Don't even get me started...

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
Zellin
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Postby Zellin » Mon Oct 07, 2002 10:13 am

Everyone seems to be under the impression that I want our school systems to stay just the way they are. Let me put that misconception to rest: Our school system needs to change. What I am saying is that allowing corporations more influence than they already have is a terrible idea. It will only exacerbate the problem. Privatization is not the answer for our schools.

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Krogenar
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Postby Krogenar » Mon Oct 07, 2002 1:16 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zellin:
<B> That was an excellent fairy tale, Krogenar. Sadly, business in the real world does not exist in such a Utopian reality.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ugh! Zellin, you couldn't be more out of touch with the necessities of capitalism. I'll refute your points one by one. My point is creating E.B. was to show how capitalism can harness even a negative person's efforts for the good of society.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Our world, or "not-fantasy", as I like to call it, would see your evil businessman paying the lowest possible wages to his teachers,</font>


Well, of course he would pay as little as possible. His reasons for doing so can vary. He could be doing it because he needs to save money to buy that 'HealthFood' catering franchise for the school, so that he can crow to prospective buyers (parents) that his school will have healthy food.

And why does he want to make his school attractive to buyers? For profits sake. Ooo!! Run for cover, the evil profit motive rears its ugly head again! Profit is not evil, nor is chasing it. You see it as the evil modus operandi of capitalism. I see it as the reward, the carrot, needed to keep entrepeneurs on the right track.

Oh, and teachers would be able to ask for higher wages too! If they see that the school is doing well, at their next contract meeting, they can ask for more money. And they may get it! Would that be so horrible? Not at all. I think the best teachers should be paid like sports stars get paid. If you're a superior teacher, you should be paid what you're worth, and not have to be a martyr.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> charging his students for their bus commute, and he would fail to provide his students with the option for cheap, nutritious (if not necesarily tasty) food. You want lunch, kiddy? The Big Mac combo's only $5.95.</font>


Ah, I see. You want a FREE lunch. Whether you like McDonald's food or not is irrelevant since no one is forcing you to eat there. For all your rhetoric about 'rebellion', your point of view is actually the most restrictive. What if I don't WANT to drink your bottled-from-protected-streams water? What if I want a Whopper, with extra cheese, and bacon. It's my right to choose the Heart Stopper Combo if I want to - you have no right to FORCE me to eat what you define as healthy.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
Now, say your evil businessman still manages to turn a profit. He opens up a chain. Now students all across the country are getting the exact same education. His competitor? His business does well too, and he opens up a chain. Competition, right? No, my friend, that's an oligopoly. Young upstarts into the market, with new ideas, maybe even ones possibly worth trying, are immediately choked out of the market.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, so E.B. is a success. His parents are happy because their children are getting a better education than they were before. And E.B. then has the AUDACITY to try to REPEAT his success elsewhere! The nerve.

So now (according to your view) we'd have a horrible cookie-cutter education system spanning the country. What this proves is your unequaled arrogance that people are so stupid. We're all just a bunch of dumb sheep consumers, right? Wrong.

Businesses DO make changes to their basic business systems to accomodate local markets. And who forces them to do this? The profit motive, their own self interest. Here are a few examples of when companies FAILED to change their advertising, or their systems to meet local needs. The price they paid was profit loss.
  • When Braniff translated a slogan touting its upholstery, "Fly in leather," it came out in Spanish as "Fly naked."
  • Coors put its slogan, "Turn it loose," into Spanish, where it was read as "Suffer from diarrhea."
  • Chicken magnate Frank Perdue's line, "It takes a tough man to make a tender chicken," sounds much more interesting in Spanish: "It takes a sexually stimulated man to make a chicken affectionate."
  • Not to be outdone, Puffs tissues tried later to introduce its product, only to learn that "Puff" in german is a colloquial term for a whorehouse. The English weren't too fond of the name either, as it's a highly derogatory term for a non-heterosexual.
  • The Chevy Nova never sold well in Spanish speaking countries. "No va" means "it doesn't go" in Spanish.
  • When Pepsi started marketing its products in China a few years back, they translated their slogan, "Pepsi Brings You Back to Life" pretty literally. The slogan in Chinese really meant, "Pepsi Brings Your Ancestors Back from the Grave."
  • When Coca-Cola first shipped to China, they named the product something that when pronounced sounded like "Coca-Cola." The only problem was that the characters used meant "Bite the wax tadpole." They later changed to a set of characters that mean "Happiness in the mouth."
  • A hair products company, Clairol, introduced the "Mist Stick", a curling iron, into Germany only to find out that mist is slang for manure. Not too many people had use for the manure stick.
  • When Gerber first started selling baby food in Africa, they used the same packaging as here in the USA - with the cute baby on the label. Later they found out that in Africa companies routinely put pictures on the label of what's inside since most people can't read.

Finally, some good news. When the show 'Joanie Loves Chachi' (a spin-off of the popular 'Happy Days' show) was sent over to the Philipines, it was watched by nearly every man in the country. The demand for the show was outrageous. Turns out 'chachi' is slang for 'penis' in their language.

Coca-cola is also known to adjust its 'special formula' to account for differences in taste. Drink a coke in Mexico and it won't taste the same as one in the U.S. Why? In Mexico, they like theirs just a tad sweeter. Coca-cola fine tuned their product to meet the demands of their customers.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B> If a parent decides that they are not happy with company A or B, what alternative do they have? None.

Oh, wait, and that point is only relative if these parents are able to scrape up the money for this "quality" new education in the first place. Otherwise, sorry kid, but you're gonna be reading twenty year old books in the gutter.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here we go again. If the solution isn't perfect on the first try: don't try. That's lazy thinking. I'd rather have the OPTION to scrape some money together, than not even have the chance.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
Meanwhile, the evil businessman and his cronies are hoarding cash from the crap they peddle (which there is no alternative to and will never be under the current system). His money sits in banks and stocks and piles on more imaginary money that does nothing but sit in bank accounts and stocks and pile on more imaginary money.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whoa! Something tells me if we were face to face right now, I'd be wiping spittle off my face. Ack. Is it a crime to make money? Besides which, I don't want imaginary money, I want the real stuff. I think what you meant is that he takes his money and invests in other businesses, and puts more pressure on them to make money as well.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Every corporation involves itself in some sort of shady business.</font>


More stupid crap. No, my own corporation is not involved in any 'shady business'. I manufacture lamp shades (just kidding!). Seriously though, I do run a business, and we take care of our employees and our clients. This is where I spent most of my life. I want it to be a great place to spend my life. I'm not evil. And I do want to increase the profitability of my business.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
Because of the corporation's focus on never-ending profit, corners must constantly be cut, whether it means cooking the books, decreasing quality (see Chicken McNuggets) to cut costs, or stomping on any number of people's (or animal's) lives, and the process is entirely pointless.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So... your evidence of the market system's failure is... a Chicken McNugget? Has the quality of Chicken McNuggets been slipping lately? Image You call them 'corners' to be cut, I call them 'waste'. In my own business, I use fabric. It comes on big rolls. I made it my business to make sure my people were cutting the fabric in the most economical way possible. Example: I need to cut two 30"x72" pieces of fabric from a roll. The roll is 60" wide. Sometimes I would find the employees rolling out 144" of material, and cutting it down the middle. Instead, I have them cut one single 72" wide piece, and split it widthwise. I reduced waste, and put money back into the business. Money I can use in lean times to keep my employees, rather than lay them off. I've worked with some of these people for 10 years - I care about them, and they're good for my business. Your attitude towards business people is flat out wrong.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
All hail rebellion!
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, by defending the failing system that exists. Thanks Corth, for your own reponses.

(Edited for typos.)

[This message has been edited by Zellin (edited 10-05-2002).][/B][/QUOTE]

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- Krogenar

[This message has been edited by Krogenar (edited 10-07-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Krogenar (edited 10-07-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Krogenar (edited 10-07-2002).]
Zellin
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Postby Zellin » Mon Oct 07, 2002 10:46 pm

Tell me, Krogenar, do you run a business, or a corporation? You see, there's a big difference. I'm all for local business. Local businesses tend to be realistic, focus more on quality, and put money into the community. Corporations leech money from the community and give nothing in return.


Oh, and, by the way, Krogenar - I'm glad to see you that you completely ignored my post previous to yours in which I in no way advocate the status quo in our school systems, as well as my previous comment about my sarcastic mouth. Read ALL the posts next time. =)
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[This message has been edited by Zellin (edited 10-07-2002).]
Kallinar
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Postby Kallinar » Tue Oct 08, 2002 4:04 am

I have only 3 words for you people.

Lay off the crack pipe!!!

Nine out of ten moms prefer Kallinar over the leading brand of Ranger.
Krogenar
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Postby Krogenar » Tue Oct 08, 2002 12:33 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zellin:
Tell me, Krogenar, do you run a business, or a corporation? You see, there's a big difference.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

... (looks up at the above quote.
... What?!

Some businesses are not incorporated, but all corporations are businesses. A business that is incorporated just has a specific legal standing - that's the only difference. It's just a matter of organization, usually.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B> I'm all for local business. Local businesses tend to be realistic, focus more on quality, and put money into the community. Corporations leech money from the community and give nothing in return.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And what is your basis for your assertion. You don't seem to know the definition of what a corporation really is, yet you can lecture me with baseless generalities?

My company employs 25 people. We're harldy a mega-corporation. But I'd like to expand the company, at which point our size would force you to look down on us. Strange.

Could you explain how this works, please? Image
See, we're the wholesome, incorporated small business you like, but someday, if I can bring our success to a larger scale, we'd become an evil, world-ruining 'corporation'.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
Oh, and, by the way, Krogenar - I'm glad to see you that you completely ignored my post previous to yours in which I in no way advocate the status quo in our school systems, as well as my previous comment about my sarcastic mouth. Read ALL the posts next time. =)</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, I read all the posts. I just found no reason to respond to your post. I considered it a 'given' that everyone involved in the debate had a sincere desire to improve schools. From reading your own posts, that might not have been so apparent - which might have been why you felt the need to post that note. But, I gave you the benefit of the doubt. I couldn't imagine you as someone who secretly (hahaHAA!!!) wanted to RUIN the schools (as if they could be made worse.)

Ok. Myself and others have put forward our strong belief that a voucher system should be tried. I've heard your objections. Now, since you've pointed out that you think they should change, can you tell me what your plan would be to improve schools - since we all agree that serious change is needed.

I await your reponse with baited breath!




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- Krogenar
Krogenar
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Postby Krogenar » Tue Oct 08, 2002 12:36 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kallinar:
<B>I have only 3 words for you people.

Lay off the crack pipe!!!

Nine out of ten moms prefer Kallinar over the leading brand of Ranger.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ack. I think these past few discussions on Iraw, America, and religion, school choice, etc. to be very interesting! I mean... there are other threads out there if you don't like this one. I think this one, and others, are great! I look forward to them. Image


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- Krogenar
Rausrh
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Postby Rausrh » Tue Oct 08, 2002 4:20 pm

*Ponders Kallinar's ability to count*

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sok
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Postby sok » Tue Oct 08, 2002 8:54 pm

is school really that bad in this day and age? i haven't been in public school since '94. we had large class sizes and i still manage to get decent education. i said decent since i dont really know what good or what's bad, but i graduated and moved on. i attended venice hs and alhambra hs, are these exceptional schools? i know venice got extra function cuz it specialized in different langugages. alhambra had tons of students and had a high asian populations. the pressure to do better was greater than i felt at venice hs but regardless i still did fine.

i wonder how much is it school's responsibilities, personal responsibilities and parents responsibilities?

i like the idea of vouchers seems like a good system. since i dont really have any ideas how to improve the system its the best one so far. having read 'The Jungle' i can understand Zellin's fear of big corporations; however, i believe the government has regulations in place to protection the public. i think in the after thought of that book it address how big corporations were regulated and changed to better the public instead of harm.

in the same respects i believe that a little socialism isn't necessarily bad. i dont know if this thought is based on liberal influences or actual beliefs in the betterment of all. i havent given it much thought because politics isn't my cup of tea.
Mplor
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Postby Mplor » Wed Oct 09, 2002 1:58 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Krogenar:
<B>I await your reponse with baited breath!
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I desperately hope you mean pink marshmallows and not earthworms, salmon eggs, or any of various larvae.

(It's "bated".) Image

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[This message has been edited by Mplor (edited 10-08-2002).]
Krogenar
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Postby Krogenar » Wed Oct 09, 2002 12:06 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mplor:
<B> I desperately hope you mean pink marshmallows and not earthworms, salmon eggs, or any of various larvae.

(It's "bated".) Image

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

:eyeroll: You're quite right. I meant BATED.
That might explain why I've received no response yet... Image

[Ilegal use of ellipsis, five yard penalty.]

You can use marshmallows for bait, when fishing? I didn't know that. Image

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- Krogenar

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