Don't even get me started...

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
Nikelon
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Don\'t even get me started...

Postby Nikelon » Sun Sep 29, 2002 10:48 pm

How many things can you find horribly wrong with this chain email?

<I>This is a statement that was read over the PA system at the football game at Roane County High School, Kingston, Tennessee, by school Principal, Jody McLoud, on September 1, 2000. I thought it was worth sharing with the world and hope you will forward it to all your friends. It shows clearly just how far this country has gone in the wrong direction.
"It has always been the custom at Roane County High School football games, to say a prayer and play the National Anthem, to honor God and Country.
Due to a recent ruling by the Supreme Court, I am told that saying a Prayer is a violation of Federal Case Law. As I understand the law at this time, I can use this public facility to approve of sexual perversion and call it, "an alternate lifestyle," and if someone is offended, that's OK.
I can use it to condone sexual promiscuity! , by dispensing condoms and calling it, "safe sex." If someone is offended, that's OK.
I can even use this public facility, to present the merits of killing an unborn baby, as a "viable means of birth control." If someone is offended, no problem.
I can designate a school day as, "Earth Day" and involve students in activities to worship religiously and praise the goddess, "Mother Earth," and call it "ecology."
I can use literature, videos and presentations in the classroom that depict people with strong, traditional Christian convictions as, "simple minded" and "ignorant" and call it, "enlightenment."
However, if anyone uses this facility to honor God, and to ask Him to bless this event with safety and good sportsmanship, then Federal Case Law is violated.
This appears to be in consistent at best, a
nd at worst, diabolical. Apparently, we are to be tolerant of everything and anyone, except God and His Commandments.
Nevertheless, as a school principal, I frequently ask staff and students to abide by rules with which they do not necessarily agree. For me to do otherwise would be inconsistent at best, and at worst, hypocritical. I suffer from that affliction enough unintentionally. I certainly do not need to add an intentional transgression.
For this reason, I shall "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's," and refrain from praying at this time.
However, if you feel inspired to honor, praise and thank God, and ask Him, in the name of Jesus, to bless this event, please feel free to do so. As far as I know, that's not against the law----yet."
One by one, the people in the stands bowed their heads, held hands with one another, and began to pray.
They prayed in the stands. They prayed in the team huddles. They prayed at th!
e concession stand, and they prayed in the announcer's box.
The only place they didn't pray was in the Supreme Court of the United States of America - the seat of "justice" in the "one nation, under God."
Somehow, Kingston, Tennessee remembered what so many have forgotten..We are given the Freedom OF Religion, not the Freedom FROM Religion. Praise God that His remnant remains!
Celebrate Jesus in 2002!
Jesus said, "If you are ashamed of Me, I will be ashamed of you before my Father."
If you are not ashamed, pass this on, but only if you mean it.
Yes, I do Love God. He is my source of existence and Savior.
He keeps me functioning each and every day. Without Him, I will be nothing, but with Him, I can do all things through Christ that strengthens me.
Philippians 4:13</I>

BTW, not to offend or anything, but does the fact that I got this from 4 different baptist friends who all wake up at 5:00 in the morning to go to youth group before school say anything about the baptist church?

-Nikelon/Dizhes

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Daz
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Postby Daz » Sun Sep 29, 2002 11:05 pm

Snicker. Prayer in school is a crock of shit, and I personally am thrilled that it is no longer allowed. A moment of silence I am cool with, those few minutes of snoozing at the beginning of the day can make a world of difference.

If they DO allow prayer in schools, then I would demand they allow wannabe wiccan chicks to run naked in the halls. I want the little black magicks freaks to be able to sit in the lunchroom humming and pouring blood on their heads. I want the scientologists to continue making movies like battlefield earth. Or, the christians could shut their mouth and pray at home.

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Postby Kallinar » Mon Sep 30, 2002 10:11 pm

*Hi-5 Daz*

I totally agree. Prayer in school? Sure let my girlfriend and her friends sit in a circle, burn candles, ect, and celebrate the solstice while yer at it.

Whats good for the bible thumper has got to be good for the pentacle wearer.


Kallinar was here.
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Postby Gormal » Mon Sep 30, 2002 11:18 pm

i like how you all say that prayer in school has to be jsut christian...why dont you pull yer heads outta yer butts and stop flaming christians. This whole thread is retarded.

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Postby moritheil » Tue Oct 01, 2002 12:11 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gormal:
i like how you all say that prayer in school has to be jsut christian...why dont you pull yer heads outta yer butts and stop flaming christians. This whole thread is retarded.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, IMHO, the answers have been.

*ponder* We got any Muslim mudders?

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Postby Arases » Tue Oct 01, 2002 1:04 am

Actually, yes.
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Oct 01, 2002 5:46 am

Actually the issue is prayer in school being led by the faculty. If I sit in a high school and say a prayer, no problem. But if a principle does it over the PA system then he is basically pushing his beliefs people who might have different views. The responses in this thread concentrate on Christian prayer because Christians are the only people who complain about this sort of thing. All other religions seem to be fine with it... heh. They must not see much need to push their religion on young people who are just starting to gain the capability to think for themselves...

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Postby moritheil » Tue Oct 01, 2002 1:11 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Arases:
Actually, yes.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

rock on.

Actually Sarvis, I think they are under the impression that this is supposed to be (historically) a Christian country. I have heard many people talk about this idea.

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Postby Rausrh » Tue Oct 01, 2002 1:58 pm

Actually moritheil, I think people are responding to the thread which was started by a post refering directly to christian prayer in schools. Note the reference to Christian convictions, God, Jesus, and quotes from the bible(Philippians 4:13). Throw in the fact that Nikelon got the email from 4 christian friends before they went off to a christian church.


Gormal, I didn't see anyone bashing christians in particular. More like poking fun at religion in general. All I saw was people making fun of a prinicpal whineing that he couldn't lead a christian prayer in front of the whole school and communitiy. They are complaining that the leader of the school didn't say: 'May God bless us, may Allah shelter us in his hand, and may the Earth hold us in her embrace.'

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Postby Krogenar » Tue Oct 01, 2002 4:30 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B>Snicker. Prayer in school is a crock of shit, and I personally am thrilled that it is no longer allowed. A moment of silence I am cool with, those few minutes of snoozing at the beginning of the day can make a world of difference.

If they DO allow prayer in schools, then I would demand they allow wannabe wiccan chicks to run naked in the halls. I want the little black magicks freaks to be able to sit in the lunchroom humming and pouring blood on their heads. I want the scientologists to continue making movies like battlefield earth. Or, the christians could shut their mouth and pray at home.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the school system as a national organization should be shattered into dust.

A new ammendment should be added to the Constitution allowing every parent the right to school their child as they see fit.

Tax money should be divided equally among all the students in a system, and every parent should be issued an educational voucher, worth that amount of money. They can use this money in any way to educate their child.

If you want to send your child to the Wiccan School of Naked Chicks Covered in Blood - have at it. If you want to send your child to the John Travolta Scientology School (where the BattleField Earth theme is the school song) - no problem.

It's your money, your child, and your choice.

If there are enough people out there who want a certain kind of education, the free market will respond. If so many children and parents have a hankering for secular, atheist education, school will appear.

That way, if you decide to send your child to a school, and then discover that they (horror of horrors!) ALLOW them to pray before a football game... well, you can take your money and your child elsewhere.

That's the beauty of a market system - no one has to be unhappy. Everyone has to agree to do business in order for it to happen.

In addition, a market system approach to education would allow each school to be a small experiment of its own. If I were running a school, and discovered that a competitor was using a certain technique to improve their school - I would adopt it.

Instead, we have a monolithic school system that doesn't educate anyone. In a market system you can vote with your dollars.



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- Krogenar
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Postby Gurns » Tue Oct 01, 2002 9:03 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Krogenar:
I think the school system as a national organization should be shattered into dust.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The U.S. schools aren't a national organization. These days, states and local school districts have about equal power, the feds have considerably less than either. Even if Dubya's plan goes through, the feds will still have less power.

Now, me, I'd be somewhat pleased to see greater federalization of the schools, because that would make it possible to eliminate some school inequalities.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">A new ammendment should be added to the Constitution allowing every parent the right to school their child as they see fit.</font>


No need for an amendment, parents can pretty much do that already. Most states don't have a lot of barriers to home schooling, nor private schooling. Fairly minimal requirements for achievement and lesson plans, non-hazardous conditions, and the like.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">If you want to send your child to the Wiccan School of Naked Chicks Covered in Blood - have at it. If you want to send your child to the John Travolta Scientology School (where the BattleField Earth theme is the school song) - no problem.</font>


You can, assuming you can find such a school.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">It's your money, your child, and your choice.</font>


In all such arguments, nobody ever mentions schooling as a public good. If it really is my choice, shouldn't I be able to leave my child illita...illiti...unable to read and write? After all, if the kid can read, he might read stuff I don't want him to read!

Fortunately, I don't have that choice (and no, for this argument, it doesn't matter that public schools leave some children functionally illiterate). It is good for the country, it's good for the kid, to learn to read. My parental rights don't go that far. And they shouldn't. Hence, the existence of minimum requirements for private and home schooling (and no, the fact that such laws are rarely enforced doesn't matter for this argument).

If you really want a free market system for schools, then how about the fire department? The police? The military? Or are those things so essential that we can't afford to leave them to the market?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">If there are enough people out there who want a certain kind of education, the free market will respond. If so many children and parents have a hankering for secular, atheist education, school will appear.</font>


It sounds nice, but it's not true, in the general case. Because the market for schools is limited by things other than direct costs, such as time, transportation availability, and transportation costs. Even in a big city, you would not see every type of desired school being built.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">That's the beauty of a market system - no one has to be unhappy. Everyone has to agree to do business in order for it to happen.</font>


That's what sucks about a market system. If there aren't enough folks in my city, county, state, country, world that want what I want, I can't get it. If there aren't enough folks in the area that want something like what I want, I can't get it. Unless I want what everyone else wants, I have to be unhappy.

Most importantly, at least in the U.S., if there's not a big profit to be made, I can't get it.

A number of private companies have tried to take over public school systems. They promise increased achievement and lower costs. Some are still trying, but most have given up after a few years. And I think I've only heard of one city where a second company tried, after the first company gave up. That indicates to me that there's not a profit to be made in schooling, at least, not at the current spending levels on education.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">If I were running a school, and discovered that a competitor was using a certain technique to improve their school </font>


Schools already do this, all the time. The number of new proposals, new programs, new teaching plans, new books, new techniques that come out in any year is staggering. Every principal,most teachers are exposed to a lot of these, every year. And they'll even try some of them out. Especially ones that they see working at other schools.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Instead, we have a monolithic school system that doesn't educate anyone.</font>


Uh, most people get a fair bit of education out of the school system. You probably learned reading, writing, and basic mathematics at your school, some history, probably science, maybe foreign languages. If you didn't learn them, you probably had the opportunity to learn something: such courses were being taught. I'm well aware of the problems with the current school system, but most of today's critics invariably make it sound worse than it is. I realize that's small comfort to the kids that get screwed because they go to the nation's least effective schools.

Now, if you want to tell me that almost every kid should be getting more education out of the schools than they do, I'd agree completely. The courses may get taught, but the amount of material available in those courses is probably lower than it should be.

And, if you can tell me the mechanism by which a free market would get more education into the schools, would put more content into the courses, I'd be happy to listen. But to invoke free markets and to automatically assume they would fix all the problems... well, that's as much an article of faith as any of the religious stuff in this topic.
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Postby Corth » Tue Oct 01, 2002 10:43 pm

this article is ironic considering some of the posts in this thread:

High school Satanism club prompts parental outrage

http://www.sanmateocountytimes.com/Stories/0,1413,87%257E11268%257E887397,00.html

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Postby Daz » Tue Oct 01, 2002 11:15 pm

I think christianity is a f'ng joke. The word hypocrisy should be embedded into their doctrines, if they are not already. "My daughter, a member of the Christian club, was outright horrified that other religions exist!"

Oh yeah, can I get a christian to validate and justify this type of claim?

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Postby Corth » Tue Oct 01, 2002 11:35 pm

Daz, its misleading to put that line in quotes. Nobody said that in the article.

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Postby Daz » Wed Oct 02, 2002 6:56 am

ok, what characters should i type it in to show the mock sarcasm in my voice?

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Postby combatmedic » Wed Oct 02, 2002 8:11 am

how bout to just not type it?

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Postby Daz » Wed Oct 02, 2002 7:50 pm

Boy, just ignore the truth. Solve's all of Christianity's problems, don't it?

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Postby Corth » Wed Oct 02, 2002 9:16 pm

Daz,

I don't know how you should get across sarcasm on the bbs. But its very misleading, especially for a sensitive topic like this one, to make up a quote from an article, and then ask people to comment on it... which is what you did with that particular made up quote.

Corth

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Postby Corth » Wed Oct 02, 2002 9:20 pm

My take...

I dont care about religion, I don't believe in god. I don't see why its necessary to have some sort of structured prayer in a public school. As far as I am concerned people can pray privately.

It seems strange to me, however, that the principle of that school in the article approved a satanism club while a christianity club would invoke the wrath of the civil liberties union and be declared unconstitutional.

Corth

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Postby vezasee » Wed Oct 02, 2002 9:46 pm

That school did have a christianity club, the female student that was quoted as being horrified was a member. Prayer hasn't been banned in schools on an individual level. If a group of tenth graders want to get together on their lunch break and pray thats fine. It's prayer led by staff that is banned. As it "forces" the faith of the staff member leading the prayer on all members of staff and students. I'm all for prayer in school if it is student initiated. I'm also all for moral and religious studies if it touches many major religions.

I don't have a problem with God...Its his fans. Not that I'm saying that I dislike all religious people, just the rigid ones who tell me my soul is beyond redemption because I don't worship or believe as they worship or believe.

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Postby Jegzed » Wed Oct 02, 2002 9:52 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
It seems strange to me, however, that the principle of that school in the article approved a satanism club while a christianity club would invoke the wrath of the civil liberties union and be declared unconstitutional.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I think that is not the point..

If a non-private shool upholds one superstition OVER any other superstition or endorse one by saying its prayers or rituals before schools, then THAT is against the constitution.




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Postby Mplor » Thu Oct 03, 2002 12:16 am

Very well-said, Gurns. People readily believe in the most ridiculous ideas.

Jegzed is exactly right. As long as the Christian Student Union has a charter at the school, the Satanic club must not be prohibited.

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Postby Corth » Thu Oct 03, 2002 1:45 am

Hrmm, missed the Christian club bit. Yeah, that makes sense. I see no reason, as well, why there shouldn't be a satanism club too. Of course, I myself probably wouldn't want to associate with such freaks...

Corth

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Postby Sarvis » Thu Oct 03, 2002 1:57 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>Hrmm, missed the Christian club bit. Yeah, that makes sense. I see no reason, as well, why there shouldn't be a satanism club too. Of course, I myself probably wouldn't want to associate with such freaks...

Corth

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You mean people who like to think for themselves rather than having all their beliefs stuffed down their throats by religious leaders who can only cite a 2000 year old book?



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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Oct 03, 2002 2:25 am

ROFL

And what, pray tell, makes Satanists so much more original thinkers than Christians?
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Postby sok » Thu Oct 03, 2002 2:26 am

Your enlighten minds dazzle me, but then again I'm just a mindless fool who can only cite a 2000 year book. Should we move this to the Yayaril's See the light post?
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Postby Daz » Thu Oct 03, 2002 5:09 am

no, that thread is irking turxx's 'longest thread' post, and we should leave it alone and pick up religious arguments here Image

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Postby Rausrh » Thu Oct 03, 2002 1:28 pm

I find it soooo funny that everyone posting on this thread has the same views on prayer in schools, and yet we still find something to argue about.

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Postby Corth » Thu Oct 03, 2002 5:04 pm

If i was the principle of that school I would happily allow the satanism club. And then I would institute a policy which in a very neutral manner, listed all extracuricular student organizations that someone joins on their transcript. If these kids feel so strongly about their beliefs then i'm sure it wouldn't bother them.

Corth

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Postby Krogenar » Thu Oct 03, 2002 5:16 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gurns:
I'm well aware of the problems with the current school system, but most of today's critics invariably make it sound worse than it is. I realize that's small comfort to the kids that get screwed because they go to the nation's least effective schools.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Small comfort indeed! I live in New York, and work in New York City, where public education is downright awful. The teacher's union, and those who kowtow to them cling to the same solution year after year: more money, smaller classrooms, etc.

None of that has worked in the last decade. As spending of education goes up, performance goes down. There's a hole in this particular bucket! The problem with the system is that no one has any incentive to improve. In what other industry can you fail horribly... and then get a larger budget?

No one has the courage to address the fact that public education, as a system, doesn't work. In a free market, if a customer is unhappy, they go to someone else. If the seller provides a crappy product, they can expect to go out of business, not become subsidized!

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">And, if you can tell me the mechanism by which a free market would get more education into the schools, would put more content into the courses, I'd be happy to listen. But to invoke free markets and to automatically assume they would fix all the problems... well, that's as much an article of faith as any of the religious stuff in this topic.</font>


This has nothing to do with faith. Market forces can be harnessed to work with almost any system. This is not a case in which I'm asking you to believe something in blind faith. Look at the world. Those countries that embrace a market system, the principles of capitalism, have greater choices, better quality, and supply meets demand wherever possible.

I could decide to start my own school, as a business owner. I'd have to hire teachers, buy books, and other supplies. Find a site for it, etc. I'd follow my business plan. By necessity, I'd probably try to make the school attractive to the greatest number of parents as possible - whether that be declaring it an atheist school, or a Mormon school is irrelevant. Because of the profit motive, I'll be spurred on to find more and better ways to service my customers.

The education of students would be best served in that setting.

You mentioned that public schools were not federally controlled. They are. It's called the Department of Education. http://www.ed.gov/

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">No need for an amendment, parents can pretty much do that already. Most states don't have a lot of barriers to home schooling, nor private schooling. Fairly minimal requirements for achievement and lesson plans, non-hazardous conditions, and the like.</font>


Not always. There are many cases in which the state did not want children to be home schooled. I agree that the government should have SOME guidelines, but in general, I think children would be better off in the hands of their parents.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
In all such arguments, nobody ever mentions schooling as a public good. If it really is my choice, shouldn't I be able to leave my child illita...illiti...unable to read and write? After all, if the kid can read, he might read stuff I don't want him to read!
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I decide I don't want my child to learn how to read, then yes, the government should back off. The government isn't my 'daddy'. They have no right to interfere, or determine the curriculum. But you're quoting a very, very small percentage of people who would likely do something so stupid.

Suppose I decide to home school my child, and the majority of the curriculum is about Buddha. Can the government claim that I have no right to do that? Or that the curriculum is incorrect? That would be religious persecution. A voucher system with strings attached wouldn't work.

I know its scary for bureaucrats to 'allow' people to make decisions that they deem stupid - but that's the price we have to pay for liberty.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
Fortunately, I don't have that choice (and no, for this argument, it doesn't matter that public schools leave some children functionally illiterate).</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're not afraid that YOU don't have the choice. You're happy that OTHERS don't have that choice. You are denying them their right to make their own decisions because you don't agree with them. That's oppression.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
It is good for the country, it's good for the kid, to learn to read. My parental rights don't go that far. And they shouldn't. Hence, the existence of minimum requirements for private and home schooling (and no, the fact that such laws are rarely enforced doesn't matter for this argument).</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you completely on the effects of making bad decisions. I hope that parents would choose literacy, over illiteracy. But you and I don't have that right. And we shouldn't be held accountable for the results, either.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
If you really want a free market system for schools, then how about the fire department? The police? The military? Or are those things so essential that we can't afford to leave them to the market?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that when a system fails, it should die. If I treated my customers horribly, they have every right to find an alternative. As it stands now, most parents have no choice but to send their children into the government's education monopoly.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
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If there are enough people out there who want a certain kind of education, the free market will respond. If so many children and parents have a hankering for secular, atheist education, school will appear.
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It sounds nice, but it's not true, in the general case. Because the market for schools is limited by things other than direct costs, such as time, transportation availability, and transportation costs. Even in a big city, you would not see every type of desired school being built.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's the beauty of a market system - no one has to be unhappy. Everyone has to agree to do business in order for it to happen.
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That's what sucks about a market system. If there aren't enough folks in my city, county, state, country, world that want what I want, I can't get it. If there aren't enough folks in the area that want something like what I want, I can't get it. Unless I want what everyone else wants, I have to be unhappy.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So what? If demand isn't great enough for a service, why should it exist? If I decide I want to purchase a Vanilla Ice Signature Watch, and I'm the only person who wants it, should someone be FORCED to manufacture such an item??? No... not all demands will warrant the market's attention.

But if there were hundreds of people like me, hankering for a Vanilla Ice Watch, then there might someone out there willing to create the item, and market it to us.

This is an argument I run into often, when discussing a national education voucher system: 'If the system doesn't work to 100 percent efficiency, it's worthless.'

That doesn't follow. Most of the teachers I've interviewed have indicated that the number one factor in whether a child learns is parent involvement.

So let's say a voucher system WAS instituted, and some parents did not avail themselves of it, and continued to send their children to a bad public school. Fine! That's their choice. But let parents who do care enough the chance to do something.

Also, the market system shows an amazing ability to meet consumer demand - even inventing needs people never knew they had!

Anyone here ever hear of a 'Salad Shooter'?
You toss vegetable of your choice into one end, and it fires perfectly sliced veggies into your salad, like a vegetarian gatling gun.

Ask yourself... were people standing at their kitchen counters, slicing carrots, and cursing that the universe made them do so? No! It's a handy device, but will we die without it? No. But people buy it. They buy it, and they're shooting sliced eggplants onto their salads with glee.

That's because both parties, the seller and the buyer, want to be happy. In a similar way, privately run schools would seek to find new ways to educate, and train young people.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
A number of private companies have tried to take over public school systems. They promise increased achievement and lower costs. Some are still trying, but most have given up after a few years. And I think I've only heard of one city where a second company tried, after the first company gave up. That indicates to me that there's not a profit to be made in schooling, at least, not at the current spending levels on education.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Two reasons for why that can happen. One, the government ties the hands of those schools with overbearing legal restrictions and rules, disallowing the very flexibility required for the school to break new ground.

Second, the teachers unions are ferociously against these schools. They don't want to see their cushy jobs threatened by competition. In reality, a voucher-driven system would allow the best teachers to command higher and higher salaries - as should be the case.

Finally (oops, a third!) - maybe these failing school failed because their systems failed. Failure is a part of the market system, as I've exhaustively explained. A school that does not teach its students deserves to die, if only so that someone else can try.

Whoever can succeed would become fabulously wealthy, and deserve every penny, including my own, if I decide to send my children there.

Public schools continue to fail and REMAIN OPEN.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The number of new proposals, new programs, new teaching plans, new books, new techniques that come out in any year is staggering. Every principal,most teachers are exposed to a lot of these, every year. And they'll even try some of them out. Especially ones that they see working at other schools.</font>


Yes, but none of these programs have to pass the reality test - whether they work or not, they continue to receive funding. Remember the ebonics debate a few years back? The educrats that run the system decided to create a fake language that inner-city students could speak. Designed to raise their self-esteem, it was a laughable idea, but par for the course. Today, they continue to put forward lame ideas like abolishing testing.



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- Krogenar
Zellin
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Postby Zellin » Thu Oct 03, 2002 7:31 pm

"That's the beauty of a market system - no one has to be unhappy. Everyone has to agree to do business in order for it to happen."

Um, cuz this worked soooo well with our nation's corporations...look how well they turned out! Now apply their wealth of compassion and generosity to the world's children as well.

"In addition, a market system approach to education would allow each school to be a small experiment of its own. If I were running a school, and discovered that a competitor was using a certain technique to improve their school - I would adopt it."

I'm all for educational reform, but do we need to perform experiments on kids? A person's education is not really something to exoeriment with. Unless we want more Yayarils running around.

"Instead, we have a monolithic school system that doesn't educate anyone. In a market system you can vote with your dollars."

Turning school into a market system will only result in monopolies. Turning schools into corporations will only put the focus on profit, not education. Schools will start forcing students to wear uniforms with Pepsi sponsor logos on them and start fudging profitability reports just like Andersen!

[This message has been edited by Zellin (edited 10-03-2002).]
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Postby Corth » Thu Oct 03, 2002 7:58 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zellin:
<B>Turning school into a market system will only result in monopolies. Turning schools into corporations will only put the focus on profit, not education. Schools will start forcing students to wear uniforms with Pepsi sponsor logos on them and start fudging profitability reports just like Andersen!
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rofl, and the present system of government subsidized public education ISNT a monopoly?!

If the market system were applied to schools I guarranty the quality of education would increase exponentially. Parents would demand results and refuse to send their kids to schools that did not do a good job educating kids. Those schools would go out of business. Yes, profit would be the motivation of the school, but the only schools making a profit would be the ones doing a good job at educating the kids. Currently parents have no choice and just send their kids to whatever school they have been assigned to. That school, in turn, is accountable to nobody. Why? Because it IS a monopoly (no real competition) that doesnt have to turn a profit.

Corth

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Goddamned slippery mage.

[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 10-03-2002).]
Xebes
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Postby Xebes » Thu Oct 03, 2002 8:52 pm

Just hope they don't ALL go out of business because none of them are up to par. :P

On a less sarcastic note, what really determines if a school is successful? Is it that its graduates go on to make the most money? <-- But you don't have to be the most educated to make the most money, so this _shouldn't_ be a measure. However, it probably will be, because most parents are QUITE interested in making sure their kids can be as rich as possible.

Look at schools today. Do they really care about your _education_? How many people go to college because they want to learn, and how many because they "make more money with a degree"? Why at many high schools (or at least at mine) could you not test out of a single class?

Answers to these seem to give a little bit better understanding of the attitudes of schools. And it's not a problem just at the high school level. How many elementary school and kindergarten classes teach independent thought?

I'm currently in college and beginning work on three (3) degrees. I look around and everyone else just wants the money, the next best thing. At any level, it really doesn't seem like the public as a whole is concerned with their own personal education. This is a large part of the problem. People do not see why it is necessary for them in particular to be educated. (Note, this is not true of everyone, just a majority, it seems.)

Example: Why take Calculus? I hear this every day. "Why take it? It's not like I'll ever need to use it after college." Is this a valid way of thinking?

So. Back to the original topic. What does God have to do with education at all? My thought on the matter is this: Parents raise their children to believe in the same things. What happens first for a majority of American children? Formal education at school, or going to church? In an overwhelming majority of young people, you can convince them that what they learned in school is wrong, but for some reason, they have a very difficult time even thinking for a moment that something that God said (read as what they learned either from parents or church) is even slightly untrue. Personally, I do not believe in God.

In my eyes, when you declare that something is "right" or "true", it creates intolerance to some degree. It scares me to talk to some of the Christians I know, just in their closemindedness about how things are. I have to stop and ask myself though, am I being the same way towards them? I must realize that not all christians are intolerant to this degree and in this way. But back to the topic at hand.

I do not feel _any_ religions should be actively promoted in a secondary school environment. However, this is a pipe dream. No matter what rules or constraints are imposed, you will still have groups of students who insist on being closeminded. Now, just the passage of time dictates that some of these students will, in the future, become teachers and still retain these close-minded views. And nothing you write into law will prevent this. So what if it has been ruled unconstitutional? There are still many communities in America where the ruling will be absolutely ignored. It seems as if in this situation, I believe people will follow what their religion seems to tell them should be done over what some politician is saying they can't do. How do you deal with a person that thinks that failing to teach someone good behaviors and morals of whatever religion they follow is a sin in and of itself?


Anyways, ending the rant/ramble here. I know I've created many more questions than those I have answered, but as is anything, this is just food for thought and nothing more than my personal opinion.
-Xeb
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Postby Zellin » Thu Oct 03, 2002 9:47 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B> Rofl, and the present system of government subsidized public education ISNT a monopoly?!

If the market system were applied to schools I guarranty the quality of education would increase exponentially. Parents would demand results and refuse to send their kids to schools that did not do a good job educating kids. Those schools would go out of business. Yes, profit would be the motivation of the school, but the only schools making a profit would be the ones doing a good job at educating the kids. Currently parents have no choice and just send their kids to whatever school they have been assigned to. That school, in turn, is accountable to nobody. Why? Because it IS a monopoly (no real competition) that doesnt have to turn a profit.

Corth

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe, I am well aware of this...we just don't need to make the problem any worse than it already is...We already have McDonald's to serve us shitty food, we don't need a McDonald's to serve us shitty people too!

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Postby Corth » Thu Oct 03, 2002 10:39 pm

Gosh.. McDonalds sure is an enigma. The food is crap and yet people keep coming back for more. Over a billion served, right? Why is that?

Corth

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Goddamned slippery mage.
Jorus
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Postby Jorus » Fri Oct 04, 2002 4:23 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B> Rofl, and the present system of government subsidized public education ISNT a monopoly?!

If the market system were applied to schools I guarranty the quality of education would increase exponentially. Parents would demand results and refuse to send their kids to schools that did not do a good job educating kids. Those schools would go out of business. Yes, profit would be the motivation of the school, but the only schools making a profit would be the ones doing a good job at educating the kids. Currently parents have no choice and just send their kids to whatever school they have been assigned to. That school, in turn, is accountable to nobody. Why? Because it IS a monopoly (no real competition) that doesnt have to turn a profit.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd look forward to being able to take classes at my local walmart.

Depending on how profitable it is, you'd start to see things like this.

What would you do if a large school "chain" went out of business mid-year? oops.

It's not like a retail business where the market can adapt with a week's notice.

Of course, that doesn't neccesarily mean it's a bad idea, just that some thought would have to be given to isolating instabilities to the summer holidays somehow (perhaps require year-end registration, combined with anual funding "proposals"?).

Regards,
Jorus
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Postby Glorishan » Fri Oct 04, 2002 5:11 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>Gosh.. McDonalds sure is an enigma. The food is crap and yet people keep coming back for more. Over a billion served, right? Why is that?

Corth

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Two All Beef Patties, Special Sauce, lettuce, Cheese, Pickles, Onions, on a Sesame Seed Bun, Fries and a Soda -- That's why!

Glorishan


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Postby Mplor » Fri Oct 04, 2002 5:24 am

http://www.prospect.org/print/V7/26/schrag-p.html

A review of the failings of school privatization efforts in the 1990s.

I (and most economists) firmly hold that there are some things that cannot be provided more efficiently and fairly by the private sector. Though it has yet to be successful, I won't object to rhetoric about how national school privatization might save taxpayer money in the short-run. I will, however, express my strong doubts about the ability and willingness of such a system to provide an equivalent level of schooling to the farmer's child in a one-room schoolhouse, the moderately handicapped special-ed kid, the young, impoverished African-American in rural Mississipi, and the white suburbanite's little-leaguer.

Our present system is in great need of improvement if we are to catch up with the likes of Northern and Western Europe, but I am unaware of any of those nations which have gained their lead on us by way of national privatization of the compulsory educational system.

[This message has been edited by Mplor (edited 10-04-2002).]
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Postby Frobakhal » Fri Oct 04, 2002 5:41 am

I hope you guys realize just how much Christians have done for the world. Many orginizations had been started such as the Salvation Army, World Vision, amnesty international etc...that have aided people all over the world. I'm not denouncing other religions, I'm sure there have been many contributions and I have personally met some great people who were not christians.

The whole point I believe from your baptist friends sending you that link has nothing to do with being a baptist, perhaps you're getting that confused with Jahova witness's.

As for pray in schools, I personally didn't appreciate it much when I was younger, but now that I am older I am glad they had prayer in school. Many things we tend to hate when we're young, we value having had the experience and 'rigorous' periods of having to sing for our country and pray.

I would wager there are people in school now who don't even know the words to their national anthem, or what christians are about. Let's not be ignorant about what many true christians have done for the world. Whatever the religion, the values, beliefs, morality behind it should be the important issue. I admit I'm christian and part of my coming to being has been through living accordingly to god's word, events that have unfolded and been proven through scientific means that hold strong what truths in the bible are factual.

I agree in freedom of choice. If my freedom was taken away from me, then what kind of democracy would we be living in today? If someone wants to have prayer in school, let them. But I would rather go to a religious school but of course this wouldn't be funded in part by the government, and only the rich would be able to benifit from this.

I just hate to see what the reprecussions would result in events like this unfolding in the world for when 'we' are living out our senior years when we become less and less important in the world except for when voting season comes along. 18-49 years of age is what the media strives to provide entertainment to aquire their financial gain. Just turn on the tv, watch the commercials. All I ask is to keep an open mind, be educated and respect what other people believe in.

Thanks.
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Postby Frobakhal » Fri Oct 04, 2002 6:02 am

Before anyone even replies to my post if that is the intent. I just wish to relate to you that I had the benifit to grow up in non-christian schools and experience what difference there is compared to many people I have worked with who have gone to private christian schools after I moved to B.C. Many people have false and misleading viewpoints about christians and the religion. You cannot take a small handfull of people who fanatics or whatnot and label the rest of the religious followers as just that, or the lack thereof such as people who proclaim to be christians who don't even try to live as one.

Many uneducated people will 'knock down' a religion, 'christianity', 'Muslims' or ethnic background such as 'american indians', or race 'blacks, etc'. You can go back over the history books and read up on the violence and immoral behavior that had undergone which I'm glad has significantly improved. If people had a bad attitude towards these things, then I wouldn't be here today as abortion would of been an option to my parents, but with christian values I'm glad they didn't choose the later.

The problem with some is ignorance and the idea that there isn't much to understand about one group or another and you can second guess what they are about from a few personal experiences. You cannot judge people unless you look at both sides of the coin. Don't be foul mouthing or mocking a good thing.

I just cannot stand ignorant people who are to lazy to go and search out the truth. They are blind in their own self accord.
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Postby Corth » Fri Oct 04, 2002 8:48 am

Mplor:

Couldn't agree with you more

Privatization wouldn't work in a rural area. Its not economically efficient to have two school where you have hardly enough kids to fill one. When I advocate privatizing school i almost exclusively have urban areas in mind. These are of course the areas that are doing the worst job currently. A city, like New York, which has about 1500 schools within the radius of a few miles, could offer a huge variety of different programs and curricula which would be tailored towards the disparate needs and desires of the children in the city. Why give them only a few choices when they can have hundreds? And the best way to accomplish this is to privatize the schools so that each school tries to make itself attractive to parents or end up being taken over by another company that can get the job done. If you think about it, an urban area should be offering a much better education than a rural area because of the diversity that is possible.

Corth

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Goddamned slippery mage.
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Fri Oct 04, 2002 3:15 pm

Look,

It's clear that you all have WAY too much free time. Am I gonna have to speed up efforts getting you all killed so you don't have so much free time?

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Krogenar
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Postby Krogenar » Fri Oct 04, 2002 7:08 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zellin:
Um, cuz this worked soooo well with our nation's corporations...look how well they turned out! Now apply their wealth of compassion and generosity to the world's children as well.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh please, that's the stupidest argument I've ever heard. If I could point out ONE or TWO examples of the public schools failing (I'd have several hundred thousand to pick from) and then declare the entire system corrupt, you'd laugh at me too.

The fact is, the Arthur Anderson crowd was caught, and held to rights. The company is going out of business. Listen up folks - THEY'RE PAYING THE PRICE FOR THEIR FAILURE.

As they should. Who would go to A.A. to get their accounting done? No one! Not anymore! And this affects all the other corporations as well; CEO's are now scrambling to assure their shareholders that what happened at A.A. and Enron isn't going to happen to them.
Pay attention again: THE REST OF THEIR PEERS ARE BEING HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR RESULTS.

So we have two major differences between the education system, and the market system. The market system corrects itself - with no government interference, no central control, it just reacts to the demands of its participants.

Those companies that held high ethical principles before the Enron and Arthur Anderson debacle are reaping the benefits right now. As they should.

Let's reverse the issue. Recent testing has determined that 75% of children passing through public education are performing far below acceptable standards. Failure. The result? We spend more money on education. When Enron was just starting to crumble, there was much talk of the government rescuing the company - but the government refused - as it should have!

I lost a lot of my own personal money in the Enron crash, so trust me, it was in my individual interest that the government bail me out. It was not in the interest of the market, however.

Other accounting firms, watching the Enron scandal, might get the mistaken idea that if their company is large enough that the government will bail them out that they CAN cook the books! And that wouldn't have helped anyone. These cases are evidence that the system works.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>"In addition, a market system approach to education would allow each school to be a small experiment of its own."

I'm all for educational reform, but do we need to perform experiments on kids? A person's education is not really something to exoeriment with. Unless we want more Yayarils running around.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ha. Funny. Image
An analogy that sums up the state of public education would be this: I have a virulent strain of cancer (public education), and will most likely die soon (graduate as an illiterate). Repeated attempts at chemotherapy have failed (increased funding). Would I be willing to try something new, somethat that did work for other ailments, but was untested for my own? Yeah, I'd go for it. I'd have nothing to lose.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Turning schools into corporations will only put the focus on profit, not education. Schools will start forcing students to wear uniforms with Pepsi sponsor logos on them and start fudging profitability reports just like Andersen!</font>


So what if I had to wear a little logo? If it meant the school can afford a new gymnasium, yeah, I might go for it. Wouldn't it be nice to see advertisers pushing for a chance to advertise at an excellent school?

As for fudging reports on student performance, there are already a number of public schools who have cooked the books, in regards to attendance. Why? The government pays the schools' budget depending on the number of students that show up. And if a privately run school cooked the books, well, they would face the same problems that Enron and A.A. faced: a massive loss of trust that would COST THEM MONEY. And since money is all they care about, it's in their own best interests to prevent ethical lapses.

It seems to me that the concept of profit is something dirty to you. Why? Why shouldn't people want to pay their bills? If someone can create a school that truly services students, why shouldn't they be rewarded?

I gush over capitalism because it harnesses the energy of people who care about nothing but themselves. Let's take your caricature of a businessman to the extreme. He's white, he's evil, he cares nothing for others - only for fattening his own wallet - nothing else. He's sitting at his desk, lighting a cigar with a rolled up $100 dollar bill, wondering what his next lucrative business will be.

He reads the newspaper, and notices over time that a lot of Hispanic parents would like their children to have a 'Latino-based' education. Hrm. He does some research, and discovers that Hispanics account for 20% of the state's citizens, and are growing over time. There could be some money here, and, purely out of a desire for wealth, he develops a business plan to create a 'Latino-based' school. There are vouchers out there, and parents can trade them in as cash, towards their children's education. He wants that money. His piggy little eyes see an opportunity for some money to be made.

He hires some Hispanic researchers, cause hell, he doesn't know shit about Hispanic people. So he has these people find out what the community really wants, and starts to find ways of meeting those needs. Turns out most of the families in question are fed up with the public schools and academic achievement is their top priority. Another high priority is learning English AND Spanish at the same time. Many of them are also Catholic, and would like the option of religious instruction.

He grumbles, since now he has to find teachers who are fluent in both English AND Spanish. But, since he wants that voucher money, he finds them.

After solving thousands of other logistical problems: books, classrooms (he decided to convert an old warehouse, rather than build a whole new building, to save cash), and written up individual contracts with over 100 new teachers - the first day of school begins.

Parents have traded in their government issued vouchers - each worth, say, $1200 each. That just happens to be the school's tuition. The evil businessman has figured that to get a good customer base, he has to keep his prices low, for now. (But he can't wait to raise them!)

All parents have had to read a document explaining the school's rules, and what's expected, and what will be taught, and signed on the dotted line. They understand that some students will take the option of religious intruction, but that they don't have to have their children involved - but they can't complain about it either. They can pull their children out of the school at any time, and their voucher money will be pro-rated. If they keep their kids in the school for half the year, they can only get half their voucher money back.

A year passes, and the school has been a success. Children at the school have had their test scores increase by 5%. Parents are flocking to the school. Now the businessman is rolling in the money. He can do several things. He can expand the school (increase supply) to take on the new students (and meet demand) or he can raise his prices! Since for this hypothesis he's an evil, money grubbing bastard, let's assume that he chooses to raise prices.

The tuition is now $1400. That means parents who want to send their children back can hand in the voucher (worth $1200) and pony up an additional $200. They love their son or daughter, and they really can see an improvement, so they decide to scrape up the cash. Another parent is less satisified with the results. His child hasn't improved. Surprise, surprise! Evil businessman has a competitor! Someone else has done the same research, or spied his success and opened up a similar school not far away. The second parent is going to give them a try.

Cursing his rotten luck, evil businessman hears that not only is this other businessman lowering his prices, he's also offering a free bus service to and from the school! And the other business man is trying to hire away his best teachers!

Evil businessman talks to his teachers (the ones considering moving to the competing school) and puts on his most charming, sharklike smile he has, and asks "What would make you happy?" The teacher asks for a raise, and gets it. Another teacher asks for far too much, and he refuses. That teacher goes to the other school.

Also, he tried to save too much on books, and some parents are complaining that the books are too old. Rather than risk losing their money, he promises newer books next year - and begins trying to find some other way to save money. Whatever he saves goes into his pocket, but if he sacrifices quality or service, he'll lose money.

E.B. is at the service of the market. If he makes his clients happy, he gets to pocket the profit. If he fails to make them happy (for whatever reason) he can expect to go out of business. He's taking a risk, and the payoff is the profit.

Throughout this entire debate, E.B.'s sole driving force has been profit, and yet his every decision has had the net effect of improving his school's performance.

And THAT's what a market system can do: it makes people who don't really care about others work for them anyway. Evil Businessman is a ridiculous reflection of what some people think an entrepeneur is like - and even so, he works for the common good.

All hail capitalism! Image


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- Krogenar
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Postby Zellin » Sat Oct 05, 2002 4:42 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Krogenar:
<B> So what if I had to wear a little logo? If it meant the school can afford a new gymnasium, yeah, I might go for it. Wouldn't it be nice to see advertisers pushing for a chance to advertise at an excellent school?

As for fudging reports on student performance, there are already a number of public schools who have cooked the books, in regards to attendance. Why? The government pays the schools' budget depending on the number of students that show up. And if a privately run school cooked the books, well, they would face the same problems that Enron and A.A. faced: a massive loss of trust that would COST THEM MONEY. And since money is all they care about, it's in their own best interests to prevent ethical lapses.

It seems to me that the concept of profit is something dirty to you. Why? Why shouldn't people want to pay their bills? If someone can create a school that truly services students, why shouldn't they be rewarded?

I gush over capitalism because it harnesses the energy of people who care about nothing but themselves. Let's take your caricature of a businessman to the extreme. He's white, he's evil, he cares nothing for others - only for fattening his own wallet - nothing else. He's sitting at his desk, lighting a cigar with a rolled up $100 dollar bill, wondering what his next lucrative business will be.

He reads the newspaper, and notices over time that a lot of Hispanic parents would like their children to have a 'Latino-based' education. Hrm. He does some research, and discovers that Hispanics account for 20% of the state's citizens, and are growing over time. There could be some money here, and, purely out of a desire for wealth, he develops a business plan to create a 'Latino-based' school. There are vouchers out there, and parents can trade them in as cash, towards their children's education. He wants that money. His piggy little eyes see an opportunity for some money to be made.

He hires some Hispanic researchers, cause hell, he doesn't know shit about Hispanic people. So he has these people find out what the community really wants, and starts to find ways of meeting those needs. Turns out most of the families in question are fed up with the public schools and academic achievement is their top priority. Another high priority is learning English AND Spanish at the same time. Many of them are also Catholic, and would like the option of religious instruction.

He grumbles, since now he has to find teachers who are fluent in both English AND Spanish. But, since he wants that voucher money, he finds them.

After solving thousands of other logistical problems: books, classrooms (he decided to convert an old warehouse, rather than build a whole new building, to save cash), and written up individual contracts with over 100 new teachers - the first day of school begins.

Parents have traded in their government issued vouchers - each worth, say, $1200 each. That just happens to be the school's tuition. The evil businessman has figured that to get a good customer base, he has to keep his prices low, for now. (But he can't wait to raise them!)

All parents have had to read a document explaining the school's rules, and what's expected, and what will be taught, and signed on the dotted line. They understand that some students will take the option of religious intruction, but that they don't have to have their children involved - but they can't complain about it either. They can pull their children out of the school at any time, and their voucher money will be pro-rated. If they keep their kids in the school for half the year, they can only get half their voucher money back.

A year passes, and the school has been a success. Children at the school have had their test scores increase by 5%. Parents are flocking to the school. Now the businessman is rolling in the money. He can do several things. He can expand the school (increase supply) to take on the new students (and meet demand) or he can raise his prices! Since for this hypothesis he's an evil, money grubbing bastard, let's assume that he chooses to raise prices.

The tuition is now $1400. That means parents who want to send their children back can hand in the voucher (worth $1200) and pony up an additional $200. They love their son or daughter, and they really can see an improvement, so they decide to scrape up the cash. Another parent is less satisified with the results. His child hasn't improved. Surprise, surprise! Evil businessman has a competitor! Someone else has done the same research, or spied his success and opened up a similar school not far away. The second parent is going to give them a try.

Cursing his rotten luck, evil businessman hears that not only is this other businessman lowering his prices, he's also offering a free bus service to and from the school! And the other business man is trying to hire away his best teachers!

Evil businessman talks to his teachers (the ones considering moving to the competing school) and puts on his most charming, sharklike smile he has, and asks "What would make you happy?" The teacher asks for a raise, and gets it. Another teacher asks for far too much, and he refuses. That teacher goes to the other school.

Also, he tried to save too much on books, and some parents are complaining that the books are too old. Rather than risk losing their money, he promises newer books next year - and begins trying to find some other way to save money. Whatever he saves goes into his pocket, but if he sacrifices quality or service, he'll lose money.

E.B. is at the service of the market. If he makes his clients happy, he gets to pocket the profit. If he fails to make them happy (for whatever reason) he can expect to go out of business. He's taking a risk, and the payoff is the profit.

Throughout this entire debate, E.B.'s sole driving force has been profit, and yet his every decision has had the net effect of improving his school's performance.

And THAT's what a market system can do: it makes people who don't really care about others work for them anyway. Evil Businessman is a ridiculous reflection of what some people think an entrepeneur is like - and even so, he works for the common good.

All hail capitalism! Image


</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was an excellent fairy tale, Krogenar. Sadly, business in the real world does not exist in such a Utopian reality. Our world, or "not-fantasy", as I like to call it, would see your evil businessman paying the lowest possible wages to his teachers, charging his students for their bus commute, and he would fail to provide his students with the option for cheap, nutritious (if not necesarily tasty) food. You want lunch, kiddy? The Big Mac combo's only $5.95. If you want something to drink, we've got Coke products, just $1.99 for a 20-ounce bottle. That's a steal compared to those $4 bottles of water at Woodstock, right? Sorry the water in the drinking fountain tastes like rust. Our bottled water's only $1.99.

Now, say your evil businessman still manages to turn a profit. He opens up a chain. Now students all across the country are getting the exact same education. His competitor? His business does well too, and he opens up a chain. Competition, right? No, my friend, that's an oligopoly. Young upstarts into the market, with new ideas, maybe even ones possibly worth trying, are immediately choked out of the market. If a parent decides that they are not happy with company A or B, what alternative do they have? None.

Oh, wait, and that point is only relative if these parents are able to scrape up the money for this "quality" new education in the first place. Otherwise, sorry kid, but you're gonna be reading twenty year old books in the gutter.

Meanwhile, the evil businessman and his cronies are hoarding cash from the crap they peddle (which there is no alternative to and will never be under the current system). His money sits in banks and stocks and piles on more imaginary money that does nothing but sit in bank accounts and stocks and pile on more imaginary money.

Every corporation involves itself in some sort of shady business. Because of the corporation's focus on never-ending profit, corners must constantly be cut, whether it means cooking the books, decreasing quality (see Chicken McNuggets) to cut costs, or stomping on any number of people's (or animal's) lives, and the process is entirely pointless.

All hail rebellion!


(Edited for typos.)

[This message has been edited by Zellin (edited 10-05-2002).]
Jorus
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Postby Jorus » Sat Oct 05, 2002 8:03 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Krogenar:
<B>All hail capitalism! Image
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All I can say is: Standardized testing.

Unfortunately I don't think the budget any government is willing to put into education would be enough to be attractive to corporations unless the corporations were also permitted to _heavily_ exploit access to children.

The way I see it, advertisment in school, and corporation controlled curriculum is just as bad as allowing religious preaching in school as far as the potential "damage".

Regards,
Jorus
Corth
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Postby Corth » Sat Oct 05, 2002 8:57 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zellin:
<B> That was an excellent fairy tale, Krogenar. Sadly, business in the real world does not exist in such a Utopian reality. Our world, or "not-fantasy", as I like to call it, would see your evil businessman paying the lowest possible wages to his teachers, charging his students for their bus commute, and he would fail to provide his students with the option for cheap, nutritious (if not necesarily tasty) food. You want lunch, kiddy? The Big Mac combo's only $5.95. If you want something to drink, we've got Coke products, just $1.99 for a 20-ounce bottle. That's a steal compared to those $4 bottles of water at Woodstock, right? Sorry the water in the drinking fountain tastes like rust. Our bottled water's only $1.99.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Zellin,

1. Yes, E.B. would try to pay his employees as little as possible. But if he doesn't pay enough, he wont be able to hire good employees. His customers (parents) will soon realize that they are getting a lousy product (education) and take their business elsewhere.

2. E.B. might very well charge his customers for the bus commute to his school. Or require them to take public transportation. Of course, this might make his product less attractive than the alternative product which includes transporation. This would be just another factor that a customer would have to consider when making his purchase decision.

3. You are right. He might decide to sell junk food in the cafeteria. Though I know that if I were a parent shopping for the best school I would certainly take into account what type of food is provided to my children, and at what cost. Maybe I would send my child to the McDonalds sponsored school and pack him a lunch every day. Why? Because the education is great (From all that corporate money coming in allowing EB to hire better teachers) and the tuition is cheap. Or perhaps I'd rather my child get healthy lunches and pay a little extra on top of the voucher money provided to me by the state so I could send him to a different school. Or maybe I send him to a middle of the road school where he gets average lunches and doesn't have to wear a corporate logo on his shirt as a uniform. Another factor to base my decision on!

Another important factor that you haven't mentioned is what type of product to purchase. Would a parent want a Christian based education for their child? How about Satanic? Math, science, history, english or spanish focus? Learning disabled? Gay? Conservative? Liberal? You get the picture...


Or, alternatively, we can just leave the present system alone and allow millions of urban kids to grow up illiterate and doomed...

Corth (who finds it funny that the person defending the status quo implores us to "hail rebellion")


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Goddamned slippery mage.

[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 10-05-2002).]
Zellin
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Postby Zellin » Sat Oct 05, 2002 11:00 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B> Zellin,

1. Yes, E.B. would try to pay his employees as little as possible. But if he doesn't pay enough, he wont be able to hire good employees. His customers (parents) will soon realize that they are getting a lousy product (education) and take their business elsewhere.

2. E.B. might very well charge his customers for the bus commute to his school. Or require them to take public transportation. Of course, this might make his product less attractive than the alternative product which includes transporation. This would be just another factor that a customer would have to consider when making his purchase decision.

3. You are right. He might decide to sell junk food in the cafeteria. Though I know that if I were a parent shopping for the best school I would certainly take into account what type of food is provided to my children, and at what cost. Maybe I would send my child to the McDonalds sponsored school and pack him a lunch every day. Why? Because the education is great (From all that corporate money coming in allowing EB to hire better teachers) and the tuition is cheap. Or perhaps I'd rather my child get healthy lunches and pay a little extra on top of the voucher money provided to me by the state so I could send him to a different school. Or maybe I send him to a middle of the road school where he gets average lunches and doesn't have to wear a corporate logo on his shirt as a uniform. Another factor to base my decision on!

Another important factor that you haven't mentioned is what type of product to purchase. Would a parent want a Christian based education for their child? How about Satanic? Math, science, history, english or spanish focus? Learning disabled? Gay? Conservative? Liberal? You get the picture...


Or, alternatively, we can just leave the present system alone and allow millions of urban kids to grow up illiterate and doomed...

Corth (who finds it funny that the person defending the status quo implores us to "hail rebellion")

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


That hail rebellion thing? Oh, couldn't you just FEEL the sarcasm?

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Ambar
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Postby Ambar » Sat Oct 05, 2002 1:28 pm

why do we have to post the WHOLE quote??? sheesh guys i dont even want to read this thread for that reason!

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Ambar -= Beloved Matron =- Crimson Coalition
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Postby Guest » Mon Oct 07, 2002 7:20 am

The thing I always get a kick out of is people who put forward the notion that the "separation of church and state" is constitutional. Please quote for me the section of the constitution that says that, if you can.

As for the actual text in the constitution it says "Congress shall pass no law..." That's why it's the Supreme Court that continues to endeavor in this area, since the congress is specifically prohibited from doing it.

But hey, alot of people like their judges to be legislators. Saves them the work of putting Amendments forward.
Guest

Postby Guest » Mon Oct 07, 2002 7:25 am

Hey Zellin, I worked at a high school last year. Guess what? The water from the drinking fountains tasted like rust, and they had vending machines on the campus (sodas and junk food).

So guess what? The current system isn't preventing profiteering by businessman either. What was your point exactly?

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