How to deal with terrorist

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Jegzed
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How to deal with terrorist

Postby Jegzed » Sat Oct 26, 2002 8:04 am

In what looked like it could turn into a new September 11th, the russians showed a fine way to deal with terrorists.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/10/26/moscow.siege/index.html

I never thought I'd see Spetznaz as heroes Image

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Postby Guest » Sat Oct 26, 2002 8:40 am

The really near-sighted thing about this incident is what would have happened had they (the terrorists) succeeded in killing the hostages. Talk about your empty victories. It's quite clear they don't care one bit about the people (other Muslims) who are around them in these countries.

Incidentally, in the US a large contingent did 'charge' the buildings, trying to help the victims. Many of them paid with their lives. It may be a good way to deal with the terrorists in this situation (though if there were truly explosives in the amounts stated it was incredibly risky), but it's not always an option.

[This message has been edited by Iyachtu (edited 10-26-2002).]
Treladian
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Postby Treladian » Sat Oct 26, 2002 5:02 pm

The one thing that strikes me as flawed is that it seems the Spetznaz only got moving after the rebels started to kill hostages. Waiting to react in a situation like this tends to be rather risky and a misuse of the element of surprise in a building entry.

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moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Sun Oct 27, 2002 9:46 pm

I've heard the vast majority of injuries/deaths in the hostages were due to the gas the Russian Military/Police used prior to storming the rebels. Not gunshot wounds.

It appears someone didn't know their chemistry well enough. "Super Tear Gas" actually refers to a tear gas/nerve gas mix.

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Treladian
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Postby Treladian » Mon Oct 28, 2002 4:58 am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2365383.stm

And so we have flaw number 2 . . .

It sends a rather strong message of "Look what we are willing to do to our people. Imagine what we would do to you," to paraphrase someone's roomate, to terrorists but at quite a price.

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Kifle
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Postby Kifle » Mon Oct 28, 2002 12:17 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
<B>I've heard the vast majority of injuries/deaths in the hostages were due to the gas the Russian Military/Police used prior to storming the rebels. Not gunshot wounds.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

2 of the 117 hostages were killed from gunshot wounds. I would like to know what genius thought this one up, and whether or not the russians are planing on giving them to the terrorist groups to run their operation.

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Jegzed
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Postby Jegzed » Mon Oct 28, 2002 1:00 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kifle:
<B> 2 of the 117 hostages were killed from gunshot wounds. I would like to know what genius thought this one up, and whether or not the russians are planing on giving them to the terrorist groups to run their operation.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*Sigh*

The moment you come up with a better plan to stop 50 terrorists from blowing up a building where they have explosives set up, is the moment you are allowed to complain.




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Krogenar
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Postby Krogenar » Mon Oct 28, 2002 1:59 pm

http://www.nypost.com/news/worldnews/60741.htm

Well, the terrorist apologists have more material now! Of the 500 hostages that the terrorists held, 117 of them were killed by the nerve gas that the Russians flooded the theater with. This raises a few questions. For one, did the Russians do the right thing? Two, are we in any position to second guess them? Third, what tactics are permissible when dealing with terrorists?

Should we write off the lives of the hostages, and just storm in, and kill the terrorists? Or is negotiation a better alternative? Which policy is more likely to dissuade terrorists from taking hostages in the future?


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rylan
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Postby rylan » Mon Oct 28, 2002 2:08 pm

Unfortunately, it ws a situation where if they didn't use gas of some sort, the terrorists would've detonated their explosives and taken out the whole building, killing all of the hostages plus whatever troops were in there.
They obviously used the wrong concentration of the gas, and what botheres me is they didn't tell doctors what the stuff was, so they have no idea how to treat the people.
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Mon Oct 28, 2002 4:05 pm

Frankly, I'm not sure *they* know what it is. And some of that stuff may not really be treatable (of course, most gases are, but there are a rare few - mostly developed by the US - that aren't). Although I'd like to point out that, biochemical warfare treaties to the contrary, EVERY country has a stockpile of nerve gas reserved for situations deemed 'in extremis.' Terrorists shrugging off an armed military assault falls under that category.

Yes, this means that if such a thing were to happen in the US, or any other country you might be reading this message from, chances are some vile concoction of death would be loosed on the terrorists.

Do you feel OK with that? 'Cause I don't...

PS - Hm, I wonder if this is the fabled 'Blue'. That would explain a few things.

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Treladian
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Postby Treladian » Mon Oct 28, 2002 9:35 pm

"Should we write off the lives of the hostages, and just storm in, and kill the terrorists? Or is negotiation a better alternative? Which policy is more likely to dissuade terrorists from taking hostages in the future?"

Infiltration or storming a building to either quietly and or suddenly neutralize hostage takers by surprise is rather standard protocol in this kind of situations. The problem isn't that they assaulted the building or that they used a debilitative chemical. I somehow doubt that you can simultaneously flashbang many rooms in a theatre at once. It has more to do with what chemicals they used and the lack of antidote administered. Bad things are bound to happen when hospitals aren't told how to treat victims.

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You fire a black-shafted elven arrow to the east at Gormal's pet goat with masterful shooting that does lethal damage!
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moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Tue Oct 29, 2002 9:29 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Krogenar:
Which policy is more likely to dissuade terrorists from taking hostages in the future?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Be like Rome.

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You tell Ushug 'err... spankmistress??'
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Postby Guest » Thu Oct 31, 2002 10:51 am

As I'm currently living in Moscow, I feel the need to weigh in on this thread.

There are those who will say that the ends (saving the lives of 600 hostages) justify the means (gassing the theater at the risk that 117 hostages would die from exposure). This is entirely debatable, and given that the chechen terrorists were armed with enough explosives to level a square block - if you saw footage from inside the theater, you know what I'm talking about - there is some merit to the argument.

The more alarming aspect, however, is that the raid had been planned DAYS before it was carried out, and yet NO doctors were even consulted, let alone told "oh btw we're going to be gassing everyone with an opiate derivative, so make sure you have a huge stockpile of a counteracting agent on hand to inject the hostages as we bring them out." Beyond that, the Russian government refused for a considerable length of time AFTER the event, while people were dying from exposure (not everyone died right away), to tell doctors what sort of gas the military had used so that doctors could treat the patients and save their lives.

Now the Russian police have standing orders to round up "suspicious-looking" people and hold them until their identities can be confirmed. Which basically means that anyone who's skin tone isn't as white as snow is going to be stopped and, at the very least, harassed. I've already seen it happen.

I'm not one for supporting terrorism, having lived through (and lost people in) the WTC attack, having worked at Ground Zero of the NY anthrax attacks, and now having been within a few miles of one of the largest hostage-takings in history. However, the heavy-handed tactics of the Russian government which some would laud as reasonable counter-terrorism measures can only be supported if they're based in reason (rather than fear or prejudice) and if the government affords the world and, more importantly, it's own citizens some transparency as to those tactics instead of cloaking them in a soviet-era veil of secrecy.

No need to lecture me about my own government's practices, as I don't support them at all, and think they'll lead to more instability in the world than anything else. Just look at Russian-Georgian relations -- now President Pootie-Poot is saying that Georgia needs to be "pre-emptively" annhilated for harboring chechen "terrorists".

Feh.

--D2

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