Recent changes to hide

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
sok
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Postby sok » Mon Sep 16, 2002 6:50 pm

I guess the question I have is, when do a group of 15 40+ spank? it's usually to big fights and most time they have casters in them. sense life and high int mob are kinda cool idea but they dont solve the problem of spank.
Ragorn
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Sep 16, 2002 9:13 pm

Though I can't (and won't) speak on the balance issue of the hide change, I will say that I'm always against melee classing losing more ground to casters. Sojourn has 5 arcane and 3 clerical caster classes. There are 3 tank classes, and 3 utility classes (ranger, rogue, bard). I won't even call hitters "damage" anymore, since the era of melee damage having a nontrivial affect on the outcome of a battle is long over.

Tank classes will always have a role in groups, even though that role moves away from "damage and utility" and more toward "NPC meatshield" every time casters get a new ability (stun is the latest example, making shieldpunch a far less coveted skill). Utility classes rely on the few skills left not allocated to mage classes to survive in a group. As those skills get less and less useful, groups will continue to gravitate toward "3 warrior, 12 caster" paradigm.

Right now, zoning is about moving your mages from one fight to the next. Tanks, rogues, rangers, and bards merely provide support so that the mages can move safely from one mob-filled room to another. Melee damage has been a joke for years, since every mob in the room is at awful when the first mob dies from hitter damage. First warrior skills were reduced to nearly nothing, reducing their tanking ability to "meat-filled burlap sacks." Now rogue skills take a hit, making group leaders question whether having a rogue is worth it. How much longer before sneak is deemed "cheesy" and rogues get relegated back to the "well and unlock" status they enjoyed during Sojourn 2?

There comes a time when the staff should realize that not every zone NEEDS to be done by brute force. Why is it that any time someone comes up with a solution to a problem that doesn't involve charging in and area'ing mobs to death, someone calls it twinky or cheesy? Sending a rogue through a zone is "twinking" it. An elementalist sending 10,000 fire elementals into upper echelon to get the brig is "cheesing it". Using pass without trace and sneak to well directly to brimirs is "twinking jot". I don't understand why every possible solution on the mud other than brute force has to be hard coded out using blocking code and skill downgrades.

People play role playing games to express their creativity. Forcing the players to solve every challenge on the mud through the same application of force reduces the mud to a single dimension. What's the difference between doing brass and doing elemental citadel if you reduce both zones to a series of mob fights you cannot avoid?

The primary reason I stopped playing Sojourn is the futility of playing a melee class. I realized one day that no matter how pretty my equipment was and no matter how high my damage roll got, I would never have 1/4 the effect on a battle that a single naked invoker would have. The argument "if you don't like your class, play another one" only goes so far before you look around and see a mud where nobody plays melee classes except die-hard class groupies and first time players.

Look familiar?

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- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
Dizzin
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Postby Dizzin » Mon Sep 16, 2002 9:34 pm

On the whole "melee classes being downgraded to uselessness", I just had to chime in. I have both a 50 rogue, and a 50 voker. Take into account my rogue is probably one of the better decked out evil rogues, so therefore he does some of the most damage of a melee class out there.

In the past, I had to yell and scream to be able to bring him to any zone, even if we already had 3 vokers in the group. And now that one of our primary skills just took a huge hit, I'll probably never be able to bring him to another zone. If we need damage, I'll bring a voker, or if we need easy CR potential, I'll bring an illusionist.

Casters truly are the powers of this mud, and I never used to think that was a bad thing. However I never thought melee classes would be downgraded in order for that to become more clear.

On a related note, if you're going to mess hide up in this way, do you suppose you could fix up disguise so that it would notch faster or be more attractive to use in zoning situations to save pops and help in CRs etc..?

-Tre'Verien
Corth
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Postby Corth » Mon Sep 16, 2002 9:47 pm

Good post, Ragorn.

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Goddamned slippery mage.
Kifle
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Postby Kifle » Mon Sep 16, 2002 9:50 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Todrael:
<B>Why are there so many rogue alts? Why is there such a sheer volume of outrage over this single change? Could it be, perhaps, that a large majority of the mud realized the power this skill had, and exploited it to its maximum extent? Could it be that people realized that everything would be super easy if they just brought a rogue along to hide/sneak their way past anything and everything, CR any spank, do aggro quests? Does this change affect the 'hitting' aspect of the rogue -at all-? Why do people say it's a downgrade to a 'hitter' class if it doesn't affect the hitting? It wasn't labelled a 'hiding' class, was it?

Hide was, and still is, -the- most powerful skill any class receives, in my opinion. (Note: please re-read the 'in my opinion' part. That part is important.) Certainly, future changes are warranted, and as I said, lots of great ideas in this thread, but I will always be against putting hide back in 'the way it was,' just as I petitioned every time someone put on their hide cloak to go do something twinky.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most of the time, tod, i really really like what you post, but this just misses the point by a mile. Things being able to search out a rogue AFTER it has been attacked has no baring on a rogue that has max hide/sneak cheesing through the zone. I still do this in many zones perfectly only being at my cap at lvl 48. Illusionists can cheeze a zone 100x faster and with < danger than a rogue.

I play a rogue mainly for its RP capabilities. Yeah i like to do damage (which is even more of a joke since mob def. was upgraded) I like to be sneaky sneaky. I like being able to poison my blades. But i will tell you this. How ofted to my poisons hit in high lvl zones...hardly ever. What point is sneaky sneaky when you hate leading groups and you already have an illusionist in your group? What point is hit/dam gear when you have 460 max hps and a riposte will take off half of that? How useful is backstab besides being able to kill 6th lvl mobs at the fountain when you are bored or when that rare occurence of major para in a zone from a WARRIOR weapon or MAGE skill? How useful is pick locks when there are !pick doors in a lot of zones now? How useful is diguise when it costs 32plat per shot and it never notches and every body already knows its you behind the disguise once you have "disguised" yourself? How useful is awareness when you dont know you are evern aware?

Rogues are now a class that will get welled in when needed, welled out once they have performed their task...

K rogues, time to roll illusionists or invokers...see you on the ship.

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[This message has been edited by Kifle (edited 09-16-2002).]
Vahok
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Postby Vahok » Mon Sep 16, 2002 10:48 pm

Sad to say, but I'm gonna have to agree with everyone. As we all know, zone groups are highly unbalanced as is. Rangers are stuck guarding the fountain (I know, I've spent enough time there), and now it appears rogues are gonna be joining the club. The unbalance for melee classes is getting real obvious. Heck, I've been dumping my hit/dam eq for hp eq because the need for melee damage is fading real quick, so I may as well have more hp to take a beating.

Solutions? Downgrade casters? I don't think that will solve the problem. Naturally, there will be unbalance always but I think upgrading melee classes is something that should be looked at. Why would any zone leader take a rogue instead of a caster class now? We need to have ideas to have it so the mud doesn't become one-dimensional. As people have already posted, mage classes can stun, do more damage, and travel with ease (than the melee classes) in zones. Should we all roll a mage class just so we can enjoy zoning?

True, as a warrior I don't have it quite as bad as the other melee classes. But I really feel for the rangers and rogues out there. I'm sure many of them really love their characters and hate to see a downgrade of any sort. So my thought is an upgrade instead. More archery damage. Better backstabs. The list of ideas can go on. Now it the current sitution isn't the end of the world for these classes, but I'd like to see a true need for rangers and rogues in a zone. Did hiding really help groups "cheeze" a zone? If anything, I thought the most valuable thing about hiding was CRing. We have all been in groups with a huge spank occured and those lovable rogues have saved me a real late night. Did hide help defeat the zone? No, I think it saved us from being damn tired at work!

I think we all agree something needs to be done. Upgrade or downgrade classes, I just want an equal measure of uniqueness and usefulness for all.

Just kinda pondering here.....

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Meatshield
Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Sep 17, 2002 1:08 am

Maybe I'm just hurting the rogue class with this, but I just wanted to show that what people call "twinking" was hurt in no way by the new changes to the hide skill. What was hurt was the ability to CR and hold a popping zone.


< > u
High Above the Icy Marsh (No Ground)
The cloud cover up at this altitude almost completely blocks out any
view of the territory below. Rising high about this altitude are the Ice
Mountains, which completely encircle the Snow Elf Valley. The wind is
constantly swirling around not only making it extremely dangerous up here,
but making it seem much colder then it already is. The Ice Mountains have
patches of vegetation here and there, however the mountains are
predominately rocky in nature. There are no obvious signs of intelligent
life anywhere on the Ice Mountains. The wind at this altitude is extremely
loud and almost sounds like the howling of some great beast.
Room size: Small (L:8 ft W:8 ft H:8 ft)
Exits: - South - West - Down

< 445h/445H 132v/137V >
< > say oh lookie, a clear room
hide
You stop trying to hide.
You say 'oh lookie, a clear room'

< 445h/445H 137v/137V >
< > You attempt to hide yourself.

< 445h/445H 137v/137V >
< > say time enough for fold?
hide
You stop trying to hide.
You say 'time enough for fold?'

< 445h/445H 137v/137V >
< > You attempt to hide yourself.

< 445h/445H 137v/137V >
< >
The wind begins to blow.

< 445h/445H 137v/137V >
< > l w
You extend your sights westwards.
High Above the Icy Marsh (No Ground)
Room size: Small (L:8 ft W:8 ft H:8 ft)
Exits: - East - South - West
You see the red shape of a *HUGE* being here.

< 445h/445H 137v/137V >
< > w
High Above the Icy Marsh (No Ground)
w
The cloud cover up at this altitude almost completely blocks out any
view of the territory below. Rising high about this altitude are the Ice
Mountains, which completely encircle the Snow Elf Valley. The wind is
constantly swirling around not only making it extremely dangerous up here,
but making it seem much colder then it already is. The Ice Mountains have
patches of vegetation here and there, however the mountains are
predominately rocky in nature. There are no obvious signs of intelligent
life anywhere on the Ice Mountains. The wind at this altitude is extremely
loud and almost sounds like the howling of some great beast.
Room size: Small (L:8 ft W:8 ft H:8 ft)
Exits: - East - South - West
A storm giant warrior checks his weapons one last time.

< 445h/445H 136v/137V >
< > High Above the Icy Marsh (No Ground)
The cloud cover up at this altitude almost completely blocks out any
view of the territory below. Rising high about this altitude are the Ice
Mountains, which completely encircle the Snow Elf Valley. The wind is
constantly swirling around not only making it extremely dangerous up here,
but making it seem much colder then it already is. The Ice Mountains have
patches of vegetation here and there, however the mountains are
predominately rocky in nature. There are no obvious signs of intelligent
life anywhere on the Ice Mountains. The wind at this altitude is extremely
loud and almost sounds like the howling of some great beast.
Room size: Small (L:8 ft W:8 ft H:8 ft)
Exits: - North - East
A storm giant sorcerer stands here waiting for someone.
A storm giant warrior is patiently waiting for the coming battle.
A winged elf archmage is fully prepared to defend himself.

< 445h/445H 135v/137V >
< > l n
You extend your sights northwards.
High Above the Icy Marsh (No Ground)
Room size: Small (L:8 ft W:8 ft H:8 ft)
Exits: - South
You see the red shape of a *HUGE* being here.
You see the red shape of a *HUGE* being here.
You see the red shape of a *HUGE* being here.
You see the red shape of a large being here.
You see the red shape of a large being here.

< 445h/445H 135v/137V >
< > n
High Above the Icy Marsh (No Ground)
The cloud cover up at this altitude almost completely blocks out any
view of the territory below. Rising high about this altitude are the Ice
Mountains, which completely encircle the Snow Elf Valley. The wind is
constantly swirling around not only making it extremely dangerous up here,
but making it seem much colder then it already is. The Ice Mountains have
patches of vegetation here and there, however the mountains are
predominately rocky in nature. There are no obvious signs of intelligent
life anywhere on the Ice Mountains. The wind at this altitude is extremely
loud and almost sounds like the howling of some great beast.
Room size: Small (L:8 ft W:8 ft H:8 ft)
Exits: - South
A royal storm giant cleric is silently praying for counsel.
A royal storm giant sorcerer is ready for war.
A black griffin awaits his orders.
A winged elf knight stands at attention.
A royal winged elf guard stands near his lord.

< 445h/445H 135v/137V >
< > l knight
The winged elf knight appears to be a normal grey elf in all regards except
for one thing and that is his wings. The wings have beautiful white feathers
and span a length that is easily twice his height. He is dressed in the garb
of a warrior and is calming watching for intruders.
A winged elf knight is in excellent condition.
He is surrounded by burning flames!


You attempt to peek at the inventory:
You can't see anything.

< 445h/445H 137v/137V >
< >
A storm giant sorcerer flies in from the south.

< 445h/445H 137v/137V >
< >
Autosaving...

< 445h/445H 137v/137V >
< >
A storm giant sorcerer starts casting a spell.

< 445h/445H 137v/137V >
< >
A royal storm giant cleric starts casting a spell.

< 445h/445H 137v/137V >
< >
A storm giant sorcerer completes his spell...
A storm giant sorcerer utters the words, 'qaregpuzre'
A storm giant sorcerer is surrounded by an aura of deadly cold!

< 445h/445H 137v/137V >
< >
A royal storm giant cleric completes his spell...
A royal storm giant cleric utters the words, 'sfahzqhuai yfaw yufz'

< 445h/445H 137v/137V >
< >
A royal storm giant sorcerer starts casting a spell.

< 445h/445H 137v/137V >
< >
The first rays of sunlight signal the approaching day.
A royal storm giant sorcerer completes his spell...
A royal storm giant sorcerer utters the words, 'yufzgpuzre'
A royal storm giant sorcerer is surrounded by burning flames!

< 445h/445H 137v/137V >
< > em holds her fingers behind the sorcerer's head and cheeses for the flash.
hide
You stop trying to hide.
Ashiwi holds her fingers behind the sorcerer's head and cheeses for the flash.

< 445h/445H 137v/137V >
< > You attempt to hide yourself.

< 445h/445H 137v/137V >
< >
It's cold!

< 445h/445H 137v/137V >
< > s
High Above the Icy Marsh (No Ground)
The cloud cover up at this altitude almost completely blocks out any
view of the territory below. Rising high about this altitude are the Ice
Mountains, which completely encircle the Snow Elf Valley. The wind is
constantly swirling around not only making it extremely dangerous up here,
but making it seem much colder then it already is. The Ice Mountains have
patches of vegetation here and there, however the mountains are
predominately rocky in nature. There are no obvious signs of intelligent
life anywhere on the Ice Mountains. The wind at this altitude is extremely
loud and almost sounds like the howling of some great beast.
Room size: Small (L:8 ft W:8 ft H:8 ft)
Exits: - North - East
A storm giant warrior is patiently waiting for the coming battle.
A winged elf archmage is fully prepared to defend himself.


Too bad the zone had already been done, but I'm sure you recognize it.
Kifle
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Postby Kifle » Tue Sep 17, 2002 1:26 am

You expect podville to be !done 40hrs into boot...pft!

Yup still able to cheese, not able to live or CR....thanks for the useful balancing downgrade!

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Dizzin
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Postby Dizzin » Tue Sep 17, 2002 1:35 am

Cool, I was able to watch my prediction come true. We just spanked in clouds, 3 patrols + numerous dragons, you know that type of spank. The 50 rogue in our group got out in time, but then was subsequently tracked down, searched out, and smoten. I as the illusionist however, fled out with 75 hps, changed drow, misled, and held pop all the way till we were ready to go back in. Fun. Image

-Tre'Verien
Orvik
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Postby Orvik » Tue Sep 17, 2002 2:53 am

Its quite simple really. If you want a rogue in your group to hold a zone? Well then someone needs to put out the cash for all those disguise kits cuz most rogues I know dont have that kind of cash.

Assuming that the use of a kit will throw off any trackers

-Pythrrus

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Kifle
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Postby Kifle » Tue Sep 17, 2002 5:17 am

it doesnt

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Wargo
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Postby Wargo » Tue Sep 17, 2002 5:43 am

Disheartening to see the lack of immortal response dispise the cogent public outcry huh?
Ragorn
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Sep 17, 2002 6:09 am

Give the imms time to discuss it amongst themselves. They'll give us a stance, a post this hot almost always gets an official response when one is ready.

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- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
Jurdex
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Postby Jurdex » Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:20 am

Well.

I would like to say the mud (for me) was a lot more fun with monks and sorcs. However, that is never going to change. The worst thing that ever happened was the introduction of invokers.

I still somewhat bucked the trend. I rarely ever grouped an invoker. Very rarely. I used rangers and rogues and druids for damage. It was fun. We still did all the zones. We still had fun. It made those fights with tons of mobs a lot more fun. You got to see who was skilled and who wasn't.

I'm just a bit befuddled by the changes that happen.

Holy Word was made actually useful.. omg a cleric actually leveled pretty quick?! Nerfed like a year and a half ago! Never fixed.

Major Para? Wasn't that also downgraded?

Hide? Downgraded.

Area spells are now limited..

The idea of spells working together was only added to hurt players..

Spells that make you !track were added but then reduced in length.

Zones can't be done with small amounts of people anymore, at least it is seen as a bad thing.

Zones are made difficult to get into and out of and some take several hours, and spanks easily double that time.

Blocking code? What is wrong with keys?

A warrior? I won't play one. Why play a class that is completely dependant on spellcasters to do his job? I tank better than some warriors as a cleric.

For as many great additions have been made to the mud, the theme is that brute force is the way to go, and every class should be essential.. and thats just not much fun.

It really ends up killing off the social or casual mudder when you can't take Bob to zone Y because you can't get him out in 45 mins (when he has to go), it just sucks.

Just my thoughts.

Dornax
Jurdex

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Est Sularus Oth Mithas
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Daz
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Postby Daz » Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:39 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jurdex:
<B>A warrior? I won't play one. Why play a class that is completely dependant on spellcasters to do his job? I tank better than some warriors as a cleric.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How does Metallica word it? Sad but true.

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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
Corth
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Postby Corth » Tue Sep 17, 2002 11:59 am

Many good things were added/changed as well.

They got rid of the 30 second mem penalty which worked to speed up zones and reduce 'dead time'. This was a small change, but I think it has had a huge impact on the enjoyment most people get from the game.

Sneak and hide were made to work together opening up whole new avenues of sneakyness. Rogues, with improved melee offense and a super-sneak finally found a niche. Some illusionists benefited as well. Image

The most fun to play class on the mud, illusionists, were added. Conjurers that make sense were added, and evils got their own melee utility class.

Most casting classes have been given decent spell damage abilities making them more useful in zones. Shaman and druids, for instance, now are something more than just a drag on the group.

Mudmail, mem priority, consenting you list, hardcoded guilds, less administrative involvement in relations between goodies and evils...

Lots of new zones, some of which are actually half decent.

But on the whole, I think you make a valid point Dornax. I agree that invokers throw the whole system out of balance. They were introduced at a time when all the casting classes did only a fraction of the damage they do now. In light of that change, they add too much nukeage, but any downgrade to them would be unfair because they do nothing else but damage. My suggestion would be to remove invokers and up melee damage as a replacement. At that point, I would review all the other downgrades you listed to see if they are necessary under this new paradigm.

Corth

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Goddamned slippery mage.
Ragorn
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Sep 17, 2002 12:09 pm

The irony of the situation is, on one side of the coin we all want our class to be useful (perhaps necessary) in a group. On the flip side, now that every class is so weak that you HAVE to have 35 buffing spells to survive a round with Padashaw, the mud is no better for it. How to find a pleasant middle ground?

This attitude that "Anything other than brute force is cheesy and needs to be prevented" is outdated and needs to go, period. The mud will continue to regress until steps are coded to allow players creative solutions to problems.

Are melee classes viable to play anymore? I don't know. Ask yourself, and consider the following:

Archery was coded to give hitters an alternative to melee against shielded mobs. Then those same mobs were given missile shield, and as of yet, no consistant way to counter missile shield has been provided.

Rogues were merged so they would be able to find a balanced place on the mud without Assassins and Rangers stepping on each others' toes. Then the nonmelee skills of Rogues started disappearing (is throwing fixed yet?).

Conjurer and Shaman pets were nerfed so that PC tanks would once again find a solid niche in groups. Then Shamans, ironically, got stun spells, lessening the need for stun-related warrior skills. Midway through the wipe, a bug was fixed with Warrior skills cutting all of their defensive abilities by 50% or more. Now warriors tank like shaman pets used to... they stand there and suck up hits.

Speaking of warrior skills, during alpha the change was made to allow players to parry/dodge multiple hits in one round. The idea was to increase the viability of PC tanks to compensate for the loss of pet tanks. Then, six months later, those same skills were slashed severely. Since tank classes prevent practically no damage with their skills, it's practical to let clerics with 1200 hit points do the tanking. Once a spell gets implemented that emulates rescue, you can leave the warriors at home entirely.

Rangers can't cast haste (even self-only) because someone, somewhere, believes that it will unbalance them. We do get control weather, however, and call lightning in 9th circle for slaying ... well ... incapped mobs.

Disarm went back in. So did dust devil, a spell given to druids that emulates it.

An item exists in the game to give a player perm sneak (and hide, and others). Stone and haste potions were removed or made rare and/or expensive for balance reasons.

To be fair, we ARE seeing a plethora of proc weapons and poisons which emulate spell abilities. We have weapons that blind, para, stun, do damage, bless, stone, heal, etc. However, there are nonweapon items in the game which also grant some of these abilities (basilisk skin leggings, etc) to casters.

This is just venting, I suppose. No, I don't play anymore. No suggestions to be found in this post whatsoever, just some ranting and a little steam being let off. Like I said in another post in another thread, the mud has evolved past me and my tastes. When it comes down to it, I just want to hit things with my sword and kill them. For whatever reason, that just isn't really a possibility on Sojourn anymore.

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- Ragorn
Jenera says 'i managed to match a little, ragorn's outfit is hideous.'
Daz
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Postby Daz » Tue Sep 17, 2002 12:10 pm

And tears of joy, streamed down my face . . . with arms wide open.

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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
cherzra
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Postby cherzra » Tue Sep 17, 2002 12:22 pm

All (valid) points about caster dominance increasing constantly aside, ranger self haste has to be the most idiotic thing I have ever read on these boards. What haste needs is an improved duration, not to be given to rangers because they feel like having it.
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Postby Zoldren » Tue Sep 17, 2002 2:30 pm

Off topic
MELEE DAMAGE WASNT TOUCHED

who said only casters should wear basilisk skin leggings? if you choose not to wear them thats your fault.

ya warriors get seriuosly screwed on eq... how easy is it for a mage to solo its eq? from lvl 1-50? not

how easy is it for a warrior to solo its eq?

ok not even solo smaller groups.. warriors .> mages when comes to !zone eq and zone eq

rogues damage wasnt touched dont bother yellin about it.

i have been in groups where 3 invokers where in group and been spanked *well rounded group too*.. have also been in groups where we had FIVE warriors 1 invoker and a rogue and did just as good or better.

stop changing the topic and ranting on other things
Rant/off topic done

get back on topic of HIDE

Hide is great for Cr's it worked great the way it was, the one thing that made it "twinky" was that sneak + hide

but if you plan on leaving hide as it is.

make it so disquise works so that the mob sees you as a different pc.. ie no longer agro w/disquise up *as it should be*

so then disquise + hide would still == rogues are CR mastas

also giving them something to cover their tracks would be very cool and helpful and not to horibly twinky



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Cap'n Touk

Ah the never ending good / evil debate has provided endless amusement for us all has it not? Both sides have a different mentality, evils appear to me as a closer nit group of people who expect a higher standard of play out of each other. Goodies are a broader group of people that cross group frequently and to me appear more easy going.
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Postby Bagalutas » Tue Sep 17, 2002 2:31 pm

I wouldn't join a group which has a leader who cares for nothing else than doing the best damage with his quickmembers, who only cares for clearing a zone in the smallest amount of time. In fact, I wouldn't
join, even if he asked. A duergar rogue is fun to RP, thats enough for me to play one. Too bad so few like me seem to exist.

What comes to his damage issue...Well, a group with a few tanks, few healers/stoners, and rest level +40 invokers seems to be atm more than enough to clear most of the zones. If I were a big bad powerplayer, I wouldn't play a rogue. God bless me for not being one. Image
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Postby Nokie » Tue Sep 17, 2002 2:37 pm

I'm not sure if this is from you or Touk, it was confusing if you were quoting someone or not.

With regards to rogue disguise, it is not practical in an aggro situation simply because it lags you for about 30-60 seconds after attempting to use the kit, not to mention the cost. This is yet another area where spells provide an instant, !fail, superior replacement to a core rogue skill.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zoldren:
so then disquise + hide would still == rogues are CR mastas</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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Postby Zoldren » Tue Sep 17, 2002 2:40 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Nokie:
<B>I'm not sure if this is from you or Touk, it was confusing if you were quoting someone or not.

With regards to rogue disguise, it is not</B> practical in an aggro situation simply because it lags you for about 30-60 seconds after attempting to use the kit, not to mention the cost. This is yet another area where spells provide an instant, !fail, superior replacement to a core rogue skill.

</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


1) change self is not instant
2) agree down the cost of kits
3) reduce lag on it
4) would you then say it would be fessable or acceptable?
5) make kits in junction w/hide to work properly and not be tracked/smited

trying to find a middle ground


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Cap'n Touk

Ah the never ending good / evil debate has provided endless amusement for us all has it not? Both sides have a different mentality, evils appear to me as a closer nit group of people who expect a higher standard of play out of each other. Goodies are a broader group of people that cross group frequently and to me appear more easy going.

[This message has been edited by Zoldren (edited 09-17-2002).]
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Postby Zoldren » Tue Sep 17, 2002 2:43 pm

and this is my sig ..below

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Cap'n Touk

Ah the never ending good / evil debate has provided endless amusement for us all has it not? Both sides have a different mentality, evils appear to me as a closer nit group of people who expect a higher standard of play out of each other. Goodies are a broader group of people that cross group frequently and to me appear more easy going.
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Postby Nokie » Tue Sep 17, 2002 3:05 pm

1) Yeah it's not instant but a few seconds casting time is a hell of a lot
shorter than the 30-60 seconds we must endure with disguise now.

2) Yeah lower cost and more avalability other than havenport perhaps?

3) With the lag the way it is, it's not 'practical' in an aggro situation as you are sitting lagged for 20 seconds (I just did a test) I apologize for saying it is 60, I seem to remember it being a lot longer before, but maybe it was perception:

< 599h/599H 121v/121V >
< P: std > time %; disguise elf %; time
It is 6pm, on the day of the Great Gods
The 5th Day of the Month of Nightal (the Drawing Down), Year 445.
Time elapsed since boot-up: 11:18:38
Current time is: Tue Sep 17 11:03:06 2002 (EDT)
< 599h/599H 121v/121V >
< P: std > You disguise yourself into a elf.
< 599h/599H 121v/121V >
< P: std > It is 6pm, on the day of the Great Gods
The 5th Day of the Month of Nightal (the Drawing Down), Year 445.
Time elapsed since boot-up: 11:18:58
Current time is: Tue Sep 17 11:03:26 2002 (EDT)

5) If kits worked differently, like some have suggested, that might be a good middle-ground. I'm curious what other experienced rogues think?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zoldren:
<B>
1) change self is not instant
2) agree down the cost of kits
3) reduce lag on it
4) would you then say it would be fessable or acceptable?
5) make kits in junction w/hide to work properly and not be tracked/smited</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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Nokie 'No you don't!! That belongs to me!' Quickfingers
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Postby gnerble » Tue Sep 17, 2002 5:26 pm

Hello all,

If kits actually worked, and they were more available, I believe that this would be acceptable.

Actually, it would help rogues out. Currently, disguise really doesn't do anything. This would give us our normal sneak/hide skills for scouting etc. If the crap hits the fan while zoning, you better have some disguise kits, and be quick (and skilled) at using them.

On another note, please add 30 seconds to mem times like back in the day.. Thank you drive through! Image

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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Sep 17, 2002 5:42 pm

The times that it interests me the most are the zones where it already takes hours and hours to do them. Let's use scorps as an example, not the absolute worst, but not a cakewalk either.

1) This zone takes hours and hours, and then more hours if it goes awry. Being able to CR is crucial for many people who want to do the zone, because very few people really have the time to be able to sit in zones all day, not to mention the attention span. There are several zones out there that I would love to go to and spend all day in, but when you spend more time doing the CR than you do exploring the zone, the fun starts grinding to a halt to be replaced by frustration and annoyance.

2) If it can be avoided, nobody should EVER have to act as a sitter (and this isn't aimed strictly at scorps, there are other zones which require sitters all the way through). Does anybody come into this game to sit in one spot for hours at a time, especially when you have to sit alone? Sure you can communicate in tells and gsays, or on ooc, but it's just not the same as at least being able to move from one room to another without having to worry about getting your ass kicked.

3) Mobs will track you down before the lag of putting up a disguise would be over. You think being able to sneak and hide is twinky? I think insta-disguise is really twinky.

4) Once a high level mob tracks you down, you're dead. They search and destroy faster than you can hide. So much for mastering the skill.

5) Rogues are paying 30 plats for something a mage does with a spell. I never complained about it before recently, but nobody ever suggested it should be *required* for a zone. The skill notches unbelievably slowly, it's not really feasible to practice due to cost, so failing a disguise is still going to get a level 50 rogue with mastered sneak and hide skills dead. Yes, disguise fails. Yes, it can be failed multiple times in a row. Yes, there's still lag associated with a failed disguise attempt.

6) No sneak and hide in combo because it's too twinky? Give the cleric some sneak gear and let 'em go for the twinkishness. They can word if it screws up, right? Give the illus the sneak gear, look at the arsenal they have to keep them safe. Me, I'll take my sneak and hide skills and a pass without trace any day. You've given my skills away to the casters, wanna show me some lovin' while you're at it?

How in the world did rogue hide come under such scrutiny all of a sudden when Corth showed us a long time ago what certain casting classes are capable of? Hide/sneak is supposed to be twinky? How about a class that can heal themselves, globe themselves, stone themselves, and use pets to do all the dirty work?

I waived on the ability to solo anything that would have any decent gear. I waived on being able to have what some would consider the minimum amount of hitpoints in zone in order to keep me alive while I still used the kind of equipment that would allow me to contribute to my group as a hitter. I waived on any of the cool utility spells and accepted that I would spend half my time solo just trying to put together the resources to keep me supplied with the tools of my trade. I waived on the ability to travel to other planes so that I could do the quests I so love to do which are located there. I gave that all up for the unique skills of the rogue instead of playing a casting class. A year later and I realize I should have played an illusionist, because I would have had all the rogue skills plus all the others I waived on.

I worked my butt off getting these skills mastered. Hide is the number one loneliest skill to practice, because you have to be willing to sit for hours with nobody to chat with. You can talk to them, of course, but if your skill is working they can't talk to you unless they're in your group. You have to realize you will get NO zone offers when you're practicing the skill, so you have to give up doing anything else in order to practice it. Sneak you have to practice solo, as well, because if you try to use it in groups you'll get left behind due to the lag in the first 30-40 levels. If the sneak/hide combo is too twinky, then make the skills harder to practice. I have 114 pdays on this character, just in case you had any doubts about my devotion to it. Those people who want to spend the time and effort will master those skills, and those who don't will give up because the ability to sneak hidden is one of the fundamental makers of the rogue class. If you made those two skills notch a heck of a lot slower you'd have a lot more dead rogues, and a lot fewer rogues over time.

I'm pretty damned sick of people talking about how overpowered the rogue class is. We are completely dependant on our groups, just like a warrior. In the hardcore zones all the mobs are too high level to assassinate or steal from. Invokers still outdamage us. From what I understand evils don't even take rogues half the time because the casters do everything rogues are needed for on the goodie side. If the evil side knows anything at all, they sure know how to make do with limited resources, so if the rogue is that overpowered don't you think they'd be putting them to use more?

Garrote? Spell works better.
Trip? I can trip Padashaw! Plenty of casters can stun to stop him from casting too. They can also stun larger casters that I can't trip. 99% of the time he's silenced before he could have gotten his second spell off anyway.
Sneak? Please, we've disussed it and everybody knows what casters can do, not to mention items.
Hide? Same deal.
Disguise? Duh, see above.
Circle? I think it's already been determined that casters lay down much more smack, especially invokers. I have no area damage skill.
Backstab? Yeah, sure, I'll take that death for the split second my rescue actually works. Blink works too.
Poisons? Ummmm, I don't have a silence poison. I might get them blind before the casters do... maybe, but the casters are gonna get them blinded one way or another, and if I can't flee out mine's only a one shot try, not to mention exceedingly limited in duration. I've done rhemo's without using para and it's worked just as well, sometimes better, than when I go in and try to para. Oh, and tranq is kind of an area para, imagine that.
Steal? Can't see or steal it if it's hidden, can't steal off of mobs above a certain level (which in most hardcore zones they are). So if I can peek it, the mob gets killed, and if I can't peek it, the mob gets killed.
Assassinate? Can't do it on the higher level mobs in the hardcore zones. I've also noticed it tends to fail a LOT on the kinds of mobs you really want assassinated... you know, demons, wraiths, things like that. I don't think I've ever been able to assass a demon, even though they're in the acceptable level range. One of the best items I can actually assass for? TF chain! Whoooohooo! I don't wanna solo the damn noob gear, I wanna be an asset to my group. I don't sell it even though I need the cash anyway, I give it all away if I have it.
Pick Locks? Oh... no casters have this skill!!! It only works on locks which are pickable, and most of the locks in the hardcore zones aren't. Oh, and zonebuilders seem to want to use other avenues anyway, instead of doors. Keyworded locks can't be picked, and most doors that can be picked require a key.

Rogues have a nice combination of skills that allows us to explore zones. I rolled my rogue as an explorer. I keep telling people that's why I took the knocks on my other attributes in order to have a high intelligence. I went to Spiderhaunt with Xaril the other day and couldn't believe some of the things I saw him doing. These are things that would get me killed on the spot, but he's fearless because he knows he has the situation under control.

If you want to say that rogues are overpowered, then realize that if we really are, we are for the benefit of the group. If you take our other skills into consideration, there's nothing we can do that a caster can't do better and faster, except for picking locks. There's certainly nothing overpowered about our solo skills. I'd love to solo the thunderbeast, I can actually use the item that comes from that. I can't, but I know shamans can. I bet a necro could. Tod keeps saying how necro's can do this or that, but then says how rogues are overpowered... and we can't do what he can.

None of us were bitching, we just wanted to be left alone and have our place. Now I'm bitching because after 114 pdays I'm actually considering closeting the character. I can't even go into lower level zones and risk getting tagged by a mob, because they'll kick my ass. If I attempt assass and fail there's a good chance I'm dead... and if I do survive I won't be able to go back into that zone for the rest of that boot, and that's still only on mobs that con slightly higher than me or slightly lower than me, because I can't do that with anything higher.

OMG, does this sound like a whine? I'm not meaning to whine, but it cheeses me so hard when self-healing, self-globing, jerkwads out there soloing ARE YOU MAD mobs and higher are complaining because rogues are overpowered when we can't even touch those skills. We can't do what you can do for yourself, but we can do what we do for you.
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Postby Malacar » Tue Sep 17, 2002 6:14 pm

Self-globing jerk-wad checking in!

I am fully against this change. Like most changes recently, my judgement is it was done without much forethought. I see it as a reactionary change because one god probably got pissed at a player for doing X, Y, or Z thing. Maybe it was more, but I am doubtful on that. They then implemented this change. But this change was unneccessary.

Why? Because casting classes need to be looked at first. I am in full agreement with a majority of folks here, that melee types are virtually useless on this mud now. It was vamped up to make them fully reliable on casters, yet those same casters can solo things the melee can't.

An overhaul of the system needs to be made, but not from the melee side first, from the caster side. Make melee more useful, not more useless.

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Malacar - omg ymir!

[This message has been edited by Malacar (edited 09-17-2002).]
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Postby Mplor » Tue Sep 17, 2002 6:52 pm

I am the master of disguise.

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Zoldren

and this is my sig ..below
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Cap'n Touk

Ah the never ending good / evil debate has provided endless amusement for us all has it not? Both sides have a different mentality, evils appear to me as a closer nit group of people who expect a higher standard of play out of each other. Goodies are a broader group of people that cross group frequently and to me appear more easy going.


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Postby Eza » Tue Sep 17, 2002 7:10 pm

Ashiwi is my hero. Image
Well said Ash.

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- Booty Assasin -
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Postby Ensis » Tue Sep 17, 2002 8:41 pm

Before too many casters get amped that the subject is getting changed to target them, it really is kinda the whole point of the thread.

Take a combination of casters only and a combination of melee only and see what happens. The melee classes will get stomped, the casters will prevail, and may realize that they don't in fact need the melee classes anymore.

Cleric, Invoker, Illusionist, Necromancer, Shaman, Elementalist, and a Druid walk into a bar :P.. someones pet tanks, they uber spell it up a la PC meatshield and they go to town with damage/stun spells.

Warrior, Ranger, Paladin, Antipaladin, Rogue, Bard? walk into a bar. They might get it to few wounds before they have to flee and regroup.

Also, if you take group A and put it into a room with multiple mobs you get the same result, group B you get slaughtered, or else a 3 day long fight :P

The argument that Melee is easier at lower level than casting isn't valid, or at least it shouldn't be.

This thread just turned into a snowball about balance. Slowly but surely melee has lost its place and casters reign supreme. The removal of several melee classes and implementation of several new casters who are VASTLY more powerful than any of the said uber classes of old.



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Postby Anaram » Tue Sep 17, 2002 9:56 pm

Usually I try to keep my oppinions to myself, since they are just that, mine; But this thread is degrading to a point of rediculousness that I have to speak up about.

RANT ON!!!

1) Rogue Hide
WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, cry me a f***ing river. You have the best xp tables in the game, your can ascend levels faster then any other class in the mud (prove me wrong) and your single target damage is only slightly (again, prove me wrong) lower then an invokers. You don't have to worry bout MR or feedback, and to top it off, you have other useful skills that ARE still important. Complain that an invoker does more damage, DUH, that's why invokers exist. If illusionists can do your job so much better then you, then roll a f***ing illusionist and there ya go, you have it all don't you. You want to do damage, roll an invoker, cheer you can do damage now (and not much more) (Though I can hear you bitching about demons, undead, and dragons already since a rogue can do more damage against them then an invoker "get rid of MR, I did more damage as my rogue against deva" :P)

2) Casters are UBER
Slowest ascension through the xp tables. You acctually have to pay attention to play a mage class, you die more often (on average) and generaly have a harder time to get to "zoning level". Also, lets not just dump all casters into a single stereotype, you say illusionists are overpowered, I agree with you there. Shamans are UBER, hell yes. But lets look at a few things before you just start slinging shit at the casters and those of us who have worked our asses off to get to where we are..

Invokers: Damage, NO other uses, dies when a stiff breeze blows, yeah.. UBER :P

Enchanters: Hard as hell to level, used for protection, that's bout it. Can they solo
things, over the course of about 5 hours maybe :P

Illusionists: They are overly powerful, but they can't do anything the sorcs of the past couldn't do save for sneaking around a bit easier.

Necro: No comment :P

Shaman: Powerful at the start, but later levels are only used for gheal :P yep, that's WAY overpowered.

Cleric: duty is to heal, so they do their job and that's about it.. Sounds alot like invokers to me, singly trick dogs ...

Everyone has a nitch to fill, if you don't like your nitch, or don't like where that nitch has gone since you started playing your class, then change classes or find a new nitch. If you are playing because you want to be UBER, then maybe your playing the wrong class. Why did people play rogues in old toril.. Why play shaman in old toril before pets came on.. Because they were classes that said player wanted to play, not because they were UBER, just because they enjoyed the class. If you don't like your class, get the F*** out and play somthing more to your choosing. (hell if you have high level friends which I assume you do, leveling your mage shouldn't be hard)

3) Downgrades:
We bitch when a class gets downgraded
We bitch when a class gets upgraded
We bitch when a class stays the same

I want a class that has full heal, elemental pets, force missile, embody, tanking skills, sneaking skills, gate, relocate, inferno, dragon scales, specialize everything, quadruple attacks and can wear everything... I want to be able to kill ChiaPet (tiamat) in one hit with my 1 million d 1 sword with +50 thousand hit/dam. Heh, a little overexagerant I know, but it seems like that is the only thing that would make some people happy. Again, if you don't like your class or don't like the way the game is heading for your specific class or race or EQ or whatever, then get the F*** out.

5) Sitters and Zoning
Can we PLEASE get over ourselves and remember there is a whole nother world out there. It's called PC's who are either less then zoning level, or don't care to zone, or don't have time to zone. Funny how this change isn't being overly bitched about by those players. Wonder why that is. Spare me that they don't use the skill that often, do you really think this one change is going to affect the zoning population all that much :P So you might have to have a sitter for certain BIG fights, that big fight might last 30 mins to an hour, You might even have to have a sitter for the entire zone. Hell, bring me along.. I'll pack my house while I sit, and still get a grab at the gear. On top of that, I don't have to worry about dying Xteen number of times due to a manscorp breathing on me :P

Stop bitching about your classes, if you don't like the game, don't like your class, don't like your gear, don't like the downgrades, don't like the upgrades (boggle) don't like the players, don't like the gods, don't like the zones don't like... blah blah blah, stop bitching and wasting the time of the Immorts to Run it. All in all, save your f***ing breath for someone who gives a shit. The gods do things for a vision only they know about. You sure as hell don't know what is going on behind the scenes, so don't assume you do. As I said before, if you don't like it... Get the F*** out!

RANT OFF!!!

I feel better now.

-Ana




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Postby Ensis » Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:08 pm

I think Anaram needs a little nap or something Image

In case you hadn't realized it yet, we dont have the player base for a "putup or shutup" attitude. We've lost numerous good players due to things as simple as class neglect, or even lack of a heads up here and there noting that the issues being complained about are being noted and worked on.

As for the greater vision or grand scheme of things, people wouldn't bitch if we could get a little glimpse of what does go on behind the scenes. Not that they have to run it by us, but it'd be nice once in awhile to see "we're thinking about putting this in, thoughts?"




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Postby Cirath » Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:14 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Anaram:
<B>If illusionists can do your job so much better then you, then roll a f***ing illusionist and there ya go, you have it all don't you. You want to do damage, roll an invoker, cheer you can do damage now (and not much more)
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

why is this always the answer people seem to have? if we wanted to be mages, dot you think we would have rolled them by now? i dont want to play a mage, i like being a rogue. the point is not that we want to be super powerful, the point is that we want to not be useless. you know what i use hide for the most? to survive when something large and nasty gets mad at me. guess what? i cant now cause the only things that cant find me before hide lag ends is stuff i can solo.

lets give all your skills to some other class and downgrade you, then see how you respond.

-Cirath, disgruntled rogue
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Postby Nokie » Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:21 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Anaram:
your can ascend levels faster then any other class in the mud (prove me wrong)</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Paladins. Example: Aryk. If you don't know what I'm talking about then you shouldn't have made this argument in the first place.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Anaram:
You don't have to worry bout MR or feedback</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, we just have to worry about mob defensive skills. Just a different type of apple.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Anaram:
If illusionists can do your job so much better then you, then roll a f***ing illusionist and there ya go, you have it all don't you.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you think that's a realistic solution? Illusionists came in AFTER rogues. Furthermore, Rogues are seeing their unique skills erroded or replaced by spells which do the same thing but only better.

Anaram are you suggesting that Rogues, Rangers, Dire Raiders, Paladins, Anti-Paladins, and possibly even warriors should be dropped as classes and people play invokers or whatever instead? Is that your solution?

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Nokie 'No you don't!! That belongs to me!' Quickfingers
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Postby Anaram » Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:22 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Cirath:
<B> why is this always the answer people seem to have? if we wanted to be mages, dot you think we would have rolled them by now? i dont want to play a mage, i like being a rogue. the point is not that we want to be super powerful, the point is that we want to not be useless. you know what i use hide for the most? to survive when something large and nasty gets mad at me. guess what? i cant now cause the only things that cant find me before hide lag ends is stuff i can solo.

lets give all your skills to some other class and downgrade you, then see how you respond.

-Cirath, disgruntled rogue</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hrm, your use for hide is somthing invokers have to live without. Funny that I have been able to do so thus far. As far as downgrade and give to some other class, gee, name a mage class that DOESN'T have area spells, and ask that again :P

I said my piece, take it or leave it, honestly, I don't care. Flames welcome and ignored...

-Ana


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Postby Cirath » Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:31 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Anaram:
<B>
Hrm, your use for hide is somthing invokers have to live without. Funny that I have been able to do so thus far.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

if i could gate or relocate i wouldnt need it either now would i?
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Postby Anaram » Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:31 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Nokie:
<B> Do you think that's a realistic solution? Illusionists came in AFTER rogues. Furthermore, Rogues are seeing their unique skills erroded or replaced by spells which do the same thing but only better.

Anaram are you suggesting that Rogues, Rangers, Dire Raiders, Paladins, Anti-Paladins, and possibly even warriors should be dropped as classes and people play invokers or whatever instead? Is that your solution?

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First, I'm responding to this message only because I do respect you, nokie as one of the finest players on this game, and thusly feel out of respect, I should respond.

I am not suggesting anything, It was a rant because I'm sick and tired of hearing incesant whining on the BBS. No matter what the immorts do, good or bad, there is always SOMEONE who needs to complain about it.

IMHO (keep that in mind) I do see this change as a big change for rogues, but it certainly does not make them useless. My suggestion of rolling another class was simply to illustrate the point that if a class is infact "useless", then why would you continue to play it if all your enjoyment in the game is based strictly on that one skill.

-Ana

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Postby Corth » Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:57 pm

Heh, perhaps I'm the wrong person to make this point. Sneak/hide is only doable by rogues, and ONE illusionist. I'm not trying to downplay the valid fact that rogue non-melee skills are getting diminished or replicated in other classes. I'd just point out that their most important non-melee skill is only doable by one illusionist, myself, and only because I was lucky enough to obtain a certain tia item.

I will readily admit that an illusionist that can sneak/hide is MUCH more powerful than a rogue when you take into account such spells as dim, fold, mislead, change self, mirror image, etc. But I think it would be unfair to say that your typical illusionist without a sneak item is so horrendously overpowered. Currently, illusionists are better at holding pop in zones after a spank, and rogues are more sneaky.

As for my own ability to sneak/hide as an illusionist, I think it is debateable whether I should be able to do it. On one hand, once an illusionist gets a sneak item, they are much more powerful than rogues in regard to their sneakyness. On the other hand, only a good aligned illusionist could ever do it (unless snakes grow feet), and after a year of sojourn 3 being up, only one has been able to get the requisite item.

Corth

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Postby Alomlim » Tue Sep 17, 2002 11:17 pm

This invoker grumbling is widespread, and completely mysterious to me! Let's make sure to spread the love around to all the casters Image

First off, we don't have a cornered market on direct damage spells that rock. Granted, I'm only lvl 45, but lots of hours on smoke suggest to me that Nightmare, in particular, completely shreds stuff just like force missiles or better, but with kickass side effects. I'm sure the 3rd missile will tip things towards force missiles, but it has competitors.

And maybe those quest area spells really do rip things up (I wouldn't know), but incendiary clouds are nothing to write home about, mostly because of their extended casting time. I see more butt kickage per-second coming forth from the dooming/hailing/ancestral furying side of the world.

Finally, in terms of damage over time, like when doing XP, or doing a zone where the leader doesn't take breaks, hasted hitters aren't that far off from vokers. On the ship I've gone from having to mem 100s of nook to having to mem only 60s of nook by the addition of a hasted rogue. I haven't checked in on ranger archery since all its ups and downs, but it used to rock! Memming sucks, and when you factor in all that time of not doing damage, those damage-dealing casters you're dragging around the Jot grid start to look like a lotta dead weight until it comes time for a big fight.


I constantly hear "Oh yeah, that zone went well cuz of you vokers" and I look around and it's just me and some other low-40s guy slinging incendiary clouds. Let's give the rest of the world some credit!

In my opinion the thing that makes zones go well is disgustingly brutish warriors, ghealing, and shitloads of timely rescuing.

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-Alomlim [edited to give props to disgustingly brutish warriors]

[This message has been edited by Alomlim (edited 09-17-2002).]
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Postby Kifle » Tue Sep 17, 2002 11:37 pm

Well, since nokie said what i was going to say, i will limit myself.

Anaram, you are by far the biggest jack ass that has posted anything in this thread....and the sad thing is, daz posted...more than once. (J/k daz Image)

if we were to say uh...take away your area spells and nerf your single target spells to do less damage than a round of melee class, what would you say after lvling your chr up to whatever plvl you are now? You would bitch and moan and be a hypocrite. What if rogues got gate/relo items/skills along with the nerfs there were afore mentioned... you wouldnt be invited anymore because you would be usless...and you are a jackass, but the icing on the cake would be that you are useless. Ashiwi, nokie, cirath, and myself have probably all played this game for an exponential amount of years compared to you...it is sad that even the majority of the caster community is behind us melee players on this and you are still in your "omg they are whining i better go make an ass out of myself" mode. Among these we have corth, dornax, and malacar on our side. This alone should have stopped you from posting your nonsense.

In that 5 minutes you decided to infect us with your ignorance you only looked at a single variable in this thread, that people complained about something. You didnt even check to see if it was a viable complaint.

adios.

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Postby Calinth » Tue Sep 17, 2002 11:41 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Alomlim:
<B>This invoker grumbling is widespread, and completely mysterious to me! Let's make sure to spread the love around to all the casters Image

First off, we don't have a cornered market on direct damage spells that rock. Granted, I'm only lvl 45, but lots of hours on smoke suggest to me that Nightmare, in particular, completely shreds stuff just like force missiles or better, but with kickass side effects. I'm sure the 3rd missile will tip things towards force missiles, but it has competitors.

And maybe those quest area spells really do rip things up (I wouldn't know), but incendiary clouds are nothing to write home about, mostly because of their extended casting time. I see more butt kickage per-second coming forth from the dooming/hailing/ancestral furying side of the world.


I constantly hear "Oh yeah, that zone went well cuz of you vokers" and I look around and it's just me and some other low-40s guy slinging incendiary clouds. Let's give the rest of the world some credit!

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for making the point about invokers. If you're comparing your 8th circle non quest spells to 10th circle quest spells of other casters, and saying your spells are only slightly worse, obviously there's at least reason for people to complain.

And in any zone fight with multiple mobs, even with 2 or 3 hitters, plus the same number of tanks all fighting mob number 1, by the time that mob dies, every other mob in the room is at least down to nasty wounds, more likely pretty hurt.
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Postby Daz » Tue Sep 17, 2002 11:52 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kifle:
<B>Anaram, you are by far the biggest jack ass that has posted anything in this thread....and the sad thing is, daz posted...more than once. (J/k daz Image)

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rofl, I CAN laugh at myself as well as the next person Kifle :P

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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
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Postby Orvik » Wed Sep 18, 2002 12:01 am

After a day to think about it (alhough very little play testing)
I feel the removal of hide's ability to 100% protect a rogue is in the best interest of the game. it is now no more powerful after a spank than the mage spell invisible. some mobs have di, some have sense life. there are problems w/ this change though. In particular it has removed one of the most precious values a rogue provided to a group (while leaving in mass morph, which I think does the exact same thing for an illusionist, anyone confirm?)

All this talk about rogue vs invoker vs ranger vs illusionist is just pointless. Rogues are much closer to being similar to illusionists than invokers but they are hardly parallels of each other. sure they both can stun mobs, hide, have some defensive abilities, do good damage but they both have unique skills as well.

Rogues are down this week, bards had been down for years as well as other classes (anti Image )Rogues and rangers have a lot in common, and the one trait they both share is that the players who play them tend to be protective of their in-game identiies. there are more rogues and rangers who only play that one class than -any- other class (imo) which is why they are heard shouting the loudest when they 'get the shaft'

So the question becomes, what are the long term plans for the rogue class again? masters of melee? and is that enough to make anyone want to play a rogue for any reason other than RP

more later or something..

-Pythrrus

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Postby Anaram » Wed Sep 18, 2002 12:12 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kifle:
<B>Well, since nokie said what i was going to say, i will limit myself.

Anaram, you are by far the biggest jack ass that has posted anything in this thread....and the sad thing is, daz posted...more than once. (J/k daz Image)

if we were to say uh...take away your area spells and nerf your single target spells to do less damage than a round of melee class, what would you say after lvling your chr up to whatever plvl you are now? You would bitch and moan and be a hypocrite. What if rogues got gate/relo items/skills along with the nerfs there were afore mentioned... you wouldnt be invited anymore because you would be usless...and you are a jackass, but the icing on the cake would be that you are useless. Ashiwi, nokie, cirath, and myself have probably all played this game for an exponential amount of years compared to you...it is sad that even the majority of the caster community is behind us melee players on this and you are still in your "omg they are whining i better go make an ass out of myself" mode. Among these we have corth, dornax, and malacar on our side. This alone should have stopped you from posting your nonsense.

In that 5 minutes you decided to infect us with your ignorance you only looked at a single variable in this thread, that people complained about something. You didnt even check to see if it was a viable complaint.

adios.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kifle,

Don't assume you know me. You know NOTHING about me nor how long I have played. You know nothing of what I know, nor how I play this mud. The people who I group with and talk with are the only ones who know how long I have played here, or even know why I play. You are not one of those people, so don't assume you know anything about me.

-Ana

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Postby Kifle » Wed Sep 18, 2002 12:18 am

thats why we lub ya daz.

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Postby Kifle » Wed Sep 18, 2002 12:38 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Anaram:
<B> Kifle,

Don't assume you know me. You know NOTHING about me nor how long I have played. You know nothing of what I know, nor how I play this mud. The people who I group with and talk with are the only ones who know how long I have played here, or even know why I play. You are not one of those people, so don't assume you know anything about me.

-Ana

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Ok, so you might have played, but dont know shit about the dymaics of the mud. Forgive me, but it makes little difference.

When you see some kid saying "stay away from alligators, especially the orange ones with yellow stripes" you look at that kid and say, "You have no idea what you are talking about" and you can assume that person either is a huge crack head, or has never really seen an alligator so should shut his mouth...

you are that kid, nuff said.


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[This message has been edited by Kifle (edited 09-17-2002).]
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Sep 18, 2002 12:42 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Anaram:
All in all, save your f***ing breath for someone who gives a shit. The gods do things for a vision only they know about. You sure as hell don't know what is going on behind the scenes, so don't assume you do. As I said before, if you don't like it... Get the F*** out!</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Anaram:
Don't assume you know me. You know NOTHING about me nor how long I have played. You know nothing of what I know, nor how I play this mud. The people who I group with and talk with are the only ones who know how long I have played here, or even know why I play. You are not one of those people, so don't assume you know anything about me.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since most of your post seemed to be directed at mine, let me just point out that I usually try very hard to not open my mouth about something I know nothing about. Perhaps all assumptions should stop?

I love the rogue class, and if this change remains then I shall learn to work around it. The vehemence of your post was neither necessary nor well founded, since... let me quote... "You know nothing of what I know, nor how I play this mud."
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Postby Jurdex » Wed Sep 18, 2002 12:49 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Posted by Anaram:

Everyone has a nitch to fill, if you don't like your nitch, or don't like where that nitch has gone since you started playing your class, then change classes or find a new nitch. If you are playing because you want to be UBER, then maybe your playing the wrong class. Why did people play rogues in old toril.. Why play shaman in old toril before pets came on.. Because they were classes that said player wanted to play, not because they were UBER, just because they enjoyed the class. If you don't like your class, get the F*** out and play somthing more to your choosing. (hell if you have high level friends which I assume you do, leveling your mage shouldn't be hard)
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe the fact everyone has a "niche" to fill is the problem. Certain zones are near impossible without certain spells. That is just the sad state of affairs. However, name one zone that is not doable without a hitter?

Unless you need doors picked or traps disarmed, you're coming up blank.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Hrm, your use for hide is somthing invokers have to live without. Funny that I have been able to do so thus far.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dimension door, gate and relocate are also very very useful in getting away from a mob you've pissed off. As is word of recall or plane shift. Yes, hide was better in the sense it could work anywhere, but don't act like you had no ability to get safe while rogues could just hide.

Anyway, one trick ponies suck when you have so many classes that are one trick ponies. It was a lot more fun when there were fewers classes that had much more diverse abilities.

Now every caster class except the cleric has an offensive area damage spell. That is a problem because if you have 8-10 casters you've got a lot of area spells going off. It also cuts into the invoker, but in the end it really hurts the hitters more than anything.

However, if that were scaled back, you'd have those other classes suffering. If druids didnt do decent area damage why would you bring them? I guess mass transit but an illus is just as good (and can do it easier and faster and gets it sooner than a druid gets moonwell). Shaman? Well, they mostly have to gheal anyway.

There are problems here and there. I don't think hide is the biggest issue at hand, I think a balancing of the classes is more the real issue. I loved my warrior, but frankly his abilities mean nothing if he doesn't have spells cast on him.

Dornax
Jurdex

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Postby Wargo » Wed Sep 18, 2002 1:10 am

Well since constructive feedbacks have just been blatantly diverted by Anaram, I'll try to bring it back on target:

As it stands, I will take an illusionist over any rogue for zoning purposes. Locked doors are no concern to me. We have ogre doorbashers. As for locked/trapped objects, that's what squid shift is for. Shift a rogue in, pay him for his service, shift him back out.

Yssilk
Evils will officially zone without a single hitter now! Image

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