Toril Edit

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
Elseenas
Sojourner
Posts: 755
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Golden, CO US

Toril Edit

Postby Elseenas » Tue Dec 04, 2001 8:39 am

A friend and I were talking about how antiquated and nasty TE was to work with and how it doesn't even work on UN*X and Mac platforms.

In this, pending the Gods' approval, I would like to propose a group of us create a version of TE with the following features:

*Modular Construction (so upgrading is a cinch, a thousand other advantages)
*Built in Python (multiplatform, damned easy to code)
*Open Source (so if we become lax in upgrading it someone else can)

Anyone else interested?



------------------

Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Postby kiryan » Tue Dec 04, 2001 9:59 am

ive been working on a gui editor for toril in java, but I havent been able to work on it for the last month and not for at least another 2 weeks.

That ought to compile under any platform, though some prolly will always prefer a text based editor. Its about 50% usable atm. You can manipulate rooms in a 3d view, but theres no data other than physical associated with the objects atm.
rylan
Sojourner
Posts: 2903
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Hudson, MA

Postby rylan » Tue Dec 04, 2001 1:06 pm

Good ideas. I would love to see the zone editor upgraded with some new features and stuff. Image
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby moritheil » Tue Dec 04, 2001 7:15 pm

Sounds like tinymud over zmud over portal over telnet. Ambitious.
Elseenas
Sojourner
Posts: 755
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Golden, CO US

Postby Elseenas » Wed Dec 05, 2001 5:07 am

I have several reasons for not wanting this done in Java. Nonetheleast of which is that this is exactly the kind of app that Java was not designed for.

It has heavy use of opening windows, file swapping, and speed--while not critical--is a factor. Also, learning Java can be a pain for nonprogrammers.

Hence why I am proposing Python w/ Tkinter as a programming language.




------------------

Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
Snizzle
Sojourner
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 5:01 am
Location: salina, ks usa

Postby Snizzle » Wed Dec 05, 2001 5:25 am

TE is in dire need of a update of some kind. I would mention tho that it does run in Mac and *nix. Mac if running OSX which seems to be a BSD kernel. Just have to be savvy enuff to get a DOSemulater running in *nix. Kind of a waste of effort imho.
Xebes
Sojourner
Posts: 167
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Indiana, USA

Postby Xebes » Wed Dec 05, 2001 5:34 am

Snizzle-

I'm a freebsd user myself, and I haven't yet found a dos-emulator that works with enough speed to keep up with typing stuff into TE.

Word processor it is for me, and I better not typo! ;-P

Elseenas: Python's not a programming language that I'm fluent in (yet), but I'm definitely interested in a project like this. 2 heads are better than one!

And if you have any links to _good_ python documentation/tutorials, I'd definitely like to see those.



------------------
-<(#)>- Xebes makes your heart start to race REAL FAST!
Elseenas
Sojourner
Posts: 755
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Golden, CO US

Postby Elseenas » Wed Dec 05, 2001 8:33 am

Xebes:

Awesome, welcome.

hmmmmmmm. If you know any programming languages python should take about two days Image


python.org has some good referances in their documentation section. The O'Reilley books are (of course) good.

Some ones I've found useful:

http://python.org/doc/current/tut/tut.html
http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/thinkCSpy/

Snizzle:

Tell that to my poor little 300MHz r0 Beige MiniTower. I would *really* rather not run a DOS Emulator to try and run TE, which is buggy anyways.

------------------
Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning

"On this night of Ghosts returning / To the light of bridges burning" -- Trans-Siberian Orchestra
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Postby kiryan » Wed Dec 05, 2001 10:10 am

I was worried about the speed of java code, and while its not stellar, its more than adequate for most people i think. If your a high performance freak your not going to use a fukin gui anyhow youll use toriledit or some wordprocessor.

The big reason i selected java was i need a pet project for my portfolio. the second is that i figured that folks that mud are more likely to use unix os's and other strange things. The third reason is it can be easily made into an applet and you could possibly do zone collaboration over the web. The fourth reason is there are a lot of folks that know or are learning java, and more to come. The fifth reason is that Java is backed by Sun, IE I expect it to be around for quite some time.

But anyways, im not working on it for at least another 2 weeks, and my program is not an open source project atm.
Elseenas
Sojourner
Posts: 755
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Golden, CO US

Postby Elseenas » Wed Dec 05, 2001 12:29 pm

kiryan:

Heh, don't make me open up my can of Computer Language Advocacy on you Image

Seriously though: those are good reasons to design it in the way that you are doing it. I have done several projects like that in the past. It's just not what I am looking for here.

I looked at the specifications for what I wanted and I looked at my options (dismissing most of them, such as C++) and Python was the best for what I am looking for.

Hence, I want this done in Python. I'll be more than happy to explain my decision and the reasons why Python is ideal for this situation, but it is moderately off topic.

There are reasons, good reasons, for keeping source closed.

In this project, however, I want to see it Open Source (probobly Python or GPL) so that I can get more people involved and so that if we should stop supporting it then, some years down the road, someone else will actually have the source code to work with when they try another project like this.

If I get enough interest I'll start writing a design document to be hammered into and critiqued by the victi^H^H^H^H^H volunteers.

------------------
Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning

"On this night of Ghosts returning / To the light of bridges burning" -- Trans-Siberian Orchestra
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Postby kiryan » Wed Dec 05, 2001 4:37 pm

oof, im not telling you how to run your project; its your project. im just saying i already got something in the works. Guess I shouldve just kept my mouth shut and suprised you when its finished. shrug.

on second thought, is this going to happen or is this just an idea of yours. i dont want to waste my time completing an editor only to find it ursuped by your project. please let me know.

[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 12-05-2001).]
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Postby Sarvis » Wed Dec 05, 2001 5:04 pm

I might be able to help out with this. Although I don't know python yet... heh. The real problem is that I might not be able to devote a whole lot of time to such a project while school is in session.

Sarvis

[This message has been edited by Sarvis (edited 12-05-2001).]
Zrax
Sojourner
Posts: 593
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Fairborn, OH, USA
Contact:

Postby Zrax » Wed Dec 05, 2001 5:29 pm

I have never used toril edit but i would assume if its like most other editors I have played with, most of the base work could be done in as a virtual class library in c++ that can be loaded from any environment. I did a few lp mud editors that inherited a few abstract base classes and it really allowed the users alot of flexability with their objects while at the same time gave them the freedom to utilize the simpliciity offered by the editor. In something so basic as this (not to discount its usefulness mind you) any language will really be able to handle the project. I will shoot down java any day in deference to C++ though. Never worked with python personally however. I would be willing to help but wouldnt want any large role, coding all day for work makes coding for recreation a bit tedious at times, but would help in a limited capacity if needed.
Elseenas
Sojourner
Posts: 755
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Golden, CO US

Postby Elseenas » Wed Dec 05, 2001 6:12 pm

Zrax, Sarvis:

Welcome in. I'll take whatever time you can give me.

Python is quick to learn (executable pseudocode) and, at this stage in the game, I need people to critique design docs and make commentary more than write code.

I'm constrained by schoolwork as well so I completely understand Image

That's one reason I want to keep this Open Source, so that having "transient programmers" won't be a problem.

kiryan:

I never thought you were "telling me" how to run this project Image

I do not know if it will happen yet, I know that with a couple people it is entirely possible.

------------------
Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning

"On this night of Ghosts returning / To the light of bridges burning" -- Trans-Siberian Orchestra
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Postby kiryan » Wed Dec 05, 2001 7:16 pm

ok then ill quit my work. more time to play. let me know if you guys quit.
Nalet
Sojourner
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby Nalet » Thu Dec 06, 2001 5:12 am

Is toriledit out there for public use or not? Would be fun to play around with....

Naleth
Elseenas
Sojourner
Posts: 755
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Golden, CO US

Postby Elseenas » Fri Dec 07, 2001 9:38 am

Everyone who is interested send me an email.

llywelyn @mail.com

------------------
Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning

"On this night of Ghosts returning / To the light of bridges burning" -- Trans-Siberian Orchestra
Elseenas
Sojourner
Posts: 755
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Golden, CO US

Postby Elseenas » Sun Dec 09, 2001 1:42 am

Aforementioned friend and I have created a list, send a message:

tzdesigner-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

------------------
Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning

"On this night of Ghosts returning / To the light of bridges burning" -- Trans-Siberian Orchestra
Xyd
Sojourner
Posts: 177
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Naperville, IL US
Contact:

Postby Xyd » Sun Dec 09, 2001 3:20 am

El, count me in. I used to speak Pascal, C and a smidge of Java but never Python -- this is a good reason to learn though. Maybe by the time I finish reading the tutorials you'll have a project put together. :-) Hell, this may even inspire me to play a bit.

One question for the owner(s) of TE: Can we get the source so we can easily translate all the zonefile rules?

.xyd
Xebes
Sojourner
Posts: 167
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Indiana, USA

Postby Xebes » Sun Dec 09, 2001 3:53 am

Another thought would be (after enough code has been written to produce somewhat sensible area-files) to work with us on creating a test suite to insure that what we're making creates zones that the mud isn't going to choke on.

And as it looks like Toriledit most likely isn't under active development, instead of using that as a complete basis for what we're doing, I feel it would be worthwhile to talk to members of the areas staff to get a general feeling of what is/isn't useful, something a zone writer would kill for that TE doesn't have, etc.

Before we start writing code, it's probably going to be a good idea to decide just what we want this program to do? :-)

------------------
-<(#)>- Xebes makes your heart start to race REAL FAST!
Elseenas
Sojourner
Posts: 755
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Golden, CO US

Postby Elseenas » Sun Dec 09, 2001 5:06 am

I'm trying with Cyric now Image

I'm going to write up the Design Doc and then have ya'll rip to shreds so we'll have something to work with as to exactly what it does Image


------------------
Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning

"On this night of Ghosts returning / To the light of bridges burning" -- Trans-Siberian Orchestra
Elseenas
Sojourner
Posts: 755
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Golden, CO US

Postby Elseenas » Sun Dec 09, 2001 5:07 am

Xebes and Xyd, are you both on the mailing list?

------------------
Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning

"On this night of Ghosts returning / To the light of bridges burning" -- Trans-Siberian Orchestra
Xebes
Sojourner
Posts: 167
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Indiana, USA

Postby Xebes » Sun Dec 09, 2001 5:43 am

Yep.

------------------
-<(#)>- Xebes makes your heart start to race REAL FAST!
Grungar
Sojourner
Posts: 967
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Somewhere on the east coast, usually.
Contact:

Postby Grungar » Sun Dec 09, 2001 6:52 am

I'm good at breaking stuff and I've played around with TE a bit... Been trying to write a zone for the past three incarnations of this wonderful MUD, yet each time, school gets in the way. Damn school. Still trying to write it, progressing slowly... I've been stuck at 50 rooms for the past two months. I can't code or anything, but if you need someone to break things, holler =D

- Grungar "Well, looks like I broke chemistry again" Forgefire
Elseenas
Sojourner
Posts: 755
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Golden, CO US

Postby Elseenas » Sun Dec 09, 2001 7:26 am

Grungar:

Hell yes I need someone who does nothing but attempts to break it! Image

Join the mailing list!

------------------
Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning

"On this night of Ghosts returning / To the light of bridges burning" -- Trans-Siberian Orchestra
Gindipple
Sojourner
Posts: 676
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: O' Fallon, MO. USA
Contact:

Postby Gindipple » Sun Dec 09, 2001 9:10 am

Exactly where are you planing to use Python in this?
As the main language of the program or as the scripting language that feeds the mud?

Because I'm just not so sure C isn't the better tool for the main part.
As for scripting tools, I'd think custom might work better in a mud.

What is wrong with existing TE first?

Is it just the interface?
Or is it as you said portability?
C is quite portable and fits very nicely with a mud that is written in C.

Just kinda curious what directions you're heading in.
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby moritheil » Sun Dec 09, 2001 9:13 am

TE port I am not qualified to speak much on, but insofar as interface a tad bit more flexibility would be nice.

Also I run win98 *shudder* and my TE corrupts my zones a lot.
Elseenas
Sojourner
Posts: 755
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Golden, CO US

Postby Elseenas » Sun Dec 09, 2001 9:33 am

Gindipple:

This isn't a MUD, it is an editor for a MUD.
I do not need the flexiability of C and I certainly don't needs its power for a project of this magnitude.

Also the files for the zones are not C-code or C-- or anything strange like that, they are a different format altogether. I don't quite understand how what the MUD is written in should affect how the editor works?

However, before I rant and rave on Python vs C for this project, have you ever used TE or programed in Python?

(I will also say, however, that my experience with C/C++ on six platforms and as a sysadmin indicates that it is anything BUT portable, but I digress).

Problems with TE:
1) The interface is poor to say the least.
2) It is DOS based and only runs under DOS.
3) The code is dead, it will never be updated again.
4) The files require hand-tweaking before submittal and do not support any of the new additions.
5) TE is buggy and has a tendancy to crash.
6) Saving with TE is... interesting.
7) vnums cannot be changed after they are set and the automation of vnum assignment leaves much to be desired.
and the list goes on and on...

------------------
Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning

"On this night of Ghosts returning / To the light of bridges burning" -- Trans-Siberian Orchestra

[This message has been edited by Elseenas (edited 12-09-2001).]
Xyd
Sojourner
Posts: 177
Joined: Thu Apr 26, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Naperville, IL US
Contact:

Postby Xyd » Sun Dec 09, 2001 2:59 pm

Umm... which mailing list? For this bbs? If so, "yes" as of now.

Problems with TE cont'd:
8) Two words: zone corruption.

Also, I've been reading up on Python. Cool language but it's interpreted. I'll keep digging but interpreted languages give me speed concerns...

.xyd
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Postby Sarvis » Sun Dec 09, 2001 5:52 pm

Elseenas, if you really have that much trouble porting C code you might be doing something wrong. I had a mudlib I was working on last year compiling and running easily on both my windows machine at home and my solaris account at school. Image The trick is to be careful and use only stuff that exists on all C++ compilers, which makes GUI's pretty much impossible to make portable. Image Or is that what you meant?

Python is interpreted? Not a big fan of that... does it support any kind of GUI programming? *shrug*

Personally, I'm thinking we should read the design so that we know how this thing will work, then pick a language for it. Personally I don't think Java's a bad choice really, even though I'm not a huge fan of java... heh.

Xyd, not a mailing list for this BBS, there's a yahoo group for this. Elseenas gave the email addy to join earlier: tzdesigner-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Elseenas
Sojourner
Posts: 755
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Golden, CO US

Postby Elseenas » Sun Dec 09, 2001 8:51 pm

Xyd:

Thats why I like Python. If we find part of it is too slow we CAN write it in C and it will integrate cleanly Image

Sarvis:
I write ANSI C/C++. The C/C++ isn't the problem, its the APIs, particularly when we start talking GUI programming. Even getting colored text on two different platforms can be tricky.

The rest of it can be a minor nuisance as well, though it is not terribly difficult to get around that it still requires checking it and using conditional compiling for an increasing number of platforms.

The other week I was helping a grad student who specializes in Operating Systems Design port a login program from AIX to RedHat Linux. It wasn't difficult, but I wouldn't call it trivial.

Everyone:
Some information on Python:
0) It is compilable into Bytecode

1) The various parts can be written in ANSI C and then integrated seemlessly.

2) It is damned easy to code and debug.

3) It comes with automatic support for a GUI system (Tkinter).

4) It runs prettymuch the same on every platform that supports it with little or no modifications.

5) There is a very short development cycle.

6) It is heavily Object Oriented but doesn't require that you be.

7) It is faster than most other scripting languages, particularly for more generic tasks.

8) It was designed w/ large projects in mind, as opposed to Java which was designed with small projects in mind.

9) It is qualified as "executable pseudocode": I can hand 90% of it to a non-programmer and they can understand it.

------------------
Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning

"On this night of Ghosts returning / To the light of bridges burning" -- Trans-Siberian Orchestra
Elseenas
Sojourner
Posts: 755
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Golden, CO US

Postby Elseenas » Sun Dec 09, 2001 9:20 pm

Also: from my experience with Java I learned the lesson DO NOT USE SWING.

Tkinter isn't nearly as nasty as Swing is in terms of speed or compatiability.

------------------
Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning

"On this night of Ghosts returning / To the light of bridges burning" -- Trans-Siberian Orchestra
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Postby kiryan » Mon Dec 10, 2001 2:23 am

agree overall about java. im not so fond of it, events and threading sucks (though not as bad as on palm) but it ports to the web in a jiffy and a lot of the cool "tools" you might want to use have been built.

Dunno about tkinter, I tend to stick with what the big dogs are pushing even if its not half as good.

[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 12-09-2001).]
Cyric
FORGER AREAS
Posts: 487
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Bone Castle, City of Strife

Postby Cyric » Mon Dec 10, 2001 2:37 am

Well well well, look what's sprung up.

TE was a creation of Ilsensine's and it was meant to replace the older DE which was written for Duris...as Duris progressed, so did the versions of DE, and thus it didn't work out for us anymore.

TE is sorta nice, BUT it crashes like crazy, isn't updated, and lacks the flexibility we'd all like to see.

Over the years I've had multiple zone writers take a stab at updating, revamping, or recreating TE, but nothing's ever come of it...if you guys want to do it, go nuts...I'm happy to help in any way that I can. =] Feel free to email me at roysoto@yahoo.com.

R
Elseenas
Sojourner
Posts: 755
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Golden, CO US

Postby Elseenas » Mon Dec 10, 2001 11:06 am

I have begun working on DesignDocument 1.0d1.

Later versions will probobly be written in LaTeX, but I don't have my software for writing that booted up on this machine, so the current version is in xhtml.



------------------
Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning

"On this night of Ghosts returning / To the light of bridges burning" -- Trans-Siberian Orchestra
Gindipple
Sojourner
Posts: 676
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: O' Fallon, MO. USA
Contact:

Postby Gindipple » Mon Dec 10, 2001 4:38 pm

C is definately portable if you stick to ANSI.
I'll agree though when it comes to the GUI APIs you might find some troubles, but that's with almost any language.
Out of curiosity what is wrong with just using OLC?
Not trying to say it's a bad idea to re-do TE, just trying to understand the actual problems with it.
Kinda a don't fix what ain't broke thing.
Yes I played with it for 5 min. and yes I can see that the first problem would arise if you don't use windows.
Also curious what is Python written in that makes it so portable for GUI stuff?


More thoughts added:
Ok somewhat convinced in my mind that something like Python or Java is needed for front end, but I do think C is needed for the core and the main reason is the same reason you would choose to use Python for GUI.
There is no need to re-write something that has already been written.
Hence the mud is written in C and you'll need many of the data structures from it. Those should be plenty portable.
As to how to interface Python to core C code I have no idea if it's doable.


[This message has been edited by Gindipple (edited 12-10-2001).]
Elseenas
Sojourner
Posts: 755
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Golden, CO US

Postby Elseenas » Mon Dec 10, 2001 9:09 pm

Gindipple:

Python is written in C :-) It is designed to interface very cleanly with C code so long as that code was written using Python libraries.

See http://python.org/doc/current/api/api.html for details.

The differance in terms of multiplatform issues is twofold:
1) Python has a native interpreter on each platform.

2) Python's GUI, Tkinter, is based on Tcl/Tk.


As to writing it in C because we need the same data structures:

We actually need virtually none of the same data structures. Our data structures don't even need to be similar and, in fact, need to be different in several key ways (write routines and that these need to be OO to fit the modular requirement).

To top it off, we don't have access to the MUD's code. So even if we were using the MUD's data structures we would have to clean room them anyways.


------------------
Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning

"On this night of Ghosts returning / To the light of bridges burning" -- Trans-Siberian Orchestra
Ilneval
Sojourner
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Chicago, IL

Postby Ilneval » Mon Dec 10, 2001 9:35 pm

I tried getting the original source from Ilsie a while back, but never managed to really get ahold of it. Granted, I'm not involved in the current re-vamp project, but my vote would go to C as a language (for portability), but that's just because I've never used python. A lot of us zone-types develop on Windoze boxes, so something that runs there is key.

Personally, the biggest problem I have with the current TE (despite it's many quirks) is the fact that it doesn't support half of the tags/fields that the MUD now does. There's been a TON of functionality added to Sojourn since it was written, and all of the preset flag values in TE are now changed, superceded, or simply aren't in there.

Many thanks if you manage to get an updated version of the sucker up and running. Would really make life easier.

Also (wish list, bigtime)...a GUI front end and mapper utility that takes door directions from rooms and graphically lays our your zone for you... Image

Good luck!
Gindipple
Sojourner
Posts: 676
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: O' Fallon, MO. USA
Contact:

Postby Gindipple » Mon Dec 10, 2001 9:57 pm

Just playing with concepts, but how hard would it be to read in a graphical layout and have it generate a zone to be edited.
Example follows:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">code:</font><HR><pre>
LEVEL 1
- - - -
| |-| |-| |-| |
- - - -
| | |
- - - - - -
| |-| | | |-| |-| |-| |-
- - - - - -
| | |
- - - -
| |-| |-| |-| |
- - - -

LEVEL 2
- - - -
| |-| |-| |-| |
- - - -
| | |
- - -
| |-| | | |
- - -
| | |
- - - -
| |-| |-| |-| |
- - - -
</pre><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You might have to get real spanky with a GUI to handle ups and downs, but even if ya had to do that manually it would seem neat to get a base file generadted in a jip.
Elseenas
Sojourner
Posts: 755
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Golden, CO US

Postby Elseenas » Tue Dec 11, 2001 12:17 am

Ilneval:

Heh, most people use Windows boxes, but I don't, so I need this to be cross platform Image

It should run on Windows, but it also MUST run on Linux and preferably on MacOS 9.2 and MacOS X 10.1.

Gindipple:
I would like it to work something as follows (this will be in the design document in much more detail, but this is my initial "vision" for how this will work).

You open (^o) a zone. A text terminal, in the background, goes to the initial room. The world file loads and a screen pops up with a graphical layout similar to the one in ZMud's mapper. Directional arrows show where each room connects to.

I can then do any number of things, if I double click on a room an edit screen for that room should be brought up that includes a list of whatever should be loaded in that room. I can then open one of the items on that list easily for editing or click on another list and press "insert" to put one in the room.
Meanwhile, for purists, the terminal can do everything you can do through a GUI, just not as efficiently. Including things like "mod +infravision mob 2222" or somesuch.

Thats my current vision, it is prone to be updated as feedback comes in Image

------------------
Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning

"On this night of Ghosts returning / To the light of bridges burning" -- Trans-Siberian Orchestra
Elseenas
Sojourner
Posts: 755
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Golden, CO US

Postby Elseenas » Tue Dec 11, 2001 12:27 am

Ah, wait, I see what you are saying.

Hrm.

Not sure.

------------------
Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning

"On this night of Ghosts returning / To the light of bridges burning" -- Trans-Siberian Orchestra
Xebes
Sojourner
Posts: 167
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Indiana, USA

Postby Xebes » Tue Dec 11, 2001 2:22 am

One definite argument for the use of python in this case:

It reads very easily and as Elseenas mentioned, has a short development cycle.

My vision of what we're looking at here is to create something _quickly_ in python, then gradually replace parts of it in C.

What would be nice is if we modualize this to the point of the GUI being optional Image

I like tkinter for a gui, but sometimes a text interface is mucho nice.

I'll probably edit this later, I'm way tired and making not much sense?


------------------
-<(#)>- Xebes makes your heart start to race REAL FAST!
Nalet
Sojourner
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby Nalet » Tue Dec 11, 2001 3:45 am

I would definately like to get in on this as a tester. I probably could help out with programming as well but time right now isn't probably the best for me to jump in on that (although I'm not 100% on how to join the list...just send an email to that addy?).

I used TE quite a bit a few years ago....

I would definately like an upgrade in the UI. Having a map that showed the layout nicely. Being able to select a room on that map and have it load into the editor.

Being able to create a general layout from the map instead of in the editor going room by room would be nice.

Being able to walk through it as if on the mud is a definate must have (which TE already had)

I'll think of more later but I'm playing right now so....until then Image

Naleth
Azenilsee
Sojourner
Posts: 199
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Contact:

Postby Azenilsee » Tue Dec 11, 2001 7:05 am

Don't know if anyone knows about CoffeeMUD, but the editor is pretty cool. It uses Java, and looks very modular. Ask the author for permission to use the source Image. Here's the homepage:

http://www.zimmers.net/home/mud.html

The editor is called MudGrinder. Check out the screenshots.

[This message has been edited by Azenilsee (edited 12-11-2001).]
Gindipple
Sojourner
Posts: 676
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: O' Fallon, MO. USA
Contact:

Postby Gindipple » Tue Dec 11, 2001 8:25 am

I'll probably show my ignorance with this question, but with Java don't you kinda get the source with it?
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Postby Sarvis » Tue Dec 11, 2001 8:42 am

err... no. You get classfiles usually, which are compiled bytecodes. Those bytecodes are then interpreted by the JVM, or compiled into binary by a just-in-time compiler or something.
Elseenas
Sojourner
Posts: 755
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Golden, CO US

Postby Elseenas » Tue Dec 11, 2001 6:03 pm

Nalet:

Yep, send a "subscribe" message to the address.

------------------
Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning

"On this night of Ghosts returning / To the light of bridges burning" -- Trans-Siberian Orchestra
Elseenas
Sojourner
Posts: 755
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Golden, CO US

Postby Elseenas » Tue Dec 11, 2001 6:28 pm

Xebes:

Thats what I'm thinking and one of the reasons I'm advocating Python.

We get this done *fast* in Python so that people will have something to use, then we can get the critical components done in C for speed.

------------------
Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning

"On this night of Ghosts returning / To the light of bridges burning" -- Trans-Siberian Orchestra
Elseenas
Sojourner
Posts: 755
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Golden, CO US

Postby Elseenas » Tue Dec 11, 2001 8:00 pm

One more post.

Aforementioned friend of mine has a sourceforge account (I don't, need to rememdy that situation...) and has managed to set up some space for us.

tzdesigner.sourceforge.net

Have fun ladies Image

------------------
Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
Elseenas
Sojourner
Posts: 755
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Golden, CO US

Postby Elseenas » Wed Dec 12, 2001 9:58 pm

Testers et al.

Anyone who wants in on this project at some point sign up on the mailing list. You can find a link to the subscription email address at:

http://tzdesigner.sourceforge.net

------------------
Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning

Return to “S3 General Discussion Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests