my parents spanked me alot . . . .
my parents spanked me alot . . . .
Scientists have found a gene variation that can cause adults to become aggressive, antisocial adults when they were abused as children. This is the first link between antisocial behavior and a specific gene.
It helps explain why, although almost all adult criminals have been abused as children, the majority of abused children grow up to be normal adults.
About one-third of men have the "low-activity" version of the gene for monoamine oxidase A (MAOA), an enzyme that breaks down neurotransmitters, such as serotonin and dopamine, that give people a positive outlook on life. The absence of this gene is linked to aggression.
The study of 1,037 males in New Zealand shows that the low-activity form of the gene alone does not mean a person is destined to an adult who breaks the rules. But children with this gene variation who were also abused grow up to commit more crimes. Adults with the faulty gene and an abusive background made up only 12 per cent of the study but were responsible for 44 per cent of the crimes.
"The combination of the low-activity MAOA genotype and maltreatment predicts antisocial behaviors as well as high cholesterol predicts heart disease," says Terrie Moffitt of King's College, London.
The kind of abuse that creates conditions for adult criminality can be physical or sexual, and includes frequent changes in the main caregiver or rejection by the mother. This kind of childhood is experienced by many children who end up in foster care. "As adults, 85 per cent of the severely mistreated children who also had the gene for low MAOA activity developed antisocial outcomes, such as violent criminal behavior," says Moffitt.
The MAOA gene is located on the X chromosome. Males have only one X chromosome, while females have two. So females with a low-activity form of the gene could also have a high-activity "protective" version that would cancel out the negative effect. This might help to explain why men are more violent than women. Scientists don’t know if drugs would help alleviate the gene’s effect.
This new finding means that children who are likely to grow up to be aggressive and anti-social could be targeted at a young age. Adult criminals could be genetically tested and receive longer sentences if they have the faulty gene, since it would predict a life of crime. We could even reach the point where we genetically tested young children and either sequestered them, or put them on lifelong drugs, depending upon whether they had the MAOA gene.
Ian Craig, head of molecular genetics at the MRC Social, Genetic and Developmental Research Center in the U.K. says, "…If you knew someone had an abusive background, you'd want to do something about that background.”
In the recent film “Minority Report,” pre-cognition allows police to arrest murderers before they kill. With genetic testing, we could achieve the same result. We may not want to face having to isolate a few genetically-flawed individuals in order to protect the majority, but we may soon have to confront that responsibility. Welcome to the future.
******
im sorry :P
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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
It helps explain why, although almost all adult criminals have been abused as children, the majority of abused children grow up to be normal adults.
About one-third of men have the "low-activity" version of the gene for monoamine oxidase A (MAOA), an enzyme that breaks down neurotransmitters, such as serotonin and dopamine, that give people a positive outlook on life. The absence of this gene is linked to aggression.
The study of 1,037 males in New Zealand shows that the low-activity form of the gene alone does not mean a person is destined to an adult who breaks the rules. But children with this gene variation who were also abused grow up to commit more crimes. Adults with the faulty gene and an abusive background made up only 12 per cent of the study but were responsible for 44 per cent of the crimes.
"The combination of the low-activity MAOA genotype and maltreatment predicts antisocial behaviors as well as high cholesterol predicts heart disease," says Terrie Moffitt of King's College, London.
The kind of abuse that creates conditions for adult criminality can be physical or sexual, and includes frequent changes in the main caregiver or rejection by the mother. This kind of childhood is experienced by many children who end up in foster care. "As adults, 85 per cent of the severely mistreated children who also had the gene for low MAOA activity developed antisocial outcomes, such as violent criminal behavior," says Moffitt.
The MAOA gene is located on the X chromosome. Males have only one X chromosome, while females have two. So females with a low-activity form of the gene could also have a high-activity "protective" version that would cancel out the negative effect. This might help to explain why men are more violent than women. Scientists don’t know if drugs would help alleviate the gene’s effect.
This new finding means that children who are likely to grow up to be aggressive and anti-social could be targeted at a young age. Adult criminals could be genetically tested and receive longer sentences if they have the faulty gene, since it would predict a life of crime. We could even reach the point where we genetically tested young children and either sequestered them, or put them on lifelong drugs, depending upon whether they had the MAOA gene.
Ian Craig, head of molecular genetics at the MRC Social, Genetic and Developmental Research Center in the U.K. says, "…If you knew someone had an abusive background, you'd want to do something about that background.”
In the recent film “Minority Report,” pre-cognition allows police to arrest murderers before they kill. With genetic testing, we could achieve the same result. We may not want to face having to isolate a few genetically-flawed individuals in order to protect the majority, but we may soon have to confront that responsibility. Welcome to the future.
******
im sorry :P
------------------
-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
the Idea of punishing children who are abused and have a genetic traight that may promote violent behavior is morally reprehensable. Why don't we just work to stop violence in the home.
it's like saying that women who wear clothes that are visually pleasing should be quaritened be couse there appearence promotes sexual preditors to rape them.
when will we stop punishing the victim and start working on the problem.
it's like saying that women who wear clothes that are visually pleasing should be quaritened be couse there appearence promotes sexual preditors to rape them.
when will we stop punishing the victim and start working on the problem.
Now, I'm not one for obsessive discipline that gets down right abusive. But when I was growing up, and I stepped way outta line, my father and mother would lay a good one across my backside. And I'd be damned if I'd ever step that way outta line again. I'd find some other way
The thing is, I have always had the utmost respect for my parents. I love them dearly. And now I realize that the things I did to make them whip my tail, well frankly, I deserved it, LOL. They never went overboard, they never were abusive about it, but they made sure I understood what was up.
If parents handle their children the right way, discipline them sternly, yet give them the love they need, I think we'd see a lot less of this "I was abused, therefore I'm a bad person"
Pleas of insanity and "I was an abused child" don't fly in my book. Those people KNEW it was wrong, yet did it anyway. I won't go into rape, because my beliefs on what should be done to rapists is a little.... intense. Even movie rape scenes make me get up and leave the room. Pure hatred for it.
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The thing is, I have always had the utmost respect for my parents. I love them dearly. And now I realize that the things I did to make them whip my tail, well frankly, I deserved it, LOL. They never went overboard, they never were abusive about it, but they made sure I understood what was up.
If parents handle their children the right way, discipline them sternly, yet give them the love they need, I think we'd see a lot less of this "I was abused, therefore I'm a bad person"
Pleas of insanity and "I was an abused child" don't fly in my book. Those people KNEW it was wrong, yet did it anyway. I won't go into rape, because my beliefs on what should be done to rapists is a little.... intense. Even movie rape scenes make me get up and leave the room. Pure hatred for it.
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Behavior is not dictated or determined by genetics. Behavior is a complex mixture of genetic predisposition and environmental influences... what people call "nature vs. nurture." The author of this essay was accurate in the beginning and middle when he was describing the gene and what it does, but his conclusions about it are reprehensible.
You can't genetically profile criminals. There are too many factors that go into determining a person's behavior to ever say "This guy's got the rapist gene, we oughtta watch him." That type of profiling is unjustified, since disposition doesn't guarantee behavior. In America at least, it would also not only be illegal with our current system of laws, it would be an unconstitutional breach of privacy and discrimination.
The other problem, the one that reveals the fundamental difference in opinion between psychology and traditional medicine, is the idea that you could simply treat a person with this gene by drugging him for his whole life. I won't really get into my feelings on that, but there are so many better solutions to dealing with behavior than forcing people to take behavior-affecting medication :P
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- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
You can't genetically profile criminals. There are too many factors that go into determining a person's behavior to ever say "This guy's got the rapist gene, we oughtta watch him." That type of profiling is unjustified, since disposition doesn't guarantee behavior. In America at least, it would also not only be illegal with our current system of laws, it would be an unconstitutional breach of privacy and discrimination.
The other problem, the one that reveals the fundamental difference in opinion between psychology and traditional medicine, is the idea that you could simply treat a person with this gene by drugging him for his whole life. I won't really get into my feelings on that, but there are so many better solutions to dealing with behavior than forcing people to take behavior-affecting medication :P
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- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
Talk about abuse bothers me for good reason. Spanking a kid because he talks back to you or disobeys deliberately, I can handle. The way a kid acts and or behaves all comes down to how the parents raised the kid and his influences. Also affecting their future behavior is how strict or not a parent decides to be. My parents did every possible thing a parent shouldn't do to me and at 22 I still can't get over it. This whole gene thing may be true but is not the sole reason for a f***** up individual.
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Jennie
@}--`--,---
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Jennie
@}--`--,---
**NOTE** This is in no way directed to any individual who has or has not posted here.
There are genetic reasons for behavioral trends, and there are learned reasons. I grew up in an incredibly violent household, which included having my father blow holes in our home with a shotgun while my mother, my sister and I were in it when I was five, burn our home down when I was six, and then when my mother remarried to try to find protection from him, there was an occasion I remember where my stepfather held a gun to my head when I was eleven when he and my mother were having an argument. There was more than one occasion where we climbed out the back window and just ran. Do I think that my childhood was really any worse than the next person's? Hell no. We all have our own issues.
No, I do not exaggerate for attention. No, I am not looking for any kind of sympathy. Perhaps I grew a bit calloused over the years, but I fully believe that unless we have been wounded beyond any recovery, then only WE are responsible for controlling our behavior. There are many people who are genetically predisposed to a higher level of aggressive behavior, but who manage to control it and lead normal lives. There are many people who grow up out of totally screwed up childhoods and go on to become achievers, good parents, and decently stable citizens. There are people who suffer through what seems like intolerable mental disorders yet manage to get through it one day at a time and still progress in their lives.
There is a huge trend lately to blame all our problems on how we were raised, or to say we have this or that psychological disorder which "rules" our behavior and causes us to behave "inappropriately." Too many people look for excuses as to why they behave aggressively/erratically/selfishly/whatever behavior it is we are defending. It does not help in any way to defend a behavior like this, protecting it under layers of excuses and reasons, making it easier for us to continue in patterns we have become accustomed to, instead of making ourselves put in the WORK to see that we are responsible for our own behavior, and the WORK to change it.
If you are capable of looking inside of yourself and recognizing that you are tired/angry/sad/distraught/frightened, or any of the innumerable emotional conditions human beings find themselves going through daily, then you are capable of changing that condition, or putting forth the effort which will change your environment in order to reduce the situations which cause those conditions.
You want to yell and scream, throw things, lash out and hurt those who are closest to you every time that anger rises inside of you and then say you can't help it? Tell yourself you're genetically predisposed to it, then write it off as something you can't control. Unless you convince yourself that it IS something you can control you will never get beyond it.
You want to wallow in how awful life is so that everybody else will coddle and protect you, so then you can have valid reasons for seeking constant approval and affection without having to put forth the efforts which net acclaim? Develop one of the psychological conditions which are becoming more and more prevalent and fashionable, but which have really probably existed time out of mind for millions of other individuals who never gave in to it, and blame all your whining, weakness, and apathy on it.
You want to be trapped in the fears and doubts of your childhood for the rest of your life? Fixate on that point in time and blame everything that's wrong in your life on the way your parents treated you. Then everything that continues to go wrong in your life can be blamed on them as well and you will never have to take responsibility for the fact that you're an adult now and your life is yours to control.
Yes, there are physical conditions which can cause our behavior to run beyond our control. Yes, there are emotional scars which have been carved so deep as to leave us helpless against our own protective mechanisms. The human mind is an incredibly complex system which bases almost every computation it makes on the survivability of the organism which hosts it, and it is capable of pulling us through even the harshest of situations *most* of the time. What we have to do is work to recognize the protective mechanisms we have built up to protect us from the physical and emotional obstacles which arrest our development, and then MAKE ourselves rein them in. We are capable of controlling our behavior unless we are the ones telling ourselves we are incapable.
Unless our physical or emotional conditions are completely debilitating, then we ARE capable of learning how to control them. Sometimes medication helps, but often the need for medication is a protective mechanism within itself, allowing us to convince ourselves that the personal behavior we exhibit which so distresses or disgusts us is really something we have no control of, and therefore we can neither be found at fault for it, nor can we be expected to put forth the effort to change it.
If you feel you need medication, get it. If you need to change your environment, then find the means to do it. If you need to break down and cry on somebody's shoulder then by all means do so, then move on. Don't let the obstacles become a lifestyle.
Get through it. Get beyond it. Get over it. Get on.
There are genetic reasons for behavioral trends, and there are learned reasons. I grew up in an incredibly violent household, which included having my father blow holes in our home with a shotgun while my mother, my sister and I were in it when I was five, burn our home down when I was six, and then when my mother remarried to try to find protection from him, there was an occasion I remember where my stepfather held a gun to my head when I was eleven when he and my mother were having an argument. There was more than one occasion where we climbed out the back window and just ran. Do I think that my childhood was really any worse than the next person's? Hell no. We all have our own issues.
No, I do not exaggerate for attention. No, I am not looking for any kind of sympathy. Perhaps I grew a bit calloused over the years, but I fully believe that unless we have been wounded beyond any recovery, then only WE are responsible for controlling our behavior. There are many people who are genetically predisposed to a higher level of aggressive behavior, but who manage to control it and lead normal lives. There are many people who grow up out of totally screwed up childhoods and go on to become achievers, good parents, and decently stable citizens. There are people who suffer through what seems like intolerable mental disorders yet manage to get through it one day at a time and still progress in their lives.
There is a huge trend lately to blame all our problems on how we were raised, or to say we have this or that psychological disorder which "rules" our behavior and causes us to behave "inappropriately." Too many people look for excuses as to why they behave aggressively/erratically/selfishly/whatever behavior it is we are defending. It does not help in any way to defend a behavior like this, protecting it under layers of excuses and reasons, making it easier for us to continue in patterns we have become accustomed to, instead of making ourselves put in the WORK to see that we are responsible for our own behavior, and the WORK to change it.
If you are capable of looking inside of yourself and recognizing that you are tired/angry/sad/distraught/frightened, or any of the innumerable emotional conditions human beings find themselves going through daily, then you are capable of changing that condition, or putting forth the effort which will change your environment in order to reduce the situations which cause those conditions.
You want to yell and scream, throw things, lash out and hurt those who are closest to you every time that anger rises inside of you and then say you can't help it? Tell yourself you're genetically predisposed to it, then write it off as something you can't control. Unless you convince yourself that it IS something you can control you will never get beyond it.
You want to wallow in how awful life is so that everybody else will coddle and protect you, so then you can have valid reasons for seeking constant approval and affection without having to put forth the efforts which net acclaim? Develop one of the psychological conditions which are becoming more and more prevalent and fashionable, but which have really probably existed time out of mind for millions of other individuals who never gave in to it, and blame all your whining, weakness, and apathy on it.
You want to be trapped in the fears and doubts of your childhood for the rest of your life? Fixate on that point in time and blame everything that's wrong in your life on the way your parents treated you. Then everything that continues to go wrong in your life can be blamed on them as well and you will never have to take responsibility for the fact that you're an adult now and your life is yours to control.
Yes, there are physical conditions which can cause our behavior to run beyond our control. Yes, there are emotional scars which have been carved so deep as to leave us helpless against our own protective mechanisms. The human mind is an incredibly complex system which bases almost every computation it makes on the survivability of the organism which hosts it, and it is capable of pulling us through even the harshest of situations *most* of the time. What we have to do is work to recognize the protective mechanisms we have built up to protect us from the physical and emotional obstacles which arrest our development, and then MAKE ourselves rein them in. We are capable of controlling our behavior unless we are the ones telling ourselves we are incapable.
Unless our physical or emotional conditions are completely debilitating, then we ARE capable of learning how to control them. Sometimes medication helps, but often the need for medication is a protective mechanism within itself, allowing us to convince ourselves that the personal behavior we exhibit which so distresses or disgusts us is really something we have no control of, and therefore we can neither be found at fault for it, nor can we be expected to put forth the effort to change it.
If you feel you need medication, get it. If you need to change your environment, then find the means to do it. If you need to break down and cry on somebody's shoulder then by all means do so, then move on. Don't let the obstacles become a lifestyle.
Get through it. Get beyond it. Get over it. Get on.
Very well written, Ash.
I especially remember my dad holding a butcher knife to my throat. One of these days, if I can get over being totally distraught by memories, I will follow what you wrote. Would like to talk to you sometime, you should like you'd make a good shrink, I need one who is willing to kick me in the ass instead of taking my money and telling me its not my fault.
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Jennie
@}--`--,---
I especially remember my dad holding a butcher knife to my throat. One of these days, if I can get over being totally distraught by memories, I will follow what you wrote. Would like to talk to you sometime, you should like you'd make a good shrink, I need one who is willing to kick me in the ass instead of taking my money and telling me its not my fault.
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Jennie
@}--`--,---
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B>kiss my ass ashiwi. you have no clue what you are talking about. circumstances that apply to you have jack shit meaning to people who are not you.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
denial is a bad bad thing ... hun i think she said in her post this was not directed at anyone who has or hasn't posted here ....
for you to run with it is ...... welll guess ya got issue
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Ambar -= Beloved Matron =- Crimson Coalition
<B>kiss my ass ashiwi. you have no clue what you are talking about. circumstances that apply to you have jack shit meaning to people who are not you.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
denial is a bad bad thing ... hun i think she said in her post this was not directed at anyone who has or hasn't posted here ....
for you to run with it is ...... welll guess ya got issue
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Ambar -= Beloved Matron =- Crimson Coalition
-
- Sojourner
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: la la land
bravo Ashiwi.
i was abused as a child, mentally and physically, people who didnt grow up being beat down constantly cant possibly understand what thats like. Having a man twice your size beat you and your mother turning a blind eye.
Growing up in intsitutions because you were a "problem child" when the reality of the situation was you liked the wood cutting camps and the lock ups. They were safe, knowing if you did follow the rules they were only going to send you back home.
Being cut down and degraded constantly being told you cant, youre not good enough, youre not smart enough, you are worthless and a burden.
Thats no kind of way to grow up and it is very debilitating.
My childhood sucked. So what? Im and adult now and im in charge of my own life. Im not going to try to pass the buck onto someone else when i make a mistake. _I_ made a mistake, noone else made it for me.
I didnt like my home life, so as a child i did what i could to avoid it. When i turned 18 i moved out. Since then ive traveled 41 states with no more than a bag on my shoulder and a thumb in the air. I needed a change in my enviorment and so thats what i did. My travels are something i would not trade for anything, was the happiest most carefree time of my life.
I am by no means a passifist, i believe sometimes violence does solve problems, but it is a last resort and only to be used in ones own defence. The most liberating experience of my life was the day i put my stepdad on his ass, i was 20 years old. You shouldnt swing at a man and not expect him to swing back, he got what he had coming and i have never been fearfull or timid of any man since.
I still have issues, we all do, but i work very hard to deal with them and be the best person i possibly can.
I am a very patient and tolerant person, thats not how i was brought up and thats not how i feel sometimes. There are times when it takes alot of effort to rein in my emotions. But i am aware of this and take extra effort to recognize early on the need to step back and take a deep breath.
I try to recognize the things i like in other people and incorperate those qualities to myself. I also try to recognize things i dont like and make the extra effort not to do those things.
We are each responisble for our own actions. The key is to think first, act second.
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X
[This message has been edited by idrathernotsay (edited 08-05-2002).]
i was abused as a child, mentally and physically, people who didnt grow up being beat down constantly cant possibly understand what thats like. Having a man twice your size beat you and your mother turning a blind eye.
Growing up in intsitutions because you were a "problem child" when the reality of the situation was you liked the wood cutting camps and the lock ups. They were safe, knowing if you did follow the rules they were only going to send you back home.
Being cut down and degraded constantly being told you cant, youre not good enough, youre not smart enough, you are worthless and a burden.
Thats no kind of way to grow up and it is very debilitating.
My childhood sucked. So what? Im and adult now and im in charge of my own life. Im not going to try to pass the buck onto someone else when i make a mistake. _I_ made a mistake, noone else made it for me.
I didnt like my home life, so as a child i did what i could to avoid it. When i turned 18 i moved out. Since then ive traveled 41 states with no more than a bag on my shoulder and a thumb in the air. I needed a change in my enviorment and so thats what i did. My travels are something i would not trade for anything, was the happiest most carefree time of my life.
I am by no means a passifist, i believe sometimes violence does solve problems, but it is a last resort and only to be used in ones own defence. The most liberating experience of my life was the day i put my stepdad on his ass, i was 20 years old. You shouldnt swing at a man and not expect him to swing back, he got what he had coming and i have never been fearfull or timid of any man since.
I still have issues, we all do, but i work very hard to deal with them and be the best person i possibly can.
I am a very patient and tolerant person, thats not how i was brought up and thats not how i feel sometimes. There are times when it takes alot of effort to rein in my emotions. But i am aware of this and take extra effort to recognize early on the need to step back and take a deep breath.
I try to recognize the things i like in other people and incorperate those qualities to myself. I also try to recognize things i dont like and make the extra effort not to do those things.
We are each responisble for our own actions. The key is to think first, act second.
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X
[This message has been edited by idrathernotsay (edited 08-05-2002).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
<B>Spanking is good. All children should be spanked to learn that there are boundaries. Spanking != abuse.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Agreed.
Spanking is not violence. Beating the hell outta your kid is violence.
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<B>Spanking is good. All children should be spanked to learn that there are boundaries. Spanking != abuse.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Agreed.
Spanking is not violence. Beating the hell outta your kid is violence.
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I agree, spanking is not child abuse. However, some parents take spanking too far. Spanking is highly effective if:
1. The severity of the spanking matches the severity of the punishment. If you slap your kid in the face as hard as you can because he doesn't eat his peas, that is child abuse.
2. The spanking comes immediately after the behavior it's supposed to punish. Punishment in general decreases exponentially in effectiveness the longer you wait between behavior and punishment. Spanking your kid "when daddy gets home" for something he did at 9am will neither teach him nor prevent the behavior in the future.
3. The child has clear boundaries and knows why he was spanked. If children live in constant fear of being hit, or sometimes get spanked and sometimes not, then it's not effective.
4. The spanking stops before the child reaches puberty. Beyond age 10 or 11, spanking is more embarassment than actual punishment, and embarassment doesn't work the same way.
Spanking is a very effective short-term way to prevent negative behavior. But kids react differently to it... if you find yourself spanking your kid 5-6 times a day, or spanking him repeatedly for the same behavior, then it's not working and you need to find another form of punishment that he'll respond to. There's nothing wrong with spanking, and there are no studies that have conclusively showed that RESPONSIBLE spanking leads to violence later in life. I was spanked, and I will spank my kids.
The golden rule of spanking is: NEVER spank your kid if you're angry. Parents who take their frustrations out by spanking their kids are usually the ones who do it incorrectly. If your kid frustrates you to the point where you feel like you need to vent, then the thing to do is take 10 minutes to calm down, then find an alternate means of punishment. There's no excuse to ever bruise a child through punishment.
Ashiwi, bravo on telling us all that. Daz's reaction is childish and ignorant, and probably designed to get attention. He should have been spanked more as a kid, he wouldn't act out so much
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- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
1. The severity of the spanking matches the severity of the punishment. If you slap your kid in the face as hard as you can because he doesn't eat his peas, that is child abuse.
2. The spanking comes immediately after the behavior it's supposed to punish. Punishment in general decreases exponentially in effectiveness the longer you wait between behavior and punishment. Spanking your kid "when daddy gets home" for something he did at 9am will neither teach him nor prevent the behavior in the future.
3. The child has clear boundaries and knows why he was spanked. If children live in constant fear of being hit, or sometimes get spanked and sometimes not, then it's not effective.
4. The spanking stops before the child reaches puberty. Beyond age 10 or 11, spanking is more embarassment than actual punishment, and embarassment doesn't work the same way.
Spanking is a very effective short-term way to prevent negative behavior. But kids react differently to it... if you find yourself spanking your kid 5-6 times a day, or spanking him repeatedly for the same behavior, then it's not working and you need to find another form of punishment that he'll respond to. There's nothing wrong with spanking, and there are no studies that have conclusively showed that RESPONSIBLE spanking leads to violence later in life. I was spanked, and I will spank my kids.
The golden rule of spanking is: NEVER spank your kid if you're angry. Parents who take their frustrations out by spanking their kids are usually the ones who do it incorrectly. If your kid frustrates you to the point where you feel like you need to vent, then the thing to do is take 10 minutes to calm down, then find an alternate means of punishment. There's no excuse to ever bruise a child through punishment.
Ashiwi, bravo on telling us all that. Daz's reaction is childish and ignorant, and probably designed to get attention. He should have been spanked more as a kid, he wouldn't act out so much
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- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
Daz sorry to burst your bubble but Ashiwi and alot of other people myself included have been abused in a violent way and you don't posses the omnipotent knowledge to know what is true and what isn't. Ashiwi made good points so maybe you should learn to respect differing points of view rather than cursing and ridiculing them.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
<B>Spanking is good. All children should be spanked to learn that there are boundaries. Spanking != abuse.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you can't teach children that there are boundaries without resorting to striking them, you need therapy, plain and simple. There are a multitude of ways to show displeasure. When was the last time you turned to one of your friends and punched their lights out because they crossed one of your boundaries? That's the relative equivalent, considering the child hasn't a prayer of fighting back.
<B>Spanking is good. All children should be spanked to learn that there are boundaries. Spanking != abuse.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you can't teach children that there are boundaries without resorting to striking them, you need therapy, plain and simple. There are a multitude of ways to show displeasure. When was the last time you turned to one of your friends and punched their lights out because they crossed one of your boundaries? That's the relative equivalent, considering the child hasn't a prayer of fighting back.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rellanor:
Daz sorry to burst your bubble but Ashiwi and alot of other people myself included have been abused in a violent way and you don't posses the omnipotent knowledge to know what is true and what isn't. Ashiwi made good points so maybe you should learn to respect differing points of view rather than cursing and ridiculing them.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm betting he was responding to Corth's snide comment, actually.
Daz sorry to burst your bubble but Ashiwi and alot of other people myself included have been abused in a violent way and you don't posses the omnipotent knowledge to know what is true and what isn't. Ashiwi made good points so maybe you should learn to respect differing points of view rather than cursing and ridiculing them.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm betting he was responding to Corth's snide comment, actually.
Right on Iyachtu. I was "spanked" when I was younger. And I didn't walk away with the attitude "I deserved that". Neither did I have that attitude days later. I still don't now. No,I don't have that attitude "I was perfect". But what I had on my mind was "Man you're going to WISH I wasn't your kid."
Then yeah I'll get spanked again it'll hurt awhile blah blah blah.
You want your kid to love you enough that it makes him feel bad,that you're disapointed in him. Then,he will do his best to please you,and if given enough praise,not want to disapoint you again.
If you "spank" your kid,he won't care if you like him or not,he's going to hate you. Maybe when he's all grown up,he'll understand.
Enough with the "my dad slit my throat with a butcher knife" and "shot me in the head"
And ya'll don't understand what it's like. Come 'on if you really didn't want the attention then please stop crying. We've all had our fair share of abuse in life.
------------------
Peachy.
Then yeah I'll get spanked again it'll hurt awhile blah blah blah.
You want your kid to love you enough that it makes him feel bad,that you're disapointed in him. Then,he will do his best to please you,and if given enough praise,not want to disapoint you again.
If you "spank" your kid,he won't care if you like him or not,he's going to hate you. Maybe when he's all grown up,he'll understand.
Enough with the "my dad slit my throat with a butcher knife" and "shot me in the head"
And ya'll don't understand what it's like. Come 'on if you really didn't want the attention then please stop crying. We've all had our fair share of abuse in life.
------------------
Peachy.
I have to wonder what either side of this argument is attempting to accomplish.
If the nature vs. nurture argument could be conclusively proven one way or the other, it would have been done so by now, don't you think?
But then, this argument, too, is inevitable.
------------------
malo mori quam foedari: I would rather consent Mori than suffer dishonor.
If the nature vs. nurture argument could be conclusively proven one way or the other, it would have been done so by now, don't you think?
But then, this argument, too, is inevitable.
------------------
malo mori quam foedari: I would rather consent Mori than suffer dishonor.
It can't be decided one way or the other because the answer is a combination of the two, plain and simple. There isn't a shred of evidence on either side that you can ever predict behavior based on ONLY one or the other. Aspects of behavior, or tendencies, or dominant traits sure. But you can't point to anything on the human gene and say "that gene will cause this person to become a (blank)". Nor can you conclusively state "spanking causes violence".
Corrolation vs. causation. Psychology is a science of corrolation... it's worth saying "We've noticed that 77% of axe murderers were spanked as a kid" (made up figure!) but that neither means you can predict an axe murderer by how his parents punished him, nor can you say that physical punishment CAUSES violent tendencies. All you can say is that the two are corrolated, though you can't tell how.
Lots of people are tricked into believing stacked statistics because they can't distinguish between a simple corrolation and one thing causing another.
------------------
- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
Corrolation vs. causation. Psychology is a science of corrolation... it's worth saying "We've noticed that 77% of axe murderers were spanked as a kid" (made up figure!) but that neither means you can predict an axe murderer by how his parents punished him, nor can you say that physical punishment CAUSES violent tendencies. All you can say is that the two are corrolated, though you can't tell how.
Lots of people are tricked into believing stacked statistics because they can't distinguish between a simple corrolation and one thing causing another.
------------------
- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
-
- Sojourner
- Posts: 967
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>It can't be decided one way or the other because the answer is a combination of the two, plain and simple. There isn't a shred of evidence on either side that you can ever predict behavior based on ONLY one or the other. Aspects of behavior, or tendencies, or dominant traits sure. But you can't point to anything on the human gene and say "that gene will cause this person to become a (blank)". Nor can you conclusively state "spanking causes violence".
Corrolation vs. causation. Psychology is a science of corrolation... it's worth saying "We've noticed that 77% of axe murderers were spanked as a kid" (made up figure!) but that neither means you can predict an axe murderer by how his parents punished him, nor can you say that physical punishment CAUSES violent tendencies. All you can say is that the two are corrolated, though you can't tell how.
Lots of people are tricked into believing stacked statistics because they can't distinguish between a simple corrolation and one thing causing another.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah, what he said. Plus people are easily fooled/mystified by sciency stuff. Hell, you could tell people that there's a gene for any old random affliction and they'd probably believe it. But the fact of the matter is that one gene codes one polypeptide. One polypeptide is not going to make you antisocial.
I personally think that we are more than a sum of our genes and our environments. As human beings, we have the ability to reason and think. Self-fulfilling prophecies are one nice example of this sorta thing.
- Grungar "Sleep is good" Forgefire
<B>It can't be decided one way or the other because the answer is a combination of the two, plain and simple. There isn't a shred of evidence on either side that you can ever predict behavior based on ONLY one or the other. Aspects of behavior, or tendencies, or dominant traits sure. But you can't point to anything on the human gene and say "that gene will cause this person to become a (blank)". Nor can you conclusively state "spanking causes violence".
Corrolation vs. causation. Psychology is a science of corrolation... it's worth saying "We've noticed that 77% of axe murderers were spanked as a kid" (made up figure!) but that neither means you can predict an axe murderer by how his parents punished him, nor can you say that physical punishment CAUSES violent tendencies. All you can say is that the two are corrolated, though you can't tell how.
Lots of people are tricked into believing stacked statistics because they can't distinguish between a simple corrolation and one thing causing another.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah, what he said. Plus people are easily fooled/mystified by sciency stuff. Hell, you could tell people that there's a gene for any old random affliction and they'd probably believe it. But the fact of the matter is that one gene codes one polypeptide. One polypeptide is not going to make you antisocial.
I personally think that we are more than a sum of our genes and our environments. As human beings, we have the ability to reason and think. Self-fulfilling prophecies are one nice example of this sorta thing.
- Grungar "Sleep is good" Forgefire
Accountability for one's actions.
We being the supposed sentient beings we claim to be need to be accountable for our actions (or lack thereof).
Accountability is a rare thing in this world, as is honor, and honesty. Sympathy and empathy are becoming endangered species, and common sense is the least common thing I know off the top of my head.
With the bankrupcies of Enron, and coming of Worldcom, and possibly Qwest, I'm reminded of Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged, and wish there was a place for those who really got things done, were honorable, and accountable.
Perhaps there is, her's was in Colorado, I'll have to do more 4wheeling and see if I can find that one.... if not, perhaps recruit others who at least try to live by these values and buy an island one day.
We have self determination, we just have to be strong enough inside to work daily for it. Yes, ugly, sometimes horific things happen in our lives, but those days/weeks/months/years just make the achievement of said goals that much sweeter.
Oh, and I thought Ashiwi's post was well thought out, and simply stated her viewpoint with some corroborating personal experience.
Toplack Frostbear
P.S.
Please make replies, if not on topic, refer to the content of the post, not the person posting it. If you don't agree, fine, but flaming destroys any credibility you may have in the eyes of the readers.
Thank you, Please drive through.
------------------
We being the supposed sentient beings we claim to be need to be accountable for our actions (or lack thereof).
Accountability is a rare thing in this world, as is honor, and honesty. Sympathy and empathy are becoming endangered species, and common sense is the least common thing I know off the top of my head.
With the bankrupcies of Enron, and coming of Worldcom, and possibly Qwest, I'm reminded of Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged, and wish there was a place for those who really got things done, were honorable, and accountable.
Perhaps there is, her's was in Colorado, I'll have to do more 4wheeling and see if I can find that one.... if not, perhaps recruit others who at least try to live by these values and buy an island one day.
We have self determination, we just have to be strong enough inside to work daily for it. Yes, ugly, sometimes horific things happen in our lives, but those days/weeks/months/years just make the achievement of said goals that much sweeter.
Oh, and I thought Ashiwi's post was well thought out, and simply stated her viewpoint with some corroborating personal experience.
Toplack Frostbear
P.S.
Please make replies, if not on topic, refer to the content of the post, not the person posting it. If you don't agree, fine, but flaming destroys any credibility you may have in the eyes of the readers.
Thank you, Please drive through.
------------------
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B>kiss my ass ashiwi. you have no clue what you are talking about. circumstances that apply to you have jack shit meaning to people who are not you.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
this was what I was reffering to I think Daz proved my point about his self appointed omnipotent wisdom.
<B>kiss my ass ashiwi. you have no clue what you are talking about. circumstances that apply to you have jack shit meaning to people who are not you.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
this was what I was reffering to I think Daz proved my point about his self appointed omnipotent wisdom.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>I agree, spanking is not child abuse.
*snip*
Spanking is a very effective short-term way to prevent negative behavior. But kids react differently to it...
*snip*
There's nothing wrong with spanking, and there are no studies that have conclusively showed that RESPONSIBLE spanking leads to violence later in life. I was spanked, and I will spank my kids.
The golden rule of spanking is: NEVER spank your kid if you're angry. Parents who take their frustrations out by spanking their kids are usually the ones who do it incorrectly.
*snip*
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
so basicly what youre telling us is that spanking is good as long as it works... ahh well, everything that works sure is good, but we know from several studies that spanked children are highly overrepresented among the children that are bullies. this would mean that the parents spanking their children are one part of the causation that leads to the bullying thats going on among children. *this alone would be a reason not to spank your children*. as an adult in general, and certainly as a parent, you are allways in a position of power towards your child, that is, it is possible to use means other than physical to correct childrens behaviour. try _talking_ to your child if he/she is out of line. imho if you lack communicative skills with children you should not have children.
personaly: if any adult slaps my child id beat the crap outa him, physical violence can teach *adults* to keep away...:/
/fil
<B>I agree, spanking is not child abuse.
*snip*
Spanking is a very effective short-term way to prevent negative behavior. But kids react differently to it...
*snip*
There's nothing wrong with spanking, and there are no studies that have conclusively showed that RESPONSIBLE spanking leads to violence later in life. I was spanked, and I will spank my kids.
The golden rule of spanking is: NEVER spank your kid if you're angry. Parents who take their frustrations out by spanking their kids are usually the ones who do it incorrectly.
*snip*
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
so basicly what youre telling us is that spanking is good as long as it works... ahh well, everything that works sure is good, but we know from several studies that spanked children are highly overrepresented among the children that are bullies. this would mean that the parents spanking their children are one part of the causation that leads to the bullying thats going on among children. *this alone would be a reason not to spank your children*. as an adult in general, and certainly as a parent, you are allways in a position of power towards your child, that is, it is possible to use means other than physical to correct childrens behaviour. try _talking_ to your child if he/she is out of line. imho if you lack communicative skills with children you should not have children.
personaly: if any adult slaps my child id beat the crap outa him, physical violence can teach *adults* to keep away...:/
/fil
Spanking ... Can be defined so many ways ...
A parent can tap their toddler on the hand and others consider that great abuse ...
Other people snatch their child up by their arm and drag them off screaming and not think that is bad ...
I used to pop my kid's butts when they wronged til i realized I was using that discipline FIRST rather than as a last resort .. then I started talking to them ... making them understand why what they did was wrong rather than screaming and hollering ...
Now don't get me wrong I am NOT the type of parent that does the *now sweetheart* thing .. (anyone ever seen the bill cosby comedy special with "Jeffrey?")
my kids are very well behaved because they dont want to screw up and dissapoint ME ... My kids were the kind of kids to walk quietly beside me in stores, not run off screaming like banshees ... they were little kids that sat at the table til they were excused at dinner time .. and not since they were toddlers have they had a single hand raised to them
Abuse:
whether it be mental or physical .. can be overcome .. and I personally am not one that lives in the past (yes *I* was abused too and any 9 year old girl that was abused like i was has the right to speak here)... what happened to me happened ... it is over ... you HAVE to get over it ... you have to move on ... to blame your parents or whoever abused you .. for the person you are now is bullshit ..they were SICK ..are you?? (my mommy beat me so im a bad person now, i was abused so i have the right to be a total asshole to anyone).. YOU are who YOU are because you CHOSE to be that way ... face it .. children who were abused are MORE LIKELY to be abusers themselves ... so get yourself out of the pattern .. grow up .. get a life ...
man is this why i am going to be a counsellor when i grow up and get done playing Navy?? (typically children who were abused become counsellors too...just liek drug addicts or alcoholics tend to be rehab counselrors))
this rant was NOT directed at ANYONE i think i was just venting some
thanks for listening
move along, nothing new here .. please drive through ..
-Jennifer
A parent can tap their toddler on the hand and others consider that great abuse ...
Other people snatch their child up by their arm and drag them off screaming and not think that is bad ...
I used to pop my kid's butts when they wronged til i realized I was using that discipline FIRST rather than as a last resort .. then I started talking to them ... making them understand why what they did was wrong rather than screaming and hollering ...
Now don't get me wrong I am NOT the type of parent that does the *now sweetheart* thing .. (anyone ever seen the bill cosby comedy special with "Jeffrey?")
my kids are very well behaved because they dont want to screw up and dissapoint ME ... My kids were the kind of kids to walk quietly beside me in stores, not run off screaming like banshees ... they were little kids that sat at the table til they were excused at dinner time .. and not since they were toddlers have they had a single hand raised to them
Abuse:
whether it be mental or physical .. can be overcome .. and I personally am not one that lives in the past (yes *I* was abused too and any 9 year old girl that was abused like i was has the right to speak here)... what happened to me happened ... it is over ... you HAVE to get over it ... you have to move on ... to blame your parents or whoever abused you .. for the person you are now is bullshit ..they were SICK ..are you?? (my mommy beat me so im a bad person now, i was abused so i have the right to be a total asshole to anyone).. YOU are who YOU are because you CHOSE to be that way ... face it .. children who were abused are MORE LIKELY to be abusers themselves ... so get yourself out of the pattern .. grow up .. get a life ...
man is this why i am going to be a counsellor when i grow up and get done playing Navy?? (typically children who were abused become counsellors too...just liek drug addicts or alcoholics tend to be rehab counselrors))
this rant was NOT directed at ANYONE i think i was just venting some
thanks for listening
move along, nothing new here .. please drive through ..
-Jennifer
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by fildur:
so basicly what youre telling us is that spanking is good as long as it works... </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually I'm telling you how to make spanking effective punishment as opposed to child abuse. If you want your kid to live in fear of you, then smack him at random times in the grocery store for talking too loudly. Or maybe lock him in a room all day until "daddy gets home" so he can have his real punishment. Those are both perfectly legitimate ways to completely ruin all of the reinforcement aspects of spanking.
Perfect example of corrolation vs. causation. There's no evidence that one causes the other, simply that there is a corrolation. Maybe spanking causes kids to become bullies, or maybe children who have the bully temperment from an early age provoke their parents into hitting them. Studies point both ways, nobody has come up with conclusive evidence that spanking causes violence, period. One study or a handful don't provide any real evidence, especially when just as many studies provide evidence to the contrary.
<B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">personaly: if any adult slaps my child id beat the crap outa him, physical violence can teach *adults* to keep away...:/
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I wonder what spawned THIS attitude
------------------
- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
so basicly what youre telling us is that spanking is good as long as it works... </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually I'm telling you how to make spanking effective punishment as opposed to child abuse. If you want your kid to live in fear of you, then smack him at random times in the grocery store for talking too loudly. Or maybe lock him in a room all day until "daddy gets home" so he can have his real punishment. Those are both perfectly legitimate ways to completely ruin all of the reinforcement aspects of spanking.
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">ahh well, everything that works sure is good, but we know from several studies that spanked children are highly overrepresented among the children that are bullies. this would mean that the parents spanking their children are one part of the causation that leads to the bullying thats going on among children.</font>
Perfect example of corrolation vs. causation. There's no evidence that one causes the other, simply that there is a corrolation. Maybe spanking causes kids to become bullies, or maybe children who have the bully temperment from an early age provoke their parents into hitting them. Studies point both ways, nobody has come up with conclusive evidence that spanking causes violence, period. One study or a handful don't provide any real evidence, especially when just as many studies provide evidence to the contrary.
<B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">personaly: if any adult slaps my child id beat the crap outa him, physical violence can teach *adults* to keep away...:/
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I wonder what spawned THIS attitude
------------------
- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
I was spanked as a child. My brother is spanked. My parents were spanked, their parents were spanked, etc, etc, etc. My family must then be the exception to the ideas that "spanking is bad and promotes violence". We all turned out just fine.
Again, as I said above.
Spanking is not violence. Beating the hell outta your kid is violence.
I will agree that some children need different methods of discipline than others. But to say spanking is bad all around shows just how much people really don't know.
And I'm sorry Iyachtu, decking a friend for pissing you off and disciplining your children are no where near relative equivalents of each other. Not even close. Besides, who in this thread as said at any time that "punching their lights out" was the same as spanking?
For those of you who don't know, this is how my parents spanked me.
I f***ed up major. Dad and mom send me to my room. They talk about punishment, what I deserve. I had three levels, off with a warning, restriction from playing outside for a few days, or a good old-fashioned spanking. Sometimes they would even let me choose between restriction and whipping. I usually took the whipping because 30 seconds of pain on my rump wasn't worth 2 days of being free outside.
Anyways, the actual spanking would be with my dads wide leather belt, 2 to 3 stinging strokes across the backside. Never drew blood, or did any damage. Just turned my butt red for an hour or so. Hell, when I was younger, sure, I'd cry, but mainly because I was in trouble, not because it hurt. They never laid into me hardcore. Never did any damage to me.
They never punched my lights out, beat me repeatedly, kicked me, slapped me, or did anything else that was violent and damaging to me.
It's all in HOW you do it.
------------------
Again, as I said above.
Spanking is not violence. Beating the hell outta your kid is violence.
I will agree that some children need different methods of discipline than others. But to say spanking is bad all around shows just how much people really don't know.
And I'm sorry Iyachtu, decking a friend for pissing you off and disciplining your children are no where near relative equivalents of each other. Not even close. Besides, who in this thread as said at any time that "punching their lights out" was the same as spanking?
For those of you who don't know, this is how my parents spanked me.
I f***ed up major. Dad and mom send me to my room. They talk about punishment, what I deserve. I had three levels, off with a warning, restriction from playing outside for a few days, or a good old-fashioned spanking. Sometimes they would even let me choose between restriction and whipping. I usually took the whipping because 30 seconds of pain on my rump wasn't worth 2 days of being free outside.
Anyways, the actual spanking would be with my dads wide leather belt, 2 to 3 stinging strokes across the backside. Never drew blood, or did any damage. Just turned my butt red for an hour or so. Hell, when I was younger, sure, I'd cry, but mainly because I was in trouble, not because it hurt. They never laid into me hardcore. Never did any damage to me.
They never punched my lights out, beat me repeatedly, kicked me, slapped me, or did anything else that was violent and damaging to me.
It's all in HOW you do it.
------------------
I've thought a lot about child abuse. I look at my family and wonder how they can just not see what they do, and have come to the conclusion that they're not ready to see it. As very small kids they saw it from everyone in their clan. Defiance is 'just cause' to get hit, and when you're so small one little backhand knocks you to the ground and leaves your head spinning, you at least act like it's normal. Pretending that insanity is normal, often enough it becomes reality.
I had admired my teachers because they were strict and didn't hit me or belittle me. Of course, back then they couldn't really help me because laws were different then, but I saw when they reached the point that they couldn't help me anymore, saw their eyes no longer actually look at me, and although it hurt a lot then, I know why it happened now.
At the school my son will be attending, there's a strong emphasis of respect for the students and each other. The kids will have access to a full-time social worker to help them figure out the 'right way' to deal with what they feel, instead of what they were taught. Violence means suspension, even for the kindergarten kids. I hope it applies for verbal abuse as well.
How do adults decide that the right way to deal with an unruly child is to hit them, to stand in their face and scream, to threaten to kill yourself because they're so horrible, to turn away when another abuses them? I guess that it's what they were taught and they haven't questioned it, because once you start looking, you have to wonder about that time your cousin got kicked in the back of the head while outside colouring, because she didn't make the bed. For too many people, it's too much to look at, so they don't.
As for this genetic testing - from what I know genetic testing is expensive, so it won't be commonplace. I can't imagine someone proposing to give a drug to kids with this gene and not causing an uproar - like what happened here - more likely they'd get counselling so they can understand that abuse is wrong before it's decades of abuse. Maybe some of the clients will be targeted for medication, if nothing else seems to be working, or for a short term boost to the therapy. But I don't believe the pharmaceutical companies are eagerly looking forward to the next 'Ritalin will solve every problem' trend which makes people hesitant to use it where it's actually of benefit.
Daz? Thanks, luv, for showing us that for some people it's a lot harder to shake off the past and a lot easier to make things worse. Maybe those of us who got through it are mutants.
I had admired my teachers because they were strict and didn't hit me or belittle me. Of course, back then they couldn't really help me because laws were different then, but I saw when they reached the point that they couldn't help me anymore, saw their eyes no longer actually look at me, and although it hurt a lot then, I know why it happened now.
At the school my son will be attending, there's a strong emphasis of respect for the students and each other. The kids will have access to a full-time social worker to help them figure out the 'right way' to deal with what they feel, instead of what they were taught. Violence means suspension, even for the kindergarten kids. I hope it applies for verbal abuse as well.
How do adults decide that the right way to deal with an unruly child is to hit them, to stand in their face and scream, to threaten to kill yourself because they're so horrible, to turn away when another abuses them? I guess that it's what they were taught and they haven't questioned it, because once you start looking, you have to wonder about that time your cousin got kicked in the back of the head while outside colouring, because she didn't make the bed. For too many people, it's too much to look at, so they don't.
As for this genetic testing - from what I know genetic testing is expensive, so it won't be commonplace. I can't imagine someone proposing to give a drug to kids with this gene and not causing an uproar - like what happened here - more likely they'd get counselling so they can understand that abuse is wrong before it's decades of abuse. Maybe some of the clients will be targeted for medication, if nothing else seems to be working, or for a short term boost to the therapy. But I don't believe the pharmaceutical companies are eagerly looking forward to the next 'Ritalin will solve every problem' trend which makes people hesitant to use it where it's actually of benefit.
Daz? Thanks, luv, for showing us that for some people it's a lot harder to shake off the past and a lot easier to make things worse. Maybe those of us who got through it are mutants.
I remember in my Marriage & Families class. The professor spoke about raising kids. If a parent lets their kid run wild, dont discipline them, spoils them... how does that effect you, if the child is not as well adjusted is it wrong?
This was very profound to me, because I assume there was a right way and a wrong way to raise kids. I believed that if a child is not well adjusted, then the parents did not do a good job in raising their kids. If you spoil your kid, if you dont discipline, etc. People raise their kids differently and should not be force to conform to a "right" way.
Please understand abuse is wrong; however, abuse need to be define. The issue of spanking is a gray area because spanking is also define differently. I have not given much thought into the differences between physical, sexual, emotional and mental abuse. I believe they are different and we need guidelines to help us understand what is abuse, culture, and parenting styles.
To those who were abused and were willing to make themself vulnerable to the rest of the mud world, I personally have learn something new from your experiences. If you use your abuse to seek attention, I am sure you process better quality that deserve our attention their your scarred childhood.
To those who deny abuse happens or punish the victim *sigh* I understand we all have our own issues, but does lending a ear, shoulder, etc cost us so much? I was raise to believe that God was willing to give his son for my life. If I believe this and not willing to give up a little of myself to foster the healing of another, how much of that message was lost.
Sok
[This message has been edited by sok (edited 08-07-2002).]
[This message has been edited by sok (edited 08-07-2002).]
This was very profound to me, because I assume there was a right way and a wrong way to raise kids. I believed that if a child is not well adjusted, then the parents did not do a good job in raising their kids. If you spoil your kid, if you dont discipline, etc. People raise their kids differently and should not be force to conform to a "right" way.
Please understand abuse is wrong; however, abuse need to be define. The issue of spanking is a gray area because spanking is also define differently. I have not given much thought into the differences between physical, sexual, emotional and mental abuse. I believe they are different and we need guidelines to help us understand what is abuse, culture, and parenting styles.
To those who were abused and were willing to make themself vulnerable to the rest of the mud world, I personally have learn something new from your experiences. If you use your abuse to seek attention, I am sure you process better quality that deserve our attention their your scarred childhood.
To those who deny abuse happens or punish the victim *sigh* I understand we all have our own issues, but does lending a ear, shoulder, etc cost us so much? I was raise to believe that God was willing to give his son for my life. If I believe this and not willing to give up a little of myself to foster the healing of another, how much of that message was lost.
Sok
[This message has been edited by sok (edited 08-07-2002).]
[This message has been edited by sok (edited 08-07-2002).]
My parents were very responsible about spanking me. If I was caught doing something I shouldn't be doing, my dad counted loudly and slowly to 3. If he reached 3 and I hadn't stopped and apologized for what I was doing, he'd swat me on the butt. Never more than 3 spanks, never on the bare butt, never with a belt or switch or anything that would leave marks. But I learned... boy did I learn. The word "TWO!" was the most dreaded word of my childhood vocabulary.
When I turned 11 or 12, my parents found other ways to discipline me. They tried grounding, which was pretty ineffective since I was the kid who preferred to sit and read or play Nintendo to going outside anyway. They tried MAKING me go outside for a while They settled on mandatory homework time for a little bit, and some other stuff. I look back, now that I know the real factors behind motivation and reinforcement, and I think my parents did an above-average job of disciplining me.
I'm most impressed because my dad's father was an alcoholic emphyzemic. He was a rampaging drunk, knocked my dad around when he was a kid, liked to wave a loaded shotgun around the house when he was pissed, that kind of thing. Thankfully he died before I was born, I never had to endure childhood visits to his house. So I'm genuinely impressed my dad was able to come from that background and still raise me without drinking or beating the shit out of me. We've got our other problems, but at least there was never any physical abuse.
Yeah, child abuse happens. It happens a lot. Some parents believe their kids are their property. Some parents see their kids as an obstacle in their life... a restriction, something that needs to be taken care of before they can have their fun. Often, it's attitudes like these which plant the seeds for negligence and abuse.
And often (and here is your corrolation), it's the years of abuse and neglect from parents like these which turn their kids into deviants. It's not so much the spanking, but the total environment.
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- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
When I turned 11 or 12, my parents found other ways to discipline me. They tried grounding, which was pretty ineffective since I was the kid who preferred to sit and read or play Nintendo to going outside anyway. They tried MAKING me go outside for a while They settled on mandatory homework time for a little bit, and some other stuff. I look back, now that I know the real factors behind motivation and reinforcement, and I think my parents did an above-average job of disciplining me.
I'm most impressed because my dad's father was an alcoholic emphyzemic. He was a rampaging drunk, knocked my dad around when he was a kid, liked to wave a loaded shotgun around the house when he was pissed, that kind of thing. Thankfully he died before I was born, I never had to endure childhood visits to his house. So I'm genuinely impressed my dad was able to come from that background and still raise me without drinking or beating the shit out of me. We've got our other problems, but at least there was never any physical abuse.
Yeah, child abuse happens. It happens a lot. Some parents believe their kids are their property. Some parents see their kids as an obstacle in their life... a restriction, something that needs to be taken care of before they can have their fun. Often, it's attitudes like these which plant the seeds for negligence and abuse.
And often (and here is your corrolation), it's the years of abuse and neglect from parents like these which turn their kids into deviants. It's not so much the spanking, but the total environment.
------------------
- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
not having a mother or father, the people i spent time with beat the hell out of me pretty much for no reason, and to this day i shun contact, and when a friend plays a joke on me - my first instinct is to raise my fist.
im not telling you this to get attention, not one of you here matter enough to me for your feelings toward me to do anything but piss me off at being misunderstood.
i feel that what happened to me as a child has seriously affected me as an adult. the only morals i have were learned from my grandmother, who - raised 10 kids, then raised me - on a single income as a lunch lady at the local school until she retired at 57 years with the school. i respect my elders, i am polite, i open doors for people, i realize that an allowance is by no means a right, i take care of things, i clean up after myself, i say sir and ma'am.
i see kids run around in the streets these days, badmouthing the elderly, abusing their parents, doing drugs to be cool, they are dirty, disrespectful, and if my child was like that - i sure as hell would beat his ass, and make it worse.
what i spend time thinking about is how to instill in my children the values that were beaten in to me, without beating them. since i was 14 years old i have studied and contemplated how i would raise a child. my kid(s) will be punished, but never without explanation. they may get spanked, but never for mistakes. i will never force my kids to do things they think or feel are wrong. no curfews, no rules against profanity. if i can't make my child understand how to respect rules and laws without hitting him, then fuck it. i don't deserve a good kid. i'll let the kid fuck up his life and watch him grow to regret it.
i am rambling because i slept for 1 hour last night after reformatting 2 of my computers and installing 3 different operating systems while comforting a friend who broke up with her boyfriend of a year, and play diablo at the same time. i dont know what im saying.
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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
im not telling you this to get attention, not one of you here matter enough to me for your feelings toward me to do anything but piss me off at being misunderstood.
i feel that what happened to me as a child has seriously affected me as an adult. the only morals i have were learned from my grandmother, who - raised 10 kids, then raised me - on a single income as a lunch lady at the local school until she retired at 57 years with the school. i respect my elders, i am polite, i open doors for people, i realize that an allowance is by no means a right, i take care of things, i clean up after myself, i say sir and ma'am.
i see kids run around in the streets these days, badmouthing the elderly, abusing their parents, doing drugs to be cool, they are dirty, disrespectful, and if my child was like that - i sure as hell would beat his ass, and make it worse.
what i spend time thinking about is how to instill in my children the values that were beaten in to me, without beating them. since i was 14 years old i have studied and contemplated how i would raise a child. my kid(s) will be punished, but never without explanation. they may get spanked, but never for mistakes. i will never force my kids to do things they think or feel are wrong. no curfews, no rules against profanity. if i can't make my child understand how to respect rules and laws without hitting him, then fuck it. i don't deserve a good kid. i'll let the kid fuck up his life and watch him grow to regret it.
i am rambling because i slept for 1 hour last night after reformatting 2 of my computers and installing 3 different operating systems while comforting a friend who broke up with her boyfriend of a year, and play diablo at the same time. i dont know what im saying.
------------------
-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
one of you statistic loving people...
how many harden criminals where spanked?
how many mass murderers where spanked?
etc etc...
how many where abused?
how many where neglected?
how many didnt know their parents?
how many foster homes?
an uncle of mine told me something that i believe is soo true and i firmly believe it.....
"everyone should have their ass beat atleast once in their life"
no this doesnt have to be put in the hospital beat.. broken bones beat.. just beat in that you learn humility etc take it how you want
shrugs
i was spanked as a child not abused, but have had close friends that where, and other close friends that wherent disciplened at all...i have observed alot in my life, having dealt with children threw youth grous alot...
what i have observed is in GENERAL....
children spanked *not abused* behaved better than those who were abused or naglected/ignored whutever u want to call it..
children w/o spankings but discipline road the line between good kids and buttholes, spoiled rotten...
those abused/naglected also road a line, shy and fragile, and mean and hatefull
shrugs i will talk to you more in game if you want, dont think i want to post here anymore to easy to become a flame war :P
how many harden criminals where spanked?
how many mass murderers where spanked?
etc etc...
how many where abused?
how many where neglected?
how many didnt know their parents?
how many foster homes?
an uncle of mine told me something that i believe is soo true and i firmly believe it.....
"everyone should have their ass beat atleast once in their life"
no this doesnt have to be put in the hospital beat.. broken bones beat.. just beat in that you learn humility etc take it how you want
shrugs
i was spanked as a child not abused, but have had close friends that where, and other close friends that wherent disciplened at all...i have observed alot in my life, having dealt with children threw youth grous alot...
what i have observed is in GENERAL....
children spanked *not abused* behaved better than those who were abused or naglected/ignored whutever u want to call it..
children w/o spankings but discipline road the line between good kids and buttholes, spoiled rotten...
those abused/naglected also road a line, shy and fragile, and mean and hatefull
shrugs i will talk to you more in game if you want, dont think i want to post here anymore to easy to become a flame war :P
Nonds, nods the ONE, TWO, THREE thing worked for me too ... maybe thats why my kids were so good?? I knew parents who told me .. that doesnt work .. it cant work .. SURE it can! If you follow through with it .. and on that small chance they get beyond three, they get a spanking ..
Above all you need to teach kids continuity ... don't beat the shit out of them or scream at them today for leaving their jacket on the floor ... if for the last week you have allowed it .. be consistent ... and be fair! Remember we are all humans .. we make mistakes! Teach them how to think things through BEFORE they act out ..
hell i don't know .. just dont beat them! (yes spanking is ok ONCE ina while not every day!)
Daz, I guess we see the side of you that is allwoed to run rampant and we dislike it. If you show us those same common courtesies you show people in REAL LIFE(god those words scare me) we will treat you all the better and respect you more for it. I applaud you for trying to put yourself above how you were treated .. nothing i hate more than people saying it happend to me so let it happen to others ...
Everyone needs a Momma Jen hug!!!
Above all you need to teach kids continuity ... don't beat the shit out of them or scream at them today for leaving their jacket on the floor ... if for the last week you have allowed it .. be consistent ... and be fair! Remember we are all humans .. we make mistakes! Teach them how to think things through BEFORE they act out ..
hell i don't know .. just dont beat them! (yes spanking is ok ONCE ina while not every day!)
Daz, I guess we see the side of you that is allwoed to run rampant and we dislike it. If you show us those same common courtesies you show people in REAL LIFE(god those words scare me) we will treat you all the better and respect you more for it. I applaud you for trying to put yourself above how you were treated .. nothing i hate more than people saying it happend to me so let it happen to others ...
Everyone needs a Momma Jen hug!!!
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