Toril Edit

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
Elseenas
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Postby Elseenas » Tue Dec 18, 2001 8:43 am

Design Doc has been started and will be posted in the next few days.

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cherzra
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Postby cherzra » Wed May 29, 2002 8:59 am

Here's something that may interest you. Saeven, an old Basternae player, is now making his own mud and he also created a zone builder.

It looks pretty damn good, and the file output is supposedly usable by all muds, as long as you use the right template.

It's also supposed to be able to use any object/room/zone variables you want, as long as this template file is ok.

If this is true, it could be used for S3, and it's written in Java.

There's some more info on it here, but you need to spend 30 seconds to create a BBS account first:

http://www.saeven.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=15&start=0

Image


Edit: messed around to get the image link working


[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 05-29-2002).]
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Postby kiryan » Wed May 29, 2002 11:13 am

looks awesome. the one i was working on did 3d views and allowed you to rotate zones before i quit working on it as a result of this project.

btw, 9 months later you guys havent even finished design docs. ready to give up yet elseenas? im still waiting for you to let me know when your project is dead.
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Postby Kyos » Wed May 29, 2002 11:27 am

Nice.

[This message has been edited by Kyos (edited 05-29-2002).]
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Wed May 29, 2002 2:49 pm

I'm slightly peeved that only now is there a graphical editor :P But I am sure it will be of great use to others.

I applaud your efforts.

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terix
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Postby terix » Thu May 30, 2002 2:20 am

three word ....


.NET


.... just kidding.

I do have to admit though C# is very nice, beats the hell out of MFC/C++ GUI programming.
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Postby Lirathal » Thu May 30, 2002 2:26 am

Graphical editor for a text based game :P

Think out it Image

Image
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Postby Nokie » Thu May 30, 2002 2:28 am

C# r00ls!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by terix:
<B>three word ....


.NET


.... just kidding.

I do have to admit though C# is very nice, beats the hell out of MFC/C++ GUI programming.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



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Postby Sarvis » Thu May 30, 2002 2:55 am

Hrm... so did TorilEdit just die?

Also, since a couple of you seem to like C#... is there any good online stuff to learn it? I'm trying to find a job right now, and having a newer language on my resume might help I think... heh.

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Postby Teyaha » Thu May 30, 2002 4:15 am

hrm, have to compile myself?

crappy. visual C++ all i got and i dont have it installed cause it eats up 1.6gb of my hd
Saeven
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Postby Saeven » Thu May 30, 2002 5:05 am

First let me introduce myself though some of you might know me already; I code over at saeven.net, I'm in a PhD program currently working on finishing up my masters in Software Engineering at the University of Carleton in Ottawa Canada.

I'm reading through this thread, and what I read is alot of repeated nonsense that I read most elsewhere as well.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I have several reasons for not wanting this done in Java. Nonetheleast of which is that this is exactly the kind of app that Java was not designed for.
It has heavy use of opening windows, file swapping, and speed--while not critical--is a factor. Also, learning Java can be a pain for nonprogrammers.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

also...

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I was worried about the speed of java code, and while its not stellar, its more than adequate for most people i think. If your a high performance freak your not going to use a fukin gui anyhow youll use toriledit or some wordprocessor. </font>


This would be true 8 years ago when Java was something built to contractually create Internet browser enhancements; things have however changed since and Java achieves native code speeds with JRE 1.4 - translation - Java byte code is interpreted just as fast as your processor can take it.

This also threw me off:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">In something so basic as this (not to discount its usefulness mind you) any language will really be able to handle the project. I will shoot down java any day in deference to C++ though.</font>


I've about 16 years experience with C++, and have coded a Stochastic Iterated Hill Climbing engine that developed its own language in C++. You know, the only department where C++ outshines all other languages is when you have to code in mixed-mode environments, use specific interrupts, or are doing bitwise programming. Every code a GUI for a non-linux platform in C++? They turn out shoddy as hell, I'd rather code them in MFC if you want to take that much time doing it. Java has exactly that purpose, to create GUIs that are respondent to open platforms.

I later on read this, which was also absolutely ridiculous:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Also: from my experience with Java I learned the lesson DO NOT USE SWING.
Tkinter isn't nearly as nasty as Swing is in terms of speed or compatiability.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know where you got your code information Elseenas, but it's quite so time to reevaluate your knowledge. Swing is a lightweight container version of Java that uses get/set systems to call and direct procedures. The ADTs in Swing are almost all container oriented, go look at the 1.4 API, mostly everything that is Java that doesn't work with SWING is now classified as deprecated and has notifiers about how it'll be unsupported in future releases. Swing has by far the faster components vs the heavyweight set that the old AWT offers. Had you even delved into SWING slightly without discounting it, you'd appreciate the quality of the visual components and their interoperability. SWING is a very easy language to code, it's the first thing they teach you at the University I've obtained my Bachelors at. Speed an issue? No way. Speed is a function of the amount of objects that your code creates and involves. If you are an intelligent programmer, you could make a SWING app that boots just as fast as any other application. What slows Java down just a tad is a poor programmer's incurrence of the abstract mechanisms that java provides. It's the abused abstraction between all Java's layers that makes them slow - perhaps that is why your opinion is tided that way.

Elseenas you also wrote this:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">8) It was designed w/ large projects in mind, as opposed to Java which was designed with small projects in mind.</font>


Java for small projects? Jesus, take a look at this page:

http://java.sun.com/pr/archive/pr_2001.html

I wouldn't call mapping the human genome, or running a 64-stacked threaded CPU system to operate NASDAQ (stock market) listeners small projects!

I don't plan to convince you that JAva is the ultimate language, but I have to defend a great language. Python is a C spinoff, basically a repackaged JIT system. It's a great garden language and has its uses, but it'll never ever compare to what Java can do. Christ, Python doesn't even have a switch statment, there's no compiler
to native code, there's no automatic garbage collection ( poor memory management ensues ) and for what Python is worth, Perl more easily takes care of one-liners. Python's worst drawback is that there's no shared resource library for it ( like CPAN for perl ).

Using TK with Python is like using Fox and C++. It's just not something a contractor would pay for, it's an easy way out.

In any case no hard feelings I hope! I just don't like to see false info passed around.

If at any point you don't feel like coding a prog anymore, you're more than welcome to look into the zonemaker I've built, in Java, from saeven.net in the forum section - I'll customize a template for you guys if you want. The program is free to use.

Cheers,
Saeven
Teyaha
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Postby Teyaha » Thu May 30, 2002 5:16 am

if you could let us know how the average schmo like me can get your program to run in a windows 98 environment that'd rock

or is it linux/unix only?
Elseenas
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Postby Elseenas » Thu May 30, 2002 6:12 am

chezra:

Thanks, I'll take a look.

Saeven:

To clarify something rq: Your qualifications mean nothing to me.

I've met Ph.D. programmers who couldn't program linked lists, others who made copious use of the "friends" keyword in C++ and considered it "good programming", and people who have been "top programmers" who couldn't figure out fortran.

I've also met people who have been programming less than 3 years who can satisfactorily complete NACHOS/OSP projects on a schedule with no training, others who could program eigenproblem packages with no qualms.

Not to say that you don't have ability, just that without actually looking at your documentation and code I am not willing to judge.

You are also attributing quite a bit to me that I did not say. Kindly name your attributes or do not generalize them.

As to the rest of it, I have no idea why you felt the need to resurrect dead arguments. If you care to debate them I am more than willing, but as far as I am concerned these arguments are dead and buried: the evidence stands for itself.

I stand by my benchmarking, my past experiences, and the past experiences and the research of others.

I am also a strong advocate of the philosophy of If It Works, Use It™ Image

No hard feelings, just see no reason to argue on this one Image

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[This message has been edited by Elseenas (edited 05-30-2002).]
Mplor
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Postby Mplor » Thu May 30, 2002 7:47 am

Saevan, thanks for your offer. Will you tell us what info you'd need from us to create a template for Sojourn development? All of my zone-building starts have ended incomplete in the morass of text-based editors . . .

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apprentice
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Postby apprentice » Thu May 30, 2002 11:20 am

Well Elseenas, seeing as how Saeven actually created a rather nice zone builder and you seemed to get stuck on the design docks, I think most people will take his word over yours. His degree and the mud he pretty much wrote himself may not mean much to you, but I'll take them over those 'experiences' you said you prefer.

Anyway, template, template!
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Postby Saeven » Thu May 30, 2002 2:45 pm

Elseenas I meant no disrespect of course, and the things I've denoted are fact - and aren't disputable as a result. Your philosophy of if it works use it I must agree with; but given that we are wanting to code an application for something mud related - we have to ensure portability and reusability and more importantly modular comstruction - Java was a good language for these reasons. I won't kick a dead horse, however

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">To clarify something rq: Your qualifications mean nothing to me.</font>


Is somewhat of a strange thing to say; I bet you like to go see qualified general practitioners when you have an ailment. We go through grueling studies in Canadian universities, the attrition rate in 4th year is 72%. Only 34 of us got our Bachelors in software engineering out of a first year lot of about 400. And trust me hehehe, linked lists are not a problem!

For those interested then!
I will finish up my site at http://saeven.net/szm during the day as soon as I post the 1.01 of the builder. I posted it as unfinished-yet-functional; this subversion will remedy most every unfinished end. I will discuss in the szm site how to customize the template and the szm fields. Everything in the zonemaker runs off of one file called MudConstants to which I'll release the source to MudAdmins. Compiling that file and updating the JAR package should remedy 80% of the tailoring.

Talk soon,
Saeven

feel free to email me.
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Postby Sarvis » Thu May 30, 2002 4:15 pm

"You know, the only department where C++ outshines all other languages is when you have to code in mixed-mode environments, use specific interrupts, or are doing bitwise programming. Every code a GUI for a non-linux platform in C++? They turn out shoddy as hell, I'd rather code them in MFC if you want to take that much time doing it. "

Ack! Rampant C++ bashing... damned Java
programers. Image

All java really has going for it is a bunch of good libraries and garbage collection. However, I think the sheer power and flexibility of C++ (especially the STL) far surpasses anything Java has to offer.


Elseenas and Saeven:

I can think of only one way to settle this dispute. You both need to go to <a href=http://www.topcoder.com>www.topcoder.com</a> and register to compete tonight. Then whichever one of you comes out with the highest rating wins the argument. Oh yeah, and don't forget to put Telos in the referral field. Not for the referral bonus, I assure you! :whistles innocently:

Ok, I should probably feel bad about that... but I want referral bonuses dammit, and I think you two would probably win a lot. Besides, it _is_ really fun... except on those occasions where the problems are nearly impossible... heh.

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Saeven
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Postby Saeven » Thu May 30, 2002 4:46 pm

Hehe actually Sarvis Image I code in C++ 80% of the time, java 10%, 8088 10%.

I know what school you're coming from, I was a pretty diehard C++ nerd coming into university as well. C++ is cool because it is a "lowly typed language". Which means that you can pretty much do anything you want - you might not get expected results - but the compiler won't whine. Bitwise C++ is a ferrari compared to most other languages ( excluding C which is just as fast, and assembler which often achieves same or better results in memory cramped environments ). I've done my share of C++ hehe, christ SaevenX is mixed mode C/C++/8086 so I'm on your side!

Java however just kicks some serious ass GUI wise, I read some press releases at sun about what's planned for 1.5 and it'll be just incredible, they've even released a 3D renderer prototype!! While C++ basically has the GPL going for it ( non profit ) and is user based, Java has zillions of Sun dollars being poured into it. Processors are hitting 2.4 ghz and rendering gigatexels per second now, speed isn't the same issue it used to be. Java will gain popularity quickly, and C/C++ will always have its place.
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Postby Grungar » Thu May 30, 2002 4:46 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Elseenas:
<B>I've also met people who have been programming less than 3 years who can satisfactorily complete NACHOS/OSP projects on a schedule with no training, others who could program eigenproblem packages with no qualms.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can satisfactorily complete nachos too. No training required. Chips + cheese + optional toppings + me = mmmmm...

- Grungar "Nachos! Mmm..." Forgefire
Saeven
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Postby Saeven » Thu May 30, 2002 4:52 pm

Hey Sarvis!

I've registered and put Telos in the field Image

Nice site.

The zone admin part is up on my space, http://saeven.net/szm/

Pce guys,
Saeven
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Postby Sarvis » Thu May 30, 2002 5:12 pm

Hrm... I guess I can't argue the GUI stuff too much. I haven't done a whole lot in Java, or MFC really... but MFC seemed decent for what I tried. :shrug:

One thing I've noticed on topcoder (and at school) is that java programmers tend to use a lot more brute force in their solutions. Not that my code is usually all _that_ elegant, but when you see people coding a different if statement for each possible condition you gotta wonder. I've had the theory that Java might be a bad language to start with simply _because_ of it's ease of use. Especially garbage collection, throw a java programmer into a C++ project and he's going to have to deal with a lot of crap he never has before. Throw a C++ programmer into a Java project and he'll moan a bit about all the compile errors, but the program'll probably run fine in the end.

Cool on the topcoder thing, you gonna compete tonight? Starts at 10pm eastern time. Elseenas? Would actually really like to see what you can do... heh.


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Postby Nokie » Thu May 30, 2002 5:16 pm

ooooh topcoder! Is that like "Iron Chef"?!

Nokie checks the TV listings for a televized "top coder" competition...

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Postby Grungar » Thu May 30, 2002 6:45 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Nokie:
<B>ooooh topcoder! Is that like "Iron Chef"?!

Nokie checks the TV listings for a televized "top coder" competition...

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Iron Chef for computer nerds. Oh how I wish I spoke computer better. I still pick up the mouse and talk into it like Scotty in Star Trek IV.

- Grungar "Noo Klee Ahr Wessels" Forgefire
Elseenas
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Postby Elseenas » Thu May 30, 2002 8:07 pm

saeven:

Fair enough Image

I just get sick of people listing their credentials to me and then not being able to program a linked list (yes, that really happened, I thought I was going to fall out of my chair).

apprentice:

Come live my life before criticizing the distance I've come on this project. Its called priorities.

Right now I am leading a team that is developing a program in Java using Ascape libraries in order to model societies in third world countries for determining the payoff (emergence) from different strategies of aid deployment.

I have a team and a tight schedule I have to keep, what do you think takes precedence in my life?



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moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Thu May 30, 2002 8:42 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Elseenas:
<B>
I have a team and a tight schedule I have to keep, what do you think takes precedence in my life?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The BBS, of course! So you can continue to spin! Image
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Postby Ragorn » Fri May 31, 2002 12:25 pm

So about this zone editor Image How much knowledge of Sojourn zone editing will it take to use? I know nothing of templates or the way the text editor works, I just know I dropped all 3 of my zone making projects because of glaring inadequacis in TorilEdit.

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Who failed out of CS his first semester.
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Postby Saeven » Fri May 31, 2002 8:02 pm

I just need one of your zone people to contact with the details mentioned at:

http://saeven.net/szm/administrator.htm

And it'll be a piece of cake. If you use it and find there's an inadequacy - let me know and I'll work something out; I code for people to use things and like to make them happy - if you want it, most likely others will as well.
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Postby Shevarash » Fri May 31, 2002 8:42 pm

Saeven -

Your editor looks very nice, and *I* agree with the use of Java. Image

I'll look into this a little more and discuss it with our zone boss, Cyric.



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Postby Grungar » Wed Jul 31, 2002 8:53 am

*supa bumpity bump bump*

Soooooo, any update on either of these? TE just ate my .mob and .zon files, so I gotta start all over with those. Oh, the joy!


I will finish this area, I will finish this area, I will finish this area, I will finish this area, I will finish this area, I will finish this area, I will finish this area...


Ok screw this, I need sleep.

- Grungar "Calm blue ocean... Calm blue ocean... Calm blue ocean" Forgefire
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Postby Galkar » Wed Jul 31, 2002 11:57 am

I've just started using TE, I don't think it's really that bad. Of course, i'm used to using OLC on other muds, so that may be why. One thing I've always liked to do though, which I can't seem to do, is make a test character, full out, and actually explore the zone as if I were a player. I test out mobs, try doing the quests as if I had never done them, etc. Just gives me a good feeling of what people will see when they first enter the zone. Anywho, the java editor a few posts back looks like it would be a breeze to use.....

I'll second that bump!

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Postby Dlur » Wed Jul 31, 2002 12:49 pm

The best process I've found so for for Soj zone creation is to build the frame of the zone using modified OasisOLC on CircleMUD, make the rooms, mobs, and objs but mostly the descriptions.

Then use a text editor to get the zone to load up in TE. Give stuff stats and flesh it out a bit more.

Then everything gets edited in finally in a text editor to finalize everything and write up the socials and quest files.

This is a painstaking process and I'd eventually like to modify the CircleMUD port to use standard Soj3 zone files, but that's a real pain in the ass.

If I had everything set up to work in OLC I'd be able to finish a 200 room zone in about 2 weeks. As it is right now that's much longer due to the conversions that need to take place and TE itself. TE sucks.

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Postby celara » Thu Aug 01, 2002 11:01 am

I am currently writing a zone, in fact, it is written, wholely, in TE.

It very much sucked henious ass to do this, as it is something like 180 rooms. It took me quite a few hours of work to do this, how many exactly I am not sure.

TE crashes alot, and you lose work. As a result I save every other time I change anything in TE.

Whats turning out to be a real pain is that TE isnt very good for the final touches.

Someone make a better TE, for the love of sojourn please someone do it.

-Celara

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Postby Tuga » Mon Aug 05, 2002 1:42 pm

Okie I am doing an AreaMaker GUI in Java since the Elsennas project seemed to slow down to a stop. I got a few things going already but now need the specifics Image

Can someone send me the Area docs plz and a sample of a portion of a zone would be nice Image

Zip it all up and send to vjpsoftware@hotmail.com

Cheerz
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Postby taelin » Mon Aug 05, 2002 5:32 pm

Shev-
What was the fee for the template?
I'm interested in seeing Saevan's program do its thing for us.

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Postby Shevarash » Mon Aug 05, 2002 6:13 pm

Well, I checked out Saeven's editor, and while it is very nice I do not believe it is the solution for Sojourn.



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Postby moritheil » Tue Aug 06, 2002 4:21 am

Interesting.

I'm still not certain I'm comfortable with the zone creation tools being in so many hands, and subject to such seemingly arbitrary changes, when I was under the impression it was kept under lock and seal.

But then, all things change.

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Postby Tuga » Tue Aug 06, 2002 3:50 pm

Okie I got my Room Editor now to be editable in colors.

Got 2 text boxes for the room long description, 1 in black like yer zmud or other client and another white as if it was a simple text editor.

As you type on the black box and depending on the color chosen it tranfers the text to the white box and places the &+ color codes the mud uses.

Now if someone plz send me how a room looks like in simple text, it would be much apreciated.

Cheerz
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Postby Jorus » Tue Aug 06, 2002 4:46 pm

Hmm, yeah..

No offense Saeven, but I suggest you find another way to advertise your commercial products than by posting about it on BBS's.

Or at the very least make it very clear what costs are involved with your product, as the fees for SZM were somewhat buried on your site.

Regards,
Jorus
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Postby Galkar » Tue Aug 06, 2002 5:57 pm

I built on a mud for a while and became master builder (I had to approve all the zones), and I've had a lot of experience with OLC. Someone else asked this and I didn't see a response, but what is wrong with OLC?

You have a test mud, set up OLC on that mud the way you want it, make a restricted level for builders so they don't abbuse stuffs you don't want them getting into, and let them go to town. If you don't want everyone knowing the test mud addy, just set up the email registration that was tested out on the main mud. This gives builders the option of ptesting their zones as they build them (huge plus imho), they can get instant help from anyone else on the test mud (be them building or whatever), builders can wander through other builders zones and get ideas, find mistakes, make suggestions, and it's easier for zone approvers to follow the status of the zones being built, making final approval much easier. Builders who don't know of EVERY item on the main mud can check to see if their item has already been made.

We had a coder that helped alter OLC for us, he added new commands, put level limits on others, set it up real nice. Just made building quality zones much faster.

Granted, restricting access to "sensitive" information must be done, but you could setup a "Builder Zone" that is a set of rooms with boards, manuals, etc, and have each new zone being built have an off shooting path to it, then load all builders to the building zone, and take away things like goto, transfer, and teleportation spells.

Anyways, I'm bored and work, sorry Image

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Snurgt
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Postby Snurgt » Sat Sep 28, 2002 1:09 pm

*bump*

Any more news on this?

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