Invokers and game balance...

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Ruhr
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Invokers and game balance...

Postby Ruhr » Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:03 am

Shevarash,

I'd be interested in hearing how the Invoker class contributed to game balance.

I didn't play on sojourn after the pwipe so I don't have much to go on, but it seems to me that a caster (despite the power of their spells) couldn't replace the damage done by monk(s) per round. So in effect combat would take much longer as the party would have to retreat etc, while the Invoker(s) went and memorized more spells...

Then what about those (many) situations where you need to silence the room during combat (e.g. City of Brass)? I'm not sure that many zones could be done in a timely manner under these circumstances.

I'm also curious regarding the downgrading of the fighter class in general. You may recall that the MUD was heavily tilted toward fighters, equipment wise. I thought it was pretty balanced over all, considering the number and strength of the relative mobiles.

I know that some spell casters were resentful of the fact that the majority of equipment was meant for fighter classes (but this is almost always the case from Diablo 2 to paper and dice RPGS, such as D&D 3E, Shadowrun, etc). At any rate, these casters almost always had fighter class secondary characters, so it didn't seem like a huge issue to me (aside from bidding gripes).

At any rate, I hope that some changes have been made since Sojourn2 closed (monks aside), especially given time constraints of people who work full time. If a zone will now take longer to finish (due to slower mob kill rates/extended memorization periods), then sleep loss and being late to work might become a problem for some people.
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Postby Treladian » Wed Jan 31, 2001 7:07 am

Well I touched upon it in another thread but I might as well toss in a few things from a player's perspective before Shevy reply.

First off, hitter eq got downgraded big time all across the board. That made us warrior types weaker in terms of damage done while casters weren't affected.

Next, invokers could hit MULTIPLE mobs with a powerful area spell and they got quite a number in their higher circles. Without the numbers, I can't compare the damage to a monk's against one mob, but that's still a lot of damage that's spread around the room.

Silence fights often were no longer needed since a warrior's shieldpunch could stun and disrupt a mob out of a spell so really big mobs just got shieldpunched a lot by the warriors if they were casters.

Finally, there's no reason for EVERYONE to retreat from the battle if just the nukers run out of spells. Once the 30 second prep time for mems was removed, casters would run out of the room when they needed to remem, then run back in and rejoin the fight once all their stones, heals, nukes, or whatever were back. This meant that invokers could quickly get back to spamming damage if they even needed to remem in a fight.

Trel
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Postby Tilandal » Wed Jan 31, 2001 7:47 am

It is hard to see how caster damage could equal that of a monk but invokers were a pure offensive class. The damage that was done was simply asstonishing. For example they got cloud a circle before sorc's. Invokers got most of the nasties sorc spells a circle before sorc's and in some cases 2 I think. Plus they got new nukes. Force Missles did just insane damage. I think invokers may have actually did more damage than monks.
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Postby Ruhr » Wed Jan 31, 2001 8:05 am

In D&D 3rd edition, wizards are the main damage dealers also. You should see the number of 6 sided dice they throw out to determine damage.

The difference is their area spells effect PCs also, should they be standing nearby.

Ultimately, however, it's the fighters who do the killing (hence the name fighter).

I guess it'll take some (painful) adjustments to get used to the new declawed fighter classes. *sigh*
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Postby Pheten » Thu Feb 01, 2001 2:42 pm

I couldnt help but respond to this one because it was one of my big gripes during soj2. Believe it or not invokers did in no way slow down a trip through say jot, or brass, if anything they made it go twice as fast with twice the ease. Silence fights? Forget them, more like if it nukes shield punch it and cast area affect spells till not even so much as a plant is alive in the room. In my opinon invokers made the game way too easy, walk into second gatehouse, toss a couple infernos and its over, most of the time maybe one, or no people died. Most of the high level zones became a joke towards the end when there were alot of high level invokers.. Anyway if you are afraid of being slowed down by their mem times dont loose sleep over it because you wont be.
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Postby Selias » Tue Nov 26, 2002 11:14 pm

bump

Looks like this was an issue months ago also
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Postby Daz » Tue Nov 26, 2002 11:53 pm

again, the seperation of the sorcerer class made melee useless.

invoker damage is disgusting, and the MR put in place to downgrade invokers mostly hurts other mages trying to fill in.

as an enchanter, i am riding the wave of overpowered mages, so far be it from me to complain. soloing dockmasters at level 31 is awesome. my barb warrior was able to solo a dockmaster at around level 40 something.
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Postby Yarash » Wed Nov 27, 2002 1:37 am

I guess I am badass, but it should be noted that many classes get area spells. Additionally, the casting of offensive area spells can be very dangerous. I've died a considerable amount of times by casting an area and something wasn't engaged for some reason and killed me.

As a side note, is it just me, or are these fighter/caster arguments similar to the pc/mac arguments?

- Mike


[This message has been edited by Yarash (edited 11-26-2002).]
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Postby Snurgt » Wed Nov 27, 2002 2:24 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Yarash:
<B>As a side note, is it just me, or are these fighter/caster arguments similar to the pc/mac arguments?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dont think so. I think most players realize the huge discrepancy between casters and melee at this point in the mud.
Its just a matter of figuring out what to do about it.

I liked hearing that the new zone has tons of MR and no missile shielded mobs.



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Postby Olamdir » Wed Nov 27, 2002 2:36 am

Aren't their damage dealing abilities balanced out by their lack of hitpoints and protection spells/skills?


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Postby Xisiqomelir » Wed Nov 27, 2002 2:53 am

I'd just say to up melee effectiveness. Any, some or all of the below:

-Better weapon dice

-More attacks per round

-More effective skills

Then maybe a 10%++ cut to area damage AFTER adding the above. (Straight cut, no linking magic damage to equipment or attributes, that's just bizarre)

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Postby torkur » Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:10 am

Daz-"invoker damage is disgusting, and the MR put in place to downgrade invokers mostly hurts other mages trying to fill in."

You summed it up perfectly, other mage classes CAN fill in for invokers, hence the problem. Everyone is a minivoker PLUS they have buff spells.

BTW, I don't think my level 49 invoker could easily kill a dockie solo NOW (gave up on it after dieing a couple times at lvl 45), my warrior at 46 can eventually but it takes a run or two, and my illusionist at level 38 turns down ship xp because I kill dockies for better xp solo while I'm half paying attention.
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Postby Daz » Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:31 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Olamdir:
<B>Aren't their damage dealing abilities balanced out by their lack of hitpoints and protection spells/skills?


Olamdir.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

level 37 enchanter
600 hit points
-100 ac with spells
stoneskin
coldshield
blur

for mob:
power word blind
slow
ray of enfeeblement
enervate
stumble
fumble


not enough? lol, hardly man Image

by level 50 i will have the 800 hp mark cinched with eq. no vit.
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Postby Olamdir » Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:33 am

I was mostly thinking of invokers when saying no protection spells. But regarding hp you may have much, but compared to a Warrior? I think not.

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Postby thanuk » Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:41 am

Ok so you cant solo a dockie. You can wipe out an entire gatehouse at the same time. Which is really more useful? And invokers do usually have near or the same hps as warriors, just not fully spelled up, have any ac or agi, and dont have any defensive skills so they die pretty quick when tanking.


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Postby Zetey » Wed Nov 27, 2002 4:35 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B> level 37 enchanter
600 hit points
-100 ac with spells
stoneskin
coldshield
blur

for mob:
power word blind
slow
ray of enfeeblement
enervate
stumble
fumble


not enough? lol, hardly man Image

by level 50 i will have the 800 hp mark cinched with eq. no vit.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We should remember that not everyone has the spanky eq to have 600 hps at 37 -- there are still a number of people who start from scratch and didn't have level 50 eq they could trade to get a full mage setup. If you didn't, I bet you wouldn't be soloing dockmasters. Try playing a caster from scratch, where your best piece of eq is a suit of dwarven scalemail Lillithelle (Thanks, Lil!) handed you after you asked for help on NHC and see how many hps you have at 37. I find your hubris offensive.

Zet
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Postby Daz » Wed Nov 27, 2002 4:47 am

i find your assumptions offensive.

i played a conjurer for nearly 3 years, where with equipment i NEVER topped 350 hit points. i wore tiny silver rings at level 45, i didn't have time to zone because i played from telnet. i was able to solo tons of mobs. as an enchanter, my hit points are only good when i hitch on to zones. for fighting mobs, i never take more than 100 damage in a fight anyway.

i have paid my newbie taxes a hundred times over, and i have earned the equipment that adorns my character.

why don't you maybe post something contributive to the thread instead of sharing how downtrodden you are with us?

my point of posting about my hit points was to illustrate that mages can have hit points compareable to melee classes, and an array of defensive spells. what did you accomplish by way of reminding us how hard dorf scale is to get?
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Postby Tanji Smanji » Wed Nov 27, 2002 5:21 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Olamdir:
<B>I was mostly thinking of invokers when saying no protection spells. But regarding hp you may have much, but compared to a Warrior? I think not.

Olamdir.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My elementalist has -100 ac, 1100 hps with embody, is mostly !bash and semi-wraith. I can and have out-tanked a warrior on a single mob. Grouped? With an 8 gold armor potion I'm at -45 ac, 800 hps without vit (1000+ with vit) and can still survive a few good hits with stone.

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Postby Olamdir » Wed Nov 27, 2002 5:25 am

Enchanters are not nearly as offensive as Invokers, and this topic is about Invokers mainly, regarding their damage dealing abilities. Thus you as an Enchanter having lots of protection spellups does not matter, because an Invoker doesn't have those spells.
You can say an Enchanter can solo this and that mob, but in the end they don't get any spanky big damage dealing area spell of importance.


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Postby Olamdir » Wed Nov 27, 2002 5:28 am

Re: Elementalists.. same as Above. Why are you bringing them into attention. It's totally irrelevant. Or are you saying that Invoker damage should be toned down just because Elementalists/Enchanters can stone themselves etc?

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Postby Yarash » Wed Nov 27, 2002 9:30 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Olamdir:
<B>Re: Elementalists.. same as Above. Why are you bringing them into attention. It's totally irrelevant. Or are you saying that Invoker damage should be toned down just because Elementalists/Enchanters can stone themselves etc?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said. It should also be mentioned that the best spells aren't just gained by levelling, they must be earned through questing. This is a long and involving process that is taking me months to finish.

- Mike
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Postby Daz » Wed Nov 27, 2002 9:43 am

at first they were long and slow. and then everyone knows how to do them, and they are easy. even fire embody is more tedious than difficult. is the goal then to scare people away from a powerful class by threatening use of boredom?

make all spells quest spells, variable based on the level of the applicant. make the quests dynamic each time, and unique for every character.

maybe gate for you was 3 random items, but for me it was 2 items and another quest. maybe you gave up a flaming earring for fire embody, but i gave up a gythka for time stop.

also, make it so that you can't know the nature of your spell quest until you get high enough level to get it. make it so that other players can not teach you spells to cheat this.

how about we get rid of the mem-out process altogether. oh no, warrior has to wait for casters to mem during xp.

nothing against invokers individually, but as a class, they are too effective. it's like during testing they used invokers as the standard with which to measure all other classes.

bring back monks, bring back mercenaries, split rogues into assassins thiefs . . . why are you going to consolidate the melee classes and then split the mage classes?
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Postby Yarash » Wed Nov 27, 2002 10:47 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
at first they were long and slow. and then everyone knows how to do them, and they are easy.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is taking me months to finish my quests.

- Mike
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Postby thanuk » Wed Nov 27, 2002 11:07 am

Olamdir and Yarash, i think the reason they are mentioning the stats of their enchanter/elementalist is because they can wear the same eq as you. And maybe you cant cast defensive spells like stoneskin, but since you cant kill anything by yourself, and are therefore always grouped, there always has to be someone there who can cast those kinds of spells on you.

Daz, wtf are you talking about? You have to realize that all of those suggestions are impossible. A dynamic quest for every player for every spell? Riiiigggghhhttttt...

But back to the topic at hand. Invokers can do 500+ damage to up to what is it 15 mobs? or somewhere around there, at the same time, every three rounds, maybe four depending on your quick chant. If your getting killed because you area and a mob isnt engaged, then maybe you should pay more attention to what the mobs are doing.
Every other mage class isn't a mini-voker. Just because your class was designated to do more damage than any other, doesn't mean the other classes should do none at all. I liked the old system where a sorcerer was a sorcerer, but those days are just gone, forget them. Invokers themselves are not the problem really, its just the overall dependence on spells for damage that is screwing the melee classes, combined with the fact that all the useful skills for melee classes are being given out in spells and equipment. You don't need a rogue to sneak or hide, you have an illusionist. Shieldpunch? Charge? Wtf for, spells stun with a much higher success rate. Archery is still bugged it seems, so the rangers have nothing to even bring to the table to begin with. Mages do more damage then melee classes, and even have spells that have the same effect as melee skills with a much higher success rate. Melee classes don't have a leg to stand on. I think the reason invoker gets called out on this is because its doing most of the damage that used to give melee an edge over casters. But when that was the situation of the mud, the casters still had unique abilities they brought to the table. Now casters still have the unique abilities, AND the damage, so the balance has shifted much farther in the other direction. Invokers do the most damage out of all the mages, so they became the scapegoat for this power shift. As to what to do about it, you got me. Lower spell damage and up melee damage. Take away melee skills from casters. How much damage? Which skills? I couldn't tell ya, its a hard thing to balance all the classes. I identified the problem, YOU figure out how to fix it Image


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Postby Marforp » Wed Nov 27, 2002 9:46 pm

Just on the invoker question....

1) Why do all casters get eseentially the same hit points? How many people would complain about the power of invokers if they only had 500-600hp (with eq, etc...). They would die more often, but they would still deal scary damage to groups of mobs.

2) Why do all casters have the same number of spells to cast in a circle and essentially take the same amount of time to mem? Think about it. If an invoker could only mem one cloud and took 1 minute+ to mem it you could 3x or 4x the damage and it would still have a very balancing affect. Invokers the master of damage!, but it better be a short fight and the group would have to allow for prep time afterwards. This makes sense to me. Allow invokers to be the ultimate damage machine, but make their non-fight time more annoying. Isn't that the real reason people are bi**hing about this...their ability to be the constant damage machine.

3) If their ever was a pwipe I would like to see more quests for invoker spells. The ability for a class to do ultimate damage without any eq in the game allows for the mud to become uber powerfull more quickly. [Note: I wouldn't complain if the same logic said that stone should be a quest spell]

Peace out!

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Postby Teyaha » Thu Nov 28, 2002 2:16 am

melee not that downgraded. a few evils and a few rogues have 50+ damroll while still maintaining close to 30 hitroll.

just like in toril. only now AC means something.
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Postby Tanji Smanji » Thu Nov 28, 2002 2:24 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Teyaha:
<B>melee not that downgraded. a few evils and a few rogues have 50+ damroll while still maintaining close to 30 hitroll.

just like in toril. only now AC means something.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm at 30/46 right now and pretty much at my limit on damroll save maybe 1 or 2 items. I can't do nearly the damage in 1 round that an invoker can do in 1 nuke even hasted. I've tested many times on various mobs, shrug. Mobs still have strong defense skills with shieldblock bein unreal. If you ever do muspel invasion you'll see mobs shieldblockin like there's no tomorrow.

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Postby oteb » Thu Nov 28, 2002 2:50 am

In my opinion if anything should get dowgraded it is not voker nukes. Afterall vokers are meant to be prime source of damage. Why not remove area spells from shamans,mentalists,chanters etc. they have other spells that would compensate lack of area damage. Hitters bitching about invoker nuking multiple mob is like voker whining that tanks have shiledblock, parry, riposte, dodge.

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Postby Pheten » Thu Nov 28, 2002 3:45 am

Why not remove area spells from shamans,mentalists,chanters etc.

Ding, ding we have a winner. Take away all those area spells and replace them with target spells of some sort.
Let vokers be the power house they are sposed to be by dominating the area effect field, while making it actually matter which mobs the single target spell casters/hitters are on. Anybody else rememeber the days when if you didnt have a good assist target your group was toast? At least you had to look at your screen back then during a zone not just.
c 'areaspell1' x1000
or rescuetrig1 x1000
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[This message has been edited by Pheten (edited 11-27-2002).]
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Postby Glorishan » Thu Nov 28, 2002 4:38 am

If you ask me, downgrading invokers isn't the solution...What is? Well, eliminating the entire class is. They're one-trick ponies who do just an insane amount of damage. Eliminate them and you can return a great deal of damage to melee classes to make up for it, which will make them happy. Granted giving a class that had a lot of work put into it the boot is kinda harsh, but ya know what? it solves more problems than it creates. If I had to put together a small group to do almost any zone under-manned, I would sooner take any invoker over any warrior or melee type class. When I did 5 man smoke invasion, we had a total of zero melee classes.

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Postby Tanji Smanji » Thu Nov 28, 2002 4:56 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by oteb:
<B>In my opinion if anything should get dowgraded it is not voker nukes. Afterall vokers are meant to be prime source of damage. Why not remove area spells from shamans,mentalists,chanters etc. they have other spells that would compensate lack of area damage. Hitters bitching about invoker nuking multiple mob is like voker whining that tanks have shiledblock, parry, riposte, dodge.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm honestly not pushing to downgrade areas much, I think they could use a minor downtweak and single nukes could use a decent downtweak. I also think if this happened that they should get some sort of self only defense to make up for it though. I mainly would like to see melee damage and PC tanking tweaked up a notch or 2 so there's a point to bring them to more than a few zones. I've done Jot grid and a ton of other zones with no tanks or melees period and we did fine. That shouldn't be the case except in a few cases.

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Postby Corth » Thu Nov 28, 2002 6:04 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Glorishan:
If you ask me, downgrading invokers isn't the solution...What is? Well, eliminating the entire class is. They're one-trick ponies who do just an insane amount of damage. Eliminate them and you can return a great deal of damage to melee classes to make up for it, which will make them happy. Granted giving a class that had a lot of work put into it the boot is kinda harsh, but ya know what? it solves more problems than it creates. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen. I agree with everything you say. I'd love to see invokers given a choice to become any of the other mage classes and that would be the end of it...

Corth



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Postby Xisiqomelir » Thu Nov 28, 2002 6:12 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Glorishan:
<B>If you ask me, downgrading invokers isn't the solution...What is? Well, eliminating the entire class is.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I suppose all the 100+++ day ptime Invokers are meant to meekly acquiesce with this because it conforms to your ideas of "balance"?

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Postby torkur » Thu Nov 28, 2002 6:31 am

Removing Invokers will balance all the melee/mage class problems?

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Postby Corth » Thu Nov 28, 2002 7:54 am

it would certainly be a good start. Everyone knows that melee is in need of a major upgrade. And how can you justify giving the players more damage when we already have too much? So you get rid of invokers (The one-trick pony class), up melee significantly to compensate, and you are well on the way to fixing some of the major problems on the mud...

Corth

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Postby Daz » Thu Nov 28, 2002 8:57 am

well, the BIG issue with this is that it REALLY isn't fair to invokers. other than that, it WOULD go very far to fixing the issues with game balance. why bring a ranger to gate when you could get an invoker? well, if there wasn't an invoker, you might find yourself sending tells to your local ranger/rogue more often.
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Postby oteb » Thu Nov 28, 2002 9:00 am

Wouldnt removal of areas from all other classes do the same trick? That would still leave a niche for invokers and would reduce overall damage output of a group maybe even more than takin away one class. If any mages are overpowered it is not invokers.
Or maybe reduce effectivness of displace, scales, blur while improving defensive skills, leaving tanking to classes that are meant for that.
Or
Hell, we can try to remove Glorishan and Corth as we all now that each of them is a bigger asset to group than any voker. Who cares how much they like their class or how much time they invested.

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[This message has been edited by oteb (edited 11-28-2002).]
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Postby Dalar » Thu Nov 28, 2002 9:56 am

getting rid of the invoker class is just a mistake. the main problem w/ this mud is invokers kill to fast and melee kills too slow. damage knobs need to be turned quick b4 players begin burning out again. all that needs to be done is reduce spell damage/spell protection and increase melee defensive/offensive skills. if invokers kill slower and melee kills faster there would still be a niche for both classes. right now, all casters are just wrong. I believe many players have shown this by doing 2-man whatever without tanks.

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Postby Snurgt » Thu Nov 28, 2002 1:01 pm

I'd like to see melee classes be the kings (or queens) of single target damage, and keep invokers niche in area damage.

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Postby Yayaril » Thu Nov 28, 2002 1:01 pm

You folks make it sound like there's an infinite pool of every class that you can just dip your hand into and add someone to your group. I've run plenty of zones, and having tons of invokers does speed things up- but there's never lots of invokers to bring with, and even if there were, my choices of who to bring with wouldn't consist of a majority of invokers.

All the group leaders I know bring people with that they like and are available. Sure, there's some classes that are required to do certain zones, but invoker isn't one of them. Having played both a melee and a caster, I can compare the damage from both instances: melees and casters do similar amounts of damage in most cases. Then there are situations where one outshines the other. Against demons and dragons, melees get the head up. Against large groups of foes without MR, casters can do more damage with areas. Yeah, a caster with a single nuke can do more damage in one round (the round that the nuke lands) than a melee can. Have you taken into account that while the caster is memming out, the melee is still whacking on the mob. While the caster is casting his spell, the melee is still whacking the mob.

When running experience groups, adding melees always seem to make the foes die much faster than adding casters. Rogues and rangers do tons of damage, although it seems that most of them have bought into the idea that they are weak and useless.

I used to do dockmasters with Kaeldar when he still played (an invoker). A rogue-invoker team is pretty weird for doing experience, but it seemed to work. I would minor para the dock master, and kaeldar would sit there hitting it with major para until one landed. Then we'd both go to town on the dock master. Kaeldar was using force missiles, and I was using backstabs. We could still check group damage back then, and since there was only 1 melee, and 1 caster, it was easy to see who was doing how much damage. I was 4-5 levels lower than him, and kept missing backstabs, but by the end of the day, we had both done the same amount of damage, about. He had all three force missiles, and I had about +30 damroll.

All in all, at any given point in time, when a caster nuke goes off- melee damage at that point in time is weaker than the nuke. In the long run, though- melee is much more efficient and compares in damage to caster nukes in this world of cast and mem out. Maybe I'm not aloof of the situation, but I can't really see this huge problem.

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Postby Olamdir » Thu Nov 28, 2002 4:31 pm

I can't see the problem in Invokers doing the most damage? They can do nothing but nuke anyway..
A Fighter can bash, rescue, dodge, parry etc etc. Where is the logic in letting a class that can do all that, also do the most damage?

If you want Fighters to do as much damage as Invokers, reduce their hitpoints and remove bash/shieldpunch/rescue.
Every class has a purpose in this mud, a warriors primary purpose is to tank, a cleric to heal, and invoker to nuke.

If Invokers are doing zones too easy, then reduce their damage, but reduce melee damage along with it, so that Invokers are still the ultimate damage dealers, because that's their one and only purpose, no other class should do more damage than them.


Olamdir.
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Postby Sarvis » Thu Nov 28, 2002 4:36 pm

You're missing something. It seems like lately warriors can't tank without having 3 casters around to buff them. So by your logic maybe invokers should need a bunch of spells cast on them in order to do any damage...

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Postby thanuk » Thu Nov 28, 2002 5:34 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Olamdir:
<B>I can't see the problem in Invokers doing the most damage? They can do nothing but nuke anyway..
A Fighter can bash, rescue, dodge, parry etc etc. Where is the logic in letting a class that can do all that, also do the most damage?

If you want Fighters to do as much damage as Invokers, reduce their hitpoints and remove bash/shieldpunch/rescue.
Every class has a purpose in this mud, a warriors primary purpose is to tank, a cleric to heal, and invoker to nuke.

If Invokers are doing zones too easy, then reduce their damage, but reduce melee damage along with it, so that Invokers are still the ultimate damage dealers, because that's their one and only purpose, no other class should do more damage than them.


Olamdir.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shieldpunch is useless, it never stuns anything, spells work better. Bash is ok, when the mob is small enough to actually bash, which is incredibly rare. Also with the chance to fail, your better off just silencing. As for our defensive skills, they are a joke. If you pay attention during any fight with a warrior tanking, as soon as blur/displace/scale drop, they get the living crap kicked out of them. So bashing is rarely used, shieldpunch sucks, defensive skills are nothing without full spells, and warriors can rescue. Talk about a one-trick pony...maybe pull warriors and give invokers tank skills. And dont forget about the other fighters, the ones that cant tank. Rogues have no benefit that is unavailable to another class except picking locks and detecting traps. Rangers cant even do that.

As for melee being the same as toril, sure, the damage is the same. But the amount of hits is cut in half cuz the mobs parry/riposte/shieldblock/dodge like 8x as often as they ever did on toril.

When it gets down to it, invoker is just the monk class with mem time. The closest this mud ever came to balance was after monks got pulled. 1+1=?

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Thanuk Pantherclaw

[This message has been edited by thanuk (edited 11-28-2002).]
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Postby Marix » Thu Nov 28, 2002 5:37 pm

Great points Yayaril, ok I have a suggestion that might appease some people. I've noticed that critical hits aren't really as good as they should be. In D&D when you critically hit someone it can cause hit point loss per round to that person until it is either bandaged or a healing spell is casted on them to stop the bleeding. What if we added something like this for the melee classes? We can make it so that mobs can bandage after a battle if there non casters, and the same for warriors etc... Also, the amount of hitpoint loss suffered should depend upon the type of weapon used, i.e. an ranger arrow should only do 15%-20% of the damage a sword would do. In the long run I think this would help the melee classes out a lot. Just my opinion, as a cleric I can see both sides of the fence for you guys.

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Postby Corth » Thu Nov 28, 2002 5:38 pm

difference is that monks did only a fraction of the damage that invokers do.. and a small one at that..

And btw, i agree with people that say invokers shouldn't be downgraded. If your going to have them in the game they SHOULD do mega damage cause that is their niche. If they aren't removed then unfortunately they cant be downgraded either... So just remove them already...

Corth

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Postby Marix » Thu Nov 28, 2002 5:53 pm

They won't remove invokers, if you wanna talk about game balance getting rid of invokers won't solve that problem, all it will do is cause the people that play invokers to stop playing and create a bigger problem. Besides every argument you can make about invokers being over-powered for damage you can make about clerics for healing and enchanters for buff spells. It's just what they do. I agree that tanks should have better defensive skills I also think melee should be better for damage. In the end though, it's up to the admins. and whatever they deem the solution to be is their choice. BTW..anyone notice how it's always the other guys class that is the problem and not your own?

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Postby thanuk » Thu Nov 28, 2002 6:52 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Marix:
<B>They won't remove invokers, if you wanna talk about game balance getting rid of invokers won't solve that problem, all it will do is cause the people that play invokers to stop playing and create a bigger problem. Besides every argument you can make about invokers being over-powered for damage you can make about clerics for healing and enchanters for buff spells. It's just what they do. I agree that tanks should have better defensive skills I also think melee should be better for damage. In the end though, it's up to the admins. and whatever they deem the solution to be is their choice. BTW..anyone notice how it's always the other guys class that is the problem and not your own?

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Invokers are not the only class who's niche lies in damage. As far as the healing niche, clerics get fullheal, but plenty of other classes get regular heal, the same way plenty of other mages get area damage spells. And enchanters...well enchanter/invoker problems stem from the same root, my suggestion would be to make the classes more similar to each other. Give invokers less offense and more defense, and vice versa for enchanters. They could still be two distinct classes without having to be complete opposites of each other.

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Thanuk Pantherclaw
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Postby Teyaha » Thu Nov 28, 2002 7:29 pm

monks did less damage per person, but we didnt have grouping limits back then. 4 monks in a group was common.

nowadays you only take one or two invokers, because you need the other spots of other people.
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Postby oteb » Thu Nov 28, 2002 8:05 pm

1. Why its only goodies that whine about melee/caster inblance? Maybe its time for us to do harder zones/fights where all classes matter?
2. Thanuk, you once said during scorps run how you hate that zone becasue it takes at least one voker to be in it. Maybe its time for hitter to get over area damage envy? I dont hate any zone just becasue you have to bring at least one warrior to be in it.*shrug*
If think this mud strives for specialization.Yeah i envy illusionist and chanter their defensive spells but i dont post whine 'give vokers displace'.The question is would giving tanking and damage to one class bring mud to balance? Dont think so.
3.Who cares if ppl do 2man or solo spider queen or whatever? You still need warriors in zone groups and i dont think warriors are losing spot in group just b/c a spelled caster can tank a single mob for a a couple of rounds. !tank gatehouse that would be a blance issue.

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Postby Dalar » Thu Nov 28, 2002 8:34 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by oteb:
<B>1. Why its only goodies that whine about melee/caster inblance? Maybe its time for us to do harder zones/fights where all classes matter?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. Because rangers suck and look at how much melee we have and how many good invokers/liches/necros that we don't have.


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