Outflank

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
Pril
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Outflank

Postby Pril » Tue Sep 17, 2002 1:49 am

Hey, any reason that dire's get outflank and paladins don't (since paladins are supposed to be masters of mounted combat and all)?

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Calinth
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Postby Calinth » Tue Sep 17, 2002 1:53 am

Well, I think an argument can be made for paladins not wanting to do something dishonorable like that, as it isn't a straight face to face attack. *shrug* That's definitely debatable, but a reasonable guess anyway. Anti-paladins on the other hand I have a harder time figuring out a reason to argue.


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teflor the ranger
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Sep 17, 2002 2:04 am

Why do Rangers have all these cool features when I roll the characters, then have them all taken away by the time I get high enough level to use them?

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Postby Wuva » Tue Sep 17, 2002 2:10 am

I give it a thumbs up...and waits for a response to why Pali's dont have it. Specially Pril..I mean doesnt all his deaths account for something!! Save the horse atleast:P

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Postby Ragorn » Tue Sep 17, 2002 2:30 am

Just because a skill makes sense logically or in real life doesn't necessarily mean it has to be implemented in the game. Dire Raiders need unique skills, and they have them... it's ok if a Dire Raider can do something on a wolf that a Paladin can't do on a horse, for whatever reason.

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kiryan
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Postby kiryan » Tue Sep 17, 2002 7:07 am

agree ragorn.

paladins are masters of defensive mounted combat. shev's dire raiders add a new dimension to mounted combat which is offensive mounted combat.

I think he was a bit misleading when he said he was bringing the mounted combat module to the evil races. technically I suppose it was accurate, but I don't really think you can compare paladin and dire raider mounted combat except in some very very basic functionality. Its an apples and oranges comparison.

From a damage perspective who cares about outflank, archery is the end all be all of melee damage as far as I can tell (level 46 dire).

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moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Tue Sep 17, 2002 8:03 pm

Nevertheless, palis still hit their opponents Image

If you recall the tanking debate, you can't tank unless you represent a threat. And if paladins were nothing but defensive, will you be upping their flankblock and removing charge? That's absurd. It's doubly absurd when considering antis.

I still don't see why a horse can't outflank at all; that's a classic cavalry maneuver isn't it?

Please don't argue that palis will be overpowered, either. Since warriors tank better in 99% of real zones, a pali's job then becomes damage dealing and spare rescue. All available data I've seen or heard tells me that Dires are twice the ownage that palis are, in a package with infra. Mind you, I could be lied to, but since I'm hearing that from everyone I don't doubt there's some kernel of truth to it.

It would make sense to me if dires were, say, better at flanking due to their nature and training, but to have NO flanking ability whatsoever in paladins or antis is imho kind of inconsistent.

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Galkar
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Postby Galkar » Tue Sep 17, 2002 9:57 pm

Outflank is a classic calvary maneuver. And personally (just mho) I think Paladins would definitely use it in combat. I believe that the honor in paladins lies in starting a battle facing the enemy and not backstabbing such as a rogue would do. Outflanking someone you are already fighting is not dishonorable in that sense. Outflank isn't really a "rogue" like sneak attack. It's a standard mounted battle manuever to wheel your mount around the side of someone and score a hit to the side or back.

I agree with Rags that some classes may get a skill that might better suit other classes, but in this case I think paladins should get outflank.

Like mori said though, wolves are quicker, and since dires might not tank as much, they should more than likely be better at it than Paladins.


One other issue..... how about making charge stun last just a tad longer than 2 seconds? Image Thanks!

Again, just my opinion, no flaming intended Image

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kiryan
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Postby kiryan » Wed Sep 18, 2002 2:12 am

All available data I've seen or heard tells me that Dires are twice the ownage that palis are, in a package with infra. Mind you, I could be lied to, but since I'm hearing that from everyone I don't doubt there's some kernel of truth to it.

twice the ownage paladins are... 1/4th the tanking ability at high level might be an overstatement...it could be around 1/10th. charge stuns, dire raiders get spells that stun (but cant do damage while casting them). outflank does more damage than charge(?) but archery outdoes both of them by a huge margin.

dire raiders bring tag ability and barkskin to a group... i don't think dire raiders will get grouped over a rogue unless we doing SF. I have no idea where you are getting your data mori, archery is fun, the wolves, howl, and outflank are neat, but dire raiders are not much more than exp machines since evils rely on invokers and lichs for damage.


oh and getting back to the original subject matter... i do think that calvary should be able to "outflank." I think mounted defensive combat is a combination of "outflanking" and flankblocking.

But no big deal, if giving anti/pal outflank doesn't mess with class damage balance then give it to them. If it would be out of balance for them to gain this extra damage, perhaps shev should just rename the skill to "mounted circle" or something equally as stupid to erase this entire debate?

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[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 09-17-2002).]
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Wed Oct 02, 2002 3:20 pm

Since a whole bunch of people have quested the 'ress thread' ability...

would an imm mind commenting?

Kiryan, I referred in my post to how warriors tank far better than pal/antipal in 99% of zones now, and thus, their primary role in a group is damage. I think I can safely say that dires far outshine them, and while I agree that dires should do more damage, the gap seems to be vast and a little excessive. Either way, it wouldn't hurt to give outflank to pals/antis and would lend more consistency to the system.

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Uwuw
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Postby Uwuw » Wed Oct 02, 2002 3:25 pm

Couple things on Dire Raiders.

First off... and I know it is being looked at by the Gods.. is we don't get forage, but in the help dire_raider, it hints that we should have it.

Second... outflank seems to be broken and or buggy.

I hit with outflank, even if outflank fails... essentially giving me an extra attack.

Strafe doesn't seem to do anything at all.

Damage exp for Archery, at least for Dire Raiders seems to be excessivly high... I out exp half my group if i can hit the mob with a bow and arrow.

Howl doesn't really seem to do anything, except occasionally "freeze in their tracks" but unlike stun or anything, does nothing.

As to why paladins don't get outflank.... help outflank describes it as a sneaky action... don't see Paladins doing sneaky attacks, also Paladins get Charge.. and a better Flankblock.

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Postby Guest » Wed Oct 02, 2002 4:30 pm

Outflank is a special combat manuever that is performed by a very fast mount, a.k.a a wolf, that allows a dire raider to skirt around a enemy.

Paladins mount very powerful strong, but not extremely fast horses called chargers. They are called chargers, because they get to the battle and then stop.


Beyond the logical reason, mainly because not every class is equal, they all have thier differences, and they all have their merits and flaws. The same reason, why dires WONT get charge, is the same reason why pali/antis WONT get outflank. Their mounts aren't suited for it, PERIOD.

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moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Wed Oct 02, 2002 7:41 pm

ah, I was (erroneously) told that dires had gotten charge.

Thanks for clearing that up, guys!

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Dlur
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Postby Dlur » Wed Oct 02, 2002 8:55 pm

What if a anti-paladin is walking along and finds a dire wolf standing there in the middle of the road. He tries to mount it, and can. Since the anti-paladin is then riding a small, fast, quick mount wouldn't they then be able to outflank? What if a dire raider is mounted on a horse they bought from Jenna's stable, would they be able to outflank then?

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Ruld Ragingbear
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Postby Guest » Thu Oct 03, 2002 12:08 am

Dire raiders can ONLY mount wolves. Paladins wouldn't lower themselves to mounting a wolf, and humans are typically (paladins warrior type) nearly a foot taller and an extra 50-100 lbs heavier. So no, the wolf could not manuever with the same grace. Beyond that, the wolves that dires used are highly trained to do specifically what dire raiders do.

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Treladian
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Postby Treladian » Thu Oct 03, 2002 5:19 am

"What if a anti-paladin is walking along and finds a dire wolf standing there in the middle of the road. He tries to mount it, and can. Since the anti-paladin is then riding a small, fast, quick mount wouldn't they then be able to outflank? What if a dire raider is mounted on a horse they bought from Jenna's stable, would they be able to outflank then?"

There's also the matter of training involved. Dire raiders resemble light cavalry: Fast maneuverable mounts and tactics suited for scouting, skirmishing, and flanking since they would wind up as spear-ka-bobs if they simply charged head on. Paladins and anti-paladins are trained more along the lines of heavy cavalry: They might be able to flank an enemy position, but once they do that they're going to charge straight into it with a lance or other weapon. If they can't get to a flank, they can still charge straight in with a weapon and survive. It's not a necessary tactic for them and hard to pull off with a heavy war horse anyway. To put it another way, putting a mongol onto a heavy war horse wouldn't make him fight like a European knight and vice versa.

"Paladins wouldn't lower themselves to mounting a wolf"

I'd highly debate this. That's like saying a paladin would view riding a camel as demeaning. Dire wolves are more suited to certain environments, namely forested and arctic ones, than a horse would be. Worgs would be another matter entirely and are what orcs and other goblinoids normally ride . . .

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Postby kiryan » Thu Oct 03, 2002 6:55 am

I dont get it mori.

warrior tank > paladin tank
paladin tank > dire raider tank
dire archery > paladin damage
dire melee >?< paladin damage
rogue melee > paladin & dire melee

whats your point? or are you trying to make the case that paladins are not primarily defensive and are actually primarily an offensive class?

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