Capital Punishment

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Musi
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Capital Punishment

Postby Musi » Thu Oct 17, 2002 12:15 pm

Since we have some raging debates going on, I just figured I'd throw another iron in the fire...

How do you guys (and gals) feel about capital punishment? Kill those that have wronged us? Or rehabilitate them? Just for an example...

There was this girl I knew. (my sister's best friend for 10 years, who was also like another younger sister to me) Anyways... her parents had a messy divorce because the dad was cheating, he stopped, his wife then had an affair with a sleezeball and got pregnant. So she was bounced back and forth till the court gave the mother and her b/f custody. The b/f beat on her, cussed her, destroyed any self worth she felt.

She ran away and her mom would call our house to try to find her. She got kicked out of school, and sent to afternoon school (where all the "bad" kids go). So she hangs out with the wrong crowd, and starts drinking and smoking pot. (not to excess mind you)

Ever notice sometimes something will catch your attention and you don't know why? One night in March 2001, a news story about someone being shot in (we'll call it) Willow Grove caught my attention. Later that night, my dad asks if we were watching the news. We weren't so he and my mom came downstairs, got my sister's attention, and told her that her best friend had been shot to death. The image of my sister collapsing in despair will haunt me forever.

So what happened that night? We'll probably never know the truth. The little bastard changed his story 28 times. From what I've pieced together it's something like this.

He probably wanted to have sex with this girl (she was 17 at the time) and when she refused, he shot her. (That's different from the drive-by story, and the playing with the gun and it accidently went off story and all the others)

(From the roommate's deposition)It should have been premeditated murder because a week before the murder, he got the gun and ammo from his dad's house. The roommate came in and the guy got the gun out (my sister's best friend hated guns) and loaded 1 bullet into the chamber. He aimed at his roommate and pulled the trigger. No shot. He spun the barrel again and pointed it at the girl, and he shot her point blank in the chest. Her last words as she was falling were "Oh my God. You shot me!" That's about the only thing that didn't change in the stories.

The roommate wanted to call 911, but this @$$hole wouldn't let him, so it took a concerned neighbor to call the cops. She died at the hospital. What really tears up my heart is, she probably knew she was going to die.

Now, this a-hole lied this many times, got the gun a week before the murder, deliberately loaded and pointed the gun and pulled the trigger. What was the charge? 2nd degree murder! Did he plead guilty? No! How many years did he get in jail? 3. 3 F***KING YEARS FOR MURDER?! Who's not to say he won't go out and do it again? If I went out and killed my stalker, I'd be in jail for 500 years! Image It's just not fair, especially to my sister. She's just not been the same since her best friend's death. I'd give anything to see the happy, outgoing sister I used to have. Image

Any thoughts?


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Musi "Desperate to get ress" Ailis
Abue
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Postby Abue » Thu Oct 17, 2002 12:31 pm

People like that need to get the book thrown at them. Our justice system is really fucked up in that respect. Like you said, someone like that practically gets away with shit like that yet a couple of years ago I got arrested because I had an outstanding $10 parking ticket from a few years before. I simply paid my $10 and they let me go. WTF!!!
I do have this to say about the death penalty though. Our justice system is as I said Fucked up. I think to many innocent people would die to capital punishment. Death is so final. A dead person can't have there sentence repealed. Also the way that justice is delt out in this country isn't exactly equal. Anybody remember O.J. Simpson? The fucker killed his wife and everybody in the nation knew it. Yet the fucker got off the hook because he was a football player who had a shit load of cash. Yet if Noke went out and did the same thing he would get the death sentence. My biggest beef though is that to man innocent people could be sentenced to death. Put them away for life. Isn't it enough to have them become someones BITCH for the rest of there lifetime?
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Postby Zagaz » Thu Oct 17, 2002 12:47 pm

First of all I am really sorry that your sister had to suffer through losing her best friend in such a situation, and that you and your family have to deal with the repercussions.

In an ideal world, Capital punishment would not be needed, and it would be an effective deterent that would rarely be used.

I am a resident of Canada, and we have not hd capital punishment for several decades now. Now I can say that I do not beleive in capital punishment, that we can rehabilitate all but the most ciolent of offenders. The ones who cannot be rehabilitated should be locked away forever, hardly any chance for parole, with very little comforts a normal citizen would have. I have never had to test the strength of my convictions, as no one close to me has been murdered so I do not know how my beliefs would stand up to that.

This can be a touchy debate, so let's keep it civil folks, and try not to get too personal.

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Postby Daz » Thu Oct 17, 2002 1:37 pm

I think we should implement hanging for murder, and give the cops 6 feet of rope.

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Musi
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Postby Musi » Thu Oct 17, 2002 2:04 pm

I wish that we could just rehab everyone, but some people are just not going to change. For some criminals, I think they should get what they dished out (rapists getting raped in prison, murders being murdered the way they killed their victims), but I read an article about how some guy was jailed for something rather petty (like bounced checks or unpaid parking tix) and he became hardened while in jail to the point that he wanted to commit more serious crimes.

I don't know what to think of that really. Our jails are getting full to bursting. I don't think people that do minor crimes (bouncing checks or parking tix) should sit in jail Image Pay a fine and be done with it. DUI, murder, and rape I DO feel strongly about (each one has hit really close to home. lost an uncle and good friend to DUI and I'd rather not talk about rape Image ).

I am not God, so I can't say whether the eye for an eye thing still goes, or if we should still turn the other cheek. I do feel, however, that the really evil people (Dahmer, Son of Sam, John Wayne Gacey, Charles Manson, etc...) should be put to death. They knew they were doing wrong, and they did it over and over. At least, Dahmer got his.

I guess my sister is a much stronger and better person than I am. She says that killing the guy that killed her best friend won't bring her friend back. I still think 3 years for what should have been 1st degree premeditated murder is not enough! Image

Abue, that totally sux about being thrown in jail for a $10 ticket Image What is this country coming to?

I was in class when the OJ verdict was read and someone in another classroom screamed "How the f**k is he NOT GUILTY?!" At least they got him for the civil lawsuit Image But still he's a murderer (not just murder, but descimation of their bodies Image) and he's free Image Like a joke someone sent me...
Shortest books of all time...
Oj's search for the REAL killer



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Musi "Desperate to get ress" Ailis
rylan
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Postby rylan » Thu Oct 17, 2002 3:14 pm

I think that some people aren't worth the effort to try to rehabilitate... people convicted of first degree murder, serial killers, terrorists etc. The problem is the current system allows so many appeals that the bastards sit on death row eating up my tax dollars for something stupid like 10 years before getting the needle or whatever. There should be 1 appeal thats done in the first year after sentencing, and thats it. You lose, then chop chop. Bet the money grubbing lawyers would be pissed at that tho.. less money (my money from taxes) from all the appeals. Stuff like hangings should be brought back too.. this lethal injection isn't suffering enough. Electric chair isn't bad tho.. thats gotta hurt.
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Postby Zagaz » Thu Oct 17, 2002 3:26 pm

The over population seems to be a result of Mandatory Minimum Sentancing for non-violent offenders. I have been doing some research between calls this morning. i have gone to the Canadian Department of Justice web site, and there are oodles of reports on this very subject, and they quote different reports and statistics that show the innefectiveness of the MMS, compared with rehab programs. it shows rehab to be more cost effective to the taxpayer. But I digress, this is about capital punishment. All I can say is I beleive it is wrong for us as a society to allow the state to choose life vs death for individuals. Perhaps I am too much of an idealist.

Can anyone get statistics or reports showing that capital punishment is an effective deterrant? If I understand things correctly, each state has the right to choose to enforce capital punishemnt. How many states use capital punishement?

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Postby Ambar » Thu Oct 17, 2002 3:27 pm

Ever wonder why they swab the injection site with alcohol before they put someone to death by legal injection??

People on death row have a legal right for so many appeals which is total BS .. also they are allowed this insanity plea?? puleeze ... They sit and sit on death row for years!!

Eye for an eye?? Why not! Let the parents of rape victims have at the attacker! Or muder, or .. whatever!

Why did i spend the night in jail after a speeding ticket when people who leave a nine month old baby alone day after day while they are at work for months instead of hiring a sitter are let go??

Justice system in US SUCKS .. it's all about rights ..criminal should have no rights!!

gooo me :P

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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Oct 17, 2002 3:35 pm

I've always felt that there should be different kinds of trials for certain kinds of crimes. In the crimes ruled truly heinous, such as serial killing, multiple counts of mutilation, torture murders, etc, etc, etc, in cases where there is NO ROOM FOR DOUBT as to the murderer's guilt, I believe that there should be a trial to determine that it is one of these heinous crimes/no room for doubt cases, then a trial to determine sanity, then a mandatory sentence of death with no appeal.
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Postby Musi » Thu Oct 17, 2002 3:42 pm

I hate knowing that I'm paying for someone to work out, get good meals, watch tv, even get a college education in jail! Image There was a time when I wasn't making any money, I lost 30 lbs in 2 weeks because I was starving, and I actually considered turning to crime so I'd have a place to stay and a meal to eat Image I didn't tho Image

I'm not sure if the death penalty is a deterrent. Or at least, lethal injection isn't really. A shot in the arm to put you to sleep, another to stop your breathing, and the last to stop your heart. Why can't they mix them up a bit? Oh, that would be too inhumane Image

I can't understand why they would swab a person's arm before a lethal injection. Would it matter in 15 minutes (or however long) anyways?

Why should the states that DO have the death penaly care how humane some of these animals die? (I mean the violent ones) The chair is humane enough for someone that murders Image So what if their eyes pop out while 50k volts shoots through them. I bet it wouldn't skim the surface of the pain they inflicted on their victims, their families and friends Image

Ashiwi, I totally agree about if there is ABSOLUTELY no doubt that they are guilty, why shouldn't they fry? I'd rather pay for one bullet, than 15 years of meals, etc... for someone with a million appeals Image

I'm sounding so vindictive this morning. If I had more time, I'd go take care of the displacer beast. I still have a settle to score with him Image


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Musi "Desperate to get ress" Ailis

[This message has been edited by Musi (edited 10-17-2002).]
Jegzed
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Postby Jegzed » Thu Oct 17, 2002 3:55 pm

Only theocratic third world countries practice the death penalty.. The civilized world does not.

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Postby Dulzuth » Thu Oct 17, 2002 3:59 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Musi:
<B> So she hangs out with the wrong crowd, and starts drinking and smoking pot. (not to excess mind you)

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*Sigh* What is up with these pot heads! I mean, marijuana isn't actually directly responsible for a single death, if you're not stoned off your knocker than you're a helluva lot more capable than being drunk, and to top it off it grows anywhere! I mean... If it doesn't kill you, make it illegal! =) JK, actually if you smoke pot once in a while there's no problem with it imho, pot heads aren't violent and you can't really get physically addicted to it like alcohol. Yeah so you smoke it, 1 joint and you're high vs smoking a pack of cigs a day, not too bad for you (no preservatives either).

Well to be constructive, I vote capital punishment for all 1st degree murder regardless of age/color/religion (satan told me to do it) etc... 1st degree murder implies some kind of planning or just doing it out of malice. What that ar$ehole did though deserves at least lethal injection though. =)

ps. sleep deprived so if this doesn't make sense, just pass along =)

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Zrax
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Postby Zrax » Thu Oct 17, 2002 4:44 pm

The most hillarious thing in the world to me are people who are against the death penalty but pro abortion.

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Postby fildur » Thu Oct 17, 2002 4:46 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Musi:
<B>
Ashiwi, I totally agree about if there is ABSOLUTELY no doubt that they are guilty, why shouldn't they fry?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

the reason for punishment should be crime prevention, right? if death penalties were the solution the us would have one of the lowest crimerates in the world. thats not the case.

then i get this little itch when im reading this thread, it asks me "whos the real murderers?" speaking as a person that has had a close friend killed by thugs in the street and 5+ friends killed by hard drugs. whos the real murderers? drug lords and the ppl supporting the druglords. who suports the drug lords? cia has a verified history of supporting drug lords in afghanistan, colombia, thailand etc. WHOS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CIAS ACTIONS? us congress, us senate and the president of the us. im not supposing we killem all, but id really say that they all got blood on their hands, their actions is causing thousands of ppls deaths due to drugs world wide. if i were to use the rethoric of george w bush id say, the drug lords has declared war on the rest of the world, what we have to do is to eliminate the governments of countries that support or let drug lords live there. i dont know if thats the way to go about with it.

what im really saying, and note i write what i write, not to flame anybody, just to speak the truth, ppl we love are gonna die, some of them are gonna die of unnatural causes, yet some of theese from violent causes, we left behind should do one thing: live on. sure it takes time to understand that someone is gone, whats most important is that we should keep theese ppl alive in our hearts, think of the good times we shared, but mainly live on, think of thge bad times we shared, but most important: we gotta live on. it takes time, thats the main concern, seeing ppl getting punished _wont_ get yer dead back, and, i promise, it wont make you feel better. we need to mourn, and come to the right side with our losses. someone killing the killer wont help you to do that. then ofcause if id see anyone who was a murderer of a friend o mine, i wouldnt chicken out of the inevitable fight, that would prolly be till im knocked out or hes dead, but thats not the point, the point is, we have to take care of the living, musi, you must be at your sisters side, and help her handeling it (note im not saying you arent), this is the main concern, the living./fil
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Postby Nilan » Thu Oct 17, 2002 4:47 pm

Having or living with a death sentence is horrible. I do not think that death sentences should be imposed.

And people can be rehabilitated.

Nilan

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Postby moritheil » Thu Oct 17, 2002 4:51 pm

I think resources are limited and thus not everyone can be rehabilitated, as a practical matter, not as a moral matter.

Further, I think US criminals need to have rights, because it's obscene how many people are wrongly convicted. Personally I think this really needs to be looked at. Currently the system is like "well we have these inmates but we're not 100% sure they are criminals, so we have to be somewhat lax in punishing them..."

End the uncertainty and you can administer harsher punishments. Until then there will be mad protests.

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Postby cherzra » Thu Oct 17, 2002 5:22 pm

I am SO in favor of corporal punishment. If I had my way, criminals would be flogged publicly in town squares, and the more brutal ones would be hanged, drawn and quartered.

Anyone in favor of being lenient to criminals has A) never been a victim of anything or B) is naive and gullible.

Punishment is deterrent. Look at Malaysia and similar countries: if you so much as toss your garbage on the street, you're gonna PAY. On the other hand, you can cuddle your criminals, let most of them go on probation, and sentence even the most brutal serial killers to only 4 years in jail (3 years with good behavior) like we do here in Holland. I tell you from experience: the cuddle and hug approach doesn't work. Criminals laugh their asses off and law-abiding citizens are constantly living in fear, disgusted when the police doesn't even show up anymore for things such breaking and entering. Except if you defend your property and hit the burglar, you're in deep shit then and YOU will be the one going to jail.

I'm a liberal and peace loving guy, but if you cross the line, you do it on your own accord. Everyone who commits the same crime more than twice, should instantly go to jail for 5 years. I don't give a crap if it was only spitting on the street twice, LAWS ARE LAWS, break them and PAY. Any sentence > 10 years should be turned into death. I really don't feel like throwing in even a cent to pay for the enormous amounts of money it costs to jail those people. Did you know that jailing a person costs around 350$ a day? I'll spit on their graves before I support a criminal.

I can't wait for the day when the death penalty is reintroduced here. Hang them, behead them, quarter and draw them. Put their heads on stakes and impale their bodies in the street, as a warning for others.
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Postby Baikalisan » Thu Oct 17, 2002 5:36 pm

There are several different kinds of crimes out there, as we all know. The problem I see with the way it works right now is its the same punishment for EVERY one of them.


If you go rob a house, you go to jail.
If you go rob a store at gunpoint, you go to jail.
If you kill your ex wife/husband cuz you dont like the fact that they are a slut, you goto jail.
If you secretly have a baby and leave it to die/rot in a trash can, you go to jail.
If you rape/kill a child, you go to jail.

About the only exception is when they say: I dunno what came over me, i was scared, or in a fit of panic and acted on instinct, im insane put me away.

An eye for an eye ? Would this work, in theory yes, but in actuality no.
People would find a way to get around it, or pick it apart so that new laws have to be added to it to make it 'fair for the little guy' after a while it would be just like we are today..only alot of the politicians would only have one hand, or be missing fingers...

Rehab is a nice thought....
It works for a pitiful few....
The majority come out of jail, and either find themselves unable to cope with todays society. They soon begin to crave the safety and famaliarity of prison. They do something stupid to break probation and get sent back. Some of them are just, for lack of a better word, evil. They want to kill, they cant wait for their time to be up so they can get out and do it again. Put on a happy face long enough and they'll be out.

Death Row is a joke.
You go, you sit there.. some a year b4 their lawyer figures out a way for them to get out on a technicality, others several years tied up with appeals in the end to die a old man/woman of natural causes. We all pay for them to sit there. We all pay for them to eat/drink/read/learn... they are free to do anything they like so long as it can be done within that jail cell.. Ok, i admit 1 out of 1000 is sitting there and is innocent.. locked up 20 years ago for a crime they didnt comit, a rape or murder which can now, with dna testing, be proved wasnt the man who commited the crime..

Do i agree with Capital Punishment? Yes
Do i agree with People sitting on death row for years? No
Do i think that if the judge or jury sentence you to death that it should be carried out immediatly? Yes
Do i think that you should be able to live after you have taken the life of a child/mother/brother/father/friend? No
Do i think that that one innocent guy sitting up there is reason enough to take a second look at our system before we kill him? No

My friends 12 year old son summed it up nicely. If your big enough to do the crime, your big enough to serve your time. If your time cuts into me or mine, then its time for us to cut the line.


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Postby Jegzed » Thu Oct 17, 2002 5:47 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Baikalisan:
Do i think that that one innocent guy sitting up there is reason enough to take a second look at our system before we kill him? No</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This was the worst, most cynical and EVIL statement I've ever read at this forum.

This is the same attitude that Hitler had. "Does not matter if we kill innocents, as long as we kill those we say deserve death."

I'm basically FOR capital punishment, BUT...

Killing innocents just because you don't want to pay for them to have decent enough lawyers is so utterly cynical it makes me sick to my stomarch. The US legal system is a joke if you are poor or black.



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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Oct 17, 2002 6:53 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
<B>Anyone in favor of being lenient to criminals has A) never been a victim of anything or B) is naive and gullible.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen Cherz. You're a little more radical than me, but I can agree with you on the foudation of the argument. Add to it one more...

Anybody who wants to be lenient on criminals who commit violent and brutal crimes might think they can be rehabilitated and released back into society, but would probably never agree to letting them move next door. Oh sure, people can gasp and moan about how everybody can be remodeled into an asset for society, but it's doubtful the people gasping and moaning will ever have to live in the really high crime neighborhoods.

Twenty years from now you want this D.C. sniper moving into your school district? Somehow I doubt it.

Oh, and Nilan... David Berkowitz is coming back up for parole soon. Do you think if you offered him a spare bedroom in the same house with your mother/sister/girlfriend that he'd be more likely to get his ticket out? He's been in there a long time, surely he's changed by now. He's even gotten religion.
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Postby Gort » Thu Oct 17, 2002 7:08 pm

Sad fact, it costs more money to execute someone in America than to keep them in prison for life.


IMHO, if you're in prison, you don't get to exercise/lift weights, and while I have no problem with non-violent offenders learning a trade, violent ones I'm not so sure of.

Currently we're making stronger, faster, smarter criminals in our prison system. We should be making slower, fatter, dumber ones. Make the cops job easier.

On capital punishment, one appeal, taken anytime the accused wants to, then off to the executioner.


Toplack

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Postby Corth » Thu Oct 17, 2002 7:32 pm

I have had mixed feelings on this topic over the years and I think I lean now towards being against the death penalty. I don't feel this way for any moral reason. I just believe it isn't effective. Gort is correct, it is more expensive overall to execute a criminal than to warehouse them for life. The reason is the lengthy appeals process mandated by the Supreme Court. This long process also creates a situation where the vast majority of criminals sentenced to death are never in fact executed. That means it doesn't really deter people cause even if you do get sentenced to death, it likely won't happen.

Corth

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Postby thanuk » Thu Oct 17, 2002 7:52 pm

You know who should get the death penatly? Cannibals. Cannibals should get the death penalty. It seems like its all i talk about these days, but i still cant get over the fact that i saw a guy on the news who was up for parole, after being convicted of killing and eating another human being. Do away with the death penalty or keep it, whatever stops them from committing crimes, i see no real moral issue with killing a murderer, but effectiveness is more important than cruelty.
But if you do away with the death penalty for violent criminals, you need to keep it around for the cannibals. They must be weeded out.

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Postby moritheil » Thu Oct 17, 2002 7:56 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
<B>I am SO in favor of corporal punishment. If I had my way, criminals would be flogged publicly in town squares, and the more brutal ones would be hanged, drawn and quartered.

Anyone in favor of being lenient to criminals has A) never been a victim of anything or B) is naive and gullible.

Punishment is deterrent. Look at Malaysia and similar countries: if you so much as toss your garbage on the street, you're gonna PAY.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm in favor of punishing the evil. I'm just disturbed that in the US it's never clear that any given person in jail, or even on death row, is in fact the one who did the crime. If so, that's unjust. I've been a victim of crime, but I've also seen someone I knew wrongly accused, and that's no good either.

In Asian countries, yes, harsh penalties do guarantee minimal crime. But, have you ever looked at Taiwan? With all their death penalties for multiple crimes, they still have governors assassinated (a few years back) and crazy stuff happening every once in a while. The death penalty alone is not a panacea. You must have effective policing and even sentencing in order to use it properly.

What would I like? Make absolutely sure that you have the guilty parties. This is the one thing I don't think the US spends enough on. Then punish them to your hearts content.

Fiat iustitia.

PS - I don't believe in the death penalty. I believe, rather, that we should spare no cost to ensure that the guilty are poetically punished.

Have you ever heard the Sublime song 'date rape'?

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[This message has been edited by moritheil (edited 10-17-2002).]

[This message has been edited by moritheil (edited 10-17-2002).]
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Postby Baikalisan » Fri Oct 18, 2002 1:42 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jegzed:
<B> This was the worst, most cynical and EVIL statement I've ever read at this forum.

This is the same attitude that Hitler had. "Does not matter if we kill innocents, as long as we kill those we say deserve death."

I'm basically FOR capital punishment, BUT...

Killing innocents just because you don't want to pay for them to have decent enough lawyers is so utterly cynical it makes me sick to my stomarch. The US legal system is a joke if you are poor or black.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok ill admit i worded that wrong and it could be taken the way Jeg took it..

My _meaning_ was different tho.

Should innocents die? No

but imho if one innocent man dies and 500 child rapists/rapists murderers etc etc die is it worth the one man? Most would say yes, some would say no, i would say it was worth it...

Unless i was that one innocent man.


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Postby Enduil » Fri Oct 18, 2002 2:18 am

The big problem is not the punishments or lack of punishment, the big problem is the guns. People can't shoot eachother as easily if they don't have such free access to guns.
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Postby Corth » Fri Oct 18, 2002 3:28 am

Yeah, I agree its a huge problem. We should outlaw guns. Everyone who abides by the law would hand over their guns to the police. And people with no respect for the law would, of course, keep them. That would certainly make us a lot safer.

Corth

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Postby Kasula » Fri Oct 18, 2002 4:41 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zrax:
<B>The most hillarious thing in the world to me are people who are against the death penalty but pro abortion.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
More hilarious than that is people who are against abortion but into the death penalty!
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Postby Kasula » Fri Oct 18, 2002 5:19 am

You people are sooo freaking evil!! Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth... if that was the law everyone would be blind and toothless! That law is freaking over 3000 years old, i hope as a society we have come further than that. Humans who commit crimes are still Humans!! One the greatest thing of being a human is the ability to change. Are you the same person you were when you were 10 or 18 or 25 or 30... Humans are not perfect! With the death penalty... your asking alot of inperfect people to be perfect. Do you people value human life at all? Truthfully, two movies that you need to watch... The Green Mile and the Shawshank Redemption. You people are some angery people... mom and dad didnt hug you enough when you were young? I would hate to cross you in a dark alley. I swear this is the product of corporal punishment... when you hit little kids you teach hate! You teach that violence solves problems... I have no tolerance for intolerant people. Go Hug someone cause you need it. :P
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Postby Ragorn » Fri Oct 18, 2002 6:29 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Nilan:
<B>Having or living with a death sentence is horrible. I do not think that death sentences should be imposed.

Nilan

Drow Assassin</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How ironic, assassin Image

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Postby Erthyne » Fri Oct 18, 2002 7:16 am

I'm for capital punishment...

The only thing that keeps me from actually going ALL for it though is there's always a chance of convicting the wrong person.

It would be horrendous to execute an innocent.

Murder/rape: no question asked, pleading insanity is bull crap, so @#$% that. Being insane doesn't mean you have the right to harm people and pay less as a normal person would. Once proven guilty, they should be killed. I only wish their death would be as painful as their victim's.
(That's my general view.. unless the victim or the victim's family/friends choose to speak up for the criminal in strange circumstances.. then maybe we can look into something less severe.)

Rapist are among the lowest scum on earth, nothing can be worse than getting raped. (Getting murdered is close though) child molester should be castrated.

Playing god or not, it's just fair- A life for a life...

Grrr...

Kasula:
Say... if a drunkard loser guy sodomized/raped you, and then raped/murdered your siblings and raped your mom and dad along the way and then burnt down your house... and tortured your pets to death, just for fun and just because he has the 'CRIMINAL IMPULSE' to do so...

Will you still insist to just throw that person into jail and have the tax payer pay for him for the rest of his life... just to gamble on the fact that he MIGHT change one day?

Enquiring mind wants to know.


ps. I would rather pay extra to execute a convicted rapist/serial killer, than to house him in a jail.

I have seen/read/heard too many injustice to feel compassionate towards people who deliberately set out to hurt others just because 'they have the urge to' or other BS like that.

[This message has been edited by Erthyne (edited 10-18-2002).]
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Postby fildur » Fri Oct 18, 2002 7:31 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
<B>
Anyone in favor of being lenient to criminals has A) never been a victim of anything or B) is naive and gullible.
*snip*
I'm a liberal and peace loving guy, but
*snip* </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

being oppoosed to death penalty has nothing to do with being lenient, anyone who takes that view is not very careful with the truth.

the main concern with the handeling of criminals would be to keep the crime rate down. as a matter of fact theres a larger rate of murder in countries that has death penalties. harsh punishment in general has not proven to lower the crime rates, most empirical evidence, surprisingly, points in a different direction. what does help though is to try to find ways to rehabilitate the criminals and make them work in society, this has been proven empiricaly. the downside is that it cost money, yes.

then ofcause, populistic politicians everywhere make use of ppls (preferably less educated, ilovemycarandmybeer-kind of ppl) fear and misconceptions, the main ones are usually connected to criminality and immigration, just to make the uninformed vote for them. sometimes they succeed, sometimes not, but it makes it understandable why pim ate the bulet. he shouldnt have tho, cause it gave the populists the argument.../fil
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Postby gordex » Fri Oct 18, 2002 8:47 am

Without reading all the posts, I'll just talk about the question at hand. I am all for capital punishment. I personally think a number of "offenses" should be punishable by death. The top 2 that come to mind are murder and rape (although I have MUCH more devious things in mind than death. Perhaps I should roll an evil?).

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Postby ssar » Fri Oct 18, 2002 11:49 am

The main problem is all the bullshit that goes on which prevents the REAL truth and REAL guilty people from being properly and promptly tried and sentenced.

Most legal/law/lawyer/justice systems on earth are so complicated and out of control, that the INTENT of what laws are actually FOR is being lost and slowly eroded to a mere husk of a memory of the "right thing to do".

But, it doesnt seem like any of that will change, in our forseeable future.. sigh.


Anyways, there should be more suitable punishment for the harsher crimes, without a doubt.
Death sentance where they are killed very soon after, and other methods should be options for the worst.

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Postby Abue » Fri Oct 18, 2002 12:06 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
<B>Anyone in favor of being lenient to criminals has A) never been a victim of anything or B) is naive and gullible.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is a big difference between being against the death penalty and being lenient on criminals. I think those people who would otherwise get the death penalty should never see the light of day again. However, with the justice system the US has today the death penalty is unthinkable. It is to messed up and biased. I live in a state that doesn't practice Capital Punishment and crime is delt with just fine. It is not a Holand type atmosphere. Crime does happen and it is delt with. It is still not perfect, but at least there is a chance for due process for people.

On the other hand you got people like the guy who sits in the cube next to me at my work. He is a convicted child molester. I have read his court records and it is horrible. Yet he hardly got any jail time. Mostly work program style of justice. He was basically just given 10 years probation. on the 11th month of the 10th year he was accused of molesting his two nieces. He even went to trial a couple months ago yet the sicko is still next to me working and he walks the streets freely. These people need to never see the light of day again. We are to easy on them. The death penalty though is not the answer.
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Postby Zagaz » Fri Oct 18, 2002 2:26 pm

I have avoided other threads that have been contreversial, but this is one I beleive strongly in. Go ahead an call me naive or ignorant or a wishful thinker.

My brother, older by 7 yrs, sexually mollested when I was younger. He also molested another yough girl. At the time he was maybe 17 so he went to a juvenile detention centre. He has been in and out of prisons for minor offenses for about 10 years or so.

He finally decided to take responsibility for his life and his actions and tuen his life around. He saw a psychologist when he was in prison and was getting hlep delaing with some addiction problems as well. He has been out for over a year now, he has a job, a place to stay and life is good. For awhile I did not trust hime, but tht was and issue of him making prmises when he was out of prison and then going back inside. I have forgiven him and have moved on with my life. I cannot speak for the other girl though. I hope and pray she has recovered from any trauma caused.

Some of you would deny prisoners the tools and resources to effectivley get rehabilitation. Let them rot away and forever be a burden to society. I totally agree with a previous individual who stated that people do change, but they want to have to change.

And in no circumstances would I support the death penalty. I like to think that despite the depravity of certain induhviduals. we can be civilized. I beleive in strict enforcement of sentencing. Providing the necessary tools and resources for prisoners to adjust to life in society. As well, prisoners once released should be monitored more closely, especially if they have a history of reoffending.

Ok, I hope that made sense, I spent an hour typing it between calls and reviewed it before posting.

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Postby Krogenar » Fri Oct 18, 2002 2:33 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kasula:
With the death penalty... your asking alot of inperfect people to be perfect. Do you people value human life at all? [LARGE SECTION OMITTED] ... I have no tolerance for intolerant people. Go Hug someone cause you need it. :P </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This one is too good to pass up! Image
We're not asking people to be perfect, we're asking that they not murder other people. As for being intolerant of intolerant people... well, that one speaks for itself!

I personally, don't believe in the death penalty, though I did when I was younger. I was much more vulnerable to the pathos story that started out this thread; someone is senselessly murdered, etc. - and we want to see someone else die.

I don't think the death penalty is a deterrent to crime, since I believe the best justice, is swift justice. It's akin to raising a child. If you tell the child, "Don't upend the garbage can, or else!" and the the child upends the garbage can - don't say, "Wait till your father gets home! Then he'll punish you!" ... that lets the child reason it through that since the punishment will be delayed, have fun now!

People who murder, generally speaking, are stupid. They can't be deterred by laws anyway. The high-brow murders (like Claus von Bulow) that you see in movies is rare. Very rare. So I don't believe its a deterrent.

Secondly, I'm a libertarian. I believe that the government should be very limited in what it can do to citizens. Since every government seeks to expand its powers beyond what was granted to it by the people (like the Federal Government's creation of an income tax), I don't think the right to kill citizens should be allowed to the government.

As for people changing in prison, it does happen. I was a reporter for The Daily Collegian, at Penn State University - and I did a feature story once on a nearby prison. It seems that in the past 10 years there had been 20 escapes from the prison! Well... it turns out that the technical definition of escape allows for some pretty un-daring escapes. Eighteen out of the twenty 'escapes' had been committed by institutionalized inmates who, unwilling to go on parole, decided to walk way from an outdoors work detail. They were denied parole, and they got to stay in jail! Some of them would send prison menus home, to their families, to show them how well they were eating. One of the escapees was so desperate to perform the minimum amount necessary to trigger the 'escape' law, that he ran half a mile down the road, and then flagged down a UPS truck, which then 'delivered' him back to the prison. Image Prison, it seems, offered these men and women the structure (and great food!) that their previous lives lacked. To me, waste is a crime. Some of these people are put in jail for non-violent crimes. If that's the case, then maybe they should be given more chances to contribute to society.



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Postby Krogenar » Fri Oct 18, 2002 2:53 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ssar:
The main problem is all the bullshit that goes on which prevents the REAL truth and REAL guilty people from being properly and promptly tried and sentenced.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree that our justice system seems to be overwrought and quite clunky at times. But it was designed to be that way. It was designed so that everyone who walks into the courtroom was innocent until proven guilty. This is because to the founding fathers, the worst injustice that can occur, is for an innocent man to be convicted. And as the severity of the crime (and the possible punishment) increases, the standard of proof increases as well. What this results in, is some obviously guilty people sometimes walking away with a slap on the wrist, or nothing. (O.J. Simpson is still searching for the REAL killer on the golf courses of America, no word yet on his progress.) But it also results in very few innocent people being punished unjustly. Most of the cases where people get off scott free (that shouldn't have) are usually the result of too little evidence, or shoddy police work.

And then there's the issue of juries. God help me, I'd never want to be tried by a jury of my 'peers'. I've seen some of these people when I was on jury duty myself. And I can tell you, they are a few hamburgers short of a 'Happy Meal'. These people are dull, and usually easily bamboozled. And the jury selection process also leaves a lot to be desired. Basically, each lawyer (the defense and prosecutor) get to ask questions of each juror, and can reject a juror for whatever reason they like. Since there's no way for someone to objectively determine what a 'fair' jury is, the best we can do is have the two lawyers each try to stack the deck as best they can, and hope it balances out. Image Anyone with an iota of intelligence can get out of jury duty.

"Yeah, my dad's a cop."
"Well, I was watching 'The Civil War' documentary last night and ..."
"I have a college degree."
"I read the newspaper every day."

Responses like these will get your kicked from a jury very easily - in most cases. I think the voir dire process (jury selection) should be reworked, and jury duty should be enforced - but only if they are willing to pay my salary for while I'm away, and they push the trial along quickly. I'd love to be on a jury, but I've got bills to pay! My last quotation is what got me kicked from jury duty! Image The vast majority of people throw the jury duty notices in the garbage, and claim they never recieved the letter.



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Postby Krogenar » Fri Oct 18, 2002 3:14 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
I am SO in favor of corporal punishment. If I had my way, criminals would be flogged publicly in town squares, and the more brutal ones would be hanged, drawn and quartered.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, Iraq is probably accepting visas, Cherzra! Image

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Punishment is deterrent. Look at Malaysia and similar countries: if you so much as toss your garbage on the street, you're gonna PAY.</font>


I have an uncle who works for Saudi America Airlines. He's been in their capital, and tells me stories that would make your hair curl on end. He's seen public beheadings and amputations. He says some guy comes out with a huge scimitar (no joke!) and they put the guy's head/hand/etc. down on the block, and everyone on the street stops, stares, (wHaCk!) and then goes back to their business. They have almost zero crime. I'm not boarding a flight there anytime soon. Cherzra, though, you can go if you like! They practice exactly that kind of justice there - and you're right, it is a deterrent.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>I tell you from experience: the cuddle and hug approach doesn't work.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree in many ways with what you're saying Cherzra. Can I ask you how you feel about tyrants? Like, Saddam Hussein, for example? Should he be coddled?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Everyone who commits the same crime more than twice, should instantly go to jail for 5 years.</font>


Whoa! You mean, like, violent crimes, or serious crimes, right?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I don't give a crap if it was only spitting on the street twice, LAWS ARE LAWS, break them and PAY. Any sentence > 10 years should be turned into death.</font>


WHOA!!! You can't really mean that.



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Postby Zagaz » Fri Oct 18, 2002 7:58 pm

It would seem that Cherzra would have us kill all criminals and have us all living in a brutal police state. citizens that break the laws would face harsh consequences. But worls leaders who break international laws would face no consequences, the Saddam's of the world would be free to rule with an iron fist without any chance of punishment for the brutality carried out by his regime.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

I always looked to Europe as being civilized and better off because of their social programs and becuase they seem to be a more benevolent society. I would hate the justice system of Malaysia carried out on a wirld wide scale.

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Postby thanuk » Fri Oct 18, 2002 8:09 pm

You believe people can change so there should be no death penalty...so what about animals? Dogs can change, they can be trained...so a dog that mauls a baby should be put into obedience training right? wrong. At some point you realize that the life of 1 miscreant being is not worth the time and effort of a whole society.

I forget who posted about their brother, but i am glad he has managed to reform his life. Sadly he represents a very small portion of the prison community. At what point does the life of the repeated murderer/rapist/child molester become worth more than the life of the child he molested after he was released from prison the first time? What do you tell the wife of a man who was murdered by a convicted killer, after he was released because he had "reformed"? We aren't talking about nonviolent criminals here. I dont support the death penalty for drug dealers or users, or anything of that nature. I support the death penalty for violent criminals. As all of those in defense have said, we are a civilized society. People who commit violent crimes obviously do not fit in to our civilized, non-violent society. Murder is not a "mistake". I refuse to believe it ever happens in the spur of the moment, unless it is done with ones bare hands. If you are carrying a gun, there is a reason for it. You havent made a single mistake, but a lifetime of mistakes that leads you to carrying a gun on your person at all times, which leads to you murdering someone. These crimes are not isolated incidents in the otherwise normal lives of people. These are people who have lived a long time outside the boundaries of law. And if you have to murder someone and go to jail before you wake up and realize that this is the wrong way to do things, then it is too late for you. You have chosen your path. Why should anyone obey laws? Why shouldn't i go rob a bank and kill the clerk? If i dont get caught, im a rich man set for life. If i get caught, i spend 5-10 years in prison and go on parole, any gambler will tell you those are good odds.
Violent criminals are not born in the spur of the moment, they are created over the years, and a number of bad decisions. The offender had many chances to decide to reform himself before society forced him to do so in prison. By then it is too late, you made your bed, now lie in it. The main problem with this country is that people are no longer held accountable for their actions. If even our justice system will no longer hold them accountable, then who will?


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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Oct 18, 2002 8:53 pm

Oh, I wanted to add that there is a great deal of personal experience backing my opinion on this matter.

In 1997 I worked for the parole board of Austin, TX. The recidivism rate for violent offenders runs MUCH higher than it does for those who commit petty crimes. Often many of these people have it much easier in prison than they do out of prison, and too often they will commit crimes simply to get a free ride back in. The recidivism rate for people who commit the truly atrocious crimes runs incredibly high. There are other forces driving the truly twisted besides just a lack of impulse control, and their desire is NOT to return to prison, but only to satiate a need they have to do the brutal things they do. Of course, the release rate for these types of criminals is low, but it does happen.

I have not researched recidivism rates in years, anybody out there know the recent statistics for this?

Many people know of my experiences in the realm of child molestation. It is all well and good to say they got help and have recovered, but for God's sake please do not ever, EVER leave your children alone with them. There is a drive behind the sex offender, especially the child molester, which never truly goes away, no matter how much help they get, or even how much they despise themselves for their own actions.
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Postby Gort » Sat Oct 19, 2002 6:49 pm

I don't think rapists should be killed, they should just be buggered by a syphilitic grizzly bear. The only problem is finding a syphilitic grizzly, and getting past PETA.


IMHO

Toplack

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Postby moritheil » Sun Oct 20, 2002 12:50 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ssar:
<B>The main problem is all the bullshit that goes on which prevents the REAL truth and REAL guilty people from being properly and promptly tried and sentenced.

Most legal/law/lawyer/justice systems on earth are so complicated and out of control, that the INTENT of what laws are actually FOR is being lost and slowly eroded to a mere husk of a memory of the "right thing to do".

But, it doesnt seem like any of that will change, in our forseeable future.. sigh.


Anyways, there should be more suitable punishment for the harsher crimes, without a doubt.
Death sentance where they are killed very soon after, and other methods should be options for the worst.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I rule the world, Mogr will be chief of police!

rar Mogr!

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Postby Zungar » Sun Oct 20, 2002 2:26 am

Have you ever tried to find a parking space in downtown Washington D.C. on a weekday? Now THATS Capital Punishment!


Zungar "She driiiiives me crazy...ooh ooh" Eye Gone
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Postby Mikayla » Mon Oct 21, 2002 3:44 pm

dear if we did that, we would be killing gormal every other day Image

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Postby vezasee » Mon Oct 21, 2002 5:29 pm

I firmly believe that some people CANNOT be rehabilitated, perhaps only a small crossection of our prison population. I also firmly believe that our current prison system is more likely to escalate a crimanals antisocial behavior. i believe that a large group of our prisons population can be rehabilitated and should be.But I also believe that punishment and/or rehabilitation should be judged on a case by case basis. Blanket statements or generalization is going to let people abuse the system or fall through the cracks. Our justice system needs some major reforms to let those that can be rehabilitated have the best possible chance. Capital punishment should be reserved for the most heinous of crimes when there is an absolute certainty of guilt. I also believe that temporary insanity is a crock of human offal. We as a society give to much leniancy to the insane. but again it is on a case by case basis.
Capital punishment has not been proved as an effective deterrant but I think some of us would sleep easier knowing that those lowest pieces of horse dung will NEVER hurt another person again. I fear this post is muddled and may not effectively get my viewpoint across but it is the best i can do at this moment. Take my opinions how you will.

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