"No More Zoning For Evils" issue - my OWN point of view

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Ruagh
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\"No More Zoning For Evils\" issue - my OWN point of view

Postby Ruagh » Sun Aug 25, 2002 10:36 am

Most of you have heard that I have lost a fully equipped pcorpse recently due to a silly circumstances. First of all, I want to thank all the people who helped me out with their spare gear - some pieces are even better than the ones I had before. Now, let me share some of my ideas which I have got after thinking about the reasons of that accident. About a month ago I came back from a long break which took at least 8-10 months. Since my first char at Soj3 was created after 20 mins from the beginning of this wipe, I think I have a right to have some kind of an opinion on whats going on.

Dark Side was always outnumbered, and it was actually making it even more funnier. Before my break evils were zoning at a regular basis. I am not even mentioning things like Myth Drannor, Muspelheim, Clouds, Jot Invasion. I am talking about usual ordinary things like Jot, Brass, Crypts, some Underdark runs and so on. Im leaving for a break... And what do I see after returning? Let me see:

# Log file open.
WHO EVIL

<CUT>

There are 6 mortal(s) on.
Total visible players: 6.
Record number of players on this boot: 99.

WHO GOOD

<CUT>

There are 36 mortal(s) on.
Total visible players: 36.
Record number of players on this boot: 99.

Okay, as we can see, evils are outnumbered like 1:6. Maybe people havent noticed this tendency because it was happening slowly - but to me, situation "before my break" and situation "after my break" seems totally different. Before the break, evils were outnumbered like 1:1,5...1:2. Now they are usually outnumbered like 1:3...1:4 at very least (Im not counting my example shown above, where evils are outnumbered by 1:6).
Thats a cumulative effect, it will be even stronger since now (at least in my online time) it is next to impossible to gather a zoning group which will contain both 40+ healer and stoner. Last zoning which I have lead were done with a lev.27 stoner and a lev.40 healer. Both were just alts, and they were thinking as their primary chars. Thats why after we did some zoning and two warriors have a bad luck on Astral, allowing others to flee, after a succesful CR clerics didnt even thought about pressing the corpses. The reason? To me, reason is clear. They werent THINKING as clerics who used to press tons of pcorpses, they there thinking as their primary chars who have nothing in common with clerics! But then again, they do enjoy playing their primary chars more, and we would be unable to zone AT ALL unless they will log in their lowbie alts. Thats a picture of how evils are zoning now. I strongly beleive that something HAS to be done with that. All the fuss about if the 5 hps on the Warhelm Of Spankiness will imbalance the game doesnt matters much if there will be no-one online to wear that helm. Im trying to avoid "The sky is falling" tone, but to me the facts are clear - I simply cant zone anymore now. Thats where the true imbalance is.

Okay, enough whinning about "everything is wrong". Lets see what can be done to fix the things. I think, first of all the warning "Dont play an evil, you'll be hurt bad for that" (which isnt true at all, because evils tend to have a much friendlier athmosphere) should be removed from the character generation menus. It forces almost all the newbies to go on the good side - and they WILL stay there, because they will have friends there after some time. Second... Hrmmm... I dont know what to do, actually. Maybe creating more evil-only (high-level to avoid twinking em with goodie alts) quests? Maybe creating more funny evil-only zones and evil-only items? Who knows. I think I'll heard about it in this thread which will probably convert into a flame. And, I wanted to note that it is MY VERY OWN point of view, and I may be wrong and it may be different from yours. So I dont care if somebody will yell at me that Im plain wrong goodie-wannabe wuss. I always was an evil, and I will never switch sides just to be able to zone more (like lots of evils already did). The Game was fun to me at the Dark Side, and now it is way less fun, thats all about it. Now I want to hear opinions of others.

Because this touches the very basic things on Sojourn, Id like to hear a Staff's responce here too, please.

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Ruagh The Curious Troll pokes his long nose into another none-of-his-business matter here

[This message has been edited by Ruagh (edited 08-25-2002).]
cherzra
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Postby cherzra » Sun Aug 25, 2002 10:56 am

But but but evils have actually managed to do invasion say, oh, five times! I zone once or -if I'm lucky- twice a week, HERESY! Evils aren't supposed to be able to zone!

All the people who stopped playing contribute nicely to this, as they did their part in making evils nothing but a hollow shell. Like they should be! And all those people who never lead yet say "No I don't feel like doing that zone." when asked to come, they play their part in ensuring that the few people who lead eventually quit out of frustration. Exactly the way it should be! Everyone who tries to lead and get some up-and-coming people equipped, is an ass. And taking lvl 35-45 people on as extras on easy zoning trips is _definitely_ a no-no. Let them sit around the fountain for weeks on end until they too quit out of frustration. And we have -gasp- dire raiders, evils are SO horribly overpowered.

Evils need to be downgraded. They shouldn't be allowed anything. Evils blow chunks and they should. Let them sit around the fountain.
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Postby Jegzed » Sun Aug 25, 2002 11:21 am

I hate having to wait for hours cause no cleric is online.

I hate telling people, "wanna come zone?" and they are "busy doing exp".

I hate seeing just 3-5 other evils online for a few hours.


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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
Salen
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Postby Salen » Sun Aug 25, 2002 12:34 pm

Biggest problem you have and will have isn't lack of evils, it's the overwhelming idea that if you go from good to evil, you have to 'PROVE YOURSELF' before you can be anything. Whether this stereotype is right or not is not the point. For all of SJ3 the tales of Goods going evil and getting shunned from all 'real' groups have flown; some true, some not.
I watched over the shoulder of a friend while one of the 'GREAT' leaders of evil lambasted (check that spelling) a warrior for missing a bash and causing a spank. He didn't have the courtesy to do it in tells, he Gsay'd the whole thing. 1 Bash. Everyone misses bashes. In this case, it happened to let a spell to go off and all the trolls died. In this case, the warrior was told (Gsay again) that he'd never go on another trip with XXXX (names have been changed to protect the innocent{though if there is a squid named XXXX it's not him}).
I watched over the shoulder the same friend (who was playing a squid) as othe Squids where quests started, mind you not 'Tell Me The Quest', not 'Do the quest for me' but what mob STARTS it. He NEVER got an answer from any but 1 of them. He couldn't even get answers about what the unknowns listed were.
In each case it was the 'PROVE YOURSELF' mentality that took place. In each case you lost people who had been here in Toril days if not before.
I know these 2 instances cost you 5 players. How many other instances have there been just like this?

My reason for not going evil is, I know that eventually I will say something/object to the way something is done, and not be invited by XXXX anymore. Not being invited by them cuts my ability to play down greatly as their guild will not invite me etc. With the limited number of leaders in Ebilville, that type of outcasting is a death sentence. The only reason Goodieland is any better is, if I piss off 1 leader, I have myriad (just for you Rags) other leaders to pick from.
How to solve your problem? No clue. Perhaps if there was a wholesale sidechange by a guild or something. Perhaps if there were more 'give them a chance' attitude perceived than the 'what have you done, who do you know' attitude.
I know what isn't going to change it. Swords of UberAssKicking and Robes of DarkElfie Prowess aren't going to change jack. Zones that only Evils can do won't either. You have that now and I don't see people leaving the goods to get to 50 so they can go do them.

You have a problem with numbers, but you have a bigger problem with perception.

The perception of Evils is going to have to change before your numbers will.

TANGENT (slightly)
I would point you to the Stats section of these pages where visually you can notice a gradual but noticable decine in overall numbers of players (either in actual number of players, or in of time on-line). What you are seeing is a skewing of that trend because you had a smaller set of players to begin with. That, I think, is a bigger concern than just evils numbers.

I actually wish you the best of luck in changing the way evil is seen by the players, and I hope you don't recruit the wrong type of players that render the cooler aspects of being evils asunder.


Oh I almost forgot about the whole 'if you trade eq you suck' thing. But that's another story.


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Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Sun Aug 25, 2002 12:53 pm

Please note!!! This is not a flame of any kind, and I don't want Todrael's job.

http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000540.html
http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000821.html
http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000858.html
http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000867.html
http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000874.html
http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000876.html
http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001282.html


I didn't go through trying to pick out ugly threads or complaining ones, just ones that gave some idea of what the evil population was at that time. This has been an issue almost since day one, and I have a feeling the numbers of evils will continue to fluctuate. I can even remember somebody... was it Cherzra?... who made a very impassioned plea for goodies to roll evils in a form of recruitment for the evil side because at the time it was just impossible to go zoning.

I think I also chose one or maybe two of those links because they show part of the evil culture. I'm not saying anything bad about it, but there are "rules" for being an evil, it seems to be a stricter, more demanding society. And then there's the numbers themselves which work against you. When the numbers drop, they will continue to decline as people migrate to where there are more people to play with. I rolled a little evil, but most of my friends are on the goodie side, and I enjoy hanging out with them. Trading camaraderie for frustrating deaths on top of deaths with no company doesn't always seem appealing after you've already served your time in the trenches of the beginning stages. I'd love to play an evil occasionally, because there's a whole other side of the mud I've never seen, puzzles I've never had the chance to try to solve, zones I've never heard of. It's a catch-22, fewer people means more people tend to move to where the crowds are. Eventually the numbers will grow again, and that growth will spur even more growth until the numbers begin to stablize for a while before dropping again.
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Postby Tanji Smanji » Sun Aug 25, 2002 1:06 pm

I think it should also be noted that summer really isn't the busiest time of the MUD year. I think things will pick up slightly as we get closer to the end of september.
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Postby Silsaturer » Sun Aug 25, 2002 1:25 pm

I played a Troll War once, on Toril...

I am now a Duergar Enchanter, and in all my time I had NEVER as Xurgas been to the underdark, because Gorkl told me it was "nothing special." Sadly, he is right... In DK people routinely walk circles in the city killing all of the mobs... As Xurgas I all but solo'd to level 37 on the surface, just as I did my paladin. For me, it was a way of life, and a good way to learn the mud. Gorkl and Chuxx helped me out a lot, but now, I see few people willing to help.

There are exceptions however. Muma's myriad of evil alts, Turxx, Grund, and others but as for exploring in the underdark? I'd learned my lesson when I lost my 4rth corpse because nobody would "risk dying for noob gear." Honestly, much of it was given to me, and some of it was quite good, so losing it to some agro hidden mob just didn't seem... apealling...

I thought I was used to the life of an evil being hard, but DK is cake... Hence why I am no longer there. When I was level 6 as Xurgas, I had prolly enough Pcorpses to build a bridge to BG with the bones...

I have yet to zone, but I have already been offered a place in a guild. I will, eventually take to leading the zones that I did as a goodie, but learning the underdark will be my first priority.

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Sils,
Duergar Wiz Extraordiare
Xisiqomelir
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Sun Aug 25, 2002 1:37 pm

I don't really know what to say about this whole 6:1 ratio, and I'm not sure what exactly I can do about it. So, in classic incompetent tradition, here's my story instead. *grinzors*

I actually was a player on Toril (I know, same story EVERYONE has), but with a twist. No one will remember Zhanphus the Antipaladin, coz despite some VERY nice help from Damnatus and Sangdraxus, the whole "being killed by giant black squirrels up a tree" bit was too tragically depressing for me, so I never bothered playing after about 2 months of trying to get past lvl 10.

--fast foward some years--

Being Singaporean (yes gum really IS banned here B) I, like every other unfortunate male was up for 2 1/2 YEARS of Military Service (I became a combat medic if anyone cares). One day a coupla months before Xmas last year while rooting through my by now v. old hard drive I stumbled upon my copy of MuddWeller (Very Macintosh household). Being a little more Netwise than I was before I found the Mudconnector site and searched for my ab fav fantasy scenario...Forgotten Realms MUDS. Lo and behold....*Hey there's a Sojourn *3*!!! Let's give 'er a shot*

Early days- Being someone who pays no heed at all to warnings about what chars to roll, Evil=Tough warnings could'nt possibly have kept my away from my favourite alignment. And the prospect of being an Illithid was just too kewl, specially since I'd just got my copy of the Illithiad the day before. And then...Ixarkon.

My First Nice Evil Experience- Wandering around on slave island I crash into this other 'thid. Checking the wholist I find out he's **LEVEL 15** OMFG!!! And here I am at level ONE! God how Über can you get?!?! So anyway, Azzzmohazzz (for it was he) explained to me how to talk, what was where in the Underdark, gave me advice, my first eq set (most of which I'm still wearing), my first money, heck most of my first LEVELS while he was at it. This went on for about three months, during which I met a whole stack of ppl (Hi Levv!), and without exception, every big evil I met had nice things to say (and give) to me. Playing a tiny evil is really beyond comparison to anything else I've ever done before

Part 2-Army Sends me to Jungles of Brunei/Mountains of Thailand/Deserts of Australia
Let's just skip this part :P

Part 3-I FINISH MY NS BABY!!!!<-this friday
I'm done with the stupid army, I've got PILES of free time on my hands while the dumb government keeps paying me for the 2 months of leave I've scraped together over the past 900 days, I drag a previously Diablow-playing friend into being a cleric-AND YOU SAY ITS ALL OVER?!

No go dude. Evils are dead when our pbase hits 0, not before. Look, I've never had much time to concentrate on MUDding until now; proved by my Grand Accumulated Total of 6 days of playtime and just 24 levels over 11 RL months, so I'm probably more n00b than someone who's been on consistently from just a fortnight ago, but I don't see that much has changed from the Evil attitudes of last year. My even n00ber friend Donuktanam (the D2 player) has been SHOWERED with eq from big evils (thanks Cherzra, Todrael, Izz, Ssissiv! Image; he keeps looking at me dazed (we sometimes play from a LAN gaming shop) and asking "Are these guys for real?". It's been a nice change for him to come to a game where players treat someone who's pretty small and puny to them now with a little generosity. It's that culture of gaming which ensures that when the aforementioned become unpuny, they'll remember where their dwarven scales came from so many lvls ago, and repay in full heals and gheals and resses and shifts into perpetuity.

What is it we need? Is it an always ready (or at least always ready to be put together by ICQ and SMS) "zoning group"? As a noob, I'm not sure what goes into those. Is it healers and enchanters we need? REAL, PRIMARY, healers and enchanters, not trolls in disguise? Image
Why don't we go recruit some? I've got one buddy hooked on Sojourn (EVIL Sojourn), and I'm working on some others. I'm doing exp like crazy now, making up for lost time, to make myself a useful evil and not such a leech and I will be more than happy to group with anyone stupid enough to take me. Once I get my IP masquerade set up so my mother stops irritating me when she "must" check email the 7th time in a day I'll be able to go nonstop (apologies on that note to Zof and Grun)

Let's not be negative. Singapore time is 12 hours different from EST. What do you think the wholist looks like to me? I STILL can't even consider being a goodie. (Looking at the board on which I've been lurking, Goodies are'nt all that "good" either, though; what the hell is the point of all this "turn you in to make you die" justice anyway? Never seen it in DK, IX or GH) You said it yourself Ruagh, you got re-equipped, not with junk, but pretty good stuff. Could that happen if there were no evils at all?

OK, I changed my mind. I DO have an idea about dwindling numbers. People who want to leave/go anon/abandon groups (erk...guilty) can do whatever they like. Let's go get REAL evils to replace them.

Let's go recruitin'!

Xisiqomelir

p.s. Azzz? PLEASE say you still play!



[This message has been edited by Xisiqomelir (edited 08-25-2002).]
Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Sun Aug 25, 2002 1:39 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Salen:
Biggest problem you have and will have isn't lack of evils, it's the overwhelming idea that if you go from good to evil, you have to 'PROVE YOURSELF' before you can be anything. Whether this stereotype is right or not is not the point. For all of SJ3 the tales of Goods going evil and getting shunned from all 'real' groups have flown; some true, some not.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just wanted to point out that this was the problem I had when I rolled my little evil. Not that I would be shunned for being a goodie, but that I would have to prove myself as an anonymous player before I would be accepted within the evil culture. I don't have a problem with proving myself... but what it led to was keeping to myself, totally soloing as a caster in nothing more than newbie gear in the often harsh environments that evil hometowns have to offer, and a great hesitancy to ask for any kind of assistance from other evils. It's not that I believed I would be "marked" as a goodie for it, but I didn't want anybody to think I was trying to leech gear or exp without trying to achieve it on my own merits. When you add to this the isolation from my normal group of friends, it gets kind of lonely.

Perhaps it was my own fault for allowing myself to feel slightly intimidated by many of the posts which have addressed the types of players who abused the evil system, but even playing a completely unknown alt in mostly newbie gear on EM recently, I never had a lack of people who sent me random tells just to chat and introduce themselves. And then there's Lilithelle, who is Evermeet's welcome wagon. She, along with several others, goes out of her way to meet every newbie that she can on the island and assist them, sometimes with lowbie gear, sometimes with exp, sometimes with just advice or company when the island is otherwise empty. Trying to move from this kind of atmosphere to one with a much higher element of isolation isn't always encouraging, especially for those who attempt the move when evils are in the low range on their numbers to begin with.

I know there are wonderful people on the evil side and I have a great deal of respect for most of the evil players I've had the pleasure to deal with, but there might be a misperception as to what the "evil" way is for players who move from the good side to the evil side. I don't consider myself a puss by any standard, but for those who want to try to "tough it out" and "take their knocks" it can be lonely and frustrating... and what's the point of that in a game?


Sigh, somebody please remove my posting privileges when I've been up for more than 24 hours? Sorry for babbling on.
Ruagh
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Postby Ruagh » Sun Aug 25, 2002 1:55 pm

Well, Salen.

First of all, let me tell you that I havent treated ex-goodies as a persons that must prove something first. For example, when the entire Sigil was treated by most evils like you said, I was understanding what it may lead to, and was doing my best to help them to become the real evils and integrate with others, because we were goddamn short on people. And I think I helped alot with that. Yes, I wasnt helping them to do evil quests - but otherwise they were warmly welcomed.

Second, about trading. It is not the matter of "if you trade you suck". It is rather a matter of typical for goodies hoarding of useless high-end items for a "trade cache". To trade for something, you are assumed to have something too, right? Thats what pisses evils off - the hoarding itself, not the trading. Did you heard about the old-school "handots", which were and sometimes still are used by evils instead of "bids". Also other issue is a trading of Taboo items, but thats a totally different story.

I hope this post has cleared things a bit.

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Ruagh The Curious Troll pokes his long nose into another none-of-his-business matter here
Gyrx
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Postby Gyrx » Sun Aug 25, 2002 2:46 pm

Huh? What?

Ruagh, we had a "no more zoning for evils" time before when you were gone too. It didn't slowly decline where we didn't notice it.

We all noticed it. This is at least the 2nd really low time in zoning as an evil, they'll come back, just like find something to keep yourself occupied.

This is nothing new.

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peACe oUt
laterZ
gyrx
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Postby Todrael » Sun Aug 25, 2002 3:01 pm

"No go dude. Evils are dead when our pbase hits 0, not before."

Yeah.

Speaking as the player with the highest playing time of anyone on the mud, I can tell you that there's nothing wrong with the evil side player base. They'll come back. They always come back.

As to all the problems, the initiations, the outcasting.. these are less of a perceived problem than you'd think. People on the evil side have attitude, and a willingness to speak their mind. No one is ever truly outcast, that I'm aware of. People the screw up are yelled at, told they won't ever zone again, then asked to go zoning again the next day. People that say they will never group with you will group with you the next day.

Why? Small pbase. We need everyone we can get, even if we don't like them. And opinions change over time, as people's skills improve, and their knowledge grows. You just have to weather the storm, so to speak. No one can stop you from zoning on the evil side. The only thing that can stop you is refusing a group. Sigil people constantly refused to zone, putting exp ahead of that. But we did ask. All the time.

Asking for help is also not nearly as bad as people think. Yes, some of the evils will call you stupid for asking. But there are also many evils, myself and Cherzra included, that will go out of our way to answer virtually any question you could conceive of.

It's not worse. It's just different.

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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
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Postby Dirjornso » Sun Aug 25, 2002 3:03 pm

Ruagh if you need extra highlevel bodys Kada is willing to go just gotta look me up I with ya anytime you wanna take me
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Postby Malacar » Sun Aug 25, 2002 4:29 pm

Not as much of a problem as -you think Todrael.. Think outside the box for a minute though...

You're already in. Your opinion is slightly colored on this one. Others have stated this issue before, and whether real or imagined, it's their opinion, and it's just as valid as yours, mine, or anyone elses.

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Malacar - omg ymir!
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Postby Snurgt » Sun Aug 25, 2002 4:48 pm

I actually started leveling an evil cleric, think he's 20 or so. The reason I stopped playing him was prolly due to the cause and effect of this problem:

The small evil pbase.

There was almost never anyone on to group with that was near to my level. Id log on, do a who evil sort, but nada. This went on for awhile. Sure, a ton of level 40+ people offered to exp me, and i'm not complaining about that Image

Maybe its the time I log on but, it just wasnt fun.

I've had high level evils in the past, dont know if this problem is specific to this wipe or not.

Another example. I wanted to level a battlechanter, but I heard from tons of evils that they wouldnt get taken to zone, not needed, etc. This may be a product of such a small pbase, but I can level a bard on the goodie side and get asked to exp, etc. So I did that.

Maybe evils dont have the luxury of being able to have the 'accessory' classes (non clerics/enchanters). But those are the classes I enjoy. Rogue/bard/ranger/dire raider if they ever open.

The evils I met were among the most friendly people on the mud. I got tons of handouts. I'd love to have an evil alt. But then i'd go back to sitting at DK fountain waiting for people to log on.

Thats just my personal experience.

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Snurgt take no prisoner
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Postby Salen » Sun Aug 25, 2002 4:49 pm

I didn't mean to offend, I'm telling you what I have seen and have had others tell me.

Seems to me that a good deal of the problem is what you want. You want new players, but you want them to be like the old players, or to make them into the old players.

The situation that Tod describes is why you have few new players, and fewer that stay. I can honestly say (with the exception of Touk long ago when I asked him to be harsh) I've never had someone say the stuff that I saw going on in multiple evil groups. Even when he was harsh, he told me, not everyone.

I'm not going to tell you how to recruit/train whatever, just that you might want to see how new players are treated. This isn't coming from a Goodie hating Ebils, but a Commincation major who has seen similar situations in real life. I've been a part of a company that couldn't keep workers, but blamed the 'poor help' without ever looking at their own training program.
Don't give away the shop, but do pay attention to what they 'need' to be good players, not necessarily just 'that's the way it's done'. While it's not quite the same, the same psychology is involved.

Anyway of my Theories of Comm. soapbox.

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Postby Ambar » Sun Aug 25, 2002 4:55 pm

All I am gonna say is this

if i can do it .. anyone can! i never made it a secret i was raised a goodie ... that my background was that of a pretty toy that sat at 3w mostly .. in like 4 years as a goodie i zoned twice .. once to jot .. once to vault... my life consisted of trips to BG for elites, or WD groups that did tower spectres and wall elites ...

all this and i STILL find myself guilded with the best players on the mud!

none EVER outcasted me or banned me from groups ... sure people knew my name from WAAAY back, hell it surprised me to know people rememebered little Shalia Prowlingwolf ... noone ever told me not to tell anyone i was a goodie convert (never played a goodie this wipe, and last wipe the hioghest my druid got was lvl 43 ...... my highest goodie this wipe is a lvl 20 nekkid grey elf warrior))

i love the evil side .. they are the ones who gave me the chance to show my colors, to prove my lack of skills (or maybe the fact i stuck it out and levelled an Ogre Shaman to 50??)

from the beginning i always got groups ... sure sometimes it is hard to find a warrior or healer ..but thats just a fact of a smaller playerbase ... i have found acceptance where i never did on the goodie side ... it cracks me up that people who dont play evil think we outcast people because they are a goodie prime ... sure we may do things a little different, but we generally welcome new people ... the only warning i give goodies is that we dont shout for groups or to sell eq, ask any of the people i know who play goodies .. i tell them all :P it's also standard practice to say ... OOO goodie convert! look at all the goodrace eq (yes its obvious:P) other than that, play the character YOU chose and enjoy, have fun, expect to be teased by me, i tease EVERYONE not just a few ...

anyway, Crimson Coalition .. i love ya guys .. hugs and kisses for you all!

-Ambar/Telina
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Postby rylan » Sun Aug 25, 2002 5:44 pm

I think late august/early september is usually a really slow time for the mud, since lots of people are heading back to college... and the vacation frenzy before labor day too. Wait a few weeks and it should pick up again. Theres been a lot less people on the mud in general lately, not just on the evil side.
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Postby Gormal » Sun Aug 25, 2002 7:37 pm

seems to me that this is a problem for people on both sides sometimes...but always more so for evils. It always works best if you have some irl friends to start up with you...gauranteed partner to group with.

There are so many zones to do now that don't require uber groups...you'd be suprised what you can do if you get creative with what you have...we did globeless vault the other day with nothing but a shaman to stone.

Don't get too stressed... always remember that your corpse is always your responsibility.... you enter any area knowing the risks you take or that there could be a risk...its part of the adventure.

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Gormal Stoneforge -Hammerstrike-

"Forward Mithrilguard!"
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Postby Kallinar » Sun Aug 25, 2002 8:02 pm

I was raised a goodie too.
People ask me, "Who was your first character?"
I respond, "Gulraex the barbarian berzerker, way back in 1994."
They say, "Not too familiar with that name."
I say, "I know, I don't leave a very lasting impression on people it seems."
Kallinar stopped being played due to my never leaving any sort of lasting impression with people. All these gobs and gobs of goodies always on, and Kallinar rarely even got asked to do a noob cr or something.

Fast Forward to the intro of Dire Raiders.
I had been playing Zungar Eye Gone (Yes I am him as well) for a while and lo and behold, the evil equivilant (well they are better actually cackle) of the ranger was introduced for p-testing. I slid myself into a dire raider qith a little bit of elbow grease, and leveled up to 40 in little time.
Lately, most of the time I am doing the same role Kallinar served for most of his playtime. Holding up the fountain, being DK fountain trash.
(Thats right Muma. I graduated Magna Cum laude from Waterdeep Fountain trash and went on to get a Masters in DK Fountain trash! Image)

The difference is, I don't mind too much the fact that nobody wants to talk to me/group me as Tiryar. Why? The number of evils that are on compared to the number of goodies that were on when I played Kallinar. I was the Co-Founder of a freakin guild, and even my guildmates ignored me for the most part. Being an evil was like a cold drink of water for a man who had been walking thru the desert known as "being a goodie".
I was accepted. I walk around with a ton of goodberries in my bag, and get no flack for it. I do my job in a zone group, and I try to roleplay when there are others there that are doing so also. I also give back to the evil community, same as I did for the godies. I spend time tryin to help the noob characters get levels. I don't make a very good tank, but I do what I can. You need help? If I ain't at school or helping someone else, and I am on as Tiryar, you can be sure I will do what I can to hook ya up.
That is the mentality of MANY of the evils that still do play. There are a few that have the same attitude that I tried to escape by going evil for a while, but hey, there's always the rest of the evil crew, who welcomed me with open arms and made me FEEL welcome as a noob evil. Thanks to people like Zusuh, Turxx, the big AXX, and all the rest of the Blood Raiders, Nilan, Ambar/Telina, Ruagh, and a whole slew of others.
I would also like to thank Azzmohazz. He was the one that introduced me to the true nature of the way a evil player behaved. I miss him and wish I could have gotten to know him as an evil, rather than just as Kallinar.

Anyhow, I am rambling, but let it be known, playing an evil character is not as hard as some of these folks make it out to be. There are few evils that will tell you to piss off due to your background. If you have a spanky set of gear on a noob and an evil asks who your alt is, Be HONEST. I was, and I never got any flack. I play the game, and I am friendly to all. That is all that is required (and should be required) to play this game no matter where you go.

Go evils!

Kallinar was here.

[This message has been edited by Kallinar (edited 08-25-2002).]
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Postby Dulzuth » Sun Aug 25, 2002 8:14 pm

Speaking of coming back....! I've been gone for the last month to get a life, er I mean studying and stuff. :P I've got a lot more free time now and I'll be around quite a bit more, so get to learn all these new cool zones so I can lead spankage Image



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Verzul / Dulzuth - Jabbuk D'faer - Orbdrin D'oloth
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Postby kiryan » Sun Aug 25, 2002 10:31 pm

feast or famine, its the way of the evils.

number of players online, classes, everything.

Its easy to pick events and come up with broad statements that on paper produce a cause and effect relationship, and while I'm sure some things some evils do turn people off and contribute to a lower pbase or temporal lack of desire to log on, some of these things are why people play evil.

I think a lot of the evils play hardcore and once in a while need a break to fix RL problems or just time off.

When your pbase isn't 5 deep in every class or 15 people with alts of every major class your gonna have times when you can't zone. If you want to be able to zone more often... help the low level people (which there are usually at least 5-10 of) or roll the classes that prevent you from zoning... cleric, enchanter, shaman

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where ara you my rittle raabuuri
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Postby Eza » Mon Aug 26, 2002 2:50 am

After constant pushing from Zusuk to make an evil, I finally gave in and made a duergar rogue. I had a lot of fun with her, exping, getting to know people, etc. There are a *lot* of nice evils out there.

However, once I got to a level with my duergar where I *could* zone, I went every chance I got. And you know what? I got treated like I was nobody. People telling me I didn't know what I was doing, talking shit to me in tells, etc.

I *NEVER* got treated like that as Eza. Not even when I really was a newbie and didn't know what was going on. People talked to me, grouped me, took the time to help me understand things I just didn't get.

I don't know if it's because of the fact that I was a goodie or what, but things like that don't help you keep players on your side.

I appreciate the people who were nice to me, but for those of you who weren't.. you have no room to complain about losing players.

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- Booty Assasin -
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Postby Rurga » Mon Aug 26, 2002 4:44 am

Evils for the majority are pretty damn nice. I have atleast 3, or 4 high level chars. One of which is my troll warrior. I started out small, and made the sigil with a few others. I already had a pretty decent set of crap, so that wasn't really a concern. It was just getting the levels which most people will probably agree is the most completely annoying part of any character. I hate exp, but lord knows i've done enough of it for a few level 50's, ask most people who know me.

Anyway, way off tangent. I think evils will pop back in soon enough. School's just starting up again, everyones tryings to get adjusted, and it'll go back to being able to zone whenever there is a zone to do.

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Rurga Split Skull
http://members.rogers.com/zerolove/nicetallglass.jpg
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Postby Ensis » Mon Aug 26, 2002 12:06 pm

It's true Evils are nice, I haven't seen the "Prove Yourself" thing ever. I've even admitted to being a goodie and most people have said "righton, come along"

But I have the same problem as Snurgt, I always log back onto my Goodie when there is nothing to do on the darkside, and thats pretty often. Even on the good side there isn't a ton to do.

I don't think it's the fault of either side, I think the factioning is crippling the mud. The playerbase isn't that vast on either side.. on Raugh's log he showed 36 goodies and 6 evils.. thats still only 42 people, that is NOT a big number.

Even at the biggest there are what, 120 peeps on?.. thats about 1/3 of how it was in S1, and thats when a good amount of people were outcasted and could group with either side.

Is it really that inconceivable to consider outcasting again? I'm sure there would be a way to hardcode it, and I know there are a bunch of evil aligned goodies that would hop on the chance.

I don't want to hijack Ruagh's post so i'll make a new one about that.



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Ensis Inferni
Bish Enterprises Inc.
All Rights Reserved
Copyright 1999 Fydollaho Productions.
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Postby Malacar » Mon Aug 26, 2002 3:12 pm

It's summer people. Wait til early October before calling for outcasting again.

That's when half the playerbase will suddenly resurface.

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Malacar - omg ymir!
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Postby Gyrx » Mon Aug 26, 2002 3:46 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Eza:
However, once I got to a level with my duergar where I *could* zone, I went every chance I got. And you know what? I got treated like I was nobody. People telling me I didn't know what I was doing, talking shit to me in tells, etc. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You must be zoning with the wrong players, because I talk to the new people all the time in tells and ask them how they're going, and I havn't heard something like that in awhile. And it wasn't the new person that suffered, we just told the asshole to quit, and if they didn't they don't come.

Sorry you had to experience that.

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peACe oUt
laterZ
gyrx
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Postby rachaz » Mon Aug 26, 2002 8:25 pm

I felt I had to post on here since it was a thread about goodies going evil. There are three things that I would like to point out.

If you are nice to people they will be nice back most of the time. Good or evil, there are going to be people who are mean. If you ask me how to get out of Ghore, I probably will not run up to get you but I will try to give you directions. I know some trolls who run up there. With goodies if one person doesn't answer your questions or help you how you like, there are many more to move on to. This is not the case with evils. People who roll an evil need to realize that fact, we are all people behind the keys and some of us just aren't nice. I do try my best to help newbies (though I do not plevel them like some do) I usually try to help by offering information.

The second issue is that by all means you should prove yourself to evils if you come from good. But you do not have to prove yourself to snag an exp group. You most likely will not have to prove yourself to do many of the zones we go on. But if you want to zone on the top level (good or evil) you need to prove yourself. Many of us have been grouping together a lot and we know most of our habits. Even if you are a high level goodie, we do not know your habits. However, you are given this chance to prove yourself.

Lastly, I get a vibe from people posting in this thread that because they have a high level goodie they deserve more than others. I will take Eza's post as an example. If I levelled up a goodie out of no where to level 40 (this is where you CAN zone), I would not expect to walk up to Dornax or whoever leads for goodies and be grouped to do Muspelheim unconditionally. Part of this reason is (see issue 2) and another part is that he has his own people to group. Evils will probably take you zoning if you are a new player but if there are 14 Crimson Coalition members in a group and one Eza, you should expect to feel outside. That is not just an evil vs. good thing, it is a guild thing. There is usually only 1 evil zone group going out to zones. If that group is a group of guildmates, you should be happy to be a part not upset when you don't fit in as well.

The following things are true:

1. If you play evil, you will be given a chance to be accepted

2. If you play evil, you will have opportunities to do the pickup zone as well as the well planned out Avernus assault. All are usually welcome to zones.

3. If you get yelled at, it is not wise to quit. It may be their mistake to yell at you but perhaps you made a mistake too?

4. We do not care if people have goodie alts but do get annoyed if you zone as evil to equip a goodie then stop playing evil.

The following things are NOT true:

1. If we know you are a goodie we'll hate you.

2. No one will help you quest spells. Ask all the many clerics Jaznolg has helped get ress for example.

3. There is no one to group with. If it is clear that there are no high level zone groups out and you see some high level evils on, try sending one of them a tell saying, "hey you got a low level alt you feel like levelling? Im making an exp group!" You would be surprised at the positive response you would get.
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Postby Eza » Mon Aug 26, 2002 8:46 pm

First off, I'd like to say that I didn't write my first post to call all evils assholes and tell you how rotten you are. In fact, I think the opposite of most all of you.

That being said, I didn't make an evil to automatically be excepted and taken in as everyone's best friend. I just wanted to give it a try because of the fact that I already had a high level goodie. I didn't want to walk in and say "Ooh look at me. Love me because I have a high level goodie." I never did that, and never would.

I intentionally kept who I was from people to avod that. I wanted to be given the fair chance based on who I am. The chance that evils so pride themselves on giving others, and that was simply denied by some people. The way they showed it was just rude, and I think that kind of thing is intolerable from goodies or evils. The ones that did give me a chance did so without hesitation or reserve, and I *love* that.

I don't expect anything from anyone. Least of all here. I have no right to. I fully intended to stop playing Eza for good and stay as an evil, but after the things that were said and done to me.. they weren't things that should be said or done to *anyone*, so.. I don't want to be there any more. That easily, you lose one evil player. Maybe I'm the only one to leave for that reason, but I doubt it.

Yes, we are real people, so don't make everyone feel like they have to prove themselves and live up to whatever standards you have. Nobody has anything to prove to any of us.

I think there are some great people out there. More good than bad, actually. I love this place and wouldn't give it up for anything. But behavior like that just cheapens the place I've come to know and love.

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- Booty Assasin -

[This message has been edited by Eza (edited 08-26-2002).]
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Postby Blung » Mon Aug 26, 2002 9:17 pm

Remember this, playing Evils is defining the odd.

If you can't survive in that environment, then you are not suited to be evil. I believe there is a asterisk next to each evil race.

At least 65 to 80% of the Evils population are the same people that play in S2. If you get to know them, most of them don't mind doing the same zone over and over again until everyone in group have that item.

Which lead me to why some of the old school stop playing, not alot of challenge left. Once you pretty much decked out.When the game only have 1 tier, and you are just about at that tier, you either quit or find tone your character to perfection. Or con't playing because you love the game.



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Blung take no prisoner.
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Postby sok » Mon Aug 26, 2002 11:01 pm

After reading all that I'm gonna make a Guide for a Smooth Evil Transition

1. When asked you is your alt there are usually 3 responses are:
a: i was a high lvl goodie (mix response)
b: i am a newbie (mix response)
c: i am blung sh*thead you better lvl my ass before i kick your ass. (greatest upside)

2. When criticized about your mudding ability, you should respond with:
a: i'm sorry wont happen again (mix)
b: i'm a newbie (sympathy)
c: i am turg bungholio and my schlong is greater than yours, so you better keep your trap close or else (not only do you get their respect, but there will also be penis envy)

3. Do you want to zone:
a: i can't cuz my wife cut my phone line, kiryan? (you will only get laughed at)
b: sure, i luv to zone (kissass)
c: ok, but i'm Teyaha and i been mudding here for 1500 years so i better get some respect or else i will viddotape having mudgoatsex. (beside Gormal, u will only get Ostriahized)

Are you female in rl:
a: of course, is my name not Gura, a female troll stands here
b: of course, does Lurgo sound masculine to you?
c: of course, you want proof, check you www.bigfatogreshamannameAmbar.com

Should i be infra or ultra:
a: Ultra you stupid (Jegzed)
b: Infra you stupid (Sok)
c: (plz use Russian accent, eventho he's not) I'm Cherzra you American pigs, and I can kick you Egocentric ass (cherzra hard guy to make fun of)

I would continue but ran out of materials
Todrael, Nilan, Yssilk, SSlarris, Ezza, etc, etc, etc, etc

dang there are too many evils to list, you guys need to stop playing so i dont have to mention your name.
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Postby Azenilsee » Tue Aug 27, 2002 1:37 am

Thanks Sok, you made me laugh for a good 10 minutes.

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Azenilsee - Faern Dalharil - Orbdrin D'Oloth
Jasix Prowlingwolf
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Postby Jasix Prowlingwolf » Tue Aug 27, 2002 3:37 am

Hehehe what makes me chuckle every time is...

Hehehehe it don't matter if you play a goodie or an evil... There are assholes on both sides, people that look down on others just because they are not '3l1t3 or some crap' enough to never make mistakes....

I have great friends on the evil's side and on the goodies side, but in the same token i have people i would call enemies or *&%&$^% cocksuckers if you like... This doesn't make evils or goodies any better then the other... Just because YOu feel evils are more freindly really doesn't mean they are... it's just your biased opinion...

Now what would possibly make a difference would be if these so-called "really friendly and helpful evils" played higher lvl goodies to show us how really good they are...

But then i know we would just hear the usual bullshit like "I used to play a goodie but they sucked so now i am an evil knob polisher" Both sides of the fence are the same except maybe the evils have like 10 people to play with and the goodies have 50.... why is that? Could it be because most of us are not good enough to play evils? chuckle. nope I would say 90% of us have played evils and worked out fairly fast we get treated better and nicer with the goodies...

My point being, even if the evils are really nice and helpful, there will always be 5 nice and helpful goodies to your 1 nice evil... why? because the numbers just dont stack up on the evils.. Less players usually means less nice people....

It's just a percentage unless of course ALL the evils are nice and helpful and only 10% of the goodies are... I think NOT!

People are people, there is good and bad on both sides of the fence, so I think it's time everyone woke up and saw that evils are no better then the goodies and visa versa...


I'm sure a lot of you will disagree, but a lot of the time the better a mudder is the bigger an asshoel they are... why? because they tend to beleive to much of the crap their buttlickers tell them and not enough of the slamemrs that dont agree with them...

If NO ONE at all has anything bad to say about you then you might be able to think you are a fantastic person... but those people are rare and getting less all the time... and usualy have the modesty to not think so good about themselves..

Self praise is no recommendation...

Jasix "can't mud, can't sing & can't give a rats ass what anyone thinks anyway"



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Jasix Prowlingwolf
Protector of Clan Prowlingwolf
celara
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Postby celara » Tue Aug 27, 2002 5:14 am

Im not going to take the time to read like 30 or so long posts, but...

As for "prove yourself"....

That is the super duris mentality. If you havent played there and have friends, they
will pkill you over and over and over on the
evil side until you dont play it anymore.

I have also noticed this to a lesser extent on sojourn.

Quite frankly it sucks to have it this way. Its why I dont play duris.
Celery


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Just as soon as I belong/Then its time I disappear
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Postby rachaz » Tue Aug 27, 2002 6:43 am

It is rediculous to think that you do not have to prove yourself. It is not your given right to be taken to a zone. Some of us learned this the hard way, others fool themselves and talk badly about the leaders that do not ask them to come along.

This is true with goodies and evils alike.

I'd write more on this subject but I am beating a dead horse.
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Postby Tesil2 » Tue Aug 27, 2002 7:34 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by sok:
<B>After reading all that I'm gonna make a Guide for a Smooth Evil Transition

1. When asked you is your alt there are usually 3 responses are:
a: i was a high lvl goodie (mix response)
b: i am a newbie (mix response)
c: i am blung sh*thead you better lvl my ass before i kick your ass. (greatest upside)

2. When criticized about your mudding ability, you should respond with:
a: i'm sorry wont happen again (mix)
b: i'm a newbie (sympathy)
c: i am turg bungholio and my schlong is greater than yours, so you better keep your trap close or else (not only do you get their respect, but there will also be penis envy)

3. Do you want to zone:
a: i can't cuz my wife cut my phone line, kiryan? (you will only get laughed at)
b: sure, i luv to zone (kissass)
c: ok, but i'm Teyaha and i been mudding here for 1500 years so i better get some respect or else i will viddotape having mudgoatsex. (beside Gormal, u will only get Ostriahized)

Are you female in rl:
a: of course, is my name not Gura, a female troll stands here
b: of course, does Lurgo sound masculine to you?
c: of course, you want proof, check you www.bigfatogreshamannameAmbar.com

Should i be infra or ultra:
a: Ultra you stupid (Jegzed)
b: Infra you stupid (Sok)
c: (plz use Russian accent, eventho he's not) I'm Cherzra you American pigs, and I can kick you Egocentric ass (cherzra hard guy to make fun of)

I would continue but ran out of materials
Todrael, Nilan, Yssilk, SSlarris, Ezza, etc, etc, etc, etc

dang there are too many evils to list, you guys need to stop playing so i dont have to mention your name. </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

roflmao....I got the cops called on me because I was laughing so hard!!!!
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Postby Ambar » Tue Aug 27, 2002 9:42 am

www.Ambarpeersatherbigfatassandsmiles.com

Eza sweetie I'm so sorry someone hurt your feelings... I'd sure love to know who that is so I can kick their ass Image

I try really hard to help anyone I can .. I run up to Ghore and get little trolls out all the time .. I word back to Faang to rescue Ogres all the time .. I run people to TP frome DK and from Ghore all the time to show them them way .. I show people the way from DK to HP ... I run to Thunderhead to help people with quests .. I love to help people .. I love the fact people helped me .. now it's my turn ... I give new players eq when I can (i dont have a lot of extra but i give what i can)

Jasix , you are absolutely, hands down, my best friend on the goodie side (And we both know I count you as one of the handful of REAL friends i truly treasure).. and I loved the fact you rolled an evil to play with me (err no pun intended) ... but you always stayed anon! I say it over and over and over i hate anon! (not just yours ANYONE's) I am sure your troll would have gotten lots of groups had you togged anon off and shown your level, or started grouping with a lot of different people ... level 35+ trolls are always needed! .. (woot TANK!)

Evils vs Goodies is a long discussed topic, one that is beat down and trod on .. and can be taken many ways ... I always ask new people that are decked out who their alt is .. do i care? no .. just trying to see their experience level ... this doesnt make me a bad person for wanting to know ... and i respect those that dont want to say (and always assume its a good race player trying evil ... Yosgoh who the hell are you :P)

I personally prefer playing evil, but then again I was never a really high level on the goodie side (lvl 43 or 44 is not high level) Did I have to prove myself? Sure .. I started small .. xp groups til i was big enough to take on small pickup zones .. smaller zones lead to bigger ones, grouping with the same people all the time got me guilded (You tell Rachaz 'sure lotta red in this group isnt there?' Rachaz tells you 'yup .. sure looks good doesnt it?') I don't think I went through anything different that any player has to go thru .. you start small and eventually you get the tiamat group ... I assume this would have been the same if i had started as a goodie this wipe ... I have been told it's cause I'm female that I have been treated so well but i think it's BS .. you don't zone with someone unless you trust them ...

Proving yourself doesn't mean anything arrogant or *leet* .. it means i dont trust my character to just ANY leader ... I don't care if you are a lvl 50 (insert goodie group leader here) who leads all goodie groups .. you dont know the dynamics of evil zoning grous (ultra is a REAL challenge unless u understand how to overcome it .. NO innate darkness does NOT work) ....i dont trust just any tank (i dont care if you are lvl 45 you appeared outta nowhere and how the hell do i know what notch your rescue skill is? ... could be 35 and we all spank)

Proving yourself means knowing your character .. means knowing when to rescue and when not to rescue .. means knowing when to autobash when not to ... means knowing what spells to cast when .. means knowing if there is a higher level shaman in the group you dont friggin cast ancestral fury unless you first discuss it with them ... Proving yourself includes so much I can't think of everything ...

I just know when I log on I get tells like 'log Ambar on NOW, we need her' ..and i LOVE it (even if i do whine that i can't take Telina :P:P) ...

Another thing that bugs the shit outta me is this ... My alt uses my primes eq .. stop looking at Telina and saying OMG your alt is better equipped than my prime .. it is Ambar's eq dammit :P If you looked at the one who is not logged on you'd see a nekkid char (except the mage gear i leave on Telina and the priest gear i leave on Ambar) I had to borrow 2K to buy a damn tinker bag for my mage!!

OK I am stepping off my soapbox let the flames begin Image .. I just spent 20 minutes on one post :P

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Ambar -= Beloved Matron =- Crimson Coalition
Zogur
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Postby Zogur » Tue Aug 27, 2002 1:37 pm

On the up side, the small player base makes evils actually want me in zone groups or at least pretend to!

<BLINK>This could happen to you!</BLINK>

Zogur

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rescue (0) (unlearned)
Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Aug 27, 2002 3:27 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ambar:
Did I have to prove myself? Sure .. I started small .. xp groups til i was big enough to take on small pickup zones .. smaller zones lead to bigger ones, grouping with the same people all the time got me guilded (You tell Rachaz 'sure lotta red in this group isnt there?' Rachaz tells you 'yup .. sure looks good doesnt it?') I don't think I went through anything different that any player has to go thru .. you start small and eventually you get the tiamat group ... </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's the same way it is on the goodie side, and I don't think it's proving yourself, I think it's more like growing with your character. Seems like you'd have to "prove" yourself less on the evil side. I have a lot of competition on the goodie side, and there's no way anybody's gonna take me zoning if I'm a total screwup and there are other level 50's of my class to take along instead of me. There are nights where I've seen three dscalers on the goodie side, two were busy and the other was just sitting, we wanted to go to a particularly nasty zone, but our only choice was that particular chanter and we chose to not zone because we knew that chanter couldn't handle it. I know of one particular player a lot of goodies tend to avoid for zoning groups because they're SO awful who has a high level evil and seems to be thriving over there. Of course we also have nights where our choices are severely limited, and if we want to do anything we just have to adapt to the player's quirks and hope for the best.

Perhaps goodies and evils really aren't as different as a lot of people want to think they are? Maybe with a little less yelling they'd attract some more topnotch players who want to zone and have fun... everybody makes mistakes, right? Even the people doing the yelling.
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Postby Caedym » Tue Aug 27, 2002 4:22 pm

Would most of you please mind reading your own posts before you hit the submit reply button?

I've never seen such a massive collage of useless and unending blabber-jabber on a possible interesting topic before in my life.

Stop with the “I have something to say on this so I’ll just toss up useless piles of crap that I think until my fingers are tired and hit send.”

As for my input on this topic,

I believe there are SIGNIFICANT problems within the current evil society (that are both here on the BBS and on the MUD), or I wouldn’t constantly be seeing evils rolling up goodies, and they in turn talking their friends into following suit it because of how much nicer they are being treated by goodie players.

If you have 5 people in a group, and 3 say in so many words (this means I’m paraphrasing), “I’m elite and you’re not” so only 3 people ever get anything, what do you honestly think the other 2 will eventually do?

Leave.

Duh.

It’s not brain surgery.

-Caedym Shadowhock –Some dude working for Oghma

PS. If I insulted you and you posted here, my apologies, but know that I already felt insulted by myriad of unproductive posts in this thread. If you contributed to that pile of useless jargon, then perhaps I’m not so sorry.




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Disoputlip
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Postby Disoputlip » Tue Aug 27, 2002 5:13 pm

Evils sux
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Postby moritheil » Tue Aug 27, 2002 5:54 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Xisiqomelir:
<B>AND YOU SAY ITS ALL OVER?!

No go dude. Evils are dead when our pbase hits 0, not before. Look, I've never had much time to concentrate on MUDding until now; proved by my Grand Accumulated Total of 6 days of playtime and just 24 levels over 11 RL months, so I'm probably more n00b than someone who's been on consistently from just a fortnight ago, but I don't see that much has changed from the Evil attitudes of last year. My even n00ber friend Donuktanam (the D2 player) has been SHOWERED with eq from big evils (thanks Cherzra, Todrael, Izz, Ssissiv! Image; he keeps looking at me dazed (we sometimes play from a LAN gaming shop) and asking "Are these guys for real?". It's been a nice change for him to come to a game where players treat someone who's pretty small and puny to them now with a little generosity. It's that culture of gaming which ensures that when the aforementioned become unpuny, they'll remember where their dwarven scales came from so many lvls ago, and repay in full heals and gheals and resses and shifts into perpetuity.

Let's go recruitin'!

Xisiqomelir

p.s. Azzz? PLEASE say you still play!
[This message has been edited by Xisiqomelir (edited 08-25-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Azzzmohazzz is indeed quite uber.
He's been called away for some RL stuff but we eagerly await his return. Goodies and ebils alike.

I salute this ebil, Xisi. He is the stuff of which l33tness is made. Rock on.

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Iyara tells you 'ahh! hey, you're the spank guy huh - I've seen your logs!'
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Postby Rausrh » Tue Aug 27, 2002 7:01 pm

I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone get insulted by unproductively on a BBS before. That's a man with high expectations.

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Rausrh licks you.
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Postby Ambar » Tue Aug 27, 2002 11:01 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Caedym:
<B>Would most of you please mind reading your own posts before you hit the submit reply button?

I've never seen such a massive collage of useless and unending blabber-jabber on a possible interesting topic before in my life.

Stop with the “I have something to say on this so I’ll just toss up useless piles of crap that I think until my fingers are tired and hit send.”

As for my input on this topic,

I believe there are SIGNIFICANT problems within the current evil society (that are both here on the BBS and on the MUD), or I wouldn’t constantly be seeing evils rolling up goodies, and they in turn talking their friends into following suit it because of how much nicer they are being treated by goodie players.

If you have 5 people in a group, and 3 say in so many words (this means I’m paraphrasing), “I’m elite and you’re not” so only 3 people ever get anything, what do you honestly think the other 2 will eventually do?

Leave.

Duh.

It’s not brain surgery.

-Caedym Shadowhock –Some dude working for Oghma

PS. If I insulted you and you posted here, my apologies, but know that I already felt insulted by myriad of unproductive posts in this thread. If you contributed to that pile of useless jargon, then perhaps I’m not so sorry.


</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

huh?? did you read your OWN post before you hit reply?? Maybe I'm just dumb and fail to see your point? Do you not realize that a lot of your goodie counterparts roll evils every day?? Peer .... I guess maybe the *evils* on our side are more apparant becaue there are fewer of us??

---Ambar the elite and damn nice Ogre
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Postby Caedym » Fri Aug 30, 2002 6:05 am

Ambar,

Ask yourself a good question if you honestly don't think there is something wrong with evils:

Why, (like this thread we have here), are the majority of evil posters only from CC and OD members?

Yes I'm sure we'll soon hear from Turxx, who isn't in CC or OD, just as we've heard from Sok and Caz who always chime in.

That's not what I'm trying to direct your attention towards. I'm indicating those evils who don't normally post so numerously and aren’t in CC or OD (the evil zoning guilds I think we can safely say), why they aren't here expressing their views about why evils aren't zoning anymore, and their concerns with that?

Especially those evils who play regularly, or at least have more playing time in current months then Sok or Caz.

In other words my dear, why do we seem to be only hearing from the ‘haves’ and not the ‘have-nots’ about this?


Now don’t go implying that’s because CC and OD are the zoners and others aren’t, because as we all know CC and OD rely on each other as much as they rely on other non-CC and non-OD members to zone. In other words, the rest of the evil race community.

Where are the posts from the current Blood Raider members? The current Sigil members. Or former Evil Alliance members and Brigand members?

Why aren’t they here voicing their opinions?


Has the evil empire corrupted the galaxy?


I sense a disturbance in the force. Don’t you?


Caedym Shadowhock –some dude working for Oghma

Ps. Seriously, ask yourself why? I’m not trying to slam you, I’m trying to open your eyes.



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Postby Jegzed » Fri Aug 30, 2002 6:36 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Caedym:
Where are the posts from the current Blood Raider members? The current Sigil members. Or former Evil Alliance members and Brigand members?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of the evils posting here.
6 !guilded (Ruagh, Disoputlip, Silsaturer, Xisiqomelir, Kada, Rausrh, Blung )
7 cc (Cherzra, Jegzed, Gyrx, Todrael, Ambar, Rachaz, Zogur)
2 OD (Verzul, Azenilsee)
1 Blood Raider (Tiryar)
2 Seething Darkness (Caz, Sok)
1 Sigil (Rurga)
14 goodies (Salen, Ashiwi, Tanji, Malacar, Snurgt, Rylan, Gormal, Eza, Ensis, Jasix, Celara, Tesil, Moritheil, Caedym)


33 different people answered here.
19 evils, 14 goodies.
9 of 19 evils was CC and OD.

I'm pretty certain that other than CC and OD posted here.

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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
Jegzed
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Postby Jegzed » Fri Aug 30, 2002 6:39 am

I've led 15 zones the last 2 weeks..
Here is how many times each person have been with me. (And I keep track of this and a lot of other stuff to make fair splits.)

Cherzra 15
Bukra 15
Zogur 14
Todrael 13
Ambar 8
Zoldren 8
Disoputlip 7
Dosarilog 7
Babo 7
Baikalisan 6
Azenilsee 5
Yosgoh 5
Zusuk 4
Sslarris 4
Narsliss 4
Oosh 4
Zazyg 4
Ssissiv 3
Nassis 3
Raburi 3
Gamorakul 3
Lurgo 2
Ruagh 2
Zissus 2
Rivi 2
Starq 2
Turra 2
Jaznolg 2
Dizid 2
Vjaerrak 2
Immuninne 1
Zalkenai 1
Mohum 1
Zipalodok 1
Targsk 1
Allayulix 1
Turxx 1
Yugpug 1
Tassum 1
Zajan 1
Suzalize 1
Dungap 1
Ssryth 1
Istari 1
Ellana 1
Targsk 1




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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
Caedym
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Postby Caedym » Fri Aug 30, 2002 7:36 am

Jegzed,


I asked Ambar,
“Why, (like this thread we have here), are the majority of evil posters only from CC and OD members?”

As you said 9 out of 19 evil posters on this thread are CC and OD. So roughly 40% of those evils who posted in this thread are from CC or OD?

Thanks for confirming. I’d say they sure won the election.

Oh btw, Rurga isn’t a current Sigil member. He is former. As you saw from your repeating of my words, I was asking for current.

Sorry you didn’t get that memo about Rurga.

-----------
There is a distinct difference between those who are no longer living in your world and those who are. Those who aren’t wouldn’t be afraid to voice their opinions because of fear or repercussions against them.
-----------

Catching on?

Caedym Shadowhock –some dude working for Oghma that almost never uses quotes but this one seems oddly appropriate

“You better wake up. The world you live in is just a sugar-coated topping. There is another world, beneath it – the real world.” -Blade


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[This message has been edited by Caedym (edited 08-30-2002).]
Caedym
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Postby Caedym » Fri Aug 30, 2002 7:36 am

Double Post Bug Grr

[This message has been edited by Caedym (edited 08-31-2002).]
Ambar
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Postby Ambar » Fri Aug 30, 2002 9:41 am

It seems to me the *playas* posted ... the poeple that are usually on if you who evil s (or the people that populate the BBS cause some dont believe it or not ...... which brings me to another point ... the who evil sort ... comprises MAINLY of CC/OD at the top with a few exceptions (rofl i remember pre-50 ... Jegzed group says 'Ambar dammit get 50 you are throwing our who ingroup off :P') .... OD/CC hold most of the leaders, again with very few exceptions ... check your big zones and see who leads them ...

.. as to me being a HAVE? Sure .. and I'm damn proud of it .. I have worked my ass off to be where I am .. my goal from day one when i created my first char (this wipe) was to be in either OD/CC ... well I did it ... and again i am DAMN proud!!!

-and one more time .. for the slow readers .. err..

It's summer time ... summer time is bad for muds!!! school is just gettin started again .. wait til people re-learn their schedules, and get situated .. we willl be back in force ....

-Ambar \|/ Elitist Pig \|/ - Crimson Coalition -

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