Zone done, time for the leaders headaches...

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
Zajan / Myre
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Zone done, time for the leaders headaches...

Postby Zajan / Myre » Mon Mar 12, 2001 9:32 pm

Okay to open an OLD can of worms.. or i guess in this setting it may be more appropriate to say "wurms".

There were several reasons why I switched from Myre to Zajan when the drow first went in... some of them were well thought others were simply a false hope. However, there is one difference that I almost always held the standard of.. and one that I personally liked a LOT...

Toril had the ability to get 15-50 friends together to go an conquer everything from splitshield to Tiamat. However, the same thing always happened (At least while I was playing a "goodie") after the raid. The same 15-50 friends would all the sudden spam the living hell out of the group leader for stats on items and "What can I bid on?" or even worse yet "Why did HE get that item?" or "Hook me up, you know we're friends."

The standard I personally liked a LOT from the "evils" was that items were handed out based on the group leaders "common sense" choices. Often, I was the group leader in both good and evil form. I can tell you from having been on both sides that there are people that liked and disliked both the bidding and the hand out methods. I never once saw people ripping out each others throats after a split was completed in a "hand out" method... Sure i'll admit I made my share of mistakes and I got my head bit off a few times for my choices.. (Namely giving a 2nd broadsword of dancing shadows to Dizzin before I gave Zoldren's warrior his first. hehe but i'd venture to bet my buddy Zoldren forgives me). I also had an ongoing permenant list of who got what on the raids I lead. I never once let someone go more than 2-3 raids without getting a major item of choice from the loot pile.

I would like to hear some of the other players opinions on both styles of splitting.. I have prided myself on becoming more open minded over the past couple years and would like to hear the input from people who played with me.. people who didn't.. and people who observed other peoples split sytles..

(Please take into account that the "hand out" method is for normal raids.. We were never so ignorant as to take 50 people to Tiamat.. hand out 6 items to people and thank the other 44 people for comming with no warning of what was to happen... there are times I know when bidding is always most appropriate.)

Zajan/Myre
(Of all the things i've lost in life, I miss my mind the most...)
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Postby belleshel » Mon Mar 12, 2001 10:15 pm

Simple solution, don't bring whiners Image.
True some situations demand it (damn he's the only cleric online with fh)... But instead of keeping track who got what gear, remember who made the zone fun, and who made it a headache, next time use that knowledge when doing zone invites. Personally I always liked dicing in that its is fair and if the leader sets up any bid-restrictions before the zone, you have no business arguing a split under those conditions, and if someone does, keep that in mind next time.
This doesn't work all the time based on lack of high levels in certain classes, but helps reduce the headache Image
Just a thought,
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Postby Zoldren » Mon Mar 12, 2001 10:35 pm

ROAR I forgot about sword! ugg you die!!... see how much I cared? I forgot haha you be forgivin heh
I like the leader hands out to the highest that needs the most... in that situation "normaly" for evils they would hand down the item that it replaced to someone else in the group who needed it... thats another reason "evils" didnt whine to much.. because everyone normaly got something.. even if it was something silly like a pile of dung people were just happy to zone for the most part.. I know I was...

Zoldren/Uagr
whats inferno?
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Postby Fezbozz » Tue Mar 13, 2001 1:02 am

I don't think I was ever in a group lead by you Zajan but I was in groups with ya. I like the hand out method better by far. I think people sometimes still feel like they get left out a bit but for the most part if the person has some patience they know it will come to them eventualy. I think the bid method is crap. I lost a several bids to people that already had the item being bid on mostly that was back in the days of Toril. I think in some cases bidding is valid but only in special zones that arn't done every boot. I think maybe the bid and hand down method could also work. The times I lost the bid the guy who won kept his old stuff as well. I think the whole getting stuff for your alt with another character isn't right either. Its almost like a person that didn't do the zone gets included in the split. I think its fine if no one in the group needs the item but I have been in groups that several people needed the item and it went to someone who wanted it for their alt. I know its impossible to make ever one happy but really I think its the group leaders perogative. They lead the zone which can be a pain anyway so I think people should just live with the leaders choice. I know I have been a little ticked a couple times but since I went evil its not really happened. If the leader splits EQ unfairly they will soon find themself lacking group members after a time.
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Postby santego » Tue Mar 13, 2001 1:19 am

I remember in my groups that everyone was HAPPY that so-&-so got something. We'd be like, "way to go zortan! cool ring!" or whatever. My most recent experiences have been in Evil groups. Generally, we (I?) looked at it this way: Zortan's new ring will help Zortan be more powerful, helping everyone, and quite possibly keep him out of the next bid so I can get something (heh). Bidding was what you did if everyone who wanted the item already had one, or wanted the item for an alt.
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Postby Wobb » Tue Mar 13, 2001 1:31 am

I'll (try to) make this short.

Quick Response:
Bidding sucks, group leader handout good. Any eq already spoken for BEFORE zone is begun should be told to all involved.

Detailed Response:

1. Bidding: Everyone has lost a bid to someone who didn't need the item, while you did. Bidding equality is difficult. I have yet to see a truly "fair" bidding method.
1A. Bid Method: Picking numbers 1-100 and leader dicing at home. This method obviously has room for major cheating.
1B. Bid Method: Picking numbers 1-100 and using pets. This method is fun, and was my favorite as Vurad. But even I have to admit that people too often got items they didn't need or deserve. Vurad won a flmaberge with this method (vurad was a cleric for those that don't know). Not to mention, there did seem a serious majority of numbers around 33 and 66. Something in the Randomizer was definately not so random.
1C. Bid method: Picking numbers 1-100 and using mud dice. This was by far the most fair bid method, in that the numbers should have been truly random, but even I saw several roll of the dice that came out exactly the same.

2. Group leader handing out. Group leader handouts were by far the best method if your leader wasn't someone who favored other people. Now granted, if I led a zone and my buddy Zajan has been mudding with me for years, he's gonna get the nebula the first time we go (or whatever). The point is, this method will prove itself most fair, or people will stop following that leader. It is especially beneficial (as we did as evils) to replace the item you were getting. So if i was getting a flamberge, my other weapon would get handed down to another warrior who didn't get something. I was in Lazzraxxuum's groups mostly and this was the method of choice. As much as people bitched and at times people complained of favoritism, the evils were damn powerful and people continued to follow Lazz.

3. The CS Tiamat Split method/Zajan recordkeeping method

This method was very interesting and I was never quite fully explained how it worked. IF someone knows it..please explain more. But basically it worked like this, and I think its a decent way to split REALLY valuable items.

You get a number of bids based on how many times you went. The leader, had complete discretion on handouts as well. The first time you go to tiamat, you are there for the ride...you don't get to bid. The next time you go, you get one (or two I forget) bids. If you don't get anything, then each time you go, you get another bid. This increases your chances based on your involvement. Now if you are like Marforp, and did tiamat 6 times and never won anything, the group leader still has autonomy to hand you the Isha cloak.

Above all else, if a leader is claiming an item before the zone commences or before you walk from Ice Crag to Dobluth Kyor to join, you should be informed of what items are spoken for.

Nice can of worms Zajan.

Wobb/Vurad/Dror
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Postby cherzra » Tue Mar 13, 2001 2:27 am

One thing I'd like to mention...

When the group leader completes a quest in the zone he is leading, using items that he got in other places, it does NOT count as an item the 'group' got. At least I don't see it as such.

Sometimes the leader would keep an item for himself, whichever he liked best. That's only normal, by all means please do, he lead the zone it's his good right to. This might also coincide with finishing a quest that same zone, therefor the leader keeps two items.

Don't get your panties in a bunch people! Remember, one of those items is actually a quest which happened to finish in that zone - it is HIS, not the groups. So he can keep those two Image

E.g. quest eq from FGV, Yath Oloth, Seers, Demi..

Cherzra Eat Slime
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Postby Dalar » Tue Mar 13, 2001 2:53 am

for the id on items, why not make a set of triggers to groupsay every message given to you by identify? This way the whole group will know what they got and what they can bid on

Dalar/more people u don't remember
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Postby Dranak » Tue Mar 13, 2001 3:00 am

All your base are belong to me!
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Postby Revenki » Tue Mar 13, 2001 3:02 am

I prefer by far the leader handout method, it is by far the best, taking into account that you have a fair and impartial leader.

A couple of instances that happened to my barbarian shaman Berrok.

1. We kill Fen the dragon, not even realizing it until after most people had left, I had won the longsword of rippling flames. The leader gave it to me as we were all splitting up. At first I thought cool!! I just got a neat sword, but then reality set in, I'm a shaman, this sword is useless to me. With everybody already gone I decided to go ahead and keep the sword and gave it to my alt. warrior.

2. I got called on as my shaman Berrok again to assist with a quest in the GC hills, after killing the demons or whatever it is we were fighting, the leader decided that I needed/deserved the chalice of the elven gods. I was absolutely ecstatic, my shaman could and did use this item; unlike the sword, this was by far my shaman's prized possession. I was constantly barraged by people begging me to trade it to them, promising me their 1st and 2nd born.

Which brings me to the opinion that the leader handout is by far the better method. In lotto I got a sword I couldn't even use that I'm sure some warrior there could have enjoyed much more. By leader handout I got my most prized possession.

I'm definitely all for leader handout as long as it's a "good" leader. (No favoritism/bias.) Leader handout enforces and encourages cooperation and teamwork as opposed to the randomness and chaotic nature of lotto.

Just my 2 c

Revenki et al.

[This message has been edited by Revenki (edited 03-12-2001).]
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Postby Treladian » Tue Mar 13, 2001 3:56 am

I've got mixed feelings on the subject. Leader handing out stuff like evils did can work if the whole community is close knit. This breaks down on the goodie side where there are a lot more high levels than there are leaders. A leader can easily develop a circle of friends that they prefer to take along, but every now and then someone they normally group with won't be on so they take someone not normally a part of their circle. If a handout system that is based upon who the leader has been with more often and hence uses a list of who still gets what that's been planned in advanced, then the new guy or gal may end up with nothing for their troubles. And since there are enough goodies to go around the various leaders (at least on the non-caster side), said person may never be in the leader's group again. Especially if they're a member of a non-critical class, like a druid or ranger. Case in point, I believe I was around the 5th or 6th highest level ranger when I pretty much stopped playing a few months before the shutdown. And I also was still using a gleaming holy longsword and dark steel longsword combination, not having much luck with the quests or rares to get better weapons, including the windsong quest obviously. At most two rangers are ever needed in a group and you can do things with just one or none. At most, two groups would be zoning at any one time. Hence, I rarely got into groups once a few of my friends stopped playing and mainly just floated around as leaders asked for my services and the other 4 or 5 rangers higher than me weren't available. I didn't really mind floating around that much however since the bid system meant that I still had a shot at getting an item and making myself more useful in the future, even if I might never follow said leader again. So at least on the goodie side, bidding does have it's advantages. I do have some more coherent thoughts on the subject, but right now the only thing keeping me awake is a cup of coffee I had to keep me awake during a class so I'm gonna stop before I start rambling incoherently.
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Postby Tilandal » Tue Mar 13, 2001 4:08 am

In agree with Revenki. Its absurd to give a Longsword to a shaman. It should have gone to a warrior. I can only see 2 reason why a shaman would have gotten it.

1. None of the warriors wanted it.
2. The leader didnt think befor taking bids.

Usualy when you bid only those people who need an item are allowed to bid on it. So for the sword only warrioir types would be alowed to bid but if say a Tit ring was up for bids then only casters should bid. Further more say 1 invoker already has 2 tit rings but you another caster in the group doesnt have any. Well the ring should be bid between those people who still need 1.

Basicly what im getting at is bidding is a good system as long as you use some common sence.
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Postby Waelos » Tue Mar 13, 2001 4:24 am

Agreed Til -

simply handing out is not a fair system by iteself.

pure random bidding without using guidelines and rules is not fair at all.

Using a combination of both, I think, is the ultimate solution.

in special circumstances, handing out eq is fine (ie, hey valk sword! who's the only female in the group? Dorisday! omg! ok you want it doris? good here it is. or, no? don't want it? ok we'll bid it to whomever wants it!)

Boffo Belt of Bashing? hrm sounds like a warrior item! should put that in the 'warrior bids only' pile. unless, of course, every warrior in your group has it. . . in that case, put it in the 'everyone can bid' pile.

It isn't just the leader's responsibility to be fair. . . be fair to your comrades. Already have two Rowdy Rings of Raucous Ribaldry, by all means, bid on something else so your buddies can git some too, MKAY?!
Sure it might be the best item from the zone, but why bid on it, to hoarde it and trade it? that, imho, sucks =P bid on something you need, and if you don't need anything, pass. or request a quest item next time (hey guys, you mind if we go get X next time?) or something. Just kind use judgement. (I know, some people lack . . . if you have a question, ask your buds!)

I think bids went really well last time around. Sure I won sometimes. . .but heck, I lost a lot too =) Its all in good fun! We got to the point where I'd be bidding for someone in my group cuz he/she was there 10 times already and didnt get that item and I was already set with eq from that zone. =)

Just kinda be nice, or somethin.

Lost
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Mar 13, 2001 4:43 am

I still don't think leaders handing out items is the best method for goodies on sojourn. There are just too many goodies.. on the evil side it was rare you zoned with someone you'd never been with before.

So you do a zone and HappyCleric, who you've never grouped with before, tells the group that he ran the zone with ScrubDucky 5 times in a row now and didn't get the SillyRing, and can he please have it? Well what about GoofyRanger, who needs the SillyRing so he can start the DopeySword quest? Or BoffoThief who got screwed out of the last split you led? What do you do for SlapHappyScrappy who already has every item in the zone except the SillyRing? How about StinkyDwarf who left the zone in the middle and didn't tell you what else he wanted besides the SillyRing? You led the zone, shouldn't you get the SillyRing for your secondary if you want it?

Who gets the SillyRing? WHO GETS THE SILLYRING??!!?!?!

Screw it, too much headache for me. I'm sticking to dice.

- Ragorn
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Postby Braggo » Tue Mar 13, 2001 5:45 am

Zajan! my first zone leader ;-) haha how ya been man? see ya on soj3!

------------------
Braggo Boulderbasher
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Tue Mar 13, 2001 12:18 pm

Dranak -
"What you say?!" :P

I think the most important thing is trust. When I did my (pitiful) zoning with a crew of mostly strangers, I felt much more pressured to give concessions to certain loudmouths that were well known by the group, than to who I thought worked best and deserved it most (and often, needed it most). When I did it with friends, none of the b.s. ensued; we needed the t.g. or addy for someone and we got it for him. That was it. Because I knew that if I was S.O.L and needed a CR, my friend would also come to help me.

What am I trying to say here? The evils were much more of a tight-knit community. Rarely did I see one cheating another, or much whining. Everyone trusted that things would be done for the greater good (or evil?). This is, imho, a result of the way evils are: more experienced, and fewer in number. Goodies lack the trust or understanding and therefore handouts based on leader discretion are much rarer, which is a shame. There are certainly times I saw some groupie in leather armor who risked his life get screwed out of a much-needed item by some other guy who guessed right and got his 5th fur-lined mail or whatnot. In those times I could do nothing but thank everyone for coming and slip the needy guy a piece of eq I could spare.

Goodies are also *very* unwilling to help others for free - I remember once I had a group of like 10 ppl lined up once, and was trying to get a cleric. We were doing like a 2h hammer on some priest in BG, and we even had guest appearances from two level 50's interested in lending a friendly hand. Well the cleric *demands* that if he comes, he gets the eq (there was only one item). WTF is that? I spent the time putting together 10 ppl to do it for a friend and someone demands that all my efforts go towards his gain alone? We ended up agreeing to do it, so that afterwards we could go do other items and wouldn't go back empty handed. Nope. Said cleric finished the fight, looted the corpse, and left without even saying bye.

To all you evils: don't hate me 'cause I'm good (for now).
To all you cool goodies: thank God you're still out there!
To all you twink goodies: rot in Hell, or whatever new zone stands in its stead Image

-Mori

PS: do you think the leader should be a useful class? Like the dscaler or healer for the group? I sometimes found that the fact that my spells weren't as critical to the actual battle as other members, was helpful in leading. I could pay more attention to the fight dynamics and to typing in messages.
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Postby moritheil » Tue Mar 13, 2001 12:19 pm

PS - Myre, you rock. I had forgotten you were Zajan.
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Postby Trogar » Tue Mar 13, 2001 1:27 pm

ARGH.... of *all* the tasks to do on the mud, splitting EQ is by far the worst thing to do. I don't know if you appreciate how mind numbbingly painful it is to split eq on a regular basis.

Sometime fairness gets sucked into practicallity. Random bidding and using a mental as a judge is about as efficient you can get. Probably the best you could do is raise the probability (by giving more bids) to regular players who havn't won in a while. Even handouts is a pain, as you have to keep track of who won what big items in the last few trips.

If anyone hangs out in a regular group, the group should just be responsible and as a goal go get X item for Y person when required.

Trogar
Ruhr
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Postby Ruhr » Tue Mar 13, 2001 2:07 pm

You could cheat with a mental also.

-------
order followers say "I have 205 hit points"

instead of

order followers report
-------

Then if you asked them to group the elemental, they'd get offended.

[This message has been edited by Ruhr (edited 03-13-2001).]
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Postby Gindipple » Tue Mar 13, 2001 2:34 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>Who gets the SillyRing? WHO GETS THE SILLYRING??!!?!?!

Screw it, too much headache for me. I'm sticking to dice.

- Ragorn</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

tell Ragorn 'what are the stats on that ring, I might need it' Image
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Postby Zajan / Myre » Tue Mar 13, 2001 9:05 pm

In response to Revenki and Tilandal (the shaman getting the longsword)

One thing I did do as a group leader, and the groups I led knew it, was allowed someone who couldn't use an item to get it in 2 situations..

1. if they needed it for a quest (which normally wasn't left to doubt becase we were all tight knit enough that I normally knew who was working on what quests)

2. If someone had one class on and ready to do a zone... then we realized we needed their other class... (I.e. Zoldren has his troll on and is high enough level to do Jot with us and wants to go as a warrior... whups.. we are short on spell power.. so I ask zoldren to log in his Invoker (without inferno!). The group is informed at this point that on Zoldren's choice he can either receive a warrior or an invoker item.) Now of course this example implies that Zoldren would receive an item at all and in some cases a person would switch just to fill out group dynamics. However, I think it's fair to 'cross bid' in situations such as my own. I was a resser for the 'evils' so it was a rare day indeed that I could bring my 47th level troll to any zone due to the 'need' for a cleric. I never minded switching cause I loved my job as a caster, but I have to admit I had my lava pendants and duergar mithril earrings as well. I doubt anyone would begrudge me that.

On and Wobbly! The I won't even go into explaining the tiamat method.. I knew it in a painfully acute way.. However, it only worked when you were part of the goodie favorites.. Myre went on 9 Tiamat runs with the same group you refer to (and several others with other groups) then finally on the 10th run he WON the magi staff.. the six bid failure didn't do squat if the leader would only hand out the item to certain people.
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Postby Jegzed » Tue Mar 13, 2001 9:14 pm

For whiners there is always the option to lead themselves if they don't fancy the split.

/Jegzed, cranky and bitchy.
Ruhr
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Postby Ruhr » Tue Mar 13, 2001 9:19 pm

mmmm lava pendants... where they still +2 dam for sojourn2?
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Postby Zajan / Myre » Tue Mar 13, 2001 9:24 pm

Grrrr Dag nabbit! Blasted computers..

Okay all Had to reload ICQ and lost most names.. Far easier to reach my buds here on a thread than e-mail all yer arses... so send me a message on ICQ 17901707 so I can re-add ya.. and so I can get ICQ beeps at 3am saying "could you log on to do a dozen resses"

Zajan
ICQ 17901707
imp
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Postby imp » Tue Mar 13, 2001 10:11 pm

I know the nuisiance of leading a zone with many ppl, just being stoner/healer with a large group zoning is quite some work.

Imho let the leader split as he want to or learn to lead you self (tho I'd rather call for dice than be the subject of favoritism).

/imp - does not lead.
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Postby Zoldren » Tue Mar 13, 2001 10:43 pm

Continuation (gets more coffee)
another reason dice is not good
say you have a "high" lvl group but are short on bashers .. so you grab a "mid" lvld basher to go zone w/you... or bunch of them depending on how short :P
if you dice.. chance that everyone gets something "good"
logicaly wouldnt it be better to have the "high" lvl people with the better eq that you normaly zone with. so zones could be done more effeciently and the eq filtered/trickled down to others more than if everyone is "equal on eq"? food for fights Imagezold drow sloberd by uagr troll
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Postby Azralek Silvermist » Tue Mar 13, 2001 11:43 pm

Simply put the leader hand out is one of the best systems.

And in Soj2 my 34 Warr became better equipped than my 45 RAnger by time soj went down.

However in all fairness the goodie groups in soj one and soj 2 were composed of a select group of people. And when one of us odd men out got to go leader hand outs tended not to favor us. ( so random good for goodies)

Us poor Rangers do zones too few times to really hope to reach up in leaders esteem to get a fair chance on hand outs)

* Waelos excluded from above statemen cause he is UBER-Ranger.
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Postby Dalar » Wed Mar 14, 2001 12:44 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tilandal:
<B>In agree with Revenki. Its absurd to give a Longsword to a shaman. It should have gone to a warrior. I can only see 2 reason why a shaman would have gotten it.

1. None of the warriors wanted it.
2. The leader didnt think befor taking bids.

Usualy when you bid only those people who need an item are allowed to bid on it. So for the sword only warrioir types would be alowed to bid but if say a Tit ring was up for bids then only casters should bid. Further more say 1 invoker already has 2 tit rings but you another caster in the group doesnt have any. Well the ring should be bid between those people who still need 1.

Basicly what im getting at is bidding is a good system as long as you use some common sence.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not 100% sure about this...
The choice for the sword wasn't absurd, the longsword of rippling flames is part of a cult quest in GN.
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Postby cherzra » Wed Mar 14, 2001 3:11 am

Are you saying Blung wasn't fair? That's a FALSE statement if I ever read one.

I had to prove my ass hard before I ever got an item from Lazz, I must have gone on 10 zones and not gotten anything. After he saw I played more than any other warrior and was good at it, I got top stuff every time, resulting in a twilight. This is a good way, give those who group with you most and who play hardest the better items, ensuring a 'core' group, and this is how I intend to hand out items in zones I lead this wipe.

Blung however was as fair as I have ever seen it. When I was a nobody level 30 troll I asked him if he had some bloodstone bonemail for sale (I didn't dare to just ask for some), knowing he did BS a lot. Guess what? He didn't even know me, but just took one out of his bag, gave it to me and said 'enjoy'. Later when we did GH king, Scorn and FGV eq regularly, he gave eq out the same way. I didn't have to prove myself first, nobody did. You came along, you got something. I don't know why you diss him, but let me tell you - Lazz is cool, but Blung rules too. Thank Blung.
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Postby Wargo » Wed Mar 14, 2001 3:32 am

I was mostly a freelance warrior who would zone with any group. If it wasn't for the bidding system I would've never gotten as well equiped. Although, I'd still whine to my friend who won the sapphire belt during his first root trip while I had been spanked there more times than some people have ever been there. All is fair since it was also bidding that got me my Isha Cloak.

Some issues regarding handouts that I didn't like:
1. If you have inferior equipment to start with you will forever be inferior to the other PC with the same level. If you are wearing a crappy ring while A is wearing a titanium ring and B is wearing a tiny ruby ring and your group just did Brass, A is gonna get the amethyst ring and B is gonna get the elemental control ring and you get the tit ring. All is nice...However, let's say the group now does TF, A is gonna get the eldritch ring, B gets amethyst ring and you get the ele ring. See what I mean, you will always be one step behind. If let's say eldritch ring gets removed after two trips, you are out of your luck to ever wear one!

2. With more and more focus on the evils development, the evil population will just get bigger and bigger. Just compare the population of evils between Toril and Sojourn2. While Toril evils still relied on outcasts, some of the Soj2 groups went pure evils. This time around, it's going to get bigger especially after the mentioning of the grandeous Menzo. How are the evils going to keep a close-nit group? They won't and they can't. Either eliticism will form or they'll switch to bidding.

Wargo
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Postby Trogar » Wed Mar 14, 2001 4:10 am

I just want to comment on elitism. I don't understand why people get so mad about people on the mud grouping up and hanging out on a regular basis. Why shouldn't good mudders enjoy the company of other high quality mudders? I've been on both sides of the coin, I remember starting out with newbie groups and I remember having very experienced groups. And I know having groups of experienced players is soooooo much nicer and efficient. Eventually with work the group can build up an eq base and become stronger. When you have an experienced group, you can strive to accomplish bigger goals - and that's when the mud really gets fun.

I'm sorry, I don't see why people whine about 'elitism'. The mud is for fun, you should hang around with people you enjoy talking to.

Trogar HolyAnvil
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Postby Wobb » Wed Mar 14, 2001 4:19 am

Illreok, don't flame peeps on this board man. I was with Lazz and Blung a LOT and can cite instances opposite what you claim. So, I'm sure we all can agree that at times people might get greedy...hey thats fine...but to elude that someone is not a reputable leader based on what you have said in this forum is frankly, cheap.

Wobb

Side note, every leader I followed as an evil was very generous to me personally, wobb lost all his eq at one point and everyone, Lazz and Blung included, helped me rebuild. thanks guys
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Postby Zhadow » Wed Mar 14, 2001 4:49 am

Just want to clear something out. The way handing out eq was done if i remember correctly after zoning goes this way. High level players and/or players who have done the zone more than anyone and did not get anything usually get the best eq appropriate to his or her class after zoning. What ever eq that replace the recent eq that player receieved gets hand down to the next high level players and/or players who have done the zone more than anyone. The eq(s) trickle down the line. Hence i believed this is still the best way on my opinion to distribute eq(s) after zoning.
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Postby Jurdex » Wed Mar 14, 2001 5:42 am

The evils keep saying how handouts are fair, well, maybe so for the evils.

Goodies worked a lot different. The numbers alone force a leader's hand sometimes.

Sure, you could develop a core group, and I've been a part of some nice ones, but you'll then be called elitist.

It is always a catch-22. Image

Jurdex
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Postby Elscint » Wed Mar 14, 2001 5:57 am

As a leader, you will never please everyone. Deal with it.

As a follower, you will not always get what you want. Deal with it.

It's that simple. Don't whine, don't complain, don't threaten never to group again, just shut up, go the next time and try again. It took Marforp 15 times at Tia before he got the Isha Cloak, it took me 9 before I got the Helm of the Dragonkind. Did we whine and bitch at Kurz cause we didn't win after try 4 or 5, no. Maybe we quietly complained to one another but who doesn't it's human nature. Our little complaints of course were not meant to hurt anyone and I'm quite sure they didn't we just had to vent a little like 'Man that's try 12 and I missed again, sigh, next trip.' or 'Some guys have all the luck, that was only his 3rd trip and he won the Isha?! Jeeez!' In no way did we say ohmygodkurzI'llnevergroupwithyouagainIdidn'twintheisha! that is lame. And unfortunately there are those types out there. You know who you are, there is no need to name names, but be aware that the more you do that the fewer leaders will group you. As the mud gets more popular and our player base gets older and more mature you'll see people gravitate away from those that cause drama during groups especially during the eq split.

Elscint Hairytoes (The Halfling Sorcerer)
Luke

P.S. Yes there was a time when it was all about equipment for me too. I did make a mistake the first time I ever grouped with Kurz, that goodness he let me group with him again I would not have gotten nearly as far without those guys, all of them.
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Postby Tagad » Wed Mar 14, 2001 7:40 am

I would just like to point out that the "Evil" way of splitting items has never been restricted to only the Evils of Sojourn/etc. Plenty of this type of behavior happened in the Elitist groups I played in and most of the time everyone was happy. I remember bidding on trash that no one needed as Tagad, and I remember group leaders leading zones specificaly to get one item for a member of the group. Replacement Isha...(thanks Todd and Kurz) Fiery Crown of Surtur (Thanks Vallon)...

Speaking of Tiamat, the KurzLoot system was one of the better systems for splitting l3wtz from this silly beast. Basically for every tiamat run you went on you earned bid points. You had to have a certain number of runs under your belt before you could bid on items, and your bid points would be used to gain you number selections. The standard random system was then used with the elemental and all that jazz. If you won an item you had a number of bid points removed etc. If you didnt win on an item you didnt have bid points removed.

Someone correct me if I'm remembering that wrong.

A modified version of the KurzLootSystem has been Adopted by the Everquest Guild Afterlife. It is called the DKP or Dragon Kill Point system. They rate every uber encounter with a number of dragon kill points. Each time a guild member kills an uber mob with the guild they receive dragon kill points. All items from these runs are stored by the guild master / run leader. All special items have a DKP cost, a player may cash in DKP for an item. If two players desire the same item and may both afford it, they do a roll off. The winner of the roll off receives the item and DKP is deducted from his DKP pool by the guild master.

DKP is a pretty good method for uber loot distribution in a large guild (40 + members). It keeps things fair and impartial, but it is my opinion that loot distribution shouldnt neccicarly be impartial Image Call me elitist, call me scum, certain people always put in more effort and they should be rewarded first, but not overly rewarded.

The system the guild I am a member of in Everquest, Fires of Heaven, uses pretty much the old Tavon method for uber loot distribution. You showed up for the raid? You were helpful and didnt screw up majorly last raid? You need the item? You got the item. Seniority does play into it, but constant help seems to be more important.

Tagad Sigil
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Postby Mplor » Wed Mar 14, 2001 1:22 pm

echo Elscint
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Postby Jenera » Wed Mar 14, 2001 7:34 pm

*cheer Elscint*
right on, Hairytoes! Image
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Postby Sarell » Wed Mar 14, 2001 10:18 pm

Bah too hard box, pond it all!
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Postby Vallon » Thu Mar 15, 2001 5:28 am

It's considered elitest, but it works: I grouped with people that I knew. The first big groups I was ever in were led by Xyzom, Lothair, or Jerthal: Whether I got anything or not, I didn't care... I saw new zones.

After a while Jerthal had a bunch of us out every night. Maybe a dozen of us would log on just before midnight, and he'd take us places until 3-4 am.

We did that for several months.

Eq splits were whatever he felt like doing.
He led, it was his choice.
If anyone wanted something and they didn't get it right away, who cared... We got the same item again 24 hours later.

What i'm getting at, is this type of group tends to be the most well equiped on the mud. Occasionaly, someone would be needed to replace someone sleeping/vacation/whatever... Usually, they got something good for helping: Not the absolute best if it was needed, but still, something sweet. If they'd been out often, they got the best, and were considered part of the group.

No-one complained though, and everyone in the group seemed to be happy.

"Elitism" does kick in though when you've got a number of people happy to group/chat with each other, that don't want outsiders.

People need to remember, though, when a group of people is comfortable with each other, and know they're capable of taking a zone as they are, adding an additional 1-2-3-however many people serves no point.



[This message has been edited by Vallon (edited 03-15-2001).]
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Postby Jasix Prowlingwolf » Thu Mar 15, 2001 6:45 am

You all got some very relivant points, nothing is ever fair BUT what is fair and saves leaders a lot of headaches is to state how the bids are to be done BEFORE you kill the first mob. I've always been outspoken on EQ splitting, why am I greedy? No I dont think so I just like fairness and I really hate buttwipes that use people and basicly look out for their bestest buddies and screw over the also-came-alongs.

It all comes down to the GROUP having some sence of fairness, if your primary character is so buff he doesn't need that second scorpian mask dont bid on it. If you have all the warrior eq and you want that MS ringmail for your lvl 20 thief but the lvl 46 cleric is still wearing dorfmail dont bid on it! Yes I broke those rules myself amny times, mostly cause that was what was happening with the rest of the group. Doesn't make it right tho. It really did piss me off that the most selfish bidders were usally the ones with all the good gear and they just gave it to someone they liked that wasn't even in the group... My only exception to this is bidding for ones wife/husband. Bringing home the bacon for your spouce is relivant if only in a roleplaying sence.

One typical screwed up bid comes to mind. Invasion! yes everyones mad scramble to get into the Invasion group. Like most invasion groups the bickering started before moving away from Jot Tree. People were gated up, then told they not needed, friends were asked to log on to come along, first time Invasion people jumped about excited to be going along and maybe win something spanky and as usual half of them were sent back to Prime cause so&so turned up late etc etc.

Group is finalized (yes i know it's a dificult group to assemble) We killed, died, killed moved through the zone. People ask constanly about the eq and bids, leader ignored all reequests for clarification. People had to leave only to be replaced by others (not of the same class but friends of leader). Other friends of leader joined when not needed, usual bickering and tells go around the group. (*bah who let him come along we already full etc) Others leave and leave bids with leader. group fianlly kills last mobs and gates home. Many questions and recommendations fly around about bids. Leader still says nothing. Sensible people follow the most appropriate unspoken rules and not bid on items they can not use. Bids are done. Still no firm clarification of the bidding system and rules. End result... Twightlight sword (warrior only) is bid on by Jasix (warrior), Hania (warrior) Leader (who already has a twighlight), Druid (that cant use and not even have a secondary warrior) and a paladin (also cant use it) Who wins it? The druid and then gives it to a guild buddy that wasn't even in the group when we killed for the sword... Am i bitter cause i didn't win it? Nope, i am bitter cause as usual the leader wanted it for his mates and to hell with the other 20 people that came along to die for the cause. The paladin and the druid were mates of mine but still.. This seemed to happen a lot with some of the groups. Sure leading it tough, i'm an irrate forceful leader, i put group first then worry about who still likes me at the end.

If we have to put our tongues in leaders butts to get fair bids then i'm gunna walk about naked, cause i aint standing about and letting it happen to the small guys again this time. If you are not going to treat all your group fairly dont let anyone but your buttbuddies follow you. But if you get treated badly and still suck up to those sort of leaders then you get what you deserve.

Pride and respect are much better then any piece of equipment. Respect yourself and stand up for what you think is right. Rocking the boat may get your thrown out but you can always swim to shore and fire ya cannon back at them :P

Jasix Prowlingwolf
Defender of the meek



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Postby Verarb » Thu Mar 15, 2001 7:37 am

Hallo! i do believe yer talking about this druid that won that twilight. i didn't have a warrior alt, that's true but my earth mentals could spank a heck of a lotta shit with that poker so i could use it!. i gave it to Touk after a while, who was not in the guild at that point btw, just because... hrmm, i saw him first after i got bored with it. Twilight was probably the only thing i *could* bid on and use from invasion actually, the belt didn't do anything for me or my con. None of that stuff about ungrouping people to fit in friends happened. People might have been misinformed about who could come and who you could bring along blah blah but nobody was kicked outta the group, that's just !Jurdex. You gotta realize Jurd was prolly managing 30+ people and talking to a bunch at the same time, misinformation will happen. When people left hell yah we thought about adding people from the guild first. What self respecting guild wouldn't?
Your memories of that trip was colored from the very beginning i believe when the group just didn't have room for your gf? I'm sorry Image. Next time i win a twilight i'll dice it between you and her, step back and let the sh*t hit the fan.

i'm still yer mate -verarb

PS. Jurd! i told ya there were gonna be problems!



[This message has been edited by Verarb (edited 03-15-2001).]
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Postby Jasix Prowlingwolf » Thu Mar 15, 2001 8:22 am

heheh yeah Vman yeah well i didn't wanna use names but yeah that was the incident. was never a matter of my gf not being able to go along, she knew she wants big enough at the time. People were not forced out to let others join but when people left their place was filled with classes that didn't fill the spot, but filled the 'friend' role. NONE of the people that were told they couldn't come because we were full were allowed to join when we had people leave but others that logged on were asked tho primarily on friednship not for the betterment of the group.

My main point being that the leader did not once say how bidding would be, 2 hours on all the requests and clarifications flew around only to fall on deaf ears. A proper sensible bid system would not have benifited Errants or the leaders friends so he said nothing outwardly to clear it up. Kildran would have bid for the sword too but he was fair enough to not bid on the major item he couldn't use with his current character. Many others voiced their disgust at the bids as well. I'm not having a Jurdex bash just talking of one situtation i hope is never repeted. A lesson for other leaders to know that not everyone wants to suck up to them for EQ. A guild run is a guild run, not a leader belonging to a guild and having less them 1/4 of the group being guildies. ALL usual guild bidding crap should be thrown away and bids rules made to fit the situation to be fairest for all. If you wanna run invasion or any other zone like your guild would great, piss off and let someone else lead and wait for your guildies to turn up to help you, but dont USE the rest just to feather your own nest. Your a good bloke Vman but saying you didn't want anything else so you bid for the best item that you couldn't use only to give to someone that wasn't there is a cope out and just gives more wgt to my argument. Had you and Jurdex cared more for the whole group then just for yourself and friends you would have bid for some minor item not as important. But as usual the Haves just have to have more and the Have-nots can go to hell.. I just want the Have-nots to get a fairer go this time around. Had Touk been there at bidding and lost to someone else who couldn't use it I would have kicked up a stink for him too. 'Warrior only' is one thing but 'Friends only' always leaves me wanting to spit more. I'm sure my statements have just cut me out of a lot of groups in the future but hey you should know my PRIDE is what matters and I sure do love to shake people up in the hope they learn from my ravings.

People that have all they want shouldn't need to bid, they should be happy to have been able to help others get what they need/wanted/could use. A leader should have the guts to say 'sorry mate, others need that more, how about you take this instead?' Rofl like that was gunna happen last time.

Be good!




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Postby Jurdex » Thu Mar 15, 2001 8:28 am

I somewhat recall that trip.

Well, unfortunately, on Soj2, invasion was just a pain in the ass.

You basically had to deal with what you could get real fast, then round out the group later on. . .

Now, on Toril or even Sojourn, the player base was large enough to afford a reasonable group at most hours to start off, but invasion on soj2 got out of hand.. a lot!

Trust me, I didn't like 25 people groups anymore than the next guy, but its hard to say no when the entire mud wants to come, and basically can't do another zone for lack of numbers until you're done. Image

*shrug*

Jasix, I understand your viewpoint, and I have been in that situation myself, but I don't ever recall restricting bids in groups unless previously mentioned.

Anyway, my point is Verarb contributed just as much as anyone else and was allowed to bid on Twilight as much as the next guy under those guidelines. I didn't change the way I bid invasion eq.. I guess I like the idea of at least having a chance rather than the leader handing it to someone else?

The system wasn't perfect, but as previously stated, one cannot please everybody.

Heck, I only used twilight for the infra! Image

Anyway, I always want my groups to be about fun first and eq second, so hopefully that trend will continue into the next mud!

Jurdex
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Postby Jasix Prowlingwolf » Thu Mar 15, 2001 9:23 am

Nods no worries Jurd,

I just call it as I see it, is just a good idea to spell it out right at the start. Vman may have deserved to bid it as much as anyone, but he gave it away.... hence didn't really want it shouldn't have bid for it. Letting your mental use it is way cool.. but very uncool to deprive someone that fought hard to get it. Hopefully leaders will state their bidding systems right away this time around, there are maybe incidents like this one but involving other leaders, that one just pin pointed a major let down in many areas.

Being some what of a renegade with no loyalty except for those that earned it I have a hard time putting up with much that I dislike.

Maybe we shall group again this time around and I will praise you for your bidding systems and leadership but as always I shall speak my mind. People like leaders that are straight up and forward and not wait til the last minute to set the rules, or in this case not set rules, which lets confusion win.

I'm sure guilds will forma again and new differences of opinion will emerge, that's what mudding is all about aint it? personal differences and friendships. can't have love without the war...

Cheers, have fun guys.




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Postby Verarb » Thu Mar 15, 2001 2:21 pm

OK! Jasix i could and did use twilight, just unconventionally but with hindsight you're right, i shouldn't have bid on it. You and all the warriors there deserved it more.
I'm sorry to you and to them.
Twilight is !verarb and his little mentals too.
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Postby Jurdex » Thu Mar 15, 2001 8:10 pm

The bidding system was definitely set prior to the group, I worked all my invasion groups the same. If I didn't reply to an inquiry due to spam all you had to do was ask another person in the group and they would have let you know. I set restrictions beforehand if there are any, and there were none so nothing was said. Make sense?

Jurdex
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Postby Brugg » Thu Mar 15, 2001 8:12 pm

I BID ON THAT SLENDER LONGSWORD!


and later

I BID ON THAT ONE HORNED DWARVEN HELMET!
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Postby belleshel » Thu Mar 15, 2001 8:20 pm

Don't remember anyone I followed that was more fair with groups or bids then Jurdex.
Don't take it out on Vman all druids had mental problems,
Belleshel

Bad one I know. Image

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