Evils, leading, the blues

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Wobb
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Evils, leading, the blues

Postby Wobb » Tue Oct 15, 2002 1:21 am

You know, I try to lead and be as generous as possible.

I've never claimed an item in a zone lead, ever.

Tonight i try to lead something, and before we even get going, all i get asked is are you claiming the item?

Well of course I am, everyone knows I'm after it, and sometimes people deserve a turn.

If that's how evils wanna be, then fuck it. You would rather not zone, not help each other out as I have tried by example...enjoy

Find someone else to lead.

I'm going back to following and just complaining when I get screwed over. I'm sure you all missed that.



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Wobb
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Wargo
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Postby Wargo » Tue Oct 15, 2002 1:35 am

Don't give up! Try harder! That's what I did!

Well, what I usually do before claiming an item in the zone is to lead it multiple times. Then at the end of a trip, claim the item for the next trip. Usually works out fine this way unless someone comes back from a long vacation and haven't been following me Image

So far, I have claimed a diamondine, a mithril bastardsword, and the vermillion sleeves. Haven't gotten much problems Image

Yssilk
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Postby sok » Tue Oct 15, 2002 1:41 am

or do multiple zones. example lets say you wanted 1k headband. it kinda suck to help do 1k and leader claim item, but if u do tf & 1k. u can claim 1k and it's not a big deal.
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Postby Baikalisan » Tue Oct 15, 2002 1:55 am

the problem wasnt that he was claiming the item, the problem is that it is a zone with 3 peices of eq. one of them VERY sought after and a rare load, which would be the one he wanted to claim. Of course ppl are going to have a problem with this Image

but yssilk and sok have good ideas maybe try to incorporate those in your quest to obtain claimed items!


*hug*

Dont give up there are plenty of us out here still to maim and kill!


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Baikalisan Terrorforge- Valsharess Elg'Caress - Orbdrin D'oloth

Ellana tells you 'i WISH he was the energizer bunny. all i'd need to do is take out the batteries and duckpond him'
Turxx
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Postby Turxx » Tue Oct 15, 2002 2:11 am

the leader is the leader, if you lead you split how you see fit, fck the whiners, who even cares? sometimes its going to suck to be you, thats just the way it goes
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Postby Tesil2 » Tue Oct 15, 2002 2:11 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Wobb:
<B>You know, I try to lead and be as generous as possible.

I've never claimed an item in a zone lead, ever.

Tonight i try to lead something, and before we even get going, all i get asked is are you claiming the item?

Well of course I am, everyone knows I'm after it, and sometimes people deserve a turn.

If that's how evils wanna be, then fuck it. You would rather not zone, not help each other out as I have tried by example...enjoy

Find someone else to lead.

I'm going back to following and just complaining when I get screwed over. I'm sure you all missed that.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What ever happened to the "evils are such a close-knit group" ??? Oh...it never really existed...you people bitch more that goods do any day....quit your whining about eq splits/handouts and get a life.....
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Postby Todrael » Tue Oct 15, 2002 2:33 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tesil2:
What ever happened to the "evils are such a close-knit group" ??? Oh...it never really existed...you people bitch more that goods do any day....quit your whining about eq splits/handouts and get a life.....</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Flames are not allowed. I suggest you stop posting, Tesil.

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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
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Postby Rokub » Tue Oct 15, 2002 3:23 am

I think the lead it a bunch, then claim the item is the best way to do it.

Btw, don't post your complaints as a leader, it just makes yourself look stupid, suck it up, and keep playing on.

Rokub

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Malacar says 'And Isma wonders why he is universally hated.'
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Postby kiryan » Tue Oct 15, 2002 3:29 am

didn't you make a big deal over gsay the boot before today about whether the leader of a FP trip was gonna claim the bow if it loaded?

and fyi, i was one of the highest ptesters at level 46 2 months ago, still trying to get a bow.

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where ara you my rittle raabuuri
Tesil2
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Postby Tesil2 » Tue Oct 15, 2002 3:39 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Todrael:
<B> Flames are not allowed. I suggest you stop posting, Tesil.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I suggest you know what you are talking about before YOU post...that wasn't a flame.
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Tue Oct 15, 2002 3:49 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tesil2:
<B> I suggest you know what you are talking about before YOU post...that wasn't a flame.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kiaransalee:
We will not define what is flaming or not other than the broad "if it turns personal rather than a discussion on topic, then it is likely flaming"</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tesil2:
<B> What ever happened to the "evils are such a close-knit group" ??? Oh...it never really existed...you people bitch more that goods do any day....quit your whining about eq splits/handouts and get a life.....

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



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Cherzra- "My only innate is max 10 evils on"
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Postby Yayaril » Tue Oct 15, 2002 3:51 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Turxx:
the leader is the leader, if you lead you split how you see fit, fck the whiners, who even cares? sometimes its going to suck to be you, thats just the way it goes</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So it would be perfectly alright with you if someone just got finished leading jot invasion and then claimed all of the gear for him/herself? Hey, the leader is the leader- screw those damn whiners!



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-Yayaril
Todrael
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Postby Todrael » Tue Oct 15, 2002 4:09 am

Thank you, Xisi.

Tesil: First off, I said nothing about "knowing what you are talking about." I made a suggestion that you not post further, as your current line of posting was, in my opinion, a flame.

My first reaction to it was anger. I was upset with you and the way you spoke. Since your post was not directed at me, nor affected me in any fashion, I analyzed my feelings on the subject and came to the conclusion that, rather than being a flaw in my own perceptions of the situation, it was highly likely that the material posted was stated in such a way as to be as inflamatory as possible while contributing nothing to the discussion. Thus, I made my suggestion.

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-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
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Postby kiryan » Tue Oct 15, 2002 6:20 am

i agree with todrael

and yaya you could be upset buti believe thats the mud rules, leader of group splits however he wants even if its keeping it all. your reaction can be thats not fair whatever, but your action should be not to follow the leader again. short of taking that action your pretty much whining.

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where ara you my rittle raabuuri
Tesil2
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Postby Tesil2 » Tue Oct 15, 2002 8:48 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Todrael:
<B>Thank you, Xisi.

Tesil: First off, I said nothing about "knowing what you are talking about." I made a suggestion that you not post further, as your current line of posting was, in my opinion, a flame.

My first reaction to it was anger. I was upset with you and the way you spoke. Since your post was not directed at me, nor affected me in any fashion, I analyzed my feelings on the subject and came to the conclusion that, rather than being a flaw in my own perceptions of the situation, it was highly likely that the material posted was stated in such a way as to be as inflamatory as possible while contributing nothing to the discussion. Thus, I made my suggestion.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And how different is my post from Turxx's....not very different.

Look at the facts....it has been said before that the "evils are a close-knit group"....but who does all the whining on here about eq splits/handouts....mainly evils.

As for calling it a flame....where is it? I directed my post at no particular person. Take a look at the other posts...."fck the whiners"...."Btw, don't post your complaints as a leader, it just makes yourself look stupid"...."screw those damn whiners".

So don't try to single my post out and say I was flaming while ignoring the rest.



[This message has been edited by Tesil2 (edited 10-15-2002).]
Corth
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Postby Corth » Tue Oct 15, 2002 8:48 am

Being an optimist, I see this as a wonderful opportunity to find something for all those admin gods to do. Currently they are wasting away doing intermittent google searches on player names. This thread, thankfully has given them a purpose! Us players are confused as hell. What is and what isn't a flame?!?! Well, an elite team of admin gods are needed to answer this age-old question. We need a document, similar to the old guild regulations on Toril, which will provide the answer to this important question. Can a statement be a flame if it is directed at the evils as a whole as opposed to an individual? Easy! Look up the answer in Article III Sect. b, para. (3)! Such a document would go to unbelievable lengths in promoting civility on the BBS!

Corth

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Goddamned slippery mage.
cherzra
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Postby cherzra » Tue Oct 15, 2002 9:07 am

I think the problem may be that if you (almost) never lead stuff, people are much less likely to come along to a zone just to 'give' you something, whereas if you lead (semi)regularly, nobody really cares if you claim something every now and then, at least I never get any comments when I do.

Leading sucks, since you have to put up with SO much crap (gathering a group, people leaving, finding new people, people not paying attention, people messing up, constant tells, have to pay 100% attention all the time, assignments, whines, splits, etc). To just do it once to net yourself an item and then not again, may feel cheap to others.

This is different for rares (finders keepers), but the above is my assessment of the situation. I don't know what happened and I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but that may have been what people felt.
Myre
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Postby Myre » Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:07 am

posting on the bbs is kinda like masterbation...instant gratification that leads to no long term benefit..then people taunt and bitch about the fact it was done...

in my OPINION Wobb's big picture point is much stronger than what plane or who leads who...Wobb is and always will be one of my absolute best friends here...so i'm biased so take it at face vaule..

course now it's time for the follow up, where someone will have a 4 page documentary to type out on the 'political correctness of posting: we do have a voice'
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Postby Daz » Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:13 am

Find Your Voice
We all have opinions,
and most of the time, have little trouble voicing
those opinions and beliefs in casual conversation.
But what if we must speak up when it really matters?
Do we have a voice to which others will listen?
Are we willing or able to speak the truth,
in spite of what it might cost us?
It is not necessary to use honesty as a weapon,
to brutalize others with the truth.
But it is also not acceptable to be silent
when you know there are words that must be spoken.

Children have such voices.
They have not yet learned how to "filter",
to "edit" their speech for propriety.
Consequently, we tend to laugh at the honesty of children,
even when we might be blushing with embarrassment.
But it is this honesty,
this inner truth and innocence
that we need to cultivate within ourselves.
The voice begins within.
Learn first to be truthful with yourself.
If you can speak the truth to your soul,
that you know why you are living your life,
why you make the decisions you make,
live the way you do,
understand that things develop over time,
but you must always be cultiviating the ground in which good seeds will grow,
then perhaps you have found your voice.

After the finding comes the practice.
It will be one of the most difficult things for you to do,
to speak up.
To say that someone is wrong or hurtful,
or ill advised.
Remember to be gentle.
It does no good to batter someone to the ground with your words,
even if they do carry truth.
Truth and gentleness go hand in hand,
even though the message may be difficult for others to hear,
the delivery can be soft,
and even subtle.
Practice speaking softly.
Notice that when you begin to speak softly,
others will lower their voices in order to hear you.
Then, when you have the attention,
use that moment to speak the truth
in your new found voice.
See how the truth of your words fills the pause of silence,
and stops the progression of non-sense.


Lesson 57 - July 23, 1999 - Find Your Voice


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The wardens of the cage disallow all commands except say, petition, project and help
Daz
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Postby Daz » Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:13 am

I just couldn't help myself :P


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The wardens of the cage disallow all commands except say, petition, project and help
Myre
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Postby Myre » Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:49 am

Don't say I didn't warn you when hair grows on your palms Daz.
Sarell
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Postby Sarell » Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:53 am

Comes back to that discussion about how some people will whine that they went to tia and didnt get an item I guess...

For me leading is dang hard, but it is by no means not rewarding in itself. If you do lead lots for sure you should be rewarded with a extra nice bit of gear for your efforts or to identify you as a leader, I believe. Same if you are a kick ass and consistant warrior, etc, etc also however.

My two cents... had a bit of trouble getting an elvenkind this wipe, yan walked in on a group (can't do much about that), crashed twice, didn't load a kazillion times, interestingly on the time it did load I wasn't leading a regular crew but more of a rag tag bunch. I wanted the cloak, but I don't claim / do handouts where the group is mostly rag-tag. So I suggested the cloak should only be bid between elves in the group, there was about 5, lo and behold everyone was furious, many people who had never even done AP before *boggle*, I said F it, open bids, then won the cloak out of 8 bidders :P. For me wanting to bid on a major item like that to trade etc. is pretty wussy. I like to have been to a place to get items, and I like even better that someone who leads a zone has a pretty good chance at getting a top item from that zone. I think what happens lately since it is hard to get full groups of friends is you end up bidding for it, and then since it is yours giving it to the person who deserves it, shrug.

On the other hand, if you do a zone, are your wants and need just as great as anyone else in the group? Yes from the perspective of rights, however equipment on sojourn has very little to do with this, and is more of a trophy as to what you did. So leaders should have spanky gear, and kick ass players should also, I can't think of a better person to be wearing that isha than Dhurn for instance imho (I don't know many evil folk btw).

Anyhow, end rant, remember we are all people and gear is just ansi on 'a huge cluster of 486 computers hidden deep in the desert' (So i'm told :P ). BTW, if I ever come across some dang spanky red gear it is mine :P ...including that armor I found on a certain dwarf standing in the dead orc inn!

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Xisiqomelir
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Tue Oct 15, 2002 11:57 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tesil2:
<B> And how different is my post from Turxx's....not very different.

*snip* (oh don't worry, it'll be there Image)

As for calling it a flame....where is it? I directed my post at no particular person. Take a look at the other posts...."fck the whiners"...."Btw, don't post your complaints as a leader, it just makes yourself look stupid"...."screw those damn whiners".

So don't try to single my post out and say I was flaming while ignoring the rest.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kiaransalee:
We will not define what is flaming or not other than the broad "if it turns personal rather than a discussion on topic, then it is likely flaming"</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is this insufficiently clear? It seems fairly straightfoward.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Turxx:
the leader is the leader, if you lead you split how you see fit, fck the whiners, who even cares? sometimes its going to suck to be you, thats just the way it goes</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"the whiners", please note, are an entirely FICTITIOUS group of people. They exist solely for the purpose of Turxx's point. It is NOT personal to suggest "fck"ing those who are not even persons.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tesil2:
<B> What ever happened to the "evils are such a close-knit group" ??? Oh...it never really existed...you people bitch more that goods do any day....quit your whining about eq splits/handouts and get a life.....

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"you people" IS personal. Taken in context with your initial sentence it clearly means the evil population. This is personally insulting to me, as you see fit to accuse me of "whining" and offer your wholly unsolicited advice to "get a life". It is clearly inflammatory, and in violation of the guidelines Kiaransalee has posted.

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Cherzra- "My only innate is max 10 evils on"
Tesil2
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Postby Tesil2 » Tue Oct 15, 2002 12:18 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Xisiqomelir:
<B> "you people" IS personal. Taken in context with your initial sentence it clearly means the evil population. This is personally insulting to me, as you see fit to accuse me of "whining" and offer your wholly unsolicited advice to "get a life". It is clearly inflammatory, and in violation of the guidelines Kiaransalee has posted.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*big yawn*
cherzra
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Postby cherzra » Tue Oct 15, 2002 12:26 pm

I see Tesil's "making friends" again.
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Oct 15, 2002 2:49 pm

Not trying to defend Tesil here, but...

That stupid old philosophical question comes to mind, you all know the one, "If a tree falls in a lifeless forest and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" People can say anything they want on this BBS, but it takes a pool of pirahna rushing in to point fingers and make accusations before things start getting ugly. Nobody had to respond to Tesil's comment, and it would have slid by and nothing would have come of it... and odds are everybody reading it would have thought 'what a wanker for saying something like that' and known it wasn't true, but instead it has to be jumped on, dissected, stretched out, blown out of proportion, and flaunted for everybody to have to look at over, and over, and over again.

It's just my opinion, but half the time the people calling 'foul' are just as bad as the people making the original comments, because they seek out that spectacle associated with the continuation of a misguided, thoughtless, or otherwise meaningless ugly remark. If the people making the remarks are only looking for attention, then you give it to them. It's not a sign of weakness to back off and let something like this slide, he didn't really hurt anybody, his comments weren't really that inflammatory, and if everybody would leave it alone we'd all know who was the real flamer, instead of having primary flamers, secondary flamers, tertiary flamers and people who only egg it on.
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Postby Wargo » Tue Oct 15, 2002 3:08 pm

Poking one's nose into something not personally interested in CAN be inflammatory. Examples:

Evils posting negatively about a constructive justice thread = inflammatory

Goodies posting negatively about evil splits = inflammatory

Someone is trying to work on some issues that they truly care about. Anyone who is not related in the said topic posting anything negative or unrelated can be very annoying to the people trying to work things out to the point of inflammatory.

Any defensive post about an annoying post can be annoying and seen as inflammatory to the people trying to work things out.

Any logical post about why a post is inflammatory but does not really deal with the issue at hand can be inflammatory to the people trying to work things out AND to the people trying to annoying others.

Therefore, I'm flaming too, as well as half of people posting here.

Yssilk
P.S. Any evil who tries hard to lead deserves some credit. Because otherwise, we are just loose sand. I support you Wobb!
Nikelon
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Postby Nikelon » Tue Oct 15, 2002 3:17 pm

I know how off-topic this is, but I am feeling very reflective right now, so you can read my random posts :P

I rolled up Dizhes because I love the idea of having pets. I always missed that in Nikelon since I played a conjurer in soj2. I made Dizhes drow because I wanted to experience the legendary "evil side". What I found was a microcosm of the goodie side. Granted, I only reached lvl 16 or so, but generally there are fewer ppl and a higher concentration of higher lvl players. I remember logging on and being the ONLY player under lvl 35...and I was 11. There are nice ppl and ppl who ignore you; there are mothers like Ambar, friends like Zariana, old friends like Cirenina, legends like Todrael and Cherzra, and then the ppl who ask you where you are to shift to, but will never speak another word to you...even to help with simple questions. One really comforting touch was Lilithelle coming all the way to DK gates just to give me a dagger!

The reason I stuck Dizhes back in the closet and played Nikelon again was because I realized I missed the atmosphere of zoning. I have spent the last 1.5 years lvling Nike, and I wanted to be free of that long enough to do more quests, zone for new eq, etc. I get a really cool feeling knowing I just helped my good friend cr at 2:00 am...and I missed that interaction in DK where I was on my own and had to solo, and rarely saw anyone on my lvl (hence rare friends like Zariana :P).

I will eventually go back to Dizhes because I have so much more to experience with zoning as a necro with big casting pets...first though, I will have to become totally bored or disgusted with the goodie side...and maybe make enough friends from across the raceline to have someone to talk to when I am lvling in DK.

The whole reason I left Nike when I did was because every guild I had joined had disbanded and the only other guild with friends that might accept me was run by the one person on the mud that was still very angry at me. But now we are on talking terms and my friends who were lvl 50 have "lapped" me and now I have players my lvl to exp with :P

Anywho, I totally lost track of what I meant to say when I started typing, so disregard this post.

-Nikelon/Dizhes

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Nobody's perfect.
I'm nobody.

[This message has been edited by Nikelon (edited 10-15-2002).]
Wobb
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Postby Wobb » Tue Oct 15, 2002 5:04 pm

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

To shed a little light, my post was a mix of emotion and resentment.

I should have clearly stated what happened, but I don't like to drop names and this wasn't projected at anyone specifically, because I got the same response from several people who I asked to go.

I haven't played this far in any wipe of Sojourn, and I think the dynamics of the mud and the influx of EQ are getting to me. I've never had a 50, and certainly never had a 50 with a high level alt to play. I tried to stop being a whiner and get out and lead some zones (including said zone) to see things from the other side of the coin, but also to equip guildmates and friends. Hell no one goes to a zone for nothing, eventually you want something out of it.

It really can be difficult, as Yssilk and Cherzra mention. I'm as guilty as the next guy as far as greed etc.., but until I started leading did I see the error in my ways. People have been skirting around the issue, and some have flat out said it, "the playerbase needs to drop some of their own personal issues for the betterment of the whole".

Good points were brought up, I haven't led this particular zone enough to claim it, the people who have followed me before (through thick and thin) didn't have any complaints, it was more people who do not regularily group with me (me being the leader that is).

There are two things I'm hoping come from this.

1. Players drop some of their personal vendettas on other people, our numbers are too thin. If someone really bothers you, reexamine why they bother you. I refuse no one when they ask me to group, provided I have the time to put in. Even my closest guild mates have heard me say things like "Man i'm NEVER following HIM again" etc...and it's wrong. Hehe 2 days later I'm up and grouping with the person again. But some people out there, have these long standing vendettas, lets drop them.

2. Gimme Imix bow! snicker

take it easy folks


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Wobb
"If you ever need a quick pick-me-up, just stick my balls in your mouth." --Chef, South Park

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