Recent changes to hide

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
Zen
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Recent changes to hide

Postby Zen » Mon Sep 16, 2002 12:41 am

The recent changes to hide aren't helpful in the least. Perhaps it prevents repeated assassination attempts or some such non-sense on the part of rogue, but in terms of CR'ing they cripple rouges greatly.

I would like to make the following suggestions, rather than simply rant.

First, make track check opposed to sneak. Innate sneak should give a chance to avoid being tracked in certain areas, and rogue sneak should give a high, but failable, chance to avoid being tracked. Also make it level related so those uber badass mobs remain scary, but as it is you can't even have a rogue hide to hold the pop after an FP spank.

Second, allow us to track hidden mobs under the same guidlines. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If we have a spell you can bet that mobs do as well, procs is onething, but this is silly.

Third, I'd settle for putting it back the way it was. After doing a multiple death grisly cr because the mobs kept tracking the rogues, this isn't a good thing.

-Zenriel

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Postby Malacar » Mon Sep 16, 2002 12:43 am

Anything to slaughter more mortals, as they say.

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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Sep 16, 2002 12:50 am

::cough::
It wouldn't suck so bad if mobs didn't search you out before your hide lag was even done.
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Postby rylan » Mon Sep 16, 2002 12:52 am

So do mobs track to hidden rogues and magically attack them now? Or do they search? And if so, do the mbos have the same search lag like PCs? I haven't seen the change in action yet so I'm wondering.

If so, it does destroy some of the best abilities of rogues, which is CRing people from nasty areas and holding pops if the rest of the group spanks (and then cring them).

[This message has been edited by rylan (edited 09-15-2002).]
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Postby Yayaril » Mon Sep 16, 2002 1:08 am

If mobs can track hidden players, the reverse should be true.

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-Yayaril
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Postby Tanji Smanji » Mon Sep 16, 2002 1:14 am

Aye, just got searched out before hide lag was over and about slaughtered. I'd just love to know how every tracking mob suddenly got innate sense life.

And as usual, mobs have basically 0 lag from searching.
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Sep 16, 2002 1:15 am

BAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

A Loose Cobblestone
The cobblestone pathway leads to west and east, however in this section one
of the cobblestones is very loose, whereas the rest of the pathway looks very
secure. On either side of the cobblestone, the grass is very thick and looks
like it could easily grow right over the cobblestone if someone would let it.
The grass around the loose cobblestone is dead and in some places there is only
dirt, as if someone or something has pushed the loose cobblestone aside. A very
large building can seen towards the north, while the Black Griffin Road can
seen towards the southwest.
Room size: Large (L:50 ft W:50 ft H:20 ft)
Exits: - North - East - South - West
A bored ogre passes through on his way to the goblin marches.
You escape southward!

< 656h/656H 119v/137V >
< > You attempt to hide yourself.

< 656h/656H 119v/137V >
< >
An untamed wolfhound prowls in from the north.

< 656h/656H 120v/137V >
< >
An untamed wolfhound finds a secret entrance!

< 656h/656H 124v/137V >
< > acc this is screwed up, you don't get any message that they found you
hide
You stop trying to hide.
You ASSOC: 'this is screwed up, you don't get any message that they found you'

< 656h/656H 127v/137V >
< > You attempt to hide yourself.


Wolfhounds are smurt!
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Postby Kallinar » Mon Sep 16, 2002 1:51 am

this is my official position on this change, please do not feel insulted by my remarks Image


GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY


Thanks

Kallinar was here
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Postby Nokie » Mon Sep 16, 2002 2:12 am

"09/13/02 You Can Run....
- Tracking mobs will go after hidden players once again."

When were they able to do this before?

I agree with Yayaril, if mobs can do it, why can't players?

I also agree with Kallinar.

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Nokie 'No you don't!! That belongs to me!' Quickfingers
Yayaril
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Postby Yayaril » Mon Sep 16, 2002 2:38 am

They used to be able to track hidden players during Sojourn2. I remembered dragging gnolls around so that they would search out the verbeeg's cave for me. It makes sense- tracking should be able to locate hidden stuff.

What doesn't make sense is the tracking skill in general. It should be made more complicated if the game is being pushed towards more 'realism'. For instance- tracking flying things would be very tough. Tracking over a river and over certain terrains would hinder you, especially if there's heavy precipitation. Tracking over other terrains, like snow, desert and thick foliage would be easier. Unless of course the foe is flying or levitating, then snow or sand wouldn't make them easier to find.

Tracking on other planes, like smoke/astral/ethereal/fire/air would be pretty impossible. There's no terrain at all to leave clues. Of course, this is offset if you have some ability to track via scent. Dogs/wolves/werewolves could track down someone who is flying. Notice how complicated this is getting?

I'd also like to see sneak/hide become lagless skills. I don't understand why there's lag. Maybe a tiny bit of lag on hide, since you actually have to find a spot to hide, but not two rounds worth of lag. Sneaking is a state of mind and behaviour, and thus shouldn't lag you at all when you imput the command.

Whilst on this realism kick, let's make it so earthquake can't affect flying foes and blocking doesn't work against things you can't see.

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-Yayaril
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Postby Vilix » Mon Sep 16, 2002 3:11 am

#AL {hide} {spank self}
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Postby Adriorn » Mon Sep 16, 2002 3:19 am

hehe ok, uh, what good is hide now?
Hey let's scout this mobless zone!
Oh look, let's try to steal coins from this level 3 weaponless monster!

I sure as hell better be able to track Ymir now!

omg I'm defending rogues!

rerolling halfling warrior

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Postby Kifle » Mon Sep 16, 2002 3:41 am

Disclaimer: I like what you guys are trying to do, this is not inteded to hurt your feelings or anything, etc, etc...

You have now succeeded in making all melee classes utterly uselss, great job...you have turned the last usefull melee class into a joke. We arent taken in groups to hit, we are there for insurance usually anymore. This mud is not moving towards balance, it is moving towards a caster infested population and that is horrible.

I understand that PC's should not be able to do some things that mobs do for obvious reasons, but this is by far the worst capability and play on skills that they have over us. This, as mentioned before, defies all logic. When things like this happens a class becomes less fun, ie. rangers, and will stop being rolled/played/taken in groups.

/rant

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Postby Daz » Mon Sep 16, 2002 4:00 am

I want troll invokers Image

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Vilix
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Postby Vilix » Mon Sep 16, 2002 4:03 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B>I want troll invokers Image

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


You have those already though. Just bring a torch to zone with you, have troll bend over, and fart, and light it with torch.

Troll Inferno!
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Postby Todrael » Mon Sep 16, 2002 4:31 am

Snip from the ideas thread on track:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Todrael:
I take it back. I think it'd be awesome if track worked on hiding things. And make it so that mobs, when they finish tracking, search Image</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I meant it when I said it, and I still mean it now that the change is live. Hide was the only godly skill I know of, capable of so many game breaking abilities it was crazy. It's one of the primary the reasons blocking code was added, the reason locks and doors and keys and procs are added to make zones harder, the reason areas are !tele so people can't fold in.. so many things have been added to try to stop hide from being too powerful, when all they had to do was go to the source: the skill itself. Which they now have, and even in a form that does not negate its usefulness. Still very useful in many situations; useful enough to warrant leaving in blocking code, for example.

On a side note, I agree that it should be implemented for players as well (tracking hidden), although this also introduces more difficulties with zone-breaking.

Yayaril had some great thoughts, and I hope that this is not the last change made to the skill, and tracking in general.

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Postby Nokie » Mon Sep 16, 2002 4:33 am

One word: Illusionists.

Nuff Said.

Even with that, I still respectfully dissagree with the change.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Todrael:
Hide was the only godly skill I know of, capable of so many game breaking abilities it was crazy.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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Postby Wargo » Mon Sep 16, 2002 4:46 am

Most of the zones will still remain doable. But there is no way in hell anyone CAN do Bronze Citadel now. Period.
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Postby Sarell » Mon Sep 16, 2002 8:16 am

Yup, illusionists are definately much better rogues than rogues now! The consequences of logic as Yaya pointed out are limitless, and stong arguments, generally founded in realism can be presented from both sides of the arguement. However as far as game-play goes, this is a HUGE blow to rogues. Even if you agro one mob in the zone your skills are then useless until that mob has been killed. I always just figured if you were being chased by giants demons etc etc you would make some attempt to cover your tracks. Rogues being able to ninja around and stuff is a powerful tool, just like dragonscales, forcemissiles, res, etc etc are. Keep rogues groovy!

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Postby Jegzed » Mon Sep 16, 2002 8:32 am

If only mobs with sense life could track and search properly this would be fine.

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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
rylan
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Postby rylan » Mon Sep 16, 2002 12:03 pm

I think we're gonna see groups taking sitters now for nasty zones, or having someone from group sit out on fights. Image
Zen
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Postby Zen » Mon Sep 16, 2002 12:16 pm

The problem with this change is that it diminishes the rogues core abilities in terms of CR and holding zone pops, but does nothing to change their so called 'zone breaking' ablities. (It's another topic, but does everything have to be done by brute force and invokers?) If there is something about rogues that truely needs to be addressed in terms of balance, then making mobs able to track hidden players doesn't address it.

There has to be a better way to accomplish the objective, whatever it is. The final outcome of this is going to be ppl having to sit and rogues dying more. Say what you like about rogues dying, but ppl sitting is bad, especially with the low population we have on the mud.

I don't think this change helps anyone, and it just seems to be another way to nerf melee classes into rolling casters.

-Zenriel

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The Lord of the Iron Wastes holds his hammer high in the air, shouting a torment... 'Weak fools!'

[This message has been edited by Zen (edited 09-16-2002).]
Tanji Smanji
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Postby Tanji Smanji » Mon Sep 16, 2002 12:24 pm

It's stupid. Now an aggro rogue can't hold a pop, CR very easily and other things. In other words, do their job. Its really sad how we bitch and bitch about melee being so useless now and you turn around and keep downgrading them.

Right now I need at most 2-3 tanks to do a zone, thats all the melee I need. I routinely do jot and other zones without a single hitter. They're just that bad.

Not to mention illusionists and druids/rangers still get a way to prevent mobs from tracking them. Guess illusionists really are the CR class afterall.

[This message has been edited by Tanji Smanji (edited 09-16-2002).]
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Postby Daz » Mon Sep 16, 2002 12:27 pm

Nothing personal, but at least rogues and rangers are on par with warriors. Woot! Now, to continue my support for downgrades of all casters . . . :P



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Postby Salen » Mon Sep 16, 2002 12:29 pm

So is there some explanation of how hide was 'broken' before?

Or is this another 'things are too easy lets hose the players some more' fix?

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Postby Ensis » Mon Sep 16, 2002 12:44 pm

I like that mobs are smart enough to search for rogues.

I think the general consensus is going to be if they can do it we should be able to.

If you want to overhaul track/hide/sneak etc.. then it should be something more dynamic IMO. Make track/sneak/hide fire depending on what kindof zone you're in. (ie: Planar, prime, forest, city, etc..)

Kifle has a good point also, seems most caster classes have been getting neat spells to avoid things like feedback (sand/frost), getting newer spells that have side effects in addition to massive damage(blindness/bash/stun/etc..), while the melee classes are for the most part getting castrated.

Im not too down with giving sneak the pass without trace ability, but maybe a camoflauge skill that would allow them to mask their tracks and make them move a little slower to do so?


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">To sum up:

1. A mob message like say (a gnoll points you out lurking here!) or whatever the normal one is would be nice.

2. PC's being able to track hidden as well as mobs.

3. Track being a little more dynamic, based on terrain/room/even PC size/wt etc..

4. Camoflauge skill to mask tracks (though i think it'd have to be fairly laggy as to not overshadow the pass without trace spell)

5. Lag in searching vs lag in hiding checked into so that mobs can't spot you and then hand you your ass mightily.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



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Postby cherzra » Mon Sep 16, 2002 12:57 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tanji Smanji:
<B>Right now I need at most 2-3 tanks to do a zone, thats all the melee I need. I routinely do jot and other zones without a single hitter. They're just that bad.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually I solo tanked clouds just a few weeks ago... who needs more than 1 when you can dump 20 spells on him to make him uber. But maybe I shouldn't be saying this as it may just result in more TANK SKILL downgrades and the balance will shift even more to casters. *Cough* just 1 example, shieldpunch being worthless because of every caster and (anti)paladin !fail stunning with their spells and horses *cough*

On the topic of rogues sneak/hide, I have to agree something needed to be done. The problem was that they could get anywhere and that zone writers probably had to go to insane lenghts to stop sneak/hide. However, this still leaves illusionists though, and those CHEESE IN NEED OF DOWNGRADE perma sneak items... they need looking at as well. Rogues were cool and needed in that they could CR and hold a pop, but I have no idea how it would be possible to allow that while still preventing them from sneaking and hiding all over, which was a problem IMO.

[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 09-16-2002).]
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Sep 16, 2002 1:58 pm

I went to bed and slept on this, and I still can't find my way towards taking my typical stance on changes within the game. If the rogue were a class which could go to all the planes and solo whatever they wanted, I could definitely see taking one of their really nice skills away from them, but they're not. There wasn't a rogue in one of Corth's three-man zone-breaking groups, was there?

There are so many ways to keep rogues out of areas when zone builders and staff don't want them wandering freely. Is there some reason people take issues requiring a key for doors? Put a key on a mob over level 53 and we get to stand there shrugging. Blocking code is a great idea, even if it needs to be tweaked a bit. I've been all for ideas which would limit our ability to move through zones in order to cheese them, but this goes way beyond that.

I can understand why you wouldn't want a player to be able to lure sometimes... so now casters get to do all of that, and nothing's changed. Drop on that sneak cloak, max cleric's hps, go tag mob, get summoned back or word and gated back, or any number of tricks that still work. Send out the illusionist. Hell, send out the ranger who can tag and tap a spell which brings him right back to the entrance of the zone.

Can anybody tell me why you don't want us to be able to hold popping zones after a total spank now? I was just haranguing everybody around me because I've been wanting to go to Bronze Citadel really badly. Now I'm going to wait until I see how this affects the CR situation. I'm not sitting for any damned zone, my idea of fun in a game is not spamming 'hide' a hundred times then playing solitaire in another window.

Can anybody tell me why you want to make CR's this much more difficult? We'll just do what we typically do anyway. Verarb pops on his sneaky boots and drags everybody in. Half the time I only drag when Verarb dies anyway.

When all the threads were flying about the issues between rangers and rogues with damage and archery and spells vs. skills, I mentioned how zoning used to be for me. Before I got into Imphras and found a group of really wonderful people to hang out with regularly, my zoning experience consisted of getting transported into a zone, popping a lock, and getting transported right back out because their group was full and they had no need for a rogue. Illusionists have better rogue skills than rogues do, AND they can heal themselves, travel to other planes, make pets at the drop of a hat, and cast really nifty spells for damage... they can even mem out without having to worry about being tracked by tracking mobs. There's nothing rogues can do that casters can't do better now.

Oh wait, there's one thing. I fully support giving mages a spell which has been suggested before... If you gave casters the "knock" spell, you could just yank the rogue class entirely. Better yet, put a no-break skeleton key on Yan-C-Bin-O-Twinkiness.
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Postby Eza » Mon Sep 16, 2002 2:18 pm

I almost didn't want to say anything here.. because it would come out wrong or because I know it wouldn't make any difference.. whatever the reason.

But I have to say - take a look at all the negative attention this is getting. Even people that wanted it changed disagree with the extent of this change. There has to be some kind of happy medium like so many others have suggested, or better yet, just change it back the way it was.

As it stands right now I feel, and I'm sure others do too, that all the hours upon hours we practiced these skills to be able to do what we do best have been completely wasted.

Rogues are handicapped without one of their most important skills. What would happen to a cleric if you took away fheal.. a shaman if you took away gheal...?

Please consider reversing this change. It is most decidedly not for the better from any POV.

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Postby Daz » Mon Sep 16, 2002 2:33 pm

To say that hide is the only useful skill a rogue has is . . . . well, not true :P What is sneak? backstab? steal? poisons? disarm?

If every rogue is so horrified that they are getting hide downgraded, I have to think maybe there was good cause for it. putting hide to rogues in the same range as fheal for priests is inaccurate.

We cant, we cant, we cant. Thats all I am hearing. Well, why isn't anyone saying 'what can we do now.'

To those of you who posted about possible fixes or tweaks to be made to this change, such as allowing players a limited version of the same skill or downgrading the mob version of search, etc - I was not directing this at you, and I am sorry for generalizing.

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Postby Laxlez » Mon Sep 16, 2002 2:35 pm

I can't say I completely disagree to the change that was made in principle. It makes sense. However, in order for the tracking of hidden players to be feasible, some additional checks need to go in..

One simple way to do this would be to not allow mobs without sense life to track.

Or, an alternative that makes more sense realistically:
1) Mobs without a reasonable amount of intelligence cannot track a hidden player at all.
2) Search lag equivalent to that of PCs is implemented.
3) Mob tracking hidden PC checks against mob intelligence _and_ track skill. (I'm envisioning something like a mob with equal intelligence can successfully track a PC with maxed track skill 10-20% of the time).
4) Mobs tracking that don't have sense life should have a greatly reduced chance of a successful search.

And, of course, PCs should be able to track hidden mobs.

-Laxlez
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Postby Daz » Mon Sep 16, 2002 2:48 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Laxlez:
<B>And, of course, PCs should be able to track hidden mobs.

-Laxlez</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

this = too much twinking to be put in place i think.

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Postby Laxlez » Mon Sep 16, 2002 3:22 pm

Well, of course with the same limitations as I have suggested for mob->PC tracking.. And perhaps an even higher chance of failure.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B> this = too much twinking to be put in place i think.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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Postby Dlur » Mon Sep 16, 2002 3:24 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Laxlez:
<B>I can't say I completely disagree to the change that was made in principle. It makes sense. However, in order for the tracking of hidden players to be feasible, some additional checks need to go in..

One simple way to do this would be to not allow mobs without sense life to track.

Or, an alternative that makes more sense realistically:
1) Mobs without a reasonable amount of intelligence cannot track a hidden player at all.
2) Search lag equivalent to that of PCs is implemented.
3) Mob tracking hidden PC checks against mob intelligence _and_ track skill. (I'm envisioning something like a mob with equal intelligence can successfully track a PC with maxed track skill 10-20% of the time).
4) Mobs tracking that don't have sense life should have a greatly reduced chance of a successful search.

And, of course, PCs should be able to track hidden mobs.

-Laxlez</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm in agreement with Lax here. I'd like to slightly modify what he said with my suggestions:

1) If mobs don't have sense life they shouldn't be able to track or search out hidden players. This would allow area creators to make "guardian" mobs at key locations throughout their zones that do have sense life that would be able to detect rogues that are hide/sneaking through the zone for the purpose of just running through. Mobs of super intelligence (dragons, demons) and mobs over level 55 should have a moderate (30%) chance of tracking and searching out hidden players regardless of whether they have sense life.

2) If you have a big problem with folks hiding and sneaking through your zone then you should have done as Ashiwi said and put a !pick locked door with a key on a 53+ mob. This is more effective and a heck of a lot more "realistic" than blocking mobs that block you even when they are blind and paralized.

3) Put a slight lag on mob search. Also make it so that mobs with animal intelligence can track hidden players, but are unable to search them out. This would allow for smell/animal sense.

4) Give players a small chance to track hidden mobs, but only if the player already knows that mob is in the game. IE you can't run to jot and track Ymir to see if he loaded, but if you are fighting a group of rogue mobs and one flees and hides, you could track that hidden rogue mob to see what direction your backstab suprise was waiting for you at.

5) Side note: Please try to refrain from downgrading hitter classes without fully weighing the consequences. All us hitter types are neutered compared to casters as it is. Even with all the 'increased tanking skills' that warriors have today I'm still hard-pressed to solo kill a mob today that I could have easily smitten years ago without all my super-duper new-improved tanking skills that I supposedly have. It's come to be my opinion that tanking skills are worse than they were back on Soj1 and although pets aren't the main tanks anymore it's still soley casters that allow tanks to survive.



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Postby Eza » Mon Sep 16, 2002 3:37 pm

I said hide WAS *one of* our most important skills. Anyone will tell you that. I know we've got a lot of others, of course I do. I have been paying attention to the character I've been playing every day for the past two years.

You get used to your character, how they work, how to do everything.. a change like this is similar to a lost limb. You have to learn to do things all over again, a totally different way. Some people aren't going to want to put forth that effort.

I've seen *SO* many people say that rogues are completely useless now because of this change. That's not something we should ever be hearing about *any* class.

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- Booty Assasin -

[This message has been edited by Eza (edited 09-16-2002).]
Bagalutas
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Postby Bagalutas » Mon Sep 16, 2002 3:52 pm

Hrm. I don't really understand why some stupid mob dog is more intelligent than a elven player character. And why do some basics mobs have more natural stuff than pcs? Sense life automatical skill for most trackers now, that just doesn't make sense. Image

This is a bit too brutal change. Hide was pretty useful. Won't be anymore as long as there is a tracker mob around. And there are plenty of those.
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Postby Dalar » Mon Sep 16, 2002 4:07 pm

Now that mobs can track hiding players and search them out, spanks are now a reality.
For zones like muspelheim, jot, manscorps, and clouds, a rogue is a must b/c u need them to hold the zone pop or the group would lose HOURS of progress. Now that rogues get searched out, illusionists and druids step up to the plate as the zone pop saving class. As for CRing, if a rogue fails sneak/hide while dragging (usually from a corpse being too heavy), the rogue gets an extra corpse to CR.

I would suggest the following:

1) Give a buffer of time for zone repop in zones that repop the instant all players leave. Now groups don't have to rely on illusionists and druids, and rogues can't really complain about not being able to save the zone pop. Examples of said zones are: air/fire/astral planes, jotunheim, muspelheim, manscorps/seers, clouds.

2) Make failed drags not break hide. This would be an upgrade to rogue CR but please consider it. There is no need for more pointless dying and frustration.



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old depok
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Postby old depok » Mon Sep 16, 2002 4:23 pm

Did a quick test of this withthe gnolls.

A fierce gnoll misses you with its strike.

< 347h/347H 103v/104V >
< T: Pibel TC: excellent E: gnoll EC: few wounds P: std >
escape n
A fierce gnoll staggers from your fearsome pierce!
You land a mighty pierce on a fierce gnoll!
Your awesome pierce causes a fierce gnoll to gasp in pain!
A fierce gnoll barely strikes you.

< 343h/347H 103v/104V >
< T: Pibel TC: few scratches E: gnoll EC: pretty hurt P: std > A Road Through the Hills of Quistery
This is the beginning of a road which travels into the hills to the east.
As you look east, you see the rolling hills of Quistery as they are known.
For as far as you can see, which isn't far, the road leads up and over many
hills. The doesn't look like many people have ventured upon it.
- East - South - West
You escape northward!


< 344h/347H 104v/104V >
< P: std > sneak
Ok, you'll try to move silently for a while.

< 344h/347H 104v/104V >
< P: std > hide
gsa hidden?
You attempt to hide yourself.

< 345h/347H 104v/104V >
< P: std > You group-say 'hidden?'

< 346h/347H 104v/104V >
< P: std >
Autosaving...

< 346h/347H 104v/104V >
< P: std > s
A Little Used Path in the Hills of Quistery
These rolling hills are covered in thick carpets of light green
grasses and dotted with medium sized trees of various species. All
in all, the hills are a pleasant place full of wildlife and beautiful
terrain. A narrow trail winds both north and west through these hills,
providing a fairly easy means of travel. To the north the trail slopes
downward slightly and intersects with a well travelled roadway, while
to the south the trail continues through the hills.
- North - West
Corpse of a fierce gnoll is lying here.
A large hyena-faced humanoid stands here growling at you.

< 347h/347H 103v/104V >
< P: std >
Tesil group-says 'yes'

< 347h/347H 104v/104V >
< P: std > gsa am in room with him now
You group-say 'am in room with him now'

< 347h/347H 104v/104V >
< P: std >
Tesil group-says 'hrmmm'

< 347h/347H 104v/104V >
< P: std >
It's hot out here.

< 347h/347H 104v/104V >
< P: std >
A fierce gnoll leaves west.

< 347h/347H 104v/104V >
< P: std >
A fierce gnoll enters from the west.


The gnoll never searched me out.

Suggestions:
Any sense life searchers should have the same amount of lag as a diming mob.

PC's should know when they are being searched for (you could see it obviously) and when they are found (maybe just a certain chance)


Here's an example of a future zone conversation:

Group leader Gsa's ashiwi did you assist on the render?

ashiwi group says "yes"

group leader does Who rog, no other rogue on.

Group leader says "ok Ash go kill yourself so we can get you back up here, lure the mob out of your path and you can CR the group."

Ashiwi group says "ummm wonder if Baldrus Gate is fun"
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Postby Daz » Mon Sep 16, 2002 4:39 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Eza:
<B>I've seen *SO* many people say that rogues are completely useless now because of this change. That's not something we should ever be hearing about *any* class.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

rangers almost, antipaladins, paladins.

i dont include warriors only cuz we are most of the time a core class. but all 3 of them classes are worse than rogues.

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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Sep 16, 2002 4:41 pm

I've tested it a bit on mobs lower level than me, and it took them some time to search me out, so I couldn't really judge what their search lag was like. I also am not sure if it had anything to do with their race/class etc (see the wolfhound above). I've also tried it with mobs who were higher than me, and they proceeded to search me out and kill me before my hide lag was even finished.
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Postby Ilshadrial » Mon Sep 16, 2002 4:47 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bagalutas:
<B>Hrm. I don't really understand why some stupid mob dog is more intelligent than a elven player character. And why do some basics mobs have more natural stuff than pcs? Sense life automatical skill for most trackers now, that just doesn't make sense. Image

This is a bit too brutal change. Hide was pretty useful. Won't be anymore as long as there is a tracker mob around. And there are plenty of those.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It actually makes sense that a dog would find the rogue before another type of mob, they have a supernatural sense of smell, and even in our rl world they are used to track even the most elusive criminals, ect...

So I do not think it is silly that a dog could find a rogue before an elf, it makes perfect sense to me.

Ilshad



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Ilshad

"Your accomplishment is nothing compared to the glory that is Ilshadrial!!" Yayaril
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Postby Nokie » Mon Sep 16, 2002 4:50 pm

I don't know if this still stands, but before the mud opened rogues were represented as one of the 'core' classes by the staff.

The core classes were if I recall correctly:

Warrior
Rogue
Cleric
Mage (Enchanter?)

I'm not suggesting that rogue's aren't a core class anymore, but I'm making a point of clarification to Daz's statement. And perhaps if their 'rogue-specific' functionality is dimished greatly or replaced by spells then perhaps they aren't as 'core' as they were intended to be.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
i dont include warriors only cuz we are most of the time a core class. but all 3 of them classes are worse than rogues.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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Nokie 'No you don't!! That belongs to me!' Quickfingers
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Postby Daz » Mon Sep 16, 2002 5:08 pm

I know in d&d the rogues represent one of the 4 generic classes, but i don't think that they have been 'core' really this wipe at all. to be honest, i was disappointed to see mages diversified, and rogues consolidated. it was sad to see mercs and assassins go. i still can't figure out why the staff now thinks that mages and casters are the end-all of characters. it seems that everything, as already mentioned, is geared to making melee obsolete.

warriors are ONLY needed as bashing meatshields. we don't even have the good luck to be called hitters.

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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
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Postby Todrael » Mon Sep 16, 2002 5:13 pm

Why are there so many rogue alts? Why is there such a sheer volume of outrage over this single change? Could it be, perhaps, that a large majority of the mud realized the power this skill had, and exploited it to its maximum extent? Could it be that people realized that everything would be super easy if they just brought a rogue along to hide/sneak their way past anything and everything, CR any spank, do aggro quests? Does this change affect the 'hitting' aspect of the rogue -at all-? Why do people say it's a downgrade to a 'hitter' class if it doesn't affect the hitting? It wasn't labelled a 'hiding' class, was it?

Hide was, and still is, -the- most powerful skill any class receives, in my opinion. (Note: please re-read the 'in my opinion' part. That part is important.) Certainly, future changes are warranted, and as I said, lots of great ideas in this thread, but I will always be against putting hide back in 'the way it was,' just as I petitioned every time someone put on their hide cloak to go do something twinky.

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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
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Postby Waelos » Mon Sep 16, 2002 5:19 pm

Please. And people say rangers whine? Rogues lose one aspect of one of many usefull skills. Be glad you have a multitude of usefull skills to have downgraded.

It is an absolute riot that rogues are crying out for 'balance of melee classes' the instant a non-melee skill is tweaked out of their favor. Where was all this support for melee classes before ? Anyway, now we have to deal with the fall out of an imbalanced class coming down to earth.

I will say this: The way this was done was, in my opinion, flawed. I really wish the gods would be more open with their reasoning, as having 200 minds working on a problem from different angles is better than 2 or 3 from some shrouded perspective.

Honestly, what does this tweak do? Add more of an element of danger to the game for groups and rogues alike? What was the tweak intended to do?

Does the Staff want to prevent rampant rogue twinkyness in exploring zones etc? Do they really want to make CR's harder?

If rogues really are bent out of shape about their CR ability, why don't we keep mobs !tracking hiding players and go back to having sneak/hide not work in combination? Since draging corpses breaks hide anyway this would allow for CRing and prevent the twinkyness of rogues with the hide/sneak combination. Hide would essentially become an 'at will pass without trace' that has no terrain limitation, but limits what you can do (meaning some stuff will break hide).

If things remain the way they are, then mobs should indeed have search lag. No search lag just isn't fair (not that we're trying to be balanced and fair or anything) to the Rogue.

Again, I ask. . . what are we trying to accomplish with this change and have we acheived it?

All my venom about rogues whining, etc aside, I do cast my vote in with them.
Rogues had added value to a group over their 'hitting' ability (although that is still the best there is in the game. . . The one-eyed man is king in the land of the blind. whee) thus making them more viable in group situations. If you continue stripping rogues of their abilities, eventually they'll be nothing more than rangers that can't make canoes, detect invis or do paltry damage with pointy sticks that fly around from time to time.

Melee classes need balancing with spellcasters. I've given alot of feedback on how to accomplish this in other threads. I won't waste my breath and your time repeating it, however.

Closing thoughts. . .please consider all ramifications of a decision before implementing them. Try posting these changes BEFORE putting them in so the player base can discuss them before things get out of hand. That way we can work together to create a fun, balanced game.

Lost?

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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Sep 16, 2002 5:40 pm

Well duh, Tod. Somebody else want to explain to Todrael that rogues get ridiculously easy exp charts and are fun to play? I'd be all for making our exp charts harder, but 'hide' is not the single most overwhelming reason to roll a rogue. If you wanted all of that plus interplanar travel, you'd roll an illusionist.
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Postby Tanji Smanji » Mon Sep 16, 2002 5:43 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Todrael:
<B>Why are there so many rogue alts? Why is there such a sheer volume of outrage over this single change? Could it be, perhaps, that a large majority of the mud realized the power this skill had, and exploited it to its maximum extent? Could it be that people realized that everything would be super easy if they just brought a rogue along to hide/sneak their way past anything and everything, CR any spank, do aggro quests? Does this change affect the 'hitting' aspect of the rogue -at all-? Why do people say it's a downgrade to a 'hitter' class if it doesn't affect the hitting? It wasn't labelled a 'hiding' class, was it?

Hide was, and still is, -the- most powerful skill any class receives, in my opinion. (Note: please re-read the 'in my opinion' part. That part is important.) Certainly, future changes are warranted, and as I said, lots of great ideas in this thread, but I will always be against putting hide back in 'the way it was,' just as I petitioned every time someone put on their hide cloak to go do something twinky.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can still, even after this change, go sneak/hide right up to jabber or grey-greens (example of a zone with no doors or other impediments) with perfect ease. Of course once there I can sit there and basically do nothing. It takes a caster class to bring the group to me.

What this change hurts is rogues ability to CR. Dragging a corpse breaks hide, so one must re-hide after a drag into a room with aggros and it is still possible to get hit before you hide. Now if you get hit, its over. I'd suggest instead that only mobs with sense life already be able to search, and that mobs hae the same lag as PC's after a search as well as reducing hide lag. Twice now I've been searched out before the lag from hide ended.

Not to mention, there is 0 lag when using a hide cloak or the 3 perm sneak items in the game.

[This message has been edited by Tanji Smanji (edited 09-16-2002).]
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Postby moritheil » Mon Sep 16, 2002 5:48 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Malacar:
<B>Anything to slaughter more mortals, as they say.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If that's what they truly want, they should simply empower Mori.

I am against the broad, sweeping nature of this change. Certainly it could be argued that the fights in some zones are too easily circumvented using rogues, and thus the change. But why change across the board?

Now every zone, from gnolls to Jot, has tracking mobs searching out rogues. How bout we imp this so that only the UBER zones have this feature?

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Postby Zen » Mon Sep 16, 2002 5:53 pm

Some further thoughts:

a) This change does nothing to prevent rogue twinkiness in zones. Not a thing. A rogue can still sneak in, get gated folded summoned or whatever. You just suffer more greatly for a failed hide.

b) CR's and holding the pop on difficult zones is now impossible for a rogue. Sitters are lame and having casters do it just takes away from melee classes more. At least rangers still have pwt.

c) People play rogue alts for the easy xp tables and fun utilities, not to twink hide. Anyone who's actually tried a rogue knows that the skills of sneak and hide don't work well enough to do anything but get you killed till L46+. They don't even work well enough to fool around with till 25-30.

d) Things need to just be put back the way it was in regards to rogue hide. If zones are suffering greatly from rogue sneakiness, wich I do not see, then there are better ways to deal with it than nerfing another class.

-Zenriel

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Postby Gormal » Mon Sep 16, 2002 6:05 pm

As much as I will miss this skill I think that it was a good call on whomever made this choice. It was a broken ability. Hide still is awesome as is sneak...its just not quite as twinky now.+

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