Newbie leaders...

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Zen
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Newbie leaders...

Postby Zen » Fri Sep 20, 2002 2:04 am

I don't know if anyone else has encountered this or not, but I certainly have. It seems that the vast majority of the old, confident zone leaders on the mud have moved on or aren't leading too much anymore for whatever reason. There is a rush of younger, less experienced and less charismatic leaders who seem to be rushing into zones. For the first time in my mud experience I find myself keeping a list of people I won't follow. This is something I've been mulling over lately. While my decisions on who to follow are my own to make, I got to wondering what is it that set some of the older leaders I enjoyed following apart from the crass, panicky fools that I see running around at the moment. Myself included in that category.

Personally, I've decided to lead and learn as many zones as I can from people I respect. I think that the only remedy is to do something rather than stand around an wait for someone you like to lead you by the hand.

That said, I was wondering if some of those older leaders could offer me some general pointers on conducting a group with some charisma and general CR advice and all the stuff that is somewhat universal to group leading. Input from Corth, Dornax and some of the evils would be extremely appreciated here.

Thanks guys,

-Zenriel

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Postby Ensis » Fri Sep 20, 2002 3:27 am

Thats pretty tough just blacklisting people because you don't like the way they lead. It's kinda low to post that there are people you'd blacklist for that too. If someone isn't leading the way you want them to, give them a nudge or whisper something in their ear.

I'm glad people stepped up to start leading. Back when Gormal first got back up to 50th almost NOBODY would go with him because of his aggressive "spank mightily" attitude, and now he's got a fairly vast knowledge of a lot of zones and does them well even without the typical caution that a lot of leaders run zones with. And in the end it makes it more fun.

Support the newb leaders, the more they spank and pick themselves up off the ground, the more they learn (except moritheil).



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Postby Sargax » Fri Sep 20, 2002 3:38 am

Swimming!

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Postby Daz » Fri Sep 20, 2002 3:41 am

heh, in my early years, i still remember sok, the platinum dragon running around doing wicked CR's :P

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Postby Croban/Owom » Fri Sep 20, 2002 4:14 am

I certainly keep track of the good and the bad. Wastes my time to join the leaders that take four (4) hours to do vault and attempt to get me killed while doing it.

Don't even get me started on the difference between fun as a caster vs. fun as a warrior either. Fast and rash are only fun for those that survive or have exp teams on standby.

To try to add some value to the thread, I would say first make sure everyone understands up front you are learning the zone, and how much of the normal full zone you plan to do (since some people only seem to want to learn the part they need an item from vs the entire zone). Having the zone already mapped out with text messages for each fight to be able to copy/paste (i.e. blink for this fight, need enlarge for trip, no silence or the bish goes crazy, order of kills, need pfc for this one, etc), understand you ARE the leader and thus are responsible for all macro decisions and groups ultimate success/failure. When a mob dies, be prepared to say what the next target should be. Delegate the responsibilities, be up front with any split besides the standard open process. If you have any doubts about a fight, dscale/displace everyone. If you do not play a cleric/chanter learn how the spellup system works for layering all the spells. Helps if you have a shadow leader in the group to work with, too.

Having an illusionist in the party is great for CRs. Dog-piling mobs rarely works. Image


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Postby Corth » Fri Sep 20, 2002 5:27 am

Even experienced leaders were at one time new to it. I can remember some horrible experiences I had on toril trying to learn how to lead. Ask aradune sometime about the hours we spent trying to figure out how to do the griffon helm. Or the unfortunate people who followed me to bloodstone every boot (and got spanked half the time) trying to get a band of aided flight. Man I was bad.

Its all about practice. Over time I got better. The ironic thing is that the better you are, the easier it is to get experienced people to join your group, which of course makes you even better.

So here is what I learned about leading after years of ups and downs:

1) Your only as good as the people you bring along in your group. Sometimes its best to *not* do a zone if you don't have the tools to do it. Or another way to put it is choose good tools and treat them well so you can keep them. Image The other side of the coin is to not take people who you feel (for whatever reason, lack of skill, bad attitude, etc) hurt the group.

2) Your leadership skills are judged by how quick you do a zone and how few (many) people die. Most of us have jobs, spouses, children, school, etc, and want to make the most out of our personal recreational time. Sitting around waiting for the leader to move is a drag, as is doing exp to make up for multiple deaths. Unfortunately, often the quicker you move, the more people die. You need to strike a good balance between being careful and boring, or daring and dangerous.

3) Do not hesitate to ask for advice. Unless your name is Dartan, you don't know everything. It is not a sign of weakness for a leader to be truthful with his group when he is unsure of what the appropriate move is. Its actually a sign of confidence. Of course this is a lot easier when the group has confidence in your abilities. For a newbie, it might be better to find a few people you can trust and ask for advice in tells. The worst thing you can do however is perceive unsolicited advice as a challenge to your leadership. If you disagree, explain why you feel that way and give the other person a chance to respond. You never know, they might make a good point that you wouldn't have heard otherwise.

4) On the other hand, remember that you are the person solely accountable for the safety and livelihood of your group. Do not let a follower convince you to act against your better judgment. You are the one that will bear the consequences of your leadership decisions, not your followers.

4) Learn from your bad experiences but don't dwell on them. This has actually been one of my biggest problems. I tend to get frustrated after a bad group and carry on the frustration to the next one. Inevitably the next group is bad too. Your going to have many bad groups but the key is to dust yourself off, identify what you did wrong, and then leave it behind.

5. Have fun. If you do not enjoy leading then none of your group mates will enjoy following you. Don't ever feel that you are required to lead a zone because of guild or friendship obligations. Make sure *you* are happy before trying to make others happy as well.

---

I hope this was helpful. I'd also implore people that do not lead to be respectful to others that do. I think there is nothing wrong with avoiding certain leaders that you feel aren't so good. But you also need to remember that the mud needs a constant stream of new blood and if it dries up, eventually the mud will too.

Corth

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Postby gruldo » Fri Sep 20, 2002 8:23 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ensis:
<B>Thats pretty tough just blacklisting people because you don't like the way they lead. It's kinda low to post that there are people you'd blacklist for that too. If someone isn't leading the way you want them to, give them a nudge or whisper something in their ear.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

why is it low? he didn't mention names.. theres people i won't follow either i like said people i group with said people, but ill be damned if im gonna follow em into 30 minutes of zoning and 2 hours of cr then call it quits :P


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Postby Kifle » Fri Sep 20, 2002 9:15 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by gruldo:
<B> why is it low? he didn't mention names.. theres people i won't follow either i like said people i group with said people, but ill be damned if im gonna follow em into 30 minutes of zoning and 2 hours of cr then call it quits :P


</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but i am sure the person/persons he is speaking about know he is speaking about them...so it is kind of an insult no? If all he wanted to do was learn more about leading, wouldn't he just ask for the help instead of giving the added/unnecessary reason behind wanting to learn?

Also, like corth said, even he wasnt near as good as he is now and that blacklisting an up and comming leader is ass backwards to the growth of the mud. If one doesnt learn from their mistakes, one cant really get better can they, and in turn this person will stop leading because he/she is frustrated.

Just think zen, about those times you were a n00b and screwed up in zones. If everybody blacklisted you, do you think you would be as good as you are now...probably not. Hell, if i blacklisted ppl that, oh i dont know, ran into Xar for no apparent reason (you know i lub you pril) Nobody would learn anything and the mud would die out because a lot of the older leaders are apparently dying out.

That is what i think ensis means.

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[This message has been edited by Kifle (edited 09-20-2002).]
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Postby Galkar » Fri Sep 20, 2002 12:05 pm

As a newb, and a possible aspiring leader, I have something to say in defense of said newb leaders.

We are learning. New leaders that don't know the zones well, and are excited to be leading, are going to be over anxious, forget things, rush headlong into things, and cause spanks.

You know how you can help make new and better leaders, since the old timers seem to be fading? HELP THEM.

Telling someone who is trying to lead a zone for the first time that he sucks, is like telling a baby, you suck at walking, don't walk.

Help em out, give them advice, they obviously want to learn.

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Postby Zoldren » Fri Sep 20, 2002 1:05 pm

leading is 40% knowledge
10 % getting a group
40 % keeping people awake and alert to avoid a spank
10% trying to make it fun for everyone spank or not

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Ah the never ending good / evil debate has provided endless amusement for us all has it not? Both sides have a different mentality, evils appear to me as a closer nit group of people who expect a higher standard of play out of each other. Goodies are a broader group of people that cross group frequently and to me appear more easy going.
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Postby Wargo » Fri Sep 20, 2002 1:17 pm

Looks like I skipped that stage of learning. First zone I ever led was Jot invasion Image

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Postby Bagalutas » Fri Sep 20, 2002 2:37 pm

Hrm. Sounds pretty dumb that someone would only follow old experienced players and just dont give a damn of those who are still trying to learn how to learn the leading process. Give people a chance.
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Postby old depok » Fri Sep 20, 2002 2:37 pm

i don't lead zones (yet) but I follow lots of different leaders.

From a follower perspective here is what i like to see in a zone leader...

1. Be clear in what you want from each member. Don't assume they know the zone, the fights, what prots to wear, when to area or not area, etc.

2. Move please. It is ok to pause and collect your thoughts/figure out what is next. Tell the group what you are doing and they will understand. Don't just sit there for 10-15 minutes trying to figure out what is happening :>)

3. If you are not sure about the zone say so up front. It helps people understand the time element/danger element better.

4. Make sure that everyone's rolls are clear. This goes back to Number 1. If you want someone vitting tell them. If you need people to bash tell them, etc.

5. Have fun. Nothing worse than a leader who is yelling at people. If someone is screwing up tell them in a nice way what you want them to do. Normally if they are screwing up it's cause your not clear.

6. Should have been number one, get the best people for the group. As corth pointed out the better the people in the group the more successful the group will be.

For those of you who are experienced zone followers I would encourage you to group with leaders who are learning. It will help them greatly to see what a person with experience in your class can do. They can then ask the other non experienced people to do those things next time. It also is a good test of your abilities.

Kudo's to those of you learning and leading the zones. Drop me a tell if you need a shaman for your group :>)

Depok
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Postby Zen » Fri Sep 20, 2002 3:02 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bagalutas:
Hrm. Sounds pretty dumb that someone would only follow old experienced players and just dont give a damn of those who are still trying to learn how to learn the leading process. Give people a chance.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been around long enough to know you don't zone expecting to live unless you want to be let down. Spanking and dying are not criteria used to decide if a leader is good or bad in my book. It happens to everyone. Not knowing how to do a zone is quite different from not knowing how to lead. Any leader willing to bring a bit of respect and dignity to the group is worth following to death a few times. Group with Moritheil and you learn that leading isn't about if you spank or not, that's not what I'm talking about and that's not why I wouldn't follow anyone.

-Zen

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Postby sok » Fri Sep 20, 2002 4:39 pm

my first "big" zone i lead was ic. after about 4 hours and we only manage to kill malice. spank stories are more interesting than success story.

-i usually try to be a follower b4 attemping to lead that zone. it gives u general idea about layout, mobs, difficulties, etc. if you are crazy committed, then u can log the zone.

-dont be afraid to hurt feelings. dont ask folks to do stuff, tell them to do stuff.

-start with smaller zone to build confidence, learn how different class work in a group dynamic, what to do when things goes bad, etc. if u a goodie suggest taking 5-6 man group to evermoor or duergar. evils i would say try troll king.

-ressing: in big spank it usually takes as much time to get folks to group as it is to wait for ress, so you should ress. otherwise if it's faster to get folks up and continue zoning, ress when things are done. if folks start having multiple corpses it might be a good idea to stop and ress.

-CR: cr are considerable easier now. I didn't even know spank still existed. folks die shaman get corpse or rogues hide, or illustionist mislead+sequester, etc. but i remember in old days if it's a zone u can gate into if it's bad i drag a corpse to a safe spot ress them and kill myself so zone done pop. if it non-teleport then try to ress another resser and warrior.

-spank: when total spank happens, figure out if your group got enuf to get back to your corpse. if not, gods allow group to have more than 15 folks to cr.

sok

[This message has been edited by sok (edited 09-20-2002).]
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Postby moritheil » Fri Sep 20, 2002 4:42 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>Do not let a follower convince you to act against your better judgment. You are the one that will bear the consequences of your leadership decisions, not your followers.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I learn something every day. Thanks Corth!

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Postby Treladian » Fri Sep 20, 2002 7:57 pm

"1) Your only as good as the people you bring along in your group. Sometimes its best to *not* do a zone if you don't have the tools to do it. Or another way to put it is choose good tools and treat them well so you can keep them. The other side of the coin is to not take people who you feel (for whatever reason, lack of skill, bad attitude, etc) hurt the group."

This is a huge part of it. A few months into wipe when goodies started zoning, the zoning players were a mix of long time top-tier players, people that had been here a while but hadn't really zoned much, and newbies but everyone learned fast. Those that had been here a while knew what to expect and adapted tactics to zone situations quickly, those who were new learned from the other two quickly. We all listened to instruction and sat through it no matter how often we had heard it before just in case there was one person in the group unsure of what to do.

Even if you can't get a group composed of experienced players, you definately need to get a few. This serves multiple purposes: 1) You obviously benefit from what they can do as a player of their class 2) They can give pointers to those less experienced. You're going to be too busy enough without having to give suggestions to individual players. 3) Sometimes you're going to forget things. They can cover something you might have missed (ie, forgetting to set wimpies back to 0 before jot) 4) If you go down, someone's still there that can direct the group until you can get back. It sucks when the leader dies and the rest of group follows suit because no one else knows when to call everyone out.

There's no real secret to it. Leaders really depend heavily on their followers to carry things through.

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Postby thanuk » Fri Sep 20, 2002 8:35 pm

Just remember before you blacklist the entire mud please, that even the "good experienced leaders" that you guys are talking about were rash, newbie leaders at one point. One time corth got spanked in jot. You won't believe me, but i was there. It happens to everyone. Everyone gets spanked sometime, its part of the process of becoming a good leader. Just remember that the person you may blacklist today for getting locked in the vault, might just be the person who won't take you on the !death tiamat run because you blacklisted them.

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Postby Dalar » Fri Sep 20, 2002 9:09 pm

Another tip on leading is don't tell anyone it's your first time leading that zone unless u are having trouble. You don't want to cause panic and doubt in the group. Also, it's hella funny after doing jot invasion or manscorps saying "weee that was my first time leading and no deaths!".

For new leaders, the best way to 'learn' a zone is to just do it w/ someone else and watch what people are doing. Nobody ever taught me how to lead any zones; I just watched. Also, I think playing a caster helps with leading b/c u know what kind of downtime to expect and understand the capabilities of the mobs.


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Postby Daz » Fri Sep 20, 2002 9:55 pm

im not sure, but i think i remember my conjie grouping with corth in jot, diac was leading. corth was in his 'sandals and robes' nothing else thing. someone pissed off the giants, i died a total of 14 times. we didnt have a resser, and after the group - the mud crashed hard, and a bug wiped all the corpses. 45 to 42 in one day, no resses. heh, that sucked. to this day tho, that, my first trip ever to jot - stands out as one of the most enjoyable. (with thadrin's double boot double kosty dornax cr fun a close second).

the point is, a 'successful' zone can be defined different ways. dont let a bad run turn you off. you think its bad? follow mori, you will realize things could be worse. Image

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Postby Eza » Fri Sep 20, 2002 10:19 pm

omg. That "thadrin's double boot double kosty dornax cr" was so horrible and so completely fun all at the same time. Definitely an experience I won't ever forget. Image

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Postby Elisten » Fri Sep 20, 2002 10:21 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
All that Corth said in his post.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Corth,

Thank you.

I have often, in my journies, asked people how to lead groups. The responses range from "Oh, I'll show you sometime." to "Just ask so-n-so."

Well, kudos to you Corth. You have put alot of good information out there that I intend to take in hand and use.

Again, my thanks!
Elisten Image

(/end cheese)
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Postby Bipple » Fri Sep 20, 2002 10:56 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B>Just remember before you blacklist the entire mud please, that even the "good experienced leaders" that you guys are talking about were rash, newbie leaders at one point. One time corth got spanked in jot. You won't believe me, but i was there. It happens to everyone. Everyone gets spanked sometime, its part of the process of becoming a good leader. Just remember that the person you may blacklist today for getting locked in the vault, might just be the person who won't take you on the !death tiamat run because you blacklisted them.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It depends a lot why you're blacklisting someone. If he is inexperienced and gets the group killed a few times then that's really not a good reason to blacklist him, he'll learn and do better. If he treats the group like crap, swears at everyone, then claims everything for himself then you have every right not to follow him again because that's his personality and likely won't change.
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Postby Eilorn » Sat Sep 21, 2002 12:17 am

Generally, is there a preferred class for the leader? Or do leaders simply work around the class they are? From what I've seen, most classes are too pre-lagged (spell casters) or post lagged(melee) for the immediate running of a battle, except maybe bards. I've never zoned, so my perception is based solely on what I've seen posted in the logs section, and participation in small (up to 6) groups.

Eilorn.


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Postby Snurgt » Sat Sep 21, 2002 12:17 am

Well I just wanna say, I hope people have patience for new leaders. I led Brass the other day for the first time ever, and it went pretty well.

If no one has led before, leading is so much different than just following, I had no idea. Knowing when to call for mems, when to call for spellups, when you can get away without being fully spelled, 4 people teling you they have to leave in 30 mins, 20 mins, 45 mins, and 60 mins. It aint easy to worry about all that and remember where yer goin and what to do next.

But the best part was, I havent been that excited about zoning since the first time i'd zoned. It was a new experience, and I encourage everyone to try it.

One thing I did was, I waited until everyone was at air sphere, to tell em it was my first time leading Image I told them I was gonna go slow, no speedbrass(tm), and I was gonna be over-cautious. Everyone was pretty cool and I had alot of fun.

So just wanna thank everyone that came to Brass and trusted me to lead for the first time. I encourage others to do the same. Sure it wont be a perfect uber-fast run, but theres an appeal to knowing its not gonna be a flawless, 'roll over the zone' in 40 mins run Image

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Postby Daz » Sat Sep 21, 2002 1:32 am

One of my biggest peeves about leading zones this wipe is people who force their times onto others. I remember a time when, if you were going zoning, you turned off your phone and sat down at your computer for a few hours. None of this 'lets do jot, but I have to leave in 45 minutes. bid X.'

I used to love leading. To me, leading zones was like being a captain on the football field. Calling shots, setting the pace . . and moving the team toward a common goal.

I ALWAYS respect my leaders, and no one can ever claim that I bitched about something I did not like in a zone. I prefer following now, to leading - mainly because I am so far outdated on these zones. My knowledge of quests isn't so hot either. (That means I'm stupid, btw.)

I wish that I could group with more leaders like Snurgt, actually. Its the group members who force the fact that they can only mud for 30 minutes onto the rest of us that burns me.

(btw - I understand RL time constraints are gonna exist, I mean people who log on 30 minutes before they have to leave to go to work, and expect the world to fall into their lap. What if there is a spank? Zzzzzz.)

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Postby Jorus » Sat Sep 21, 2002 8:44 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B>(btw - I understand RL time constraints are gonna exist, I mean people who log on 30 minutes before they have to leave to go to work, and expect the world to fall into their lap. What if there is a spank? Zzzzzz.)

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As a leader and a group-member I'm pretty consistent with these things.

If I invite someone to zone, and they have to leave withing two hours, I like to hear about it (this is of course, zone dependent.. some zones it is easy to replace, even if there is a spank, others it isn't). It's generally not a problem for me, but knowing what to expect is very nice.

If I've been invited to a zone and have limited time, or a time I HAVE to leave, I will generally decline, saying I have "X time" (Or I will accept, and inform of my time limits, implying I can withdraw or replace myself). If the leader says come anyways, that's their choice. If it goes bad, or more time is asked for, I leave when I have to leave. If I am able to stay longer without RL consequences I'll try, but not always.

I've done this "leaving when I said I would" to the point of dropping link inside the safe room in crypts after a 3/4ths spank where I have a corpse at Azountil. Came back a few hours later and drug my corpse out ninja-style. No problemo! Ok, enough about me! *g*

Oh, also, if I'm on tight time, even if I've informed the leader, I will offer to find a replacement for myself.

My advice to new leaders?

Keep morale up. This can involve taking the blame for spanks that are the fault of someone else, or pure fate. This can involve knowing when to ask a single groupmember to risk everything for a cleaner CR (Eza and Jalahon have been there with me...), or even knowing when to ask someone who isn't leading but knows the zone extremely well to "take over" the CR (I've known some rogues who like having complete control while they're doing their ninja stuff). This can involve complimenting your group. This involves repeating instructions many times as needed. This involves telling new or inexperienced players _exactly_ what to do (and they usually appreciate it!) or asking one of the experienced players in the group to tutor them so you can focus on leading.

High morale also involves being clear in your instructions and asking for advice if you aren't sure.

This NEVER involves calling people names that aren't good. It never involves flipping out in any manner, or being rude to group members. It never involves ditching your group, as tempting as it may be.

Also, some further advice for when you are starting out:

Pick a zone. Make a group. Do the zone, painful as it is. Afterwards, sit down with yourself and think about every fight. Note what is needed everywhere, what went well, what didn't. Wait till the mud crashes. Do the zone again. Avoid what didn't go well last time. Repeat, repeat repeat.

You might get bored but..
a) you will know that one zone like the back of your hand.
b) Everyone will start to think of you as a leader because after the 3rd or 4th trip you know _exactly_ what to do.
c) Everyone will start to think of you as a leader because you've been recruiting for zones every boot for the last three weeks.

Some zones I would recommend for this step: IC, SG, Meilech (in approximately that order of difficulty -- though meilech has some fairly hard fights). CR's from all of these zones are fairly easy, and the fights have enough variety to get you and your group knowing how to handle different situations. Ribcage is pretty easy to lead if you don't do Paracs, but CR's from there _can_ hurt, so I'd avoid it at this stage.

Then pick another zone. Now that you have a (hopefully) wide circle of people willing to follow you, you should be able to get that zone "down pat" in a few trips.

Zones to pick at this stage? Dunno. Ribcage is pretty straightforward. Gith is uncomplicated (though it has challenging fights). Elemental tower is good too. Also any of the zones mentioned above.

Regards,
Jorus
Grogu
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Postby Grogu » Sat Sep 21, 2002 3:04 pm

*taps the microphone* Hello? Hello?
So then I says to her, "If you think THAT's big..."
Oh, this thing is on.

I'd like to add my piece to this. I'm a newbie leader here, dunno if I got blacklisted or not, but I enjoy leading.

1. Always follow someone else for the first, second, heck, fifth run through the zone. This way you know the fights, you know what to do and what not to do, and you know about what you'll need for the fights. i.e. how many warriors, how many clerics, etc. even if you don't know the zone layout itself.

2. Always be honest with your groups. I told everyone I had no clue where I was going in vault, and if anyone wanted to take over that aspect, I wouldn't mind. The group laughed and made me lead. (I still hold a deep regret and hope that I fail resurrect on each and every one of you! j/k) It took me a while, but I knew what to expect from every fight, and I did it all no death.

3. Don't be afraid to go slower even if people are telling you about their time schedules. I get tells all the time of people saying "I'm falling asleep" or "I might have to go at any time"
It honestly doesn't help if you worry about it a whole lot. Now, if the entire group tells you that at the same time, then you've got reason to panic. If you lose a warrior, then go a bit slower, do fights in multiple runs. Not everything has to be in, kill all, move along. Play a cleric, you get to understand this way better when soloing. What takes you a full offensive takes an invoker 2 spells =P

4. Always repeat instructions, even if you've heard it, and said it, a million times. Always repeat instructions. And be very specific about your instructions (still having difficulties on that). If you go "Tanks, n." and you're walking into a room where they bash to bash specific targets, everyone's supposed to target Bob the Slayer, and silence Billy the Generic Title, those who have done this fight before will probably take over. But those who are new to the fight have no clue. My first time in CC (level 50) no one told me what to do. I saw silences flying left and right, so I just sat there and healed the tanks, vitted my targets, and memmed.

5. Zone with a group of mainly people you've zoned with before. This way you know how they react in situations, and you can decide whether or not you want that in your newly leading zone. Take along a couple of newer players if you feel confident that your core group (the specific players that keep the group running imho are 1-2 warriors, enchanter, cleric, illusionist, shaman... anything else after that is damage and extra core buffer) can handle the situation and make sure that if there is any slack, it can be picked up

(Don't mean to sound harsh to those who play non-core group people, but that's mainly what I look for when I decide I want to lead a zone. Of course, this will vary depending on what I want.)

6. Stick it out to the end if you're the leader. NO ONE, and I mean NO ONE enjoys it if the leader loses faith in the group and gives up halfway. Generally people want to strangle you to death for a couple of days, so lay low if you do.

7. Keep a good face on. Watch Moritheil. He's become so infamous that people group with him knowing they're going to die! Yet he continues to lead and smiles his way through it. (You can tell by his picture that he enjoys what he does) Also reference to #6 he sticks it out to the end, even though there's 3 corpses of everyone.

8. You get full claim to all the money in the zone. This needs no explination. Move this up to #1 if you're in dire need of money.

Anyway, this is all from my own limited experience. I hope I'm not being a hypocrite somewhere. Enjoy =)

Grogu
Jegzed
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Postby Jegzed » Sat Sep 21, 2002 3:20 pm

Why blacklist anyone?

Everyone been a noob as leader once.

Of course there are guys I don't really feel comfortable following BUT.. I still follow them if they ask me and I'm not busy or planning anything.

I think anyone whining about noob leaders should STFU until they can lead better themself.

I applaud anyone trying to learn how to lead, because I know how thankless a job it is.



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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
Valke
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Postby Valke » Sun Sep 22, 2002 1:14 am

Ha, leading is know easy task as some of you know, I cought a taste of it and it almost made me quit playin. I give props to all who are well accomplished at leading zones and to all who are new and trying to learn!

Why dont some of you zone leaders share info about zones with noobs? Yeah sure some of you do! but I had a hard time gaining knowledge of any Image

Some of you say "you need to learn them yourselves" kinda hard when peeps dont have any patience with you, or fuckn slander you in front of others.

Grp... gets slapped by noobs!
Dalar
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Postby Dalar » Sun Sep 22, 2002 2:44 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Valke:
<B>

Why dont some of you zone leaders share info about zones with noobs? Yeah sure some of you do! but I had a hard time gaining knowledge of any Image

Some of you say "you need to learn them yourselves" kinda hard when peeps dont have any patience with you, or fuckn slander you in front of others.

Grp... gets slapped by noobs!</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why don't you just try to get into a zone group and watch? Nobody taught me how to lead manscorps, hulburg or jot invasion etc. but i can lead them. Same with a bunch of leaders. Has nothing to do with playtime, just patience and skill. Look at in this point of view: everytime there is a new zone people have to learn it from scratch.

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[Erevan] Our elite team of gods will be watching for equip campers.... beware...
Erevan OOC: 'One god is specifically assigned to Dartan :P'
Daz
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Postby Daz » Sun Sep 22, 2002 2:47 am

I got to do Myth for the first time last night. I logged the zone as always, and looked over it afterwards. We didn't get to complete it all, but I feel confident that I *could* lead it now. I would however rather wait and do the zone a couple more times before trying my hand at it, after all - i'm not one of the leaders.

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-Daz "<^> (*¿*) <^>" Proudwolf
Sarell
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Postby Sarell » Sun Sep 22, 2002 6:25 am

"40 % keeping people awake and alert to avoid a spank" ... bah... it's 97% at least! *duck*

Here are some of the main things I find help out to get through the zone when leading in a spiffy, (racing for the record time) kinda way.

Make it darn clear that you are moving, and if someone is sitting, send them sprawling, then move anyhow.

Experienced people make leading a zone easy, newbs (and adriorn) make it fun! :P Take a balance! hehe

Don't lead if you are playing the only enchanter. i.e. play a class that is good for leading, you want infra/SL permanantly.

Make sure everyone understands the protocols of spellups, mainly, don't spellup until your told, if spells should be constantly up/ rotating, and to send tells for DM dang nabbit!

I find a little speil at the start helps, make sure everyone knows that you want wanton destruction and efficiency.

ASK! this is a huge one, always ask if people are going to be afk, how long they have, if they have checked realms 55 times.

Someone going afk can be alright if you know they were going afk, or if they were a cleric so you assumed they would be afk anyhow.

Go in strong!!! If you are doing a zone, that may seem simple, e.g. SG, brass, crypts etc, make sure you are overpowered that first time! Hopefully this will compensate for that one thing you WILL forget under the pressure of leading a group.

If you havn't done the zones a kazillion times, make sure that you have someone with you who can act as a first advisor kind of thing. Get them to call the targets or something to take a little of the load off you on that first time.

Realm anyway .. If your in any way not sure, people will hate you less if you don't lose their bag.

If you are thinking of claiming the amy/etc, for heavens sake tell someone! :P

Use the words, Gusto, Mightily, Destruction, So?, as frequently as you can.

If one of your group members is trying to be a ninja and rescue you all from that bad ass spank, make them tell you WTF is going on, communication is the key to good CRs. If they don't tell you, ungroup them and get a new ninja. :P

Lets the rogues and rangers 'ninja' the coins from dead mobs, anything to shut them up about not having haste will make the experience more pleasant for everyone.

Take a good druid, or a warrior dressed in all red if you can, for some reason these characters are the cornerstone of any good group and are fun to give extra bids to aswell.

Speaking of cornerstones, when getting a group together, get your backbone first before you get your topping. Grab your stone / full heal / tank, and go from there.



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old depok
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Postby old depok » Mon Sep 23, 2002 3:30 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Eilorn:
<B>Generally, is there a preferred class for the leader? Or do leaders simply work around the class they are? From what I've seen, most classes are too pre-lagged (spell casters) or post lagged(melee) for the immediate running of a battle, except maybe bards. I've never zoned, so my perception is based solely on what I've seen posted in the logs section, and participation in small (up to 6) groups.

Eilorn.


</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is no prefered class for leading but you do need infravision and sense life.

In terms of battle orders, you should set them before the fight everytime. It is always good to reinforce the targeting during the battle but any class can do that and if you are laggy due to bash and the targeting is late it is usually not the difference in the battle if you set things up from the start.

No matter what class you are you should try to lighten your load a bit in terms of battle.

So bring an extra of your class if you can.

Of course if your a ranger then ungroup yourself for another cleric/shaman :>) JUST KIDDING (So sensitive)

I have zoned with almost every class being a leader (except a bard I think). The skill of the people in the group is hands down the determining factor to the success of the group.

Hope that helped.

Depok
Tanji Smanji
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Postby Tanji Smanji » Mon Sep 23, 2002 4:33 am

Rule 1. Know your classes and what they can do.

Rule 2. Know your classes and what they can do.

Knowing the zones is secondary at best. New zones go in, ppl still do them. You should have a decent understanding of how mobs work also. When do cleric mobs begin summoning, when do mage mobs begin dimming ect. Know how to lure and when, also who to let lure. Some classes lure better than others in different conditions.

Start small, GCD/Duergar Village ect to get the basics down, then do CC. CC is such a good learning zone for leading. Easy to reach, CR not too bad if you got a good rogue and has lots of different types of mobs and fights to get tactics worked out on.
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Mon Sep 23, 2002 2:50 pm

I knew this topic was gonna be big, but I didn't expect it to last this long!

Well, my advice to leaders is, make sure you CR everyone. The rest is secondary.

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You tell Gormal 'helping w/spank?'
Gormal tells you 'creating spank'
Trogar
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Postby Trogar » Mon Sep 23, 2002 7:22 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B> One time corth got spanked in jot.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I once saw Corth get spanked in the Tower. The Tower north of waterdeep. He racked up 13 corpses Image.

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Tro "Formerly the Show" HolyAnvil
Trogar
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Postby Trogar » Mon Sep 23, 2002 7:25 pm

Lots of people have said it best. Someone may sucketh now, but don't be surprised in 6 months when they have some followers and have learned most of the zones. Blacklisting is silly.

I have been watching leaders on toril / soj for many years, and I figure it takes 3-4 months of zone leading experince to start feeling really confident. Once someone has the confidence, knowledge, and 6-9 solid followers, things go fast.

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Tro "Formerly the Show" HolyAnvil
Abbayarra
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Postby Abbayarra » Mon Sep 23, 2002 8:00 pm

I run with a regular group of guys on weekends and it makes a huge difference if you know what to expect out of other people. We all take turns leading, some better than others. But again, I emphasize that knowing what you are going to get out of the other people in your group will keep you alive. You just might want to form your core group and do some experience for a few days before you go do a zone. It will save your life.
Abby
Drakkoth
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Postby Drakkoth » Mon Sep 23, 2002 8:42 pm

The key is to make some friends and start small. Preferably people you have xp'd with for some time. You will know them better, they will be more patient, and more forgiving.

Now, get your little band of people, and do something small now and then. Everyone "knows" other people, start grabbing some of their friends now and then and work your way up.

Don't just grab a bunch of random 50s and try to convince them to follow you , especially if you are doing something for the first time.

As to the breakdowns other people have been giving, I'd say it's more like:

50% communication (this includes typing and reading fast too)
50% patience

If you are a good communicator and extremely patient, you will be successful. Sadly, those are two traits which a lot of mudders have in extremely short supply.

Zone knowledge isn't important at all if you have those aforementioned skills--I did a lot of zones for the first time as a leader.

Lastly, if you have a bad experience, and think someone's a bad leader, hey, don't whine about it. Get some buddies and make your own group next time. I think most people in this game would rather go somewhere with a bad leader, than sit at the fountain. How do you think Jaznolg keeps getting groups together? (I kid, I kid!)

It's poor form to complain about the people who actually try and get you off your ass and into a zone. If there aren't many competent leaders, then guess what, I think you should take it upon yourself to correct the situation.

There ain't nothin' to it but to do it, player(s).

Drakkoth/Jerthal
Corth
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Postby Corth » Mon Sep 23, 2002 9:16 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Trogar:
<B> I once saw Corth get spanked in the Tower. The Tower north of waterdeep. He racked up 13 corpses Image.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


No No the famous 13.corth explosion was Tf. I only had 8 or 9 corpses in tower Image

Corth


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Goddamned slippery mage.
Tasan
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Postby Tasan » Mon Sep 23, 2002 11:24 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarell:
<B>
Lets the rogues and rangers 'ninja' the coins from dead mobs, anything to shut them up about not having haste will make the experience more pleasant for everyone.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hate you Sarell :!

Mori makes a good point, if you don't know how to CR, find someone who does fast, and make sure they happen as flawlessly as possible. Lost corpses/time and bad splits I'd say are the things most likely to get you "blacklisted". Take care of business when it comes to corpses, and have clear guidelines for the split beforehand and things will move a little bit smoother.

Oh, and as to the sense life/DI/infra thing, they aren't all that necessary, just send Thanuk into rooms and find out what's there.

Twinshadow

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Tanji group-says 'Twyl keeps thinkin he rolled a rogue'
thanuk
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Postby thanuk » Mon Sep 23, 2002 11:36 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tasan:
<B> Oh, and as to the sense life/DI/infra thing, they aren't all that necessary, just send Thanuk into rooms and find out what's there.

Twinshadow

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
First of all, I hate you.
Secondly, I have to admit after years and years of dying mightily that this actually does work quite well.
1996.
Sok group-says 'Thanuk east'
Sok group-says 'hmm beard...Mem up guys, thanuk consent me for ress in a minute'
1998.
Athorn group-says 'Thanuk east'
Athorn group-says 'remo...moving'
Athorn group-says 'consent the cleric we will ress you when it moves off your corpse'
1999.
Diac group-says 'nuk w'
Diac group-says 'yeah i thought it was juib'
Diac group-says 'we will ress you when we get to the tree'
2002.
Mikar group-says 'Ok the goal of this run is to get thanuk killed Image'
Mikar group-says 'thanuk east'
Mikar group-says 'remo...moving'
You group-say 'uhm...come help me?'
Mikar group-says 'where?'
Mikar group-says 'will ress you when it moves'

Twyl group-says 'nuk east'
Twyl group-says 'Die Thanuk!'
Twyl group-says 'we revive you in a minute'

Some things never change.


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Thanuk Pantherclaw

[This message has been edited by thanuk (edited 09-23-2002).]
Rokub
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Location: Jefferson, LA USA

Postby Rokub » Tue Sep 24, 2002 3:02 am

While following a experienced leader, watch which way they move, learn the exact moves, by just watching, that means your actually 'paying' attention to the whole zone, not being a bum and afking the whole time. This is how I learned most of the zones on sojourn. Yes you can't see when leaders sneak, and other factors, so u can't learn like that, but I suggest by just paying attention you can learn what the zone looks like, and make a map in your mind.

You people are stupid... are u? Its not that hard to learn a zone and how it looks, and what monsters there are, and what needs to be bashed and such.

I think the most difficult thing would be knowing which characters you need with you for specific zones. Meaning 1 chanter, 1-2 clerics with ress, 1-3 warriors, ect. Don't halfass it. I can lead most zones with barely any people and complete them, but is there chance of massive spank? yes.. So usually I won't do a zone unless I know I can crush it, so everyone will at least have some fun, and we won't spank wasteing hrs on a cr.
Examples would be: Always take 3 warriors to manscorps. That is the # YOU NEED. 4 is even safer, but 3 is very doable. 2 is halfassing it and you will splat in most cases. Things like this you need to know, and understand.

Rokub

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Malacar says 'And Isma wonders why he is universally hated.'
Jurdex
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Postby Jurdex » Tue Sep 24, 2002 3:54 am

Keys to leading and doing it well.

1) Know what you're doing.

a) Know the classes. If you don't know what every class can do and how it will make the zone go much easier, you should probably spend time learning each. The best way is to exp with a variety of classes and learn about them, ask others about them.

b) Know the zone. You should know the keywords, the key placement, how to do the fights and how to cr yourself from the zone you're doing. If you don't, make sure you have people with you who do. You're ultimately responsible for every group member's eq. Asking someone to walk you through it is very helpful.

2) Be confident.

a) No one wants to see the group leader stutter or give up or hesitate. It leads to indecision and a general feeling of "I know this better than this newb" attitude. Not good.

b) Don't be afraid to tell people to shutup and listen or to do whatever you say. I find myself joining other groups and the people in the group don't respect the leader and don't listen. Make them listen. They'll respect you for it. If they don't, find someone who will. A lot of times spanks happen because leaders say stuff, but folks miss it because they were spammed by others or missed the gsay cuz the leader didn't use caps when explaining things.

3) Know how to give directions.

a) Type it out, generall on the *same gsay line* how to do each fight. Then enter it several times. That way if someone was afk and they quickly scroll back they can easily find the directions. Also, if all the instructions for the fight are given on one line it lets others understand the fight better.

b) Be able to type. If you have trouble typing, you'll generally have trouble leading unless you're with experienced folks.

4) Have fun. Less folks will group with you if you're efficient but not having fun.

5) Never let pride stand in the way of success. If you have to ask for help or advice, do so. Even if it means talking to or asking help of someone you might not like.

6) Don't afk unless you have to. Don't rely on people to do assigns. Don't try and chat while leading unless you're really good at multitasking.

7) Never bring Verarb. He just lures Barbazus on your group or aggros pit fiends.

8) Say how you're distributing eq if you're a new leader. Unless you have an already solid following, you should always say "handouts or bidding." And try and not let folks who don't deserve to win, win. Ifthey have 2 eldritches, don't let them bid eldritch if it isn't for someone in the current group. (It helps you out in the long run.)

9) Any coins in that zone are yours to loot cuz you lead. I don't like leaders who lead to claim eq, though. (Unless they do it rarely and have a set group of followers who don't oppose it, and if they oppose it, ask why and don't hold it against them, unless they're a twink like Rylan who just wants to bid on stuff cuz it "matches")

10) Always mudmarry the hottest elf on the mud.

That is all!

Dornax
Jurdex

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The Raven of Wisdom

Est Sularus Oth Mithas
"My Honor is My Life"
Wargo
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Postby Wargo » Tue Sep 24, 2002 5:06 am

First zone I led: Jot invasion
Second zone I led: Jot invasion
Third zone I led: CC
First Brass trip: under 40 mins
First SF trip: under 1 hour

Just goes to show that you don't need to learn to lead. If you got it, you got it. If you don't, you don't. Don't try to lead when you are not ready. You will build a bad rep that way. Do it when you know you are ready. Image

Yssilk
Ambar
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Postby Ambar » Tue Sep 24, 2002 8:11 am

Ambar still misses her shammie partner Image noone quite has it like me n my Orc Image

hugs brotha Rok

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Ambar -= Beloved Matron =- Crimson Coalition
Moja
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Postby Moja » Mon Oct 14, 2002 11:44 am

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First of all, I hate you.
Secondly, I have to admit after years and years of dying mightily that this actually does work quite well.
1996.
.
.
.
Twyl group-says 'nuk east'
Twyl group-says 'Die Thanuk!'
Twyl group-says 'we revive you in a minute'

Some things never change.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That has got to be one of the funniest posts I have ever read.

I am still somewhat of a noobie to this game. I lead XP groups evey time I log on because people just want someone who does not kill them too much and can make stuff happen. I am starting to get into zone groups and am learning what is needed. An overkill is much better than a spank especially when starting out. (safer too)

I have asked vetran players why they fol me in groups and am told that my groups are fun. I do not know if this is my personality or it's just fun to get with someone who does something instead of sitting around the fountain all day.

I do know one piece of knowledge I have realized: Thais is a game to me and I play for fun so there is never any reason to get all uptight about stuff. If we can't have fun, even seeing the twisted side of our own death, then why play this game. I do not get paid enough playing to make it worth my time so it had better be fun!


Silly Dorf



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Silly Dorf

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