Now I truly get scared...

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Jegzed
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Now I truly get scared...

Postby Jegzed » Wed Oct 02, 2002 10:03 pm

I'm a guy who've lived in the US, and really like the country and its ideals.. but I was reading Newsweek earlier this week, and read something that truly scared the shit out of me.


23% of all adult americans are illiterate and can't read a regular newspaper.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/811239.asp


The consequences scare the shit out of me. This is a sizable portion of people who's votes affect the most powerful country in the world, and they can't even read enough to get their own opinion.

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Tilandal
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Postby Tilandal » Wed Oct 02, 2002 10:21 pm

That scares you? Well more the 50% of americans dont know how long it takes the earth to go around the sun.

Ponder that for a second.

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Postby Dulzuth » Wed Oct 02, 2002 10:25 pm

Lol yeah I believe it, they're probably too busy robbing liquor stores, doing crack, and killing people to even care. Most of em can't even speak it it very well and it's the only language they know! The US also has a long drawn out education system that does squat.

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Postby Gormal » Wed Oct 02, 2002 10:39 pm

23% of adult americans....you are forgetting who they are probably calling americans. We have a huge inpouring of people who cannot speak this language. Mostly from mexico and other hispanic countries south of the border but many from asian countries as well.

I grew up in an area where the Mexican population was very high, and most of the couldnt speak English. So is this startling? Nope. That kind of statistic is obviously flawed

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Postby Malacar » Wed Oct 02, 2002 10:43 pm

*nods*

Our education system is lacking though, will agree with that.

We need to pay our teachers more, so we can have civil and educated people. :P

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Postby rylan » Wed Oct 02, 2002 10:54 pm

lol malacar
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Postby moritheil » Wed Oct 02, 2002 11:15 pm

fully 50% of americans are sub-average.

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Postby Shevarash » Wed Oct 02, 2002 11:32 pm

Don't worry Jegzed, it's not like anybody votes here anyways. Image

http://www.prcdc.org/summaries/voting/voting.html

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Postby Ragorn » Wed Oct 02, 2002 11:45 pm

Working tech support for a tv company, I can tell you that you'd be shocked how many calls I get from hispanic children 8-12 who call for tech help because their parents don't understand enough English to read the instruction manual or speak to me themselves.

So when I hear that 23% of my country is "illiterate", I have to ask you: Literate in English, or literate? Find out what percentage of that number is comprised of immigrants who don't assimilate into our culture, and then I'll decide whether to be shocked or not.

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Postby Guest » Thu Oct 03, 2002 12:55 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tilandal:
<B>That scares you? Well more the 50% of americans dont know how long it takes the earth to go around the sun.

Ponder that for a second.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The earth goes around the sun?
No way! I see the sun revolve around us each day.
You so silly Image


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Xisiqomelir
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Thu Oct 03, 2002 1:31 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
<B>fully 50% of americans are sub-average.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sub-MEDIAN, I think you mean.


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Postby Xisiqomelir » Thu Oct 03, 2002 1:35 am

Woop, sorry, that's wrong too. And me so good at prob/stat just 2 years ago *sigh*


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Postby Kuurg » Fri Oct 04, 2002 6:08 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jegzed:
<B>
The consequences scare the shit out of me. This is a sizable portion of people who's votes affect the most powerful country in the world, and they can't even read enough to get their own opinion.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank goodness we're a democratic REPUBLIC. I'm quite certain every member of the electoral college can read newsweek.

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·•Kuurg•·

[This message has been edited by Kuurg (edited 10-04-2002).]
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Postby Gort » Fri Oct 04, 2002 6:29 pm

Bleh!

The electoral college is so outdated its not even funny. It was put in place when it took 3 days to ride 60 miles. It was the only way we could get everyone to vote in outlying regions and still feel their opinion meant something.

They don't even have to vote for who their "constituents" voted for, but can vote their conscience. They're also bartered regularly.

IMHO, our system (both politically and educationally) is flawed in a big way. Is it better than much of what's out there? Yes.

Is it the best? possibly

What can we do to make them better?

CARE, ACT, Be Informed, Vote with the ballot, and the pocketbook.

The sad reality of it, big business really calls most of the shots here, if we want to make a difference, this society of consumers must be pickier in what we buy, and from whom. Let the businesses know both in writing, and on their bottom lines when they are helping damage our country.

Last but not least, screw the oil companies, they're holding us down, and holding us back from a cleaner, better future.


IMHO


Toplack

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Postby Kuurg » Fri Oct 04, 2002 7:04 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gort:
<B>Bleh!

The electoral college is so outdated its not even funny.

Toplack

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey! we're not discussing the merit of an electoral college!

but you know, if popular vote decided who was president, the cowboy would still be in Texas. Gore/Lieberman had about half a million votes more than Bush/Cheney. It sure is depressing have an 'average' man for president who regularly and creatively assaults the english language.



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Postby Caedym » Fri Oct 04, 2002 7:09 pm

Yeah. The U.S. sucks.


Booooo! What a horrible education system!

Booooo! All that crime!

Booooo! All that other BAD stuff too!

Booooo! Booooo! Booooo!

(Looks at the rest of the world)

Sure wouldn't wanna live anywhere else tho. Image


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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Oct 04, 2002 8:17 pm

What scares me is when people even with a high level of intelligence, a decent education, and common sense still take statistics for their face value. Any point can be proven using the right statistics taken from the right groups. Governments skew their statistics for the good or ill, depending on the issues at stake, and journalists have been known to do the same. Sometimes it's easy to disbelieve the numbers, and sometimes...

Maybe sometimes the numbers push one of our buttons and reinforce something we want to believe.
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Postby Yayaril » Fri Oct 04, 2002 8:40 pm

Jegzed is getting scared from a Newsweek. Some advice, Jegzed- stay away from horror novels!

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-Yayaril
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Postby moritheil » Fri Oct 04, 2002 8:59 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Xisiqomelir:
<B> Sub-MEDIAN, I think you mean.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, probaby more than 50% are sub mean as well... after all most of the wealth is held by a small portion of the people.

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Postby Dulzuth » Fri Oct 04, 2002 11:17 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kuurg:
<B>
but you know, if popular vote decided who was president, the cowboy would still be in Texas. Gore/Lieberman had about half a million votes more than Bush/Cheney. It sure is depressing have an 'average' man for president who regularly and creatively assaults the english language.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, it is a shame isn't it? If the popular vote did then we would be a democracy. (For those ignorant of the fact, we were formed a Republic after the ancient Roman government, and we still are) Though I have to say there's really nothing wrong with Bush, between him and Gore it's a hard choice lol... Remember, Gore invented the Internet! *roll*

And about insulting the English language? I think everybody in this country does it to some extent, but because of how strong the Texan accent is, I guess that makes someone who has it, an idiot. But that's like saying, anybody with a New York accent and who uses New York slang has to be an uneducated idiot.

Just my 2¢, don't feel offended as talking about Politics seems to do that, this is just what the other side has to say I guess...

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Postby Salen » Fri Oct 04, 2002 11:29 pm

Lets actually READ the illiteracy story, shall we?


Functional illiteracy relates to the inability of an individual to use reading, writing and computational skills in everyday life.

So the comparison is not can you read or not, it is can you read well enough to get by. After this definition is given, in order to compare the rates of Croatia and Vietnam, it is conveniently dropped. Link this to

More poignant is that, unlike in the developing world, where illiteracy is predominantly a rural problem, in the United States it occurs overwhelmingly in the inner cities, with a heavy concentration among the poor and those dependent on welfare.

Which illiteracy? General or functional? I seriously doubt that developing nations' rural have a problem at all with FUNTIONAL, as that would require a good deal of written material. By leaving out the word, the writer is making a grand attempt at confusing the subjects. I don't think it would surprise very many people to find out most Vietnamese have little day to day problems caused by a lack of reading skills.


seven out of 10 adult prisoners have low literacy levels, and the current prison population of 2 million represents a dramatic concentration of illiterate Americans.

What does low mean? Is low 8th grade, 6th grade 4th grade? Also, notice the lack of the FUNCTIONALLY qualifier for illiterate again.

Does the story mention in it anywhere how the 23% stat was arrived at?


Let's keep going;

you need ninth-grade comprehension to understand the instructions for an antidote on an ordinary can of cockroach poison in your kitchen, 10th grade to follow a federal income-tax return, 12th-grade competence to read a life-insurance form.

Where did these comprehension levels come from? While not a reading specialist, I am a teacher, I do deal with a number of standardized tests, and in no way are any of those levels right.

While I do think that illiteracy (both functional and general) is a problem, I find it sad that periodicals go out of their way to obscure the facts to sell issues.

Jegzed is a prime example

23% of all adult americans are illiterate and can't read a regular newspaper.

Did you stop to think that a newspaper is 6th grade reading, and aprroximately 10% of the US popualtion is under that grade level?

The story doesn't bother telling how it determined that 44 million people couldn't do these things, but I'm willing to venture a guess that it didn't check them all, and furthermore, I would venture to guess that thier 'study' did not include a large sample group. Does that mean 44 million people over the age of 18? 16? 12? or just people?

Yes it says Adult, but lets do the math 23% (nearly 1/4) of X = 44 million, so..

44mil x4 = 176 mil people.

With approx 450 mil people in the US (probably higher now. It has been a few years), that means over 1/2 (58% ) of the entire population is not adult.

Take a walk down the street. If these stats are right, every other person you see is 'not adult'.

Perhaps I should write a story for Newsweek. I could advertise it with...

23% of Reporters are Statistically Illiterate.


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Postby kiryan » Sun Oct 06, 2002 10:28 am

you know its always funny to look at this stuff. i live in Japan and lots of people here laugh at Americans and calls them children, stupid, ect... Its pretty easy to just look them back in the face and go, who is #1?

They have their excuses perhaps valid ones, but heres the thing live in reality folks. Talk all the shit you want, but at the end of the day the US is still #1 for some reason. We may take unilateral action, we may go against the prime international opinion, however a lot of the nay saying is strictly posturing and give/take (our money i mean "aid", your support).

so laugh all you want, make fun of illiteracy rates, people always gonna hate on you for being perceived ahead of them meanwhile our illiterate asses be eating the pie. maybe instead of sitting around and making fun of illiteracy rates yall could get off your ass and do some real work?

its amazing that the newspaper (at 9th grade level) is harder to comprehend than business english (8th grade).

and the whole world is prolly fucked because if you think the US's illiteracy rate is atrocious, you should check out the rates for countries like Japan and China who often times can't even properly recognize or pronounce characters in their language over the 9th grade level. At least illiterate American's can look up words in a dictionary. How would you like to try and look up "Ž„"
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Postby Corth » Sun Oct 06, 2002 4:42 pm

Salen,

The latest figure on the population of the US is 278 million. Since its based on the census, which includes illegals, it should be fairly accurate. Even if its skewed to an extent, I doubt that it happened to miss almost 200 million people. The number you listed is way off.


Corth

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Postby Salen » Sun Oct 06, 2002 5:36 pm

Doh Corth is right. Everything I find estimates right at 300mil.

With that adjustment it flips the equation
44x4 = 176 /300 = 58% adults
so 42% of the US population is !adult by these stats.



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Postby Elseenas » Mon Oct 07, 2002 9:41 pm

Salen:

1) Define large sample size. For this kind of study, I know what that means--do you?

2) In 2001 66.4% of the population was between 15 and 64. <13% of the population was 65+.

3) 44/.23 = 191.3043, 191.3043 / 278 = 68.8%

Therefore, 31% of the US is !adult.

21.1% of the population is 14 or under. Factoring in an estimate for the next four years and an appropriate margin of error considering the significant digits and that we are working in the millions, it seems reasonable to me.

Percentages come from the CIA World Factbook for 2001.

Edit: cleaning things up a bit.

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[This message has been edited by Elseenas (edited 10-07-2002).]
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Postby Ensis » Mon Oct 07, 2002 10:15 pm

I AM THE SMARTEST MAN ALIVE



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Postby Guest » Tue Oct 08, 2002 2:26 am

Jegzed, coupla things:

1. Our rate of voter turnout hovers around 50%, so if 23% of the people are illiterate it could very well be that only a tiny percentage of those people vote.

2. Reading a newspaper isn't really a way to develop your own opinion, at least not here. Most of the major newspapers in the states print Opinion pieces from the right or left, and masquerade them as informational, rather than slanted.
Guest

Postby Guest » Tue Oct 08, 2002 2:33 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dulzuth:
<B> Yeah, it is a shame isn't it? If the popular vote did then we would be a democracy. (For those ignorant of the fact, we were formed a Republic after the ancient Roman government, and we still are) Though I have to say there's really nothing wrong with Bush, between him and Gore it's a hard choice lol... Remember, Gore invented the Internet! *roll*

And about insulting the English language? I think everybody in this country does it to some extent, but because of how strong the Texan accent is, I guess that makes someone who has it, an idiot. But that's like saying, anybody with a New York accent and who uses New York slang has to be an uneducated idiot.

Just my 2¢, don't feel offended as talking about Politics seems to do that, this is just what the other side has to say I guess...

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Laugh about the internet quote all you want, but the 2 key people who developed the backbone of the original internet have both stated publically that to a large extent he is responsible for where the internet is today.

When they went to congress for funding, it was Al Gore who listened. I personally detest the man, but that quote shouldn't be used against him, as the people who were responsible for it back him on it.

The reason it blossomed from the universities-only beast it was into the one we know today is largely due to the committee Gore was on, and his push to get funding.
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Postby Daz » Tue Oct 08, 2002 2:40 am

wooo! educated information!


hi5 iya

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Postby Elseenas » Tue Oct 08, 2002 3:49 am

Iya:

The "internet" existed long before Gore became the vice-president or had more than a glimmer in the world.

He had a great deal of value in its comming up into the popular view, but the internet (anyone remember Mosaic? Lynx? arapnet?) predates Gore even on the political scenes.

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Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
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Postby Elseenas » Tue Oct 08, 2002 3:50 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
I AM THE SMARTEST MAN ALIVE
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good thing that 50% of the world is smarter then, isn't it?

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Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
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Postby Mplor » Tue Oct 08, 2002 7:20 am

Iyachtu's right about the Gore thing. The original quote was basically this: "I took a leading role in inventing the Internet." In the feeding frenzy that is the presidential campaign media pool, one outlet paraphrased it and it got picked up as our favorite quote: "I invented the Internet." I'm sure you remember that the same thing happened to Bush alot during the same campaign. Hell, it happened 10x worse to Bush with all the published quotes that made him sound ignorant, but none of them stuck as solidly as the Internet quote did to Gore.

I guess he meant it more like "I took a leading role in inventing the Internet as we know it," which is a true statement. Either way, it stuck to him and, in a close election, probably sunk him. You can't leave yourself that open to ridicule and survive in the US political climate.

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Postby Daz » Tue Oct 08, 2002 7:58 am

Elseenas . . . no, I'm not even going to say anything. But I'll taunt you with the fact that I was going to say something, but anyone who has read your post will able to imply their own snickers and comments about your remarks as well, or perhaps better than, I would be able.

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