Think Different

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
Elseenas
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Postby Elseenas » Fri Jun 28, 2002 2:11 pm

Zrax:

"Prettier looking than the latest Macintosh"

::laughs::

Then change it! There are plethora of options for software that will and you can even run englightenment on the damned thing.



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Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
Elseenas
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Postby Elseenas » Fri Jun 28, 2002 2:19 pm

Cringley's Latest is worth reading.

http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20020627.html

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Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
Nekler BlazingWolf
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Postby Nekler BlazingWolf » Fri Jun 28, 2002 4:29 pm

To Ragorn..
Well, first off, gateway isn't known for the best working computers, nor hiring the most knowledgeable people. I bet half their tech support people have never cracked open a computer case. Of course, they wouldn't need to since they read off cards, right? Image
Granted, I haven't gone to school to learn about computers, but I have five years or so hands on messing with them.

Second, have you tried updating DirectX? (If you're both running WindowsXP, this wouldn't apply, as there isn't a newer version unless you consider 8.1b to be newer).
Also, have you gotten the newer version of the detonator4 drivers for her video card? Have you also gotten the latest patches for whatever games you're playing? One game doesn't always work like it should with two separate installs and different hardware. There might be a patch to fix those issues. *shrug*

I honestly dunno why I don't have problems with my computer. I beat the hell out of it, install new programs, delete programs, mess with the registry (ok, so that has caused a problem once or twice..)
When I install windows, one of the first things I do is set my virtual memory to a fixed amount (normally 1.5x the amount of ram)
and disable system restore.
With XP, I find myself changing everything back to look like windows did before. I can't handle all the funky ass colors, hehe.

And good god man! At least get a geforce4mx (yeah, so they are only a mega ultra geforce2)
but it will still play all games decently. If you want something that will last for Nvidia's next two product cycles, get a geforce3 ti 200. I hated to see 3dfx go to (I owned a voodoo3 3000, and a voodoo5 5500), but a card as old as a voodoo3 just isn't gonna be able to handle the newer games and make them look good. (Thats what costs so much you know, is all the pretty graphics. Thank god for MUDs!)

Just my opinion, hehe.
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Postby kiryan » Fri Jun 28, 2002 4:29 pm

mac lovers.. i love them. Here's my reflections...

Almost every cost of ownership study i have ever read is based on 5 years. we should all know that is just stupid. I've also never seen a cost of ownership study that took into account upgrades and power. And in the end, look at it this way, in 10 years there will be a Microsoft, your investment in Microsoft technology and PC hardware will be worth something, can you guarantee that in 10 years Apple will be around? Your gonna get killed on actual cost if Apple goes under. Oh one last shot, if money is important, which it is, and TCO is a good indicator, why is the PC so pervasive? CFO/CEO's weren't stupid last time I checked and both these guys #1 concern is profit. But go ahead, push your TCO studies and your MAC technology in the face of reality.

#1 bluescreen/crash problem with Microsoft/PC's.... People can fuck with it. You get someone who has no computer knowledge downloading every piece of stupid software known to man programmed by some CS101 student on your Mac and it'll blow up too (yes it will, I've crashed MacOS so its possible). I'm not gonna say WinOS is anywhere near as reliable as MacOS, but they are in many ways a victim of their own success. When Mac has 95% market share and the same development and hacking level as MS they can tout their stability and security.

As far as security, anyone remember the Unix worms? The password mail hacks? How about the god password? We forget that Unix had its fair share of security problems when it was the only thing around... Also, your #1 security risk is never hackers, its physical location and employees (internal hackers and the CFO's stupid ass "IAMGOD" password). Anyhow, take away MS OS and all these undesirables your worried about (while ignoring real threats) will be hacking your precious Mac OS and will be ripping Linux a new asshole (open source = very easy to exploit duh).

I do agree with Cherzra, SUN/Unix is the way to go for 100% uptime. Novell 3 & 4 was very very solid also. I hear 6 is great, 5 was shit imo. But, I will say that I have run solid Microsoft servers (6+ mo up time), but in a very controlled environment with very little load. I'll also say the #1 cause of server crashes is too much load, run a Novell box at 99% all day long it too will crash. Just takes a lot more to put a Novell box at 99% than a Microsoft box.

Would I ever recommend MAC? Sure for computer illiterate. Possibly for office workers. World is changing, will there be a computer illiterate market to sell mac's too in 30 years?

And elseenas, a school district IS THE ONLY organization you'd ever be able to sell thousands of ibooks too.

You do education a disservice, they need to be educating our children on CURRENT TECHNOLOGY, btw in case you missed it Microsoft/PC is the dominant computer technology. And im sure these laptops werent for students, so before you get off thinking im stupid our educators need way more exposure and knowledge to the dominant technologies than the students.

Would you sell them Lotus too cause it uses fewer processing cycles per function than Excel? Would you recommend Wordstar cause its file format is less bloated than Word? Would you sell them the Dvorak keyboard because QWERTY is inefficient and designed to be slow? Would you recommend cobol and the as400 because its really scalable architecture? (btw a plug for the as400, anyone else think that upgrading from 32 bit to 64 bit without rewriting any code is damn cool?) You could make a case for every one of the above, but the market and reality has already chosen. Get with the program.

BTW I wont be back to this thread, I don't think anyone who already decided on this issue will be swayed. I hope the undecided will find the above insightful.

[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 06-28-2002).]
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Postby Kuurg » Fri Jun 28, 2002 5:06 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B>my windows XP desktop
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/kwirl/desktop2.doc
to say that windows XP is not versatile just means you have not played with it.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is litestep, it's a shell replacement, it has nothing to do with your operating system, just the shell running on top of it.

I use litestep. I've used it for years and
it's the only thing that makes a windows box
the least bit tolerable.

You're mistaken about your level of control over the Windows OS. You do not have the ability to 'recompile the kernel.'

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·•Kuurg•·
Kuurg
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Postby Kuurg » Fri Jun 28, 2002 5:14 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zrax:
<B>

Isn't the purpose of a skin to make something customizable? You need to send me that skin Daz, that is cool looking. Prettier looking than the latest Macintosh Image

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


bunch of links on litestep, other various shell replacements and links to sites with themes for these replacements.

http://www.litestep.net/
http://pimpin.info/
http://www.shellcity.net/
http://www.skinz.org/
http://www.desktopian.org/
http://exo.terica.net/interface/
http://www.shellscape.org/
http://www.deskmod.org/



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·•Kuurg•·
Zrax
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Postby Zrax » Fri Jun 28, 2002 5:24 pm

Thanks!

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In nomine Patris, et Fili, et Spiritu Sancti.
Kuurg
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Postby Kuurg » Fri Jun 28, 2002 5:32 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kiryan:
<B> And in the end, look at it this way, in 10 years there will be a Microsoft, your investment in Microsoft technology and PC hardware will be worth something, can you guarantee that in 10 years Apple will be around?


CFO/CEO's weren't stupid last time I checked

You get someone who has no computer knowledge downloading every piece of stupid software known to man programmed by some CS101 student on your Mac and it'll blow up too (yes it will, I've crashed MacOS so its possible).


Would I ever recommend MAC? Sure for computer illiterate. Possibly for office workers. World is changing, will there be a computer illiterate market to sell mac's too in 30 years?

BTW I wont be back to this thread, I don't think anyone who already decided on this issue will be swayed. I hope the undecided will find the above insightful.


</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


With any luck, there will be some myths debunked at the conclusion of this thread.


You've posted a few of them.


You're wondering whether Apple will be around? Apple has gobs of money in the bank now. They're better off financially than ever before. The 'lean' years of the Amelio era are behind. The company has been around for close to 20 years - do YOU think they're going away soon?


CFOs and CEOs aren't stupid? Uh, when it comes to technology they often are. a CEO isn't going to evaluate cost/value of implementing a new technology - he is spoon fed this information. The decisions are made by admins and resource managers. Their main concerns? cost, stability, compatibility. The only company seeking to create problems with compatibility (yes, SEEKING TO CAUSE COMPATIBILITY ISSUES) is MS - look at some independent reviews of Palladium, it's a nasty nasty product.


You also mentioned installing tons of software on a macintosh and having it crash. this is true, any system can be crashed by 3rd party software, but with OS X it's a lot more difficult - no more applications grabbing resources from another application - memory threading is handled by the kernel. Provided the 3rd party software doesn't install kernel extensions, you're not likely to have the OS crash, just the single application. And any programmer who is writing kernel extensions better have a good reason for it, it's bad form.


You recommend a Macintosh for the computer illiterate? You're thinking pre OS X, my friend. This new operating system is a darling of the slashdot community (a REAL geek community.) I love the control I have over my environment with OS X.


Almost every post in this thread bashing the Macintosh is by someone who either doesn't or hasn't used them ever (or at least within the last several years.)
I use both, am well informed about the capabilities of both, and recommend Mac's to my friends.


oh, and I know the difference between a shell and the operating system (unlike some of the other people posting in this thread.)


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·•Kuurg•·




[This message has been edited by Kuurg (edited 06-28-2002).]
Sarvis
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Jun 28, 2002 6:02 pm

Elseenas:

"<i>There is a fundamental difference you are missing here.

I can *recompile my kernel*; write using sh, bash, and tcsh; and work with a pure Unix OS under the hood.

I can change the entire UI (hell, I can run G•Nome if you prefer) without emulation and XWindows forwarding works with a click.</i>"

Umm... then why not just run linux and skip the whole Mac crappiness?

Incidentally, from what I'm seeing so far the best thing any of the OSX supporters have had to say is that they can run it like linux/UNIX. Really, why bother with the mac if that is your viewpoint?

"<i>Sure. Last summer was what version of OS X? 10.0.0? 10.0 was slower than molasses on a cold day. The Beta versions were even worse.

Second, I need to know the exact configuration of both systems, what you were running, and how you were benchmarking. Else I cannot make a diagnosis.

A properly set up system to handle it should have at least a 350 MHz G3 processor and 512 MBs of RAM, Rage 128 or better preferred. You can do it with less, but thats what I generally recommend.

If you were running it on a 266 MHz with 128 MBs and a Rage II then I truly pity you.</i>"

I never bothered to find out the exact stats of that system. :shrug: And it was an older version of OSX... in fact I was using the beta for a long time. Maybe the speed issues have improved... but there were a lot of other reasons I hated OSX.

"<i>I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

I have maxed out the RAM in my iBook, overclocked and done all sorts of interesting things in my desktop, and used to install new processor cards at a major university (among other things). I know several people who swapped out the hard drives in their powerbooks and iBooks.

The *old* iMacs weren't upgradeable other than RAM (which you could do yourself). The new ones most certainly can be if you have the tools.</i>

Ok, my bad. Was working from old information.

"<i>Try Cocoa. The most efficient, elegantly designed, and workable API I have ever dealt with.

Particularly when you mesh it with Interface Builder and Project Builder.</i>"

And I'd just have to learn a new language to do it! Not to mention have the existing C++ software we were upgrading completely re-written for the new language...

Seriously though, why couldn't they make a decent library for their C++ programmers? I've always said one of apple's problems is making it hard for people to program for their systems. So fewer people are writing software for them, which has been mentioned as one of their weaknesses.

Just did a job search on Monster.com... not a single listing looking for somone with Objective C skills. Even the people who are writing software for Macs don't seem to be using it... heh. Wonder if there's a reason, or if they just don't want to retrain everyone to a new language...

"Work much with file handling?"

I did last summer on the macs, and it was a bitch. I can't imagine it being harder on a Windows machine... though I could be wrong. :shrug:



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Shevarash
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Postby Shevarash » Fri Jun 28, 2002 6:18 pm

I have one of each - Mac, PC, and Unix. They all have their strengths and weaknesses.

Personally, I'm just thankful that I have a choice.



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Kuurg
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Postby Kuurg » Fri Jun 28, 2002 6:32 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarvis:
<B>

Umm... then why not just run linux and skip the whole Mac crappiness?

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. PMG4's are sweet machines.

2. iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie, iPod, iDVD etc...

3. 3rd party developers are more likely to develop software for the Macintosh than a linux platform.

4. The ability to run legacy software through classic mode.

5. Prestige - you know, all the COOL kids have em'

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·•Kuurg•·

[This message has been edited by Kuurg (edited 06-28-2002).]
Malacar
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Postby Malacar » Fri Jun 28, 2002 6:41 pm

I like XP better than all previous versions of windows, actually. I can make it do exactly what I want, at pretty much any level. You just have that learning curve with any 'new' OS.

That said, I detest Microsoft... If there were more of the programs I used that worked -efficiently- on a Mac, I might ponder using it. Until they crack through that barrier, my money is firmly in AMD/Intel base.

My current PC:
AMD AthlonXP 1700+
512mb DDR Ram
Abit KR7A motherboard
Adaptec 29160N SCSI card
Seagate Cheetah 15000rpm 18gig ultra160 hdd
Seagate Cheetah 15000rpm 70gig ultra160 hdd
Pioneer SCSI 10x DVD-Rom
Yamaha 16/10/40 SCSI CD-RW
SBLive Platinum
Asus GeForce3
Logitech Wireless mouse
Logitech IR wireless keyboard
jaz 1gb SCSI drive
NO floppy drive connected usually
Nothing IDE

My pc works like a champ, and benches in very high. The best part about it? I can build it modularly.. Instead of a package deal. I spend a little here and there(admittedly, not in several months due to unemployment), and upgrade as I go along, to string my costs out... My most expensive part so far is my 80gig cheetah.. Thing cost me over 700 bucks, but it was a vanity toy. I was doing fine with my 18gig that cost me <200 bucks.

I also build PCs for friends and the occasional customer.. Sans monitor, I just built an AMD AthlonXP 1800+ for under 800 bucks. (755.99)

That doesn't include my labor costs, but that's a pretty buff pc.. 512meg ram, geforce3, 82gig drive, etc... The catch is it is not SCSI, and I will fully admit that I use SCSI in my own systems strictly for the stability that is inherent in all Macs... because last I checked, Macs were all SCSI architecture. That may have changed, as I don't keep current on Macs, tho.



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Postby Innova » Fri Jun 28, 2002 6:49 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kiryan:
<B>...in 10 years there will be a Microsoft
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Can you guarantee this? Ten years is a LONG time, especially in the Tech sector. My guess? The wrist slap that the Feds gave MS will not affecty their business practices at all, and they will continue their anti-competitive, monopolistic ways. The government will eventually break apart the company. Some parts will survive, some won't. Of course I won't gaurantee thise either, that'd be foolish, it's just my guess.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kiryan:
CFO/CEO's weren't stupid last time I checked</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Two words: Enron, Worldcom.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kiryan:
#1 bluescreen/crash problem with Microsoft/PC's</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Someone already said this, but a user program should NEVER bring down the OS. Period.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kiryan:
(open source = very easy to exploit duh).</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Security through Obscurity, does not work, it's been proven many times before. Open Source doesn't mean that there will be no bugs in the code, it does mean that when they are found/exploited they will be fixed very quickly. Do I have to dig up some stats on Microsoft's record on fixing KNOWN exploits?


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kiryan:
I'll also say the #1 cause of server crashes is too much load</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Load should have nothing to do with crashes.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kiryan:
You do education a disservice, they need to be educating our children on CURRENT TECHNOLOGY</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hrm, I always thought that when I went to school, I was being taught to make my own decisions in life.....not blindly follow what everyone else is doing....

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kiryan:
btw in case you missed it Microsoft/PC is the dominant computer technology[/QUTOE]

Largely because of the use of anticompetitive, monopolistic practices. Microsoft has been convicted of this.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by kiryan:
Would you sell them Lotus too cause it uses fewer processing cycles per function than Excel? Would you recommend Wordstar cause its file format is less bloated than Word? Would you sell them the Dvorak keyboard because QWERTY is inefficient and designed to be slow? Would you recommend cobol and the as400 because its really scalable architecture? (btw a plug for the as400, anyone else think that upgrading from 32 bit to 64 bit without rewriting any code is damn cool?) You could make a case for every one of the above, but the market and reality has already chosen. Get with the program.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Would you jump off of a bridge, because everyone else is? Bad cliche, but that is what you are suggesting. The most popular choice isn't neccesarily the best.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kiryan:
I hope the undecided will find the above insightful.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ditto.
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Postby Mishre » Fri Jun 28, 2002 8:16 pm

Well Mac supporters.. ihave to say in the face of so much opposition its good that you still argue your point..

And as far as Daz goes i didn't see him flame anyone, he didn't say you were an idiot for liking macs or anything like that.. he just said that what you were saying was ignorant propaganda..

1) ppl, pls stop assuming what someone has done, and what they know and don't know.. You said im obviously not a programmer? well i don't do it pro, but i am amatuer, and i said you could write Nearly any app for customizing the pc the way you want, and that is true, i didn't say anything about a sever, but i did say there were 3rd party programs out there that can help you do what you want, which is true to, and my brother has done some server apps with his his friends, at 0 cost, just cuz you aren't as good at writing programs as me and my bro doesn't mean its impossible to do it.. so please don't assume things about me Image

2) you also assume we haven't used macs? why? just because we don't like them? that makes no sense.. we don't assume you haven't used XP just because you don't like it..

this is a good debate.. lets keep it clean and try to avoid assumptions because it annoys ppl Image

I always like to see other ppls viewpoints, and argueing your case is good.. id like to see some real reasons to use a mac.. but really, the only choice is, what you are familiar with and what you want to do.. but even then, you CAN do anything on a PC that a mac can do.. unless its a specific program written only for mac.. mac users: Window emulations, Windows users, Mac emu? why? hehe Image

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Postby Sarvis » Fri Jun 28, 2002 8:26 pm

Dammit... when do interesting discussions always happen when I have to work a double shift and can't be anywhere near a computer? :sigh:

Kuurg:

1) But how does it compare to something like an Athlon XP 2200? With exactly the hardware I need or can afford at the time rather than just the pre-packaged G4?

Elseenas: Ok, so you can upgrade some of the stuff... wondering though, would it be possible to build your own?

Back to Kuurg:

2) I'm sure there's windows software for all the same stuff. Except maybe the iPod, but there are other portable mp3 players too.

3) And even more likely to develop for windows.

4) WindowsXP does that for older windows/dos software. And seriously, there's not much good old mac software anyway... heh. And classic mode had it's problems last time I had to use it.

5) You mean the pasty white nerds in the corner that all us slightly less pasty white nerds make fun of? Image

Innova:

"Someone already said this, but a user program should NEVER bring down the OS. Period."

We're talking about the real world though. In the ideal world of which yo uspeak, a user program should never crash at all.

"Load should have nothing to do with crashes."

Actually, and again this is in the real world, that would be one of the more accepted reasons for a server crash. Even if the software was perfect, there are physical limits in the hardware. Let's say (for simplicity) that each user on a server requires 1mb of ram, and the server has 1gig of ram. What happens when 1025 people try to log in at once? Until we get infinite ram we'll get that problem... heh.

"Hrm, I always thought that when I went to school, I was being taught to make my own decisions in life.....not blindly follow what everyone else is doing...."

Nope. Blindly following others is pretty much exactly what they want high school graduates do do. They make better janitors and factory workers if they don't think too much on their own. Why do you think educators want things like school uniforms and such? To increase freedom of expression?

"Would you jump off of a bridge, because everyone else is? Bad cliche, but that is what you are suggesting. The most popular choice isn't neccesarily the best."

Umm... no. What we are suggesting is more like that poem where the guy can either take the main road or the road less traveled. The road less traveled _might_ be better, but it might also get him eaten by lions. At least if you run into trouble on the common road, a lot of other people will be around to help you out.


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Postby Innova » Fri Jun 28, 2002 9:39 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarvis:
<B>
We're talking about the real world though. In the ideal world of which yo uspeak, a user program should never crash at all.</B>[/QUOTE}

So am I. I've been running Linux for many years and have NEVER had the OS lock up. User programs do crash, and OS's crash. They shouldn't but they do. But the OS shouldn't let a user program write to memory it doesn't have. The amount of BSOD's that Win95/98/2000/ME/XP generate is just unacceptable to anyone that needs a computer to get work done. If a car, telephone, tv, doesn't work, the manufacturer has to recall it. Shouldn't software manufacturers be held to the same standards? Companies lose Billions of dollars a year because of downtime caused by Viruses, and BSOD's due to Microsoft's faulty product.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sarvis:
Let's say (for simplicity) that each user on a server requires 1mb of ram, and the server has 1gig of ram. What happens when 1025 people try to log in at once? [/QUOTE}

There's something called Virtual Memory. Yes, it hurts performance but the OS shouldn't crash because of it. What happens when we run out of Virtual memory? The OS tells the user program there is not enough memory, and the user program handles it gracefully. You learn this in CS101.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sarvis:
Nope. Blindly following others is pretty much exactly what they want high school graduates do do. They make better janitors and factory workers if they don't think too much on their own. Why do you think educators want things like school uniforms and such? To increase freedom of expression?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This just proves my point. Apparently you want to be a janitor or factory worker.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarvis:
Umm... no. What we are suggesting is more like that poem where the guy can either take the main road or the road less traveled. The road less traveled _might_ be better, but it might also get him eaten by lions. At least if you run into trouble on the common road, a lot of other people will be around to help you out.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I take the road that is going in the direction I want to go.


This is fun, to bad I'll be out of town this weekend, maybe I'll drag the laptop along so that I can keep up with the discussion. If not, I'll check it out Monday.


(Edited to fix the bold/quotes) (apperently it didn't work, oh well)

[This message has been edited by Innova (edited 06-28-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Innova (edited 06-28-2002).]
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Postby Kuurg » Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:19 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarvis:
<B>

1) But how does it compare to something like an Athlon XP 2200? With exactly the hardware I need or can afford at the time rather than just the pre-packaged G4?

2) I'm sure there's windows software for all the same stuff. Except maybe the iPod, but there are other portable mp3 players too.


3) And even more likely to develop for windows.


4) WindowsXP does that for older windows/dos software. And seriously, there's not much good old mac software anyway... heh. And classic mode had it's problems last time I had to use it.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hey, no fair! you chaned the criteria on me after I answered your question. you asked why someone would use a macintosh instead of linux/unix. I based my answers on the advantages conferred by running Mac OS X instead of a Linux or Unix box, not a Windows box. The benefits over a Windows box are different (and some have been enumerated in previous posts.)

point 1 is difficult to refute - it's nice to be able to put your own computer together. I like to tinker so the allure of a BYO is hard to resist.

point 2 - yes, but all of that software is probably 3rd party - the beauty of having all of it bundled on your machine, frequent updates from the product vendor and support all through one company is hard to deny.

3. well, yeah! I mean, if I'm a developer, I want money for my product, I'm going to develop it for the platform that most people use so I can sell more copies. That's a naughty argument to use. shame on you.

4. XP provides access to old DOS games? I haven't tried old dos games on XP, so I don't know how that would work, but pre-XP I always had to use a utility like DOS4GW to get these to work. there is some kick-ass old mac software. I worked in a 3rd party software QA lab back in 94 and we were a mac/PC shop. I tested a bunch of mac software I wouldn't mind having on my computer now.

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Postby Daz » Fri Jun 28, 2002 10:53 pm

To be honest, you guys are all far ahead of me when it comes to server/programming usage for machines. To be honest, my take is that Linux is generically a better OS, for heavy tech usage. Macs are, as someone else said - a 'niche' market. PC's however, are the machine that most of the world turns to, supports, and works with. Will microsoft be here in 10 years? Whoever questioned that is REALLY going out on a wild goose chase to even suggest that apple is more likely to be around in 10 years than microsoft.

On one hand, you say microsoft has beaten the market into submission, on the other - it is in danger within 10 years? Boggle. CEO's are stupid? I hope none of you are posting that from work, or your 'stupid' CEO may have you scout the unemployment offices for him. No CEO is stupid, nor do most CEO's have TOTAL control over their company. Even the most intelligent head honcho can watch a successful company crumble beneath him if the people beneath him are underhanded or incompetent. Anyway, enough off-tangent.

The original reason I posted this thread, was to debate Apple's marketing tactics and which of their dual campaigns would be more effective against PC's. I was by no means hostile towards mac users, and was in fact arguing to find POSITIVE things about apple computers, instead - I get a lot of hostile, irrelevant information from (noted prior) a bunch of angry betamax users (great analogy!)

This thread has done little to encourage me that apple is a thriving technology, rather - the method of defense employed by its users leads me to think that it is more like an endangered species.

Windows shows absolutely no sign of releasing its hold on the PC world, althugh I will willingly acknowledge Linux's growing grasp on the market. Apple however . . has shown nothing innovative in the last few years. BTW - If Apples are doing so well . . . Why are they scrambling to unload warehouses full of unpurchased hardware?

Hmm?

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Postby Mishre » Fri Jun 28, 2002 11:07 pm

Daz, i think he meant that CEO can be stupid when it comes to technology..they don't really know a lot about it but they want to appear smart so they don't ask questions :P

(Dilbert is a good example.. ofcourse.. in there the supervisors really are stupid about everything Image

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Postby Daz » Fri Jun 28, 2002 11:20 pm

There were 2 posts referring to CEO's, I was referring to the person who used Enron and Worldcom as examples. Way to be original. Do you know anything about any company that was not featured in your local supermarket checkout lane?

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Postby Elseenas » Sat Jun 29, 2002 12:28 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kiryan:
(open source = very easy to exploit duh).
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This, along with some of your other statements, tells me that you know *absolutely* nothing about security.

I recommend the books Secrets and Lies and Applied Cryptography, along with the information on the website http://www.counterpane.com.

Sarvis:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Umm... then why not just run linux and skip the whole Mac crappiness?
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What Kurg said, plus: FCP, Photoshop, Quicktime.

FCP doesn't even *exist* on Windows, Photoshop has always performed better on the Mac platform, Quicktime for Mac is far superior to Quicktime for Windows.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Incidentally, from what I'm seeing so far the best thing any of the OSX supporters have had to say is that they can run it like linux/UNIX. Really, why bother with the mac if that is your viewpoint?
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll answer in the form of a question.

Ever use KDE or G•Nome?

They are *not* a mature graphical shell.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">And I'd just have to learn a new language to do it! Not to mention have the existing C++ software we were upgrading completely re-written for the new language...
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ObjC is less of a "new language" than Java is if you haven't dealt with it before.

I can cover the basics and have someone programming in it within a week if they know C++.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Just did a job search on Monster.com... not a single listing looking for somone with Objective C skills.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Odd, I found one calling for Objective C by name. A few calling for Cocoa, and quite a few more calling for a Macintosh programmer (which may or may not be with Objective C).

Same is true of geekfinder.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Even the people who are writing software for Macs don't seem to be using it...
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This hasn't been my impression *at all*. They haven't been using it for *Java* that much, but there are obvious reasons for that. I have seen Objective C taking on a new life with MacOS X and I list it prominently as a job skill on my Resume.

Mishre:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
and i said you could write Nearly any app for customizing the pc the way you want
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unless you are putting *very* narrow bounds on what you mean by "customizing the PC," I don't think you know what you are claiming.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
, just cuz you aren't as good at writing programs as me and my bro doesn't mean its impossible to do it.. so please don't assume things about me
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll give you an example of some real-world projects I am thinking of and you can tell me if you can reasonably complete them in your spare time or without a team of programmers to help you.

*Artificial Joint fitting software using Qt and OpenInventor that would meet a series of requirements for background rendering, distance calculations, and displaying background images.

*Design and build artificial societies to test aid strategies in rural third-world countries. Use Swarm, Repast, or Ascape.

*Build a MUD engine without using a codebase.

*Build a web-server that supports Python, PERL, and Java CGI apps and makes use of SSL.

*Build a multiplayer 3D space strategy game with realistic physics, multiple vessels, and delays in information.

*Construct a criminal profiling expert system that takes into account the information you would find on a ticket, a physical description of the passenger and what he is carrying, and the number of bags checked.

*Build accounting software that works with an OpenLDAP backend, will hold records for several thousand students, and will communicate securely with end users and allow them to change some things, but not others, about their user profile (this one person can do, but it takes time).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
you also assume we haven't used macs? why? just because we don't like them? that makes no sense.. we don't assume you haven't used XP just because you don't like it..
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I assume people haven't used Macintosh computers because they post falsehoods about them that it takes about 30 seconds to rectify.



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Postby Daz » Sat Jun 29, 2002 12:37 am

Elseenas, Your posts continue to be closed-minded and inaccurate. Thank you for posting objective unverifiable opinions and pretending to be knowledgeable without mentioning or looking at two sides of an issue. You have yet to post anything that does anything except convince me your career depends on selling macs.

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Postby Daz » Sat Jun 29, 2002 12:46 am

Speaking of "Invulnerable Macs" -

http://apple.slashdot.org/apple/02/06/28/2055248.shtml?tid=172


As someone in that thread comments . . . . 11 days to release a patch for a security fix. Yeah, Apple is at the top of their game.

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Postby Elseenas » Sat Jun 29, 2002 12:57 am

Daz:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">

Elseenas, Your posts continue to be closed-minded and inaccurate. Thank you for posting objective unverifiable opinions and pretending to be knowledgeable without mentioning or looking at two sides of an issue. You have yet to post anything that does anything except convince me your career depends on selling macs.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Either you are illiterate or you didn't check the links I provided.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Speaking of "Invulnerable Macs" -

http://apple.slashdot.org/apple/02/06/28/2055248.shtml?tid=172


As someone in that thread comments . . . . 11 days to release a patch for a security fix. Yeah, Apple is at the top of their game.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Once again you demonstrate that you understand nothing about security.

These issues are not in the MacOS, these issues are in third-party software that is installed on the Macintosh. It is your responsibility to have updated these independently (they are open source) if you are a web admin and these holes would have affected you in the past 11 days.

These pieces of software install quite cleanly on the Mac and many have done so.

Further, 11 days is *not* a long time. They are joking about it in the comments actually.

Also: Compare and contrast with Microsoft. 6 to 12 months to fix something that *is* in the OS and *cannot* be repaired from any other angle.



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Postby Elseenas » Sat Jun 29, 2002 12:58 am

Daz:

Incidentally, rather than assert that I am inaccurate, please demonstrate where I have made an error.

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Postby Daz » Sat Jun 29, 2002 12:59 am

Keep selling iMacs to underage girls Elseenas, and I will keep doing what I am doing.

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Postby Elseenas » Sat Jun 29, 2002 1:05 am

Daz:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Keep selling iMacs to underage girls Elseenas, and I will keep doing what I am doing.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which is making meaningless assertions that I have provided links on to show why they are incorrect and then saying that I am using nothing more than ignorant propaganda?

Seriously. If you are going to debate, *counterpoint* and don't simply insult the person you are opposite of. This is *basic*.

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Postby Elseenas » Sat Jun 29, 2002 1:07 am

Also, I should mention briefly that no-one here has claimed Macintosh computers are invulnerable. Only that they are based on Unix, which is pretty secure to begin with.

Only that anything from Microsoft has crap for security. I have provided numerous quotes, links, and book references to that effect.

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Postby Daz » Sat Jun 29, 2002 1:14 am

I don't care about your biased opinion enough to refute it. Kiryan did it, good for him. Arguing with you to me is a waste of time. You are a bible thumping baptist offering christianity to save my soul. You don't listen to anything that you don't want to hear, and you REFUSE to acknowledge that you may be wrong. This makes arguing with you about as meaningful as arguing with my monitor. As it is, I will continue making fun of your posts while passing time at work, and leave Kiryan the honors of dissecting your writing.

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Postby Mishre » Sat Jun 29, 2002 1:20 am

This, along with some of your other statements, tells me that you know *absolutely* nothing about security.

What are you talking about? the best hackers use Source code to find vulnerabilities in OSes(and other software) to exploit... i think you need to learn a thing or 2 about learning about security vulnerabilites from the inside out of software.. that is why its EASIER to find holes in an open source OS...


FCP doesn't even *exist* on Windows, Photoshop has always performed better on the Mac platform, Quicktime for Mac is far superior to Quicktime for Windows.

Using any computer made in the last 2 years photoshop runs great... and i absolutely hate Quicktime.. ive tried it on both mac and windows..


Mishre:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and i said you could write Nearly any app for customizing the pc the way you want

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unless you are putting *very* narrow bounds on what you mean by "customizing the PC," I don't think you know what you are claiming.


I'll give you an example of some real-world projects I am thinking of and you can tell me if you can reasonably complete them in your spare time or without a team of programmers to help you.

*Artificial Joint fitting software using Qt and OpenInventor that would meet a series of requirements for background rendering, distance calculations, and displaying background images.

I don't even know what you are talking about there..(except the end.. i can do background rendering, distance calculations and display background images Image

*Design and build artificial societies to test aid strategies in rural third-world countries. Use Swarm, Repast, or Ascape.

Hmm.. well you know, the point of the previous post was ways that you can customize a PC to your liking.. i fail to see why anyone would find doing this ammusing, but if its your thing, go for it :P

*Build a MUD engine without using a codebase.

This is exactly what me and my bro did.. Except we are making it graphical Image (don't worry, it wont be another EQ.. everyone who is working on it haven't even played Sojourn)


*Build a web-server that supports Python, PERL, and Java CGI apps and makes use of SSL.

My bro did this in his spare time..

*Build a multiplayer 3D space strategy game with realistic physics, multiple vessels, and delays in information.

we worked on a game in high school that did all of these things.. with a couple of his friends.. we got bored and abandoned it though Image

*Construct a criminal profiling expert system that takes into account the information you would find on a ticket, a physical description of the passenger and what he is carrying, and the number of bags checked.

1) this would be piece of cake
2) i still don't see why someone would do this to customize a PC for fun :P

*Build accounting software that works with an OpenLDAP backend, will hold records for several thousand students, and will communicate securely with end users and allow them to change some things, but not others, about their user profile (this one person can do, but it takes time).


Ok, all i can say about any of these is only 1 example even seemed to be something that someone would want to change windowsxp .. (making it into a server, although there are 3rd party programs that do this fine).. so most of them don't even matter and most can be done in spare time.. unless you are slow :P (ok, the mud code base did take awhile, but its a lot of fun Image (btw.. i did have a mud for awhile.. webpage is still up at xbox.org(its cheasy and i didn't spend much time on it, and its nearly 2 years old i think Image the mud is down but it was in the advanced stages of development...

anyway.. enough of the testing of my progrmaming prowess.. more talk about why mac 0wnZ W1nXP! :P

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Postby Mishre » Sat Jun 29, 2002 1:24 am

heh.. so do you write programs to do all of those things on your MAC cuz its so much fun to have those? Image or does it automatically come with it? Image

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Postby Elseenas » Sat Jun 29, 2002 2:26 am

Mishre:
::laughs:: Okay, you have me.

Actually I did create a MUD base because it was fun. I left it unfinished (there was a few overly-ambitious features for moving a character between MUDs), but most of it is written out.

The artificial joint software was a project given to some friends of mine by the Rocky Mountain Musco-Skeletal Group.

The Artificial Societies project was something that I wrote with a team of students for the Alliance for Youth Achievement.

The space strategy game is a rather massive open source initiative I'm involved in.

The profiling engine is something that I am working on as a pet project.

Daz:

More insults, kiryans post has been thourghly refuted, and I am more than willing to accept that I could be wrong.

On the other hand, you have offered nothing that would convince anyone except assertions.
I have offered information, sources, and stats to back up my points. If something is unclear then ask rather than insult.

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Postby Daz » Sat Jun 29, 2002 2:30 am

no

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Postby Dezzex » Sat Jun 29, 2002 2:58 am

*sigh*.. this thread really started interesting but Daz man, it's obvious the only person guilty of what you are accusing Elseenas of is yourself. This from an objective reader who has yet to get involved... and I apologize for not being constructive but it's frustrating to see a good thread go bad. And that is all!
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Postby Daz » Sat Jun 29, 2002 3:22 am

I did not start this thread to watch Elseenas try to sell macs to people. This thread was posted to discuss Apple's market strategies, present and future. Elseenas decided to use the thread to bash Windows computers. I am simply not going to put the effort that Elseenas has into defending Macs against Windows. Simply put, hundreds of millions of users tell me I am right.

I COULD dig around the web and find studies, articles, ANYTHING you want posting that macs suck. I can find you articles and studies showing that goats can fly. It is a waste of time, I do NOT care.

If Apples were worth a shit, in a market with 2, maybe 3 competitors, they would have a 3 digit share. They don't. Don't give me shit about Microsoft's uncompetitive practices, Apple dropped the ball by trying to be a hardware system instead of an OS. Microsoft did NOT force them to fail miserably in their marketing and Microsoft did NOT force developers to decide not to
make products for the Macintosh.

I use my XP machine for Photoshop, Bryce, Maya, TrueSpace, and several other design programs. Earlier in this thread, I generally said that Apple had a slight edge in that area, because I ALSO have used Macs to run the same programs, and Although I did not like the interface, Adobe seemed to run smoother on the Mac.

Elseenas has not given me a SINGLE solid piece of information that was not mostly aggressive bashing or marketing on someone elses' part.

I refuse to waste time proving the truth.

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[This message has been edited by Daz (edited 06-28-2002).]
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Postby Ashiwi » Sat Jun 29, 2002 3:26 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dezzex:
<B>*sigh*.. this thread really started interesting but Daz man, it's obvious the only person guilty of what you are accusing Elseenas of is yourself. This from an objective reader who has yet to get involved... and I apologize for not being constructive but it's frustrating to see a good thread go bad. And that is all!

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


It's called "displacement."
Guest

Postby Guest » Sat Jun 29, 2002 3:27 am

I, personally, haven't used Macintosh computers much at all. I've supported them, in an office environment, where there was one Mac and 120 PC's. That doesn't really give me a feel for them.

My father, on the other hand, is responsible for approx 250 PC's and 120 Macintosh computers for a computer lab of a math department at a major university.

Even though they have only approximately twice as many PC's as Macs, their budget for maintenance, repair, upgrades, etc is approximately 4 times that as for the Macintoshes. And that includes purchasing new machines on occasion.

I can't tell you what to buy, but I can tell you that it is significantly more expensive to support a network of PC's running Win98 or Win2k than it is to support one with OSX and G4's. They don't do this out of choice, but as a necessity due to the limited availability of certain high-end scholastic software programs on each type of machine.

I use PC's, that's my thing. But people who swear by Macintoshes may very well have some valid arguments.
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Postby Daz » Sat Jun 29, 2002 3:36 am

Are you saying, Ashiwi that Dezzex does not know what that word means, or are you merely trying to show that you are smarter than he is? Or perhaps, are you trying to insult me?

Just what makes you qualified to tell the rest of us what I am talking about? When have you ever sat down and analyzed me? You know nothing of me other than what I have posted here. If I used that same method of analysis on you, I would figure that you are an egotistical snob, who got beat up in school and feels a need to use your education to put other people down whenever you feel the opportunity arise. You probably got a self-righteous feeling of warmth when you posted that little line about me, didn't you? Wow, I am impressed. You are cool.

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Postby Elseenas » Sat Jun 29, 2002 3:48 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
This thread was posted to discuss Apple's market strategies, present and future.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then you should have posted that rather than a quote from one of Chiat-Day's commercials from several years ago.

A post such as yours was far too open ended for you to arbitrarily restrict it based on your wishes. I didn't hijack your thread--I just moved to the topic you brought up with your second post.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Simply put, hundreds of millions of users tell me I am write.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, you have time to speak to hundred of millions of people? Particularly when the computer market is about 100 million people? I'm shocked.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
It is a waste of time, I do NOT care.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then why are you insulting and rude?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
If Apples were worth a shit, in a market with 2, maybe 3 competitors, they would have a 3 digit share.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have no clue what you are talking about.

325 Apple Computer 5,363.0

If Apples weren't "worth a shit" they wouldn't be 325 on the Fortune 500 list.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
developers to decide not to make products for the Macintosh.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://www.apple.com/macosx/applications/

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Elseenas has not given me a SINGLE solid piece of information that was not mostly aggressive bashing or marketing on someone elses' part.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You call the Gartner reference marketing? I'm impressed you can be that ignorant of a market research group.

You call Scheiner and Cringley propaganda?

You call Counterpane Security, L0pht industries, and the cult of the dead cow marketing and propaganda?

Egads.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
I refuse to waste time proving the truth.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then you refuse to "waste time" trying to find the truth, and that is sad. What is worse is then you then accuse others of falling for marketing and propaganda.

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Postby Elseenas » Sat Jun 29, 2002 3:50 am

Daz

Displacement, from dictionary.com:

A psychological defense mechanism in which there is an unconscious shift of emotions, affect, or desires from the original object to a more acceptable or immediate substitute.


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Postby Daz » Sat Jun 29, 2002 3:56 am

so you got beat up in school, too?

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Postby Mishre » Sat Jun 29, 2002 3:58 am

well.. The reason you see more PC hackers out there trying to cripple windows is because they are what probably 90% of homeowners use (im not sure of numbers, but the point is the majority) if most ppl used Apples you might see more groups trying to hack that.. btw.. L0pht and COD don't really have anything anymore, and anything they had was patched fairly quickly.. (btw, if you think 11 days is long for a patch from MAC, think of how long microsoft knew of a problem with Outlook express with all those I love you and anna kornicova viruses ruined ppls days before they got a patch for that Image (ofcourse some problems from those were network admins being dumb and not even getting the patch when it was available)

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Mishri }-Sentinel-{ Shades of Twilight
Daz
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Postby Daz » Sat Jun 29, 2002 4:06 am

And yes, I got beat up in school - up until 7th Grade. At that point, I realized being almost 6 foot tall mean that I could put those punks in a world of hurt. Hello Paybacks. Goodbye Respectable GPA.

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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
Elseenas
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Postby Elseenas » Sat Jun 29, 2002 4:08 am

Mishre:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
btw.. L0pht and COD don't really have anything anymore, and anything they had was patched fairly quickly.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not quite.

BO is still around, L0pht actually was one of the most respected groups of NT hackers and published numerous security exploits which weren't patched for many months. Their NT Password Cracker still works.

They aren't gone, just part of a larger and much more commercial venture.



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Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
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Postby Mishre » Sat Jun 29, 2002 9:02 am

heh... Back Orfice.. you have to be kind of stupid to allow that.. and im sure someone could develop something like that for any operating system.. afterall you have to download an .exe and run it on your computer for it work Image mmm.. m4c.. tell me more reasons i should switch from PC to mac hehe Image Image Image
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Postby Elseenas » Sat Jun 29, 2002 9:39 am

Actually it isn't nearly as simple as that.

If you run something like that on my system, which has user permissions, the worst that would happen is what any trojan can do. It would not allow remote administration of my system without a password--which is difficult to catch at best.

BO used security holes *in Microsoft's OS* to do what it did. *Nothing* would let you do the same on a Unix system unless you always ran as a superuser.

Further, my system won't run untrusted applications for me. Microsoft seems to be fond of doing that.



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Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
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Postby Elseenas » Sat Jun 29, 2002 8:13 pm

Is it any wonder I don't like Microsoft:

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?
sid=02/06/29/1254230&mode=thread&tid=109

* Digital Rights Management (Security). You agree that in order to protect the integrity of content and software protected by digital rights management ("Secure Content"), Microsoft may provide security related updates to the OS Components that will be automatically downloaded onto your computer. These security related updates may disable your ability to copy and/or play Secure Content and use other software on your computer. If we provide such a security update, we will use reasonable efforts to post notices on a web site explaining the update.

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Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
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Postby Daz » Sun Jun 30, 2002 12:16 am

So?

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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
Elseenas
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Postby Elseenas » Sun Jun 30, 2002 12:55 am

::shakes head::

Daz, you do not understand security.

1) Installing something without authorization is a security hole.

2) "Reasonable Notice" on the Microsoft website could mean just about anything

3) The ability to trigger a download without permission or request, no matter how they are doing this particular trick, is a security flaw.

4) Secure Content has an ambiguous definition. This ambiguity can mean quite a bit and could imply "anything without this tag in it". This is similar to the system that Audio Galaxy has recently implemented.

5) I fail to see how keeping you from playing *media* content qualifies under the heading of "security."



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Postby Eilorn » Sun Jun 30, 2002 1:28 am

Okay, my background:

Use
Mac since 1985
Windows since Win311(year?)
Unix variants since 1982 (BSD40, then ATT SVR?, SunOS4, Solaris, Linux)

Home hardware:
Mac 450MHz G4, 384M, 20GB, DVD (soon to have a CDRW as well), MacOS 9.2.2
Asus A7V, Duron 900MHz, 512M, 40GB, Radion 7300?(twin head) Win2k
Asus P5B, K62-500MHz, 128M, 512MB, Redhat 7.3 (gateway for DSL... going
to swap this for a K62-350 and another board, and make this board
the music/web/db/dns server)
Asus A7V, Thunderbird 1.1GHz, 256Mg, 50GB, Rage 128, Redhat 7.3 (java
development, mud/web/dns/db server, going to take the 30GB drive
out and put it in the P5B, I'll probably put another drive in
for a dual boot of NT, so I can work on some Music software, ZINF.)

Programmer
Mac since 1985
text editors
OS plugins
Application Plugins
Desktop publishing
database browser
music software
educational
Unix variants since 1982 (BSD40, then ATT SVR?, SunOS4, Solaris, Linux)
OS internals
compiler internals
debugger internals
servers
Java since May 2000
xml
web services
Windows since 1999 (seriously intermittent)
Application Plugins
servers
music software

So... my experience with OSes is colored, for the most part, by
my usage pattern: development tools, utilities and browser. The
only game I play is this mud. I've played arcade games, back when
Star Wars(vector graphics) was the killer game. The only 'modern'
video game I've really gotten into was Descent, but I only ever
played the demo.

I don't have OSX, yet, so my comments are without that experience...
I have 9.2.2 on my G4. Development on the mac has been done with
CodeWarrior, MPW, and other tools.

At my current, and previous job my desktop machines have been
PCs running win2k, and nt4. Development systems have been
Visual Studio and JBuilder plus whatever utilities.

I've built about 6 machines, running win311, nt4, and linux.

That said, for the user interface experience, I much prefer the
Mac interface. The windows experience has gotten better and
better over the years, but, I still prefer the mac.

Things I like on the mac
spring loaded folders
single menu bar at top of screen
application layer hiding (hides an application and all its windows)
finder window management
applescript
menubar
storage volumes (mounted volumes can be named anything, network
volumes are easy to mount)
native mac programs(you can move them anywhere and they still run)
file type(TEXT, MSWD, WPC3, etc) (meaning: .txt, .doc, .wp, etc.)
application type (file types can be opened by different applications,
as if you could say certain .txt's are opened by NotePad, some
by WordPad, some by Netscape, some by GVim, etc., though they
can still be read by the other programs)
multiple moniters(you can configure the moniters so that the desktop
is apportioned to them in pretty much any manner, only caveat is
that they have to have *some* vertical or horizontal overlap, and you
can designate a monitor as the main monitor upon which all centered
alerts/windows/dialogs appear)(to kind of explain the overlap:
two 1024x768 monitors could have the desk top appear as one
contiguous desktop 2048x768, with 768 pixels of vertical overlap
or for example, the right monitor could be offset, down, so that
only 100 pixels overlap... I hope that makes sense.) You can
have as many monitors as you have room for cards, and can
arrange them how you like.
Finder view can sort the folders in amongst the files, or, can
sort them by themselves.
ApplWindows (plugin) allows me to ctl-shift click(modifyable) anywhere
on the screen and get a menu of programs and all their windows to
switch to them.
FinderPop, a ContextualMenu plugin has serious right-click powers.
I like, in the Finder, the ability to hide the contents of a window
and only show the title bar... this means I've got about 25 windows
open at once on my desktop (single 1024x768 screen) at once.

Things I don't like about the mac
File system is not hierarchial at the volume level, duplicate volume
names are possible. It doesn't hurt anything, but, a script might
not use the correct volume.
The OS is only available on Apple hardware, though the apple hardware
is studly. I much prefer looking at G4 assembly to Intel assembly.
Though I don't read G4 anywhere as well as I could read 68K.

Things I like on the pc
single window hiding (I like this better than the mac title bar method)
selections are maintained in each window, so if you click off a window
and come back, your selections remain selected
cmd-tab navigation through programs

Things I hate on the pc
storage volumes(add another volume, your cdrom drive may, or may
not change in drive number)
registry
MDI programs
multiple moniters(alerts/windows/dialogs centered on 2 monitors suck)
Not as much interface consistency from program to program, getting better, though.
Reinstall your OS, have to reinstall 99% of your programs.
DLL hell.

Things I like on unix
hierarchial embedded file system(when you add another drive
you mount it within the file system)
Free, and terabytes of free and opensource stuff!
Rock solid, I'm not sure I've ever had a crash on my home unix systems.
Fast and very tunable.

There's probably more that I could add, in all categories, but, I want
to post this before the thread goes stale, or, descends into flames.

At work I've had to do reinstalls of windows versions about 4 times,
at home, on my wife's machine, I've done about maybe 15, with data
loss about 4 times(she still has problems doing backups more than
quarterly, but, she's getting better). I've had to do 1 linux reinstall
when I had a simm go bad in the middle of an upgrade, and it corrupted
the disk. I've had 1 disk go bad on my mac, with loss of data, and
probably 4-5 reinstalls of MacOS (I currently keep a compressed archive
of my system folder, on another drive, so I can come right back up
if need be.) I've had more reinstalls of OS at work, which is where
I came up with that trick(developers can corrupt the FS/OS a *LOT* more
easily than ordinary users :-).

I'm about to buy MacOSX, I'll then have the best of Mac and Unix at
my beck and call :-).


Eilorn.


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Now, we can do this the hard way, or... well, actually there's just the hard way.
-- Buffy, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"

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