perspective, mine crashes all the time, I constantly have to reboot because it slows down, and all the new check boxes and buttons confuse the hell out of me in comparison to the simplicity that was 95/98.

Granted XP is awesome compared to ME, but ME was the biggest piece of shit ever conceived.

Daz..how come anytime someone has a different opinion from yours it's "biased propaganda" go buy a thesaurus and realize that there might be a slight chance you aren't always right. This is just a bullshit argument. If either side wanted it to go somewhere there would be SOME concession. I'm waiting for you all to degenerate into-

"uh-huh!"
"nuh-uh!"
(rinse, repeat)




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Postby Croban/Owom » Fri Jun 28, 2002 11:14 am

nuh-uh!

honestly, I thought I said it best Image

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Postby Elseenas » Fri Jun 28, 2002 1:07 pm

Owom:

uh-huh! (EDIT: threw this in for Ensis)

Absolutely Image

Sarvis

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
As opposed to OSX? PLEASE! OSX is practically built around cartooniness and making it so the dumbest, most illiterate person in the world can still get online and browse the web. From the giant buttons on the toolbar to the way the programs "swirl" down into them when you minimize... God I hate OSX!
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is a fundamental difference you are missing here.

I can *recompile my kernel*; write using sh, bash, and tcsh; and work with a pure Unix OS under the hood.

I can change the entire UI (hell, I can run G•Nome if you prefer) without emulation and XWindows forwarding works with a click.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">My pentium 200MMX outran the G3 with OSX that I used to program on last summer. Explain how this is efficient?</font>


Sure. Last summer was what version of OS X? 10.0.0? 10.0 was slower than molasses on a cold day. The Beta versions were even worse.

Second, I need to know the exact configuration of both systems, what you were running, and how you were benchmarking. Else I cannot make a diagnosis.

A properly set up system to handle it should have at least a 350 MHz G3 processor and 512 MBs of RAM, Rage 128 or better preferred. You can do it with less, but thats what I generally recommend.

If you were running it on a 266 MHz with 128 MBs and a Rage II then I truly pity you.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
As opposed to being unable to upgrade a Mac at all by yourself?
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

I have maxed out the RAM in my iBook, overclocked and done all sorts of interesting things in my desktop, and used to install new processor cards at a major university (among other things). I know several people who swapped out the hard drives in their powerbooks and iBooks.

The *old* iMacs weren't upgradeable other than RAM (which you could do yourself). The new ones most certainly can be if you have the tools.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I sincerely hope you aren't implying that it is easy to code for a Mac?</font>


Try Cocoa. The most efficient, elegantly designed, and workable API I have ever dealt with.

Particularly when you mesh it with Interface Builder and Project Builder.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
but it makes MFC look like a sparkling jewel by comparison
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Work much with file handling?


::Goes back to programming in Prolog::


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Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning

[This message has been edited by Elseenas (edited 06-28-2002).]
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Postby Corth » Fri Jun 28, 2002 1:30 pm

I have hated every operating system since dos 3.3

to me, every version of windows has been a behemoth mess of a program that just causes crashes. The funny thing is that although windows is supposed to be user friendly, it requires more support and gives newbie computer users 100x the amount of headaches then dos ever did. When something goes wrong with windows, all your applications are screwed. Often the suggested solution is to reinstall windows entirely and then you have to re-install everything and copy from backups, and.. blah. With dos, the OS itself could be reinstalled without any difficulty. If an individual program got messed up, you just reinstalled it and everything was hunky dory. Applications for multitasking in dos, such as desqview, could have been improved upon to give the same sort of experience that windows does now. I just never got the point behind windows..

Corth

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Goddamned slippery mage.
Zrax
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Posts: 593
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Fairborn, OH, USA
Contact:

Postby Zrax » Fri Jun 28, 2002 2:00 pm

This is a topic where it is better to agree to disagree. You are going to have die hard loyalists from all corners on this, better to just tout the aspects of your favorite than to call someone biased (arnt we all).

Isn't the purpose of a skin to make something customizable? You need to send me that skin Daz, that is cool looking. Prettier looking than the latest Macintosh Image

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And shepherds we shall be, for Thee my Lord, for Thee.
Power hath descended forth from Thy hand,
that our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command.
We will flow a river forth unto Thee,
and teeming with souls shall it ever be.
In nomine Patris, et Fili, et Spiritu Sancti.

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