xp or zone? duuuuuh

[cherzra]

For some simple people:

Whenever you're doing xp, ignore anyone who's trying to put together a zone group, or tell them flat out you don't want to come bacause you don't want to stop doing stupid dime-a-dozen XP.

Then next time when you're looking for help with something, be it a quest or zone, maybe you'll find nobody willing to help you either. Or maybe you'll log on another day and find out that almost no evils will be playing for another 2 month streak.

Wondering why? Look in the damn mirror. Morons.

[Snurgt]

Sorry! I just didnt feel like doin AntFarm again!



------------------
Snurgt take no prisoner.

[Zagaz]

I guess this is targeted to the 40 and above evils. As for me, a 29th lvl cleric, I would probably not get asked to do zone, so boring xp it is for me until I am zoning level.

No need to be so rude either, some people prefer the xp group they are in at the moment, be it the people they are with or whatever, and would not feel like committing a lot of time at that moment to an actual zone.

------------------
Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.

[Ashiwi]

I'll go zoning with you Cherz!

[Nedle2]

you trollies need more halflings on your side....the world is much nicer with 2 or 3 halflings by your side =)

nedle the halfling chanter

[sok]

2-3 halfings would fill my belly nicely. bring some bbq sauce.

[moritheil]

*comf cherz* I've had this happen before.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zagaz:
<B>I guess this is targeted to the 40 and above evils. As for me, a 29th lvl cleric, I would probably not get asked to do zone, so boring xp it is for me until I am zoning level.

No need to be so rude either, some people prefer the xp group they are in at the moment, be it the people they are with or whatever, and would not feel like committing a lot of time at that moment to an actual zone.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree that there's no need to be rude. But Cherzra hasn't singled anyone out. He's just venting his frustration. And imho, it is kinda rude to screw over 11 people who need you to zone, just to continue xp with your 2 or 3 buds, when you've *ALL* been invited to group, and all plan to stay more than the necessary time (Yeah, that happened a few times.)

------------------
Daz group-says 'rofl, moritheil is the mcdonald's of death'

[Treladian]

I've noticed the problem from the other angle on the other side of the fence: Some casters don't turn down zone groups and as a result they keep dying and not being able to get the exp they lose back before dying again. Yeah, it can suck not being able to get a group going, but it also sucks having your scaler lose it in the middle of the zone.

------------------
You fire a black-shafted elven arrow to the east at Gormal's pet goat with masterful shooting that does lethal damage!
You receive your share of experience.

[cherzra]

Evils can only get 1 zone group going, if 5 people decide they would "rather continue doing xp" it means no zoning for anyone. The other people then usually log off.

[Sarell]

You can't make people go zoning :P If people want to sit in a room full of bright magenta blinking ansi that is their perogative..

...however I certainly agree with cherz' sentiment, I find it perplexing that so many folk would rather exp than zone. Possibly it explains why we have such a top level heavy playerbase.

So...to further my previous rants... downgrade ship! upgrade everything else!

------------------

[Kallinar]

Don't downgrade ship!! I am still trying to get all my newer characters to upper level zoning status!!!

Don't go puttin nasty ideas in the gods heads Pat..i'll have to spank you

Kallinar..its magically delicious!

[Fura]

I think almost everyone will agree that exp is easier than zoning. It takes less thought, less typing, less alertness.

Now, when my shoulder goes out, it's so much easier to get an elk, add it to my edit-menu spellup list (thanks, Arishae!) and go do exp, using buttons and the edit-menu to keep things moving. I don't use it for zoning because it's slower than typing and not as flexible.

I also don't go zoning if I have a sinus headache, if I'm making supper, if I'm playing a game with my son, if I'm on the phone, etc. I can do exp and alignment work, but if I were to join a zone group I would be harming them by not being my best.

I know the evils' playerbase is smaller, so one person sitting out can really hinder a zoning group. But it really might be for the best...

[moritheil]

http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000941.html

Vote early, and vote often!

------------------
Daz group-says 'rofl, moritheil is the mcdonald's of death'

[Zoldren]

to the point

people understand if you have rl stuff and cant go

just as an evil its hard to get groups together sometimes

either xp or personality conflicts are the big problems

just because you group w/someone doesnt mean you have to talk to them

group with them for the "greater good" if you'll pardon the expression for lack of a better one...

slimys right
if people dont zone others log off so when someone else comes in an hour or 2 latter to fill the spot they see nobody on and log off themselfs... buzz kill all around not just for the person buzz kill was ment for

and telling someone no i dont wana zone or follow xyz he sucks just are silly reasons

i follow anyone no matter how much i hate them, or think they suck as a leader, unless tooo busy to do anything execept hit afk and leave again

problem == time differences x exp only x personality conflict / lack of players == no zone

most of which could be avoided and its very stressful for both those who like to lead and those who like to just zone

for those who like to get eq and those who just like to go

just remember dont get mad over the eq its just ansi, try not to get mad at the people.. after all everyone does have lives, and yes we have just as many mud problems as we do rl probs


------------------
MoM-D

[Ambar]

Pinky, THAT is why i love ya sweetie .. you are such a good friend and nice person Your wife is one hell of a lucky girl

Jen plays to zone ... thats it .. i love group dynamics .. i love a lot of people, and I love to have fun .. I don't necessarily play for the eq or levels but they are nice benefits... I play for you guys, cause I like your company and I like to challenge myself by playing fun classes (god i LOVE enchanter!! carpal tunnel who??



------------------
Ambar -= Beloved Matron =- Crimson Coalition

[Jegzed]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ambar:
(god i LOVE enchanter!! carpal tunnel who??</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

F19 - F12 glance the primary tanks.
F5-F8 scale them..

What else is needed..

And telina rules, cause telina in group = BLUGMO POWER!



------------------
/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition

[Ambar]

err gtt

glaces all tanks and rogues

gt glances first tank ..

f2 scale tank .. f6 scale 2 tank .. f9 haste first rigue .. f10 second ...

giggle

as i said carpal who?? im too lazy to get it :P

------------------
Ambar -= Beloved Matron =- Crimson Coalition

[Teyaha]

er yeah.

You tell warrior 'wanna help me do some xp, i'm sick of being 46. we can two man smoke'
Only45+WarriorON tells you 'i dont xp anymore'


so when you say that, forgive me if i dont jump at the chance to go zone. been in the 45+ for a year now, thanks.

[cherzra]

I think I'm level 70 by now, so excuse me for not wanting to level you.

[Teyaha]

then if you're not wiling to take time to help folks who need xp, dont expect them to drop everything to help you zone. it's a two way street.

[Zoldren]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Teyaha:
<B>er yeah.

You tell warrior 'wanna help me do some xp, i'm sick of being 46. we can two man smoke'
Only45+WarriorON tells you 'i dont xp anymore'


so when you say that, forgive me if i dont jump at the chance to go zone. been in the 45+ for a year now, thanks.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

if you played your 45lvl charachter for more thant 5 minutes you would still get invited to zone, and you probably would have leveled

in 1 year any char could solo 45-46

and so basicaly your saying... i need xp so come xp me then i will zone with you, no no tell your group they can wait till i level.. i think not

------------------
MoM-D

[Daz]

I get tons of XP zoning! Sadly, the 'X group-says 'where's daz' - Y group-says 'daz dead' - Z group-says 'rofl, putz' sorta cancels it out.

I wish there was a fun-meter that could replace XP. And before you say it, prestige doesn't cut it.

------------------
Gormal group-says 'shut up before i stab you in the face with my cock'

[Teyaha]

dont be absurd, zoldren. this problem existed a long time ago. you can even ask krolb.

it was near impossible to get enough evils together to do xp when zoning was in effect. no one believed me for months until krolb started his invoker and he saw the same thing.

it hasnt changed, and it has always been a pain to get someone to go with me to do OTHER than ship xp, which sucks ass for an enchanter. hence why i'd like to play but i just dont anymore. (add to the fact there are at least two to three other 46+ chanters on and yes, i can be on for a few hours and not be able to get anything started or be invited to anything)

[Ambar]

I dunno teyaha in six months (maybe(probably) less)I managed to level an Ogre shaman to 50 and a now in like four, a drow enchanter to almost 48 and a myriad of others to 35+ and that's not hardcore playing ... You have not been on actively for how long?? Then in the time you played you bitched and moaned about how overworked you were as an enchanter (by the way it isnt THAT hard .. or wait maybe i just love the class?)... really you needa PLAY before you can say how bad things are .... Bringing Krolb into a discussion is just silly :P he has more lvl 50's than prolly anyone on the mud :P (and he doesnt even read the boards anyway)


Also .. attitude is 100% of the problem .. *I* personally NEVER have grouping issues and I am a total *W*itch! But I don't whine or complain, I just enjoy myself, do what I'm told and do my job well (pat me) and enjoy the peoples comapny I am with *shrug*

But thats just me *peer*

-----------------
Ambar -President and founder of the Ambar haters club-

[This message has been edited by Ambar (edited 10-23-2002).]

[Teyaha]

well ambar, you dont have carple. hopefully you never have to deal with it, but if you do then you'll understand.

and it's infinitely easier to level an enchanter as a second character than as a first. i'm sure your enchanter is better decked out than mine has ever been, which allowed you to solo much like ossis and other chanters could, but that i could not.

i was also an early recognizer of the good old boy's network that was the hand out system, that those who called me whiners only later complained about themselves. hypocrisy rules this game, even more than everquest or DAOC. it's fun to watch for me, though.

[cherzra]

I've seen 2 new evils who leveled to 42 and 47 over the past 6 weeks, and yes they are both spellcasters. Guess what? They go zoning, because they aren't too busy complaining.

If you ever got off your butt and started playing instead of complaining about how tough you have it, you might actually get somewhere too.

Don't want to go zoning because I don't want to level you to 50... that's a pathetic excuse if there was ever one. Imagine everyone who isn't level 50 telling me that: "No I dont want to zone, because you don't want to level me to 50 on smoke first." If you don't want to zone then don't, but don't be surprised when you get left out of eq and everything else.



[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 10-24-2002).]

[Kegor]

People should do what they want to. It is nice when people comprimise thier own plans to help others, but that should not be expected of them, nor held against them if they don't want to. I would say 7 out of 10 times most people will drop an exp group to go zone because they would rather do that. On the other hand, zoning is a lot easier as a group of level 50's rather than a group of 42-50, so I can understand why people might want to stay at thier safe exp spot, rather than chance losing a level or the like. Some people would rather hover around level 46 and get spanked all the time trying to do outragous things with the group they have in a somewhat never ending cycle tho.

Its all about perspectives I guess, and most people have them, as frustrating as thiers might seem to yours. We deal and move on.

[Zoldren]

just because 2 enchanters are online that are higher lvl does not mean you will not get grouped, i frequently group 2-3 enchanters when they are on and free....

lvls are are also not a factor
i take people who are NOT EVEN lvl 30 to zones so because you dont have dscales/46 does NOT mean you wont go zone

how do you think we all went zoning b4 dscales??

i do think its funny though alot of times people less than lvl 40 will zone easier than those lvl 40+ because of xp like cherzra said @ top.......

------------------
MoM-D

[Jorus]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B>I get tons of XP zoning! Sadly, the 'X group-says 'where's daz' - Y group-says 'daz dead' - Z group-says 'rofl, putz' sorta cancels it out.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's even worse when this happens while leading zones!

Where's Jorus? Oh, he got lost again and died. Putz. Damn rangers!

Regards,
Jorus

[Ragorn]

This mud is full of a whole lot of people telling each other what they should and shouldn't do when they play. For the love of christ, let people play sojourn the way they want to play sojourn without trying to guilt trip them because THEY aren't helping YOU have a good time.

If someone does tiamat and drops 30 corpses and wins the scepter, and they want to trade it, then who are you to call them names for it? Oh boo hoo they're a great big fat greedy twink, they shouldn't have bid it, someone needed it more, they didn't spend 16 hours doing tiamat to help someone else out. They're a terrible person, everyone shake your heads and click your tongues.

Oh no, someone didn't jump off their experience spot when you asked them to help you quest dragonscales. Oh that's definitely cause for blacklisting, name calling, and if you ever zone with them, you should make it a point not to scale them because they didn't put their life on hold when you decided it was time for you to get your spells.

Heavens, there's only one evil cleric online and he's hanging out on the ship trying to *LEVEL*. What's he thinking? We have 10 people over here who want to do something, and he's bottlenecking us. Let's all send him spam tells and write pissy board posts. He should know the evil playerbase is very low, what makes him think he can just go and do whatever he wants? The evils NEED him, man, sheesh.

Point being: Stop (all of you who do it) writing idiotic board posts trying to muster support against someone who doesn't put their life on hold when you come asking for them. Sojourn's a game, it's not a job. If the only evil enchanter online would rather pris spray rabbits in podville than zone with you, then that's YOUR problem and not his. The real problem is that you evils treat each other like dirt so you have no player base. Y'know the best way to ensure that player base stays at a minimum level? Insulting the evil core class players in public when they don't jump to your beck and call.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

------------------
- Ragorn
Rondandal tells you 'I take it your goal is to clash?'

[cherzra]

Didn't you quit? Lurk the board all you want but keep out of things you have no clue about. When the pbase is 20 people of which 14 are zoneable, and 10 people log off because 4 would rather be XPing than zoning, it means THINGS LIKE THAT ARE WHAT CAUSES THE EVIL PBASE TO SUCK. I know you like to believe fairy tales about how rude and unfair evils are, but keep them on your side of Baldur's Gate.

[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 10-24-2002).]

[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 10-24-2002).]

[Ambar]

No I don't have carpal tunnel .. and I don't want it .. It WAS a joke aimed toward you (not malicious intent just .. funny) I just never understood/understand what a person with carpal tunnel was smokin when he rolled a character that works as hard as enchanters do :P

Good old boy network?? HOW? This is my first time as an evil! Apparently you were evil long before me .. I dont whine .... I dont complain .. i do my job .. and occasionally i get handed items .. why?? see above ...

Enchanter being easier as a second character?? How?? Exp is exp is exp and mage tables are the same it is also my first shot at a mage ...... I just happen to be the one who loves the class as a whole .. do I solo?? Hell no .. I'm a group person ..

Decked out?? Sure with Ambar's eq *peer* (YES I swap out eq between characters).. Why?? Cause i ZONE endlessly :P Which goes back the original intent of the post ..

People comment on other's eq all the time .. so and so has this or that, so and so won that bid and he or she isnt even a class that can use that item .. SO what! they go and go an go and go to the zone .. only so many times you can go to a zone before you have all the eq that zone has to offer ... why not be allowed to bid on anything you want after that many times goin!


/Begin rant
I'm so tired of people whining and complaining! If you don't like the class .. don't play it .. if you want some piece of eq thats evil/goodie only .. write the damn zone! If you are tired of the outcome of splits .. lead the damn zones! Tired of being more poorly equipped than others?? ZONE! Eventually you WILL win the eq ...

Don't expect things to fall in your lap all the time .. you have to WORK for things! Somehow I was allowed into the *fold* .. I don't know how ... I am not a spectacular player, I don't lead (xp groups do not constitute leading:P) ... when asked about items I have to ask others or refer to my notes ... but I am a decent person .. I don't yell and scream when things don't go my way ... I help people whenever possible .. I look to better myself all the time .. I remember things and don't have to be told twice .. i ask people for help on how to better the way I play my class (Jegzed, Ssissiv and Sslarris in particular) ... shrug , maybe it is a combination of all of the above ...
/end rant and sorry but hadda vent

------------------
Ambar -= Beloved Matron =- Crimson Coalition

[Malacar]

I made the enchanter when I didn't have carpal. I now have it, and retired my enchanter.

That's a cop out saying 'go write the zone' etc. Some people just aren't capable of writing a zone. Period. So they rely on those that do. And if every single piece of request or feedback is continued to be labeled as a whine by the upper eschelon of players, I don't see how an area maker can possibly do it with the input of the playerbase, instead of a select few.

So please think about that before you label things as a whine. ANYTHING can be taken as a whine if viewed from a particular angle. And all you're being is insulting when you repeatedly say things like that. I know that's not your intent, Ambar, but it's how I perceive it. Nor am I taking it personally, I'm just trying to get a counterpoint opinion across.

------------------
Malacar - omg ymir!

[moritheil]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>For the love of christ, let people play sojourn the way they want to play sojourn without trying to guilt trip them because THEY aren't helping YOU have a good time.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heh rags... I thought u said u hated all religion.

------------------
Daz group-says 'rofl, moritheil is the mcdonald's of death'

[sok]

make a cleric they dont have to cast any spells.

Sok-Representative of the Lost Art of Non-Healing Clerics.

[Tanji Smanji]

Sok is a hitter who can heal himself.

------------------
How to go from Waelos to Weylarii.

Weylarii group-says 'oh shit! my penis is stuck in the toaster. afk'

[moritheil]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tanji Smanji:
<B>Sok is a hitter who can heal himself.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

so is kaln!

------------------
Daz group-says 'rofl, moritheil is the mcdonald's of death'

[Ambar]

No, not everyone can write a zone .. but abuse those that can!!

Upper eschelon?? O bleh! Why must the *haves* be the upper eschelon?? Perhaps they busted their asses to get where they are and it is pretty upsetting to hear how "hard" it is to get groups (i don't mean zone groups cause i know how difficult that is .. but people that say they don't get invited to group ...) to xp, etc ...

No it is not my intent to insult and if it seems that way then I'm sorry .. it's just REALLY frustrating to hear the same stuff over and over, how the *elite* only think for themselves, etc .. am i elite? no i don't think so .. i have just been very lucky and i group with some awesome, VERY patient people ...

We are taught as leaders (in the military) .. to change things, that nothing is ever finished and everything can be improved .. the trouble, then, is how to adress things so they get changed ... We are taught that if we have a complaint that we must also have a solution, that to complain without a solutions is fruitless ..

*shrug*

------------------
Ambar -= Beloved Matron =- Crimson Coalition

[Botef]

All I know is I'm only level 12 and I try to group every chance I get, although being so low its not often (Unless I'm with my companions who also group when possible) Only time I don't group is when I'm at work and would be frequently going AFK to deal with those blasted customers!

Grouping up and having a good time is what its all about, and frankly I enjoy taking a Kobolds head off once in awhile even if it gives me virtually no xp.

[rachaz]

I zone and Im only level 49.... FOREVER!

Rach

[sok]

rachez is a player? i thought he was a statue in the fountain.

[Ragorn]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
When the pbase is 20 people of which 14 are zoneable, and 10 people log off because 4 would rather be XPing than zoning, it means THINGS LIKE THAT ARE WHAT CAUSES THE EVIL PBASE TO SUCK. I know you like to believe fairy tales about how rude and unfair evils are, but keep them on your side of Baldur's Gate.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, I quit, and I get all of my information about the mechanics of the game from what people post. My impression is that many people are discontent with the way evils run the show. That's 100% player feedback, straight from the boards, my friend. Even in this very thread.

How many goodie players do you think this post will convince to turn evil? Do you believe that by posting this rant that you will either 1) increase the evil player base or 2) encourage more people to participate more often? Think for two seconds with a clear head cherzra, I know you're capable of it. You're chiding a player for not zoning with you, and by your tone, you're implying that it is every players responsibility to do what's best for the mud at all times as opposed to doing what they want to do. It benefits every player to get the casters their quest spells, and it benefits everybody to zone, but don't go singling people out because they'd rather do ship than jot. From your top post and your reply to me, it seems that you're pointing a thick green finger at one evil player and saying "YOU ARE THE REASON OUR PLAYER BASE IS LOW."

I know you're upset man, but really, this isn't a productive way to express it. You're shooting yourself in the foot =/

------------------
- Ragorn
Rondandal tells you 'I take it your goal is to clash?'

[Donuktanam]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by sok:
<B>make a cleric they dont have to cast any spells.

Sok-Representative of the Lost Art of Non-Healing Clerics.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

oh master can i be your disciple?

------------------
You stagger from a fearsome strike by the bloodlord,Ouch! another hit like that and youll have had it!!
FLEE
FLEE
You flee west
You flee east
The bloodlord sends your head bouncing on the floor..

[Zagaz]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by sok:
<B>make a cleric they dont have to cast any spells.

Sok-Representative of the Lost Art of Non-Healing Clerics.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pleas, O Enlightened one, show me the way of The Lost Art

I am about to get full heals, can't wait to cast them on myself, reserve the cure criticals for others dupes, besides, healing is WAAAAY over rated, downgrade healing!!



------------------
Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.

[moritheil]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
How many goodie players do you think this post will convince to turn evil? </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

going ebil.

Btw, Botef has the right of it! Smite!

------------------
Daz group-says 'rofl, moritheil is the mcdonald's of death'

[Ambar]

I don't know about the validity of THIS post making goodies roll evils .. but man it sure seems as tho this is happening more frequently ... been a recent influx of *new* evils on the nhc channel ...which imho is fine, even great! just a comment ...

Why are they so afraid to say who they are tho?? has a convo with one guy (seems very nice and knows me as Shalia so you know he is OLD school (snort)) who said he wasnt 'ready' for people to know who he is ... then was on as a baby Orc and found another guy I knew AGES ago .. is it that they don't want their guild to know?? or is it a certain person they are avoiding .. or are they just seeing for themselves how nice evils are *smile gooooooo go gadget evils*

I make no attempt to hide when I'm on as my druid .. i do tog anon just to avoid the flow of tells ... man she gets a LOT of tells

anyway as i said .. just a comment ... it may happen on goodie side, with them seeing an influx of *new* goodies ..

------------------
Ambar -= Beloved Matron =- Crimson Coalition

[Salen]

Touk tells you Jot Xp?

Tell Touk heh ok

------------------
emote Rescuepractice

[Zoldren]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B> Yep, I quit, and I get all of my information about the mechanics of the game from what people post. My impression is that many people are discontent with the way evils run the show. That's 100% player feedback, straight from the boards, my friend. Even in this very thread.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

this is just a straight up false statement.
not even 10% of evils are discontent "with the way evils run the show" if 100% where they wouldnt be playing evils would they? they wouldnt zone

i lead, i follow, i always do what i can for the good of my friends and those who need help doing what ever, in the end its always for the "greatter good" of the evils. and thats why dam near all evils do it. if they where so discontent nobody would help anyone else.

you obviously are missing alot from just reading here, there is much more that goes on in game you need to understand, so if you dont play evil, dont have evil friends, dont play at all, dont bother trying to understand evils or they way they opperate. because you will have no clue and only make people think badly about you and your ill-informed oppinions


------------------
MoM-D