Invokers and game balance...

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
Sarkhon
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Postby Sarkhon » Thu Nov 28, 2002 8:51 pm

Solution: Remove Invokers and put Monks back in ... no more woes of areas obliterating mobs while melee damage gets buffed in the process -- single target at that -- and most importantly, Sarkhon becomes a happy camper once more ... It's oh so simple!

Relax, I'm joking (somewhat).
torkur
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Postby torkur » Thu Nov 28, 2002 9:42 pm

Such an old argument, always the wrong scapegoat.....

1)High level invoker area spells beat other caster area spells and people think they're too high....could invoker area spells be higher in damage because the other casters' spells are that high?

2)Casters with buff spells are tanking too well....could tanking skills be too low or buff spells be too powerful?

3)Will removing invokers or reducing their damage to the level of everyone else fix the above two problems?

4) Should hitters proc force missiles so it's "fair" or should (1) and (2) be fixed? (Note: Corth's clouds log from a couple weeks ago. ZERO Invokers in group.)

Doesn't seem like a hard solution to me.....
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Postby Corth » Fri Nov 29, 2002 6:35 am

The correct scapegoat is the class that can turn a challenging fight into a 45 second laugh with a few areas that take no skill whatsoever to spam out.. At least the other classes have to cast other essential spells in between their atomic bombs.

Maybe I shouldn't say invokers are ruining the mud. A more precise way of formulating it is that area damage is doing it. Good, so the solution is to lower nukes. The best way, imho, is to leave the lesser nukes of the other classes and get rid of the cheesy one-trick pony class altogether. Maybe the same result can be accomplished without getting rid of vokers.. but i still dont see what the point of such a one-dimensional class is. All the other classes do damage plus something. Invokers are completely brainless. (not saying the people that play them are.. saying the class is.)

Another thing to think of. Any invoker can pump out insane damage.. even a noob who has powerleveled up to 50 on the ship and knows nothing about doing a zone. At least monks, which did much lesser damage, had to accumulate eq to do their damage. They had to zone in order to get better at what they do...

Corth

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[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 11-29-2002).]
Xisiqomelir
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Fri Nov 29, 2002 6:55 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Xisiqomelir:
<B> I suppose all the 100+++ day ptime Invokers are meant to meekly acquiesce with this because it conforms to your ideas of "balance"?

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

(I'd post something new, but I figure I've perfected it, so why bother?)

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oteb
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Postby oteb » Fri Nov 29, 2002 7:09 am

Well voker alos need to accumulate eq to do thier damage. 200 hp naked is not what i want to zone with.

But hell, maybe we need to be removed...well at least if i was given a chance to remort as necro or illusionst i would go for it. (yes its time to roll an alt probably)

EDIT: or maybe give vokers more toys: fix power word stun, rethink sandstorm, make either blind or silence on sandblast more reliable. lower damage and give some debuffs. right now my favourite spell is not inferno but thunderblast. i just love to area stun.
2.EDIT removal of vokers would hurt goodie side more than evils since they have psis which, as i heard, can deal compareable dam.
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[This message has been edited by oteb (edited 11-29-2002).]

[This message has been edited by oteb (edited 11-29-2002).]
Zoldren
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Postby Zoldren » Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:46 pm

first off, invokers do alot of damage yes, its what they are for, its the ONLY THING they can do.

The cant tank, they cant do anything defensive, woops sorry they are great for di/lev/dm, well when liches arnt around.

Yes i agree, tanks need to actualy be able to rely more on their skills than the current they HAVE to rely on spellups

it is silly to see displace/dscales drop 1 round and tank was at excelent only to die or drop to ph the next round....

The main point is invokers dont do "to much damage" its every other class who casts damage who does dam near as much as invokers thats the problem.

In what i mean is.. when you have shamans area'n, enchanters area, liches area, elementalist area, liches/necros area...
ive been in groups where i got 2 infernos off at first and second gate, and all the mobs were dead, and i was the only invoker there... and your telling me that invokers do to much damage? give me a break

yes upgrade skills so they actualy work

yes downgrade spells, some small % for most classes, but leave invoker damage, if you lower their damage you make them even more useless than they are now.

after all every class is not supposed to do mega damage only invokers are right?

for all of you who dont know in reference to other threads blah blah.

and yes i do play a tank, i do play an illus and i do play an invoker,

tanks need there skills to work to feel worth something.

i can solo/do/kill 500% more with my tank, and my illusionist than i can with my invoker

invokers were ment for groups only *whut soj3 was ment for* that is their only nich, they HAVE to have a group to stand behind, and do their damage.

saying invokers do to much is silly, unless you look at every other class that does spell damage that is on par w/invokers, then ask yourself are invokers realy the one that need downed?

Zoldren/Ssosset/Uagr
Tired of beating the Stop bitchin about invokers damage horse and points to all the previous threads, RE READ THEM

and ps invokers area spells have had their ** increased, admited or not

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Corth
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Postby Corth » Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:56 pm

your right zoldren, invokers dont need to be downed. they're such a one-dimensional class that they ought to do that one thing they do well if they're gonna be in the game... if anything they should be upgraded.

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Postby Malacar » Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:59 pm

I'm with Corth on this one.

Very well worded post.

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torkur
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Postby torkur » Fri Nov 29, 2002 6:38 pm

So those of us who like 15 man groups, zoning without 8 hours and 2 crs, and killing things brute force are SOL and have to change classes because you're sick of them and want everyone powerful enough to not need hitters at all? The exact argument could be used for enchanters since we're on opposite sides of the coin, maybe we should remove them for being too powerful as well?
And warriors are FAR easier to play than invokers (just set up some triggers and you'll be average) and more one sided currently, remove them too. You must've missed some of the subtle things about invokers if you haven't played them, especially with how long some of our qc can be and managing your boring damage spells for each zone between mems, same as any other caster class.

If invokers ruin the mud and your fun, why do you guild them and drag 2-3 along 90% of the time? Noone requires you to use them, but those of us who do or play them, do because we like them. Stop using invokers and start using rogues/rangers exclusively then, noone is stopping you.
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Postby Crumar » Fri Nov 29, 2002 7:08 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by torkur:
If invokers ruin the mud and your fun, why do you guild them and drag 2-3 along 90% of the time? Noone requires you to use them, but those of us who do or play them, do because we like them. Stop using invokers and start using rogues/rangers exclusively then, noone is stopping you.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I agree that although I have not played a voker, it seems reasonable for those who want more of a challenge when zoning to not bring vokers along and see how well they do. But of course since other casters have decent area spells there really is no point in doing this since area damage from these classes will speed things up a bit without vokers anyway.

As others have said downgrading area spells on other caster types and upgrading melee classes might solve this problem of voker envy. Only way to find out is to make these changes and see how it goes. The staff should consider it if; as a lot of people have said here, makes the game to easy and unbalanced.


Crumar.
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Postby Jegzed » Fri Nov 29, 2002 7:20 pm

One easy solution to this balance.

Remove area damage-spells.

This will make invokers VERY good at dealing magical damage, and pretty much balanced against rogues/rangers/dires.



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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
thanuk
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Postby thanuk » Fri Nov 29, 2002 10:43 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by oteb:
1. Why its only goodies that whine about melee/caster inblance? Maybe its time for us to do harder zones/fights where all classes matter?
I don't know why evils don't consider it an issue, im not an evil. But alot of the people on the goodie side who have raised concerns about it have done almost all the difficult fights/zones.
<B>
2. Thanuk, you once said during scorps run how you hate that zone becasue it takes at least one voker to be in it. Maybe its time for hitter to get over area damage envy? I dont hate any zone just becasue you have to bring at least one warrior to be in it.*shrug*</B>
I don't hate the zone, but i did hate sitting around for an hour with a full group, minus an invoker, waiting to get an invoker just so we could have a chance at winning a fight in the zone.

<B>
If think this mud strives for specialization.Yeah i envy illusionist and chanter their defensive spells but i dont post whine 'give vokers displace'.The question is would giving tanking and damage to one class bring mud to balance? Dont think so.</B>
I don't think if invokers were removed the damage upgrade should go to warriors. Maybe a little tweak, but i would assume that without invokers, the damage would have to come from rogues and rangers, who are supposed to be "damage classes" as it is. Unfortunately for them, their damage is pathetic in comparison to invokers, and if they want to get hit/dam they sacrifice hps eq, a problem invokers dont have, so they really dont compete at all in the damage category and become nearly useless.
<B>
3.Who cares if ppl do 2man or solo spider queen or whatever? You still need warriors in zone groups and i dont think warriors are losing spot in group just b/c a spelled caster can tank a single mob for a a couple of rounds. !tank gatehouse that would be a blance issue.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think you fail to see the issue here. The imbalance caused by invoker damage has very little effect on warriors, you still need warriors for groups, if for nothing else than to rescue. Invokers currently do so much damage that they remove any need for other damage dealing classes, such as rangers and rogues. They also eliminate a good deal of strategy and tactics from the game, and replace it with brute force.

Jegzed, you might be on to something. I would say that area damage has a place in the game, but perhaps a serious downgrade across the board as to how much damage can be done, and possibly something that would change the amount of damage based on the number of targets, so the more targets you hit the less each individually would receive.

Torkur you obviously haven't played a warrior at high levels...
Xisiqomelir, thats exactly what all the monks had to do...


Before i get called out and flamed some more by angry invokers, lets get something straight. Invokers have absolutely no effect on the role of a warrior in a group. They never did, they never will. There is no subconscious drive for me to say this stuff because it is making it harder for me to get a group or something of that nature, so please stop implying it. Invokers throw the game off balance. They do too much damage to too many things all at the same time. Sure you can't solo, big friggin deal. The mud isn't about soloing. Its about grouping. Invokers eliminate the need for at least 2 other classes in groups. They change the way zones are designed, once difficult fights have become easy, and new zones have to be changed to include things like MR just to counteract the effect that this one class has on it. Any fight that might require some thought and strategy, can just be blitzed and destroyed with enough invokers. When one single class changes the way the entire game is played by everyone else, then they are out of balance. Berserkers were out of balance. Monks were out of balance. Both of these were supreme damage dealing classes. Now we have invokers, who are also out of balance. Its just a horse of a different color. Now its easy to say just remove them, but i think they still have a place here. Jegzed has had the best suggestion so far. But if you seriously believe that invokers are not at all out of balance and that its ALL the other classes that need to be tweaked around them, then i don't know what to tell you, you are just being biased.


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Thanuk Pantherclaw
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Postby Vahok » Fri Nov 29, 2002 11:16 pm

My two cents...

Torkur -- triggers do not make warriors, same rules as other classes (we could sit and say "Clerics only have heal tanks, rogues only assist, blah blah...") Players make the warriors (I admit, I used to suck at it, only able to bash and/or rescue)

O.k., on to the topic here. Invokers are NOT ruining the mud with their damage. Give me a break...they have to be up there with the worst solo ability. So what if people feel they are needed to zone. Clerics and enchanters are needed to zone, are these "one-trick ponies" as well? (meaning their roles in the zone, ie. healing main tank and stoning/blurring main tank).

Do invokers make some zones easier? Hell yes.
But rogues make CRing easier, clerics make tanks living easier, etc. So layoff the fact the deal out SO much damage. They do what the class was made for, period. Or did you think they would suck at damage?

Solutions...I think most hitting and tanking classes would agree with a change in melee damage or melee defensive skills. Really, tanks can't solo shit (maybe a wuss caster mob without coldshield on). Heck I've seen rogues my level pound elite guards solo...could I do that? For a laugh, watch me try...if I win, I'll have to sleep up my hitpoints for a long-ass time! Same deal with rangers and bard (I believe, never played these classes).

My votes are for an upgrade in melee damage (it's not that bad atm, but needs a little kick) and a big increase in defence for hitting and tanking classes. No, I shouldn't be the master of dealing out damage. But c'mon, without full spellup ,what am I? Nothing but chew toy for 3 rounds until Death takes me out to dinner. Not saying we should rid ourselves of the need to spellup...but am I the only one who finds it odd that warriors load up on hp gear? My hit/dam blows, but it doesn't matter anymore. We are TOO dependant on other classes; we shouldn't be called warriors anymore. We should be called fodder or spellwhores, because I think I'm not alone on that feeling...

P.S. Flame away, but those are my thoughts...

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Postby Xisiqomelir » Sat Nov 30, 2002 12:31 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B>
Xisiqomelir, thats exactly what all the monks had to do...

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not midwipe. If you seriously want to delete everyone playing a certain class, punishing them just because they "ruin the game" according to you, the only FAIR way to do it would be to delete everyone and wipe.

Then you can enjoy the challenge and oh-so-deep feelings of satisfaction that come from grouping without Invokers, and without all the other people who would leave too.

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"I know you like to believe fairy tales about how rude and unfair evils are, but keep them on your side of Baldur's Gate."

[This message has been edited by Xisiqomelir (edited 11-29-2002).]
torkur
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Postby torkur » Sat Nov 30, 2002 12:38 am

Lol, um guys, my warrior is lvl 46, named Tokon. I've zoned with both of you as both my chars in a bunch of hard zones and zone more often as my warrior because I enjoy playing him and the easier xp tables.

I did NOT say that ONLY triggers make a warrior. Read it again. I said warriors are easier to play (my opinion after playing both classes to 46+, sorry) AND that you'll be an average warrior on here with a good set of triggers. Good warriors take time to level up and do more than just use triggers (just like good clerics, chanters, etc as Vahok said), but given the lack of bashable mobs and such in most fights, I spend most of my time rescuing and standing there tanking and the average person's alt can do that with rescue triggers off the BBS. *Shrug* My opinion, sorry you don't agree.
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Postby oteb » Sat Nov 30, 2002 1:11 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jegzed:
<B>One easy solution to this balance.

Remove area damage-spells.</B>

This will make invokers VERY good at dealing magical damage, and pretty much balanced against rogues/rangers/dires.

</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


A decent equipped hitter with haste outdamages a voker on a single mob. If mob has MR there is a large gap between rogue/ranger damage and that done by a voker.

RIght now voker can deal massive damage to multiple mobs making hitters pale in comparison but rogues can hide, sneak, assassinate, pick, disarm and has a galore of poison useful in some situations. Removing areas from voker would be no different then removing a class.

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Postby Zoldren » Sat Nov 30, 2002 1:23 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>your right zoldren, invokers dont need to be downed. they're such a one-dimensional class that they ought to do that one thing they do well if they're gonna be in the game... if anything they should be upgraded.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think its funny 3/4 of this thread is flaming invokers because they do to much damage, and yes tahts all they do, but when you say other classes do almost as much damage as them it gets ignored and invoker bashing begins again.

by your logic, invokers are 1 dim take out take them out, enchanters take them out too, healers too etc, nobody complains a healer heals to much from one spell, or an enchanter dscale lasts threw a hard fight, why do you complain when an invoker does in your words, to much damage from one spell. but then again when the class you "like" does that much damage its ignore because its not their nich

so then again by the same regard, any class that is either one dimensional is removed, or, any class that excels in more than one area should be removed, because they are to powerful like shamans and illusinoists

intead of admiting other classes who should not be doing that much damage, it must be the invokers fault downgrade them, feh

like i said my best example is getting 2 count 1+1 spells of during any of the gate fights in jot why is that? because every other class does to much damage, NOT because the invokers 1400 hp from 2 spells *thats IF the mobs didnt save* yes i said 1400 from 2 area spells if not saved, now how much damage did the enchanters/lich/illusionist/elementalist/shamans etc have to do to kill all those mobs before i got a third spell of.. you tell me


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Corth
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Postby Corth » Sat Nov 30, 2002 2:22 am

zoldren..

I did not say i am in favor of downgrading invokers. I was serious when i said that if they remain in the game they might deserve an upgrade.

As for other classes (lets use cleric for an example), i doubt they are as one-dimensional as invokers. But even if clerics are a one-trick healing pony, that is not where the problem with this game is. The problem isn't that people are getting healed too much, its that fights are a joke that are over before they even get interesting because of all the combined damage of the casting classes. Yes, its not just vokers. Vokers are just the largest culprits and the best candidate for removal because they serve no other essential purpose.

Corth

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Postby thanuk » Sat Nov 30, 2002 3:08 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Xisiqomelir:
<B> Not midwipe. If you seriously want to delete everyone playing a certain class, punishing them just because they "ruin the game" according to you, the only FAIR way to do it would be to delete everyone and wipe.

Then you can enjoy the challenge and oh-so-deep feelings of satisfaction that come from grouping without Invokers, and without all the other people who would leave too.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, monks were removed mid wipe. But no, they were not deleted, they were changed into i think warriors but im not sure if tehy got the choice to be rangers or something like that. I know for a fact that they weren't straight deleted. I would assume invokers would be given that choice if they were removed, but honestly they arent going to be removed, regardless of how many people say it should happen.

Vahok, what does solo ability have to do with anything? Nobody can solo anything really worth doing, except runecopple who can solo chlora, and that took him hours. The game is all about the group.

The rest of you who are saying other classes can do almost as much damage as invokers, you MUST be kidding. Thats like saying druids can heal almost as well as clerics, or that rangers can tank almost as well as warriors. And for some reason you seem to think that other classes should do no damage at all? I really dont get your argument.
The problem that even brings up this issue is that PCs in general do too much damage. Fights that should be difficult are easy, quick, and painless. We all know that its not melee doing all the insane damage. So obviously its the mages. Who does the most damage out of the mages? invokers. Zoldren, you said you got off 2 spells, doing 1400 damage to each of 12 mobs, and you didnt have time to land a third spell because the whole gatehouse was dead, from all the other spells. How many of those other spells were target spells? Do you really believe that your area spell should do more damage to a single mob than a targetted spell from another class? That is absurd. And i bet you would be hard-pressed to find another class that could do 1400 damage with 2 area spells, i guess maybe if you counted liches with 3 undead casting at the same time.
And oteb-- Rogues can hide, so can illusionists, so can anyone with a hide cloak. They can sneak, so can grey elves outdoors, and anywhere they want with an elvenkind. Assassinate? 1x per day on mobs relative to level, hardly a game breaker. Disarm is about as useful as hitall, you can't really waste your time with it in a serious fight. Pick? Comeon, your grasping at straws. If they were really as good as you say they are, then how come rogues are hardly in groups, and even more rarely is there more than 1. And we ALL know rangers dont get groups. Why? Who needs em! We got invokers who do 1400 damage to each mob with 2 spells! So thats what 8 rounds? you know how much damage a rogue does in 8 rounds, after all the parries and dodges and shieldblocks and ripostes? Probably about 1400 if they are level 50 and stacked, but only to 1 mob. There's a huge seperation between a rogue doing damage and a voker doing damage, you can pretend it doesn't exist but the rest of us know that it does, and you better beleive all the leaders do. Are area spells in general too powerful? Probably, but like corth said, the invokers are the most extreme example of that, so they get called out. I wouldn't worry about it tho, this has been a subject of debate for 6 months and nothing has changed yet, so its pretty obvious the gods agree with you, not me.


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Postby oteb » Sat Nov 30, 2002 4:16 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B> Thats like saying druids can heal almost as well as clerics, or that rangers can tank almost as well as warriors.

Do you really believe that your area spell should do more damage to a single mob than a targetted spell from another class? That is absurd.

And oteb-- Rogues can hide, so can illusionists, so can anyone with a hide cloak. They can sneak, so can grey elves outdoors, and anywhere they want with an elvenkind.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. Creeping Doom does more damage than meteor swarm (second best voker spell).
2. Yes i think inferno should do more damage than target nukes from other classes. Vokers are meant for damage. No other class sole purpose is delivering damage.
3. Dunno if you playing naive here.. We know that its a combination of sneak and hide that makes rogue. And maybe for that reason there are no elven illusionists. Right now only roguelike casters we have are Poxopeco and Corth and i think that sneak on volod should break illusionsts hide.


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[This message has been edited by oteb (edited 11-29-2002).]
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Postby Corth » Sat Nov 30, 2002 4:42 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by oteb:
<B> 2. Yes i think inferno should do more damage than target nukes from other classes. Vokers are meant for damage. No other class sole purpose is delivering damage.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You still haven't explained why the mud NEEDS a class who's only purpose is to deal damage. You keep talking about how the other classes do plenty of damage. So why do we need invokers if the other classes can cover what invokers do?

Lets envision a world without invokers. Hey guess what, all the old zones are still doable! They aren't ridiculously easy anymore.. true, but hey, the mud isn't irreversibly broken! And since zones like jot, cc, brass, and tf, arent a JOKE anymore, we can justify making the melee classes useful!

If we don't remove invokers then the eq in those zones should probably be downgraded because the stats are spanky and the zones are a fucking joke nowadays cause of all the area damage we do.

Considering that every class has damage capabilities, that we do so much damage that we can't make rogues and rangers useful, for the life of me i cant understand why we need a class who's only purpose is to spam out atomic bombs.

So I have given two reasons to get rid of them. We make rogues and rangers useful, and zones that used to be challenging once again deserve the spanky eq that loads there. Now someone, PLEASE, tell me a reason why exactly we need invokers...

Corth

[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 11-30-2002).]
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Postby Daz » Sat Nov 30, 2002 4:50 am

bring back monks, mercs, zerkers.
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Postby oteb » Sat Nov 30, 2002 5:08 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B> You still haven't explained why the mud NEEDS a class who's only purpose is to deal damage. You keep talking about how the other classes do plenty of damage. So why do we need invokers if the other classes can cover what invokers do?

Lets envision a world without invokers. Hey guess what, all the old zones are still doable! They aren't ridiculously easy anymore.. true, but hey, the mud isn't irreversibly broken! And since zones like jot, cc, brass, and tf, arent a JOKE anymore, we can justify making the melee classes useful!

If we don't remove invokers then the eq in those zones should probably be downgraded because the stats are spanky and the zones are a fucking joke nowadays cause of all the area damage we do.

Considering that every class has damage capabilities, that we do so much damage that we can't make rogues and rangers useful, for the life of me i cant understand why we need a class who's only purpose is to do even more damage.

So I have just given a bunch of reasons to get rid of them. We make rogues and rangers useful, and zones that used to be challenging once again deserve the spanky eq that loads there. Now someone, PLEASE, tell me a reason why exactly we need invokers...

Corth

[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 11-30-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

beacuse:
-imms have chosen to make specialized mages
-there are ppl who play them
-there are ppl who want to enjoy game being semiafk and not to play a ranger :P
-it makes sense in a world full of magic.
-if there are no vokers expect clouds would be beefed up:P


seriously tho: why to remove a class when there is an option to lower damage by removing or making weaker other classes areas.
Corth. did you make your class to able to spank mobs with area? I did. Why remove mine not yours?
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[This message has been edited by oteb (edited 11-30-2002).]
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Postby Glorishan » Sat Nov 30, 2002 6:50 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zoldren:
I think its funny 3/4 of this thread is flaming invokers because they do to much damage, and yes tahts all they do, but when you say other classes do almost as much damage as them it gets ignored and invoker bashing begins again.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It gets ignored when you say other classes do almost as much damage as invokers because it's simply not true. And Corth is right when he compares them to Monks, and that monks at least had to zone to get better eq to do major damage (again, a small percentage of what vokers do now).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zoldren:
nobody complains a healer heals to much from one spell, or an enchanter dscale lasts threw a hard fight, why do you complain when an invoker does in your words, to much damage from one spell.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually, I, a cleric for many years now, am a big advocate for reducing the amount of hps recovered by a full heal. Clerics need a downgrade. It's the class I "like" as you put it, and yet I am not quite in my desire to have their abilities reduced. People 'do' complain about dscales, though you seem to gloss over it. People complain that tanks aren't tanks without the help of buff spells like dscales. People complain about invokers because with the addition of an invoker in the group (newbie power leveled to 50 or otherwise), fights that could be very challenging are steam rolled with very little use of strategy, but rather with just brute force.

It's unfortunate that this one-trick pony class is so enjoyed by so many, because it truely does appear (in my eyes, as well as others) to be one of the best solutions (or at least one of the best first steps) to balancing out damage. Area makers are forced to give mobs a TON of hps just to compensate for the use of invokers, which makes it very difficult for them to make creative fights. Group A enters, group A nukes the crap out of the room, group A loots.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Oteb: (in response to why invokers should be left in the game)
<B>beacuse:
-imms have chosen to make specialized mages</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The point of this discussion is to try to bring very serious problems to the attention of the imms. They are people too, and as such are not always able to see an issue from as many angles as the entire player base combined.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Oteb:
-there are ppl who want to enjoy game being semiafk and not to play a ranger :P</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This right here is only proving the point that invokers are a simple-minded class (not the people who play them, once again, the class). There is a constant search to try to rework the ranger class, and as such they have developed several new capabilities. However, they are still unwanted due to the fact that melee damage simply cannot be upgraded as a result of invokers being in the game, it would make that which is already easy even easier.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Oteb:
Corth. did you make your class to able to spank mobs with area? I did. Why remove mine not yours?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why remove invokers instead of illusionists? Because the simple fact that invokers exist creates so many issues, and solves so few problems that couldn't be solved elsewhere (balancing melee damage, which by eliminating invokers, you would actually be making a good first step in doing so). Before you go off on how far from balance illusionists are, you have to remember something. Illusionists aren't over-powered...Corth (and maybe one other) is. In the case of the illusionist, it's the player that makes the class. That's not the case with invokers.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by a bunch of people:
Bring back monks.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Quiet, you. Image

Now understand, any time a class has been reworked or removed, those who play that particular class aren't simply deleted. They are changed. Conjurers were made elementalists, for example. I'm sure, in the event that invokers 'were' removed, they would be given the choice of chosing another mage.

At any rate, removing invokers would: allow several other classes to be made useful again, allow for more creativity in the style of fights in both old and new zones, make old zones challenging again, and unfortunately upset a few people. But what's good for the individual is not always good for the many.

Glorishan - Up much later than he should be.


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Postby Sarkhon » Sat Nov 30, 2002 7:09 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
Yes, monks were removed mid wipe. But no, they were not deleted, they were changed into i think warriors </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nah bud, you got it mixed up Image Monks were intact until Toril wiped, and got the big axe in the interim between that and Soj2 -- which is why I rolled my dorky Dorf/War for my very brief stay on Soj2.

I think that you were thinking of Zerkers which were deleted mid-wipe, and if i remember correctly, were all changed into warriors (though it could have been assassins, my memory is hazy) ... figured i'd save you some contrived flames for your minor lapse of memory Image

Monks > All.
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Postby oteb » Sat Nov 30, 2002 7:18 am

What i meant was, why remove my (area spells) not yours. Pardon my poor english if I didn't menage to make my point.

I agree that casters do too much damage but I still think we can achieve same goal by getting rid of other classes nukes. In most cases invoker in group doesn't contribute to more than 1/4-1/3 of area damage.
I agree that vokers are one dimensional and boring to play. I would make an alt if leveling caster to 50 wasnt such a pain.

*Continues to collect wands for pleveling alt*



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Postby Xebes » Sat Nov 30, 2002 7:39 am

It's actually pretty simple, oteb.

Yank vokers and we yank 1/4-1/3 (as you said) of spell damage.

Yank areaspells of all otehr classes and you just replace another 1-2 people in the group that USED to be even somewhat useful (example: rogue, ranger, druid, etc) with another couple of invokers. And you have the same problem you had before.

But if a group had one invoker to begin with and invokers were removed, then you can't just add another player of one more class and get the same damage output. (To clarify: after seeing lich damage liches probably could almost replace invokers, but considering the difficulty of questing a lich vs. leveling a voker, it becomes not _that_ serious of an issue)

So: nerf damage of other classes = replace one player with another invoker. Same problem with spamming areas and damage.

Or: remove invoker areaspells = lower group damage output by quite a chunk, in addition: allows melee to be upgraded without zones being complete cakewalks, also adds a bit more to the reward in playing a lich.

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Postby Dizzin » Sat Nov 30, 2002 7:53 am

I had never thought of actually totally removing Invokers from the game before Glorishan brought it up. Frankly, I can see how it would help bring balance to the mud. Like Corth has pointed out, we've all done the zones without invokers before and still can with some increase of risk to justify our reward.

That said, I've never really seen the great imbalance people talk about from having vokers in zone groups, aside from the obvious uselessness of melee vs casters. But this isn't just invokers of course. I, like Zold have been in a gatehouse fight where I've been lucky to get 2-3 Infernoes off, and all the mobs are dead. Shamans, Squids, Liches with full pets all can do an insane amount of damage, and DO. And after playing around with a decent level illusionist, I've gotta say, they're a more gamebreaking class than most, especially with sneak equipment. (God Damn no-feet snakes!)

Of course, I'm mainly for the removal of vokers because I'd drool over the chance to turn my 50 invoker into a 50 elementalist... :P
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Postby Mplor » Sat Nov 30, 2002 8:05 am

Yes, monks died the day Toril died. However, the original monk died long before that. Monks got a serious downgrade right around the time that the Sojourn 1 era was winding down (timeframe right?) and was largely abandoned by most players. It wasn't until the heyday of Toril that monks became popular again, because of the abundance of hit/dam eq floating around, the giant increase in damage-based experience (to curtail twinking lowbies just by grouping them) which made the new monks absurdly easy to level, and also monks' unparalelled strength vs. Tiamat.

Monks were essentially the Tiamat-killers, and I honestly think that is a significant part of the reason Miax & Co. ganked em. You know how sensitive they can be about Tiamat. *shrug*

As for Invokers, I think the game would be more fun for the majority of players if Invokers, as they currently exist, were gone. Yes, I did say that and I haven't been drinking, I swear officer.

Mp

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Postby Jenera » Sat Nov 30, 2002 12:00 pm

Sigh. I've been playing an invoker since early Sojourn 2 and though I have tried every class in the game available right now except for Dire Raiders and Psionicists, I have yet to find a class I enjoy playing more than an invoker. I have nothing to say against the very logical arguments of all of you who have posted on this thread. Most of you make complete sense. Invokers are a one-dimensional class and it doesn't take much skill to play them. Hell, I've gone to zones, listening to what the leader wants everyone to do and just sat hitting macros for my spells while half asleep because of the time difference. When the zone is done, I get complimented on doing a good job even.

I like to call myself a "walking machine gun", we break easy but sheesh we cause a lot of pain. The game wouldn't miss much if invokers were taken out. It also wouldn't miss much if any other class was taken out either for the reason that we as people learn to adapt things to our advantage. It's human nature. Invokers get picked on right now because we do only one thing, while other classes have multiple tasks. Someone would eventually figure out a way to make the next battle easier and then would pick another class or spell or skill to pick on.

My voice as a player has never been very loud, but I would really miss this class if I was forced to play another.

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Postby Tanji Smanji » Sat Nov 30, 2002 12:24 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by oteb:
<B>
A decent equipped hitter with haste outdamages a voker on a single mob. If mob has MR there is a large gap between rogue/ranger damage and that done by a voker.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry but you are wrong. The only time this can become close to true is if you get some serious MR problems, which can be handled with flux/hex/ect. Last I checked there's no spell that makes mob defenses work less (the 68 stumble/fumble tests pretty much proved that). Now I have pretty nice gear and max melee skills and there's no way I could compete with an invoker single target. I doubt even a monk of old could.

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Postby cherzra » Sat Nov 30, 2002 12:31 pm

The problem is not invokers, the problem is that there are so many other classes that are also invokers.

Liches, necromancers, shamans, elementalists and druids are all almost as effective as invokers when it comes to area spells. They shouldn't be, and not by far.

part 1 of the solution: downgrade area spells for these "other" classes.

Secondly, you should not be able to do full damage naked, and if you want to obliterate everything there should be some price you pay. Ergo: some system where spell damage is based on +hit or save_rod would go a long way in making zones tougher, creating more area maker options and making nukers in general less one-dimensional equipment wise.

part 2 of the solution: base spell damage on an attribute that is not str, pow, int, whatever. E.g. hitroll or save_rod.

It isn't an issue whether or not an invoker can solo something. Nor is it an issue whether or not a rogue can outdamage an invoker against a single mob, because invokers hurt 8 other mobs at the same time. The problem is you can bring a necro, 2 shamans, an invoker and a druid, and the combined area dam is insane.
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Postby Yayaril » Sat Nov 30, 2002 12:56 pm

I think if you're bored that the mobs die too fast, you should bring less invokers. Ta-dah!

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-Yayaril
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Sat Nov 30, 2002 1:36 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Yayaril:
<B>I think if you're bored that the mobs die too fast, you should bring less invokers. Ta-dah!

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yayaril, that is very insightful. Of course, the people who come up with "arguments" along the lines of

"Hey, I don't like your class because my omniscience and limitless wisdom have given me authority sufficient to decree it is destroying the gaming environment. Hence delete yourselves at once, remove yourselves from our community and never inflict your miserable presence upon us again, you filth"

will never accept this, because nothing less than a forced deletion of some of the best players of the MUD will satisfy them.

Xisiqomelir - I'm not listening because it's not FAIR

[This message has been edited by Xisiqomelir (edited 11-30-2002).]
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Postby Sarvis » Sat Nov 30, 2002 2:36 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Yayaril:
<B>I think if you're bored that the mobs die too fast, you should bring less invokers. Ta-dah!

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Translation: If you are bored because an overpowered class causes mobs to die to fast, don't bring them so that your group can get spanked and never want to follow you again since you chose to go in underpowered in a game system that is designed around aforementioned overpowered class.


(I should probably have waited until after a shower to translate that, but I'm sure you get the idea.)

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Postby Snurgt » Sat Nov 30, 2002 2:46 pm

Well I think spell feedback was meant to prevent groups of 15 nukers from rolling zones, but its just not working as intended.

Maybe fix spell feedback to work differently so you have to take more melee.



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Postby Malacar » Sat Nov 30, 2002 3:33 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Xisiqomelir:
<B> Yayaril, that is very insightful. Of course, the people who come up with "arguments" along the lines of

"Hey, I don't like your class because my omniscience and limitless wisdom have given me authority sufficient to decree it is destroying the gaming environment. Hence delete yourselves at once, remove yourselves from our community and never inflict your miserable presence upon us again, you filth"</B>

will never accept this, because nothing less than a forced deletion of some of the best players of the MUD will satisfy them.

Xisiqomelir - I'm not listening because it's not FAIR

[This message has been edited by Xisiqomelir (edited 11-30-2002).]
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I love these responses. Instead of reading a post and hearing valid points, Like Jenera did, you'd rather be a baby, stick your fingers in your ears, and hear what you want.

Life doesn't work that way, so why should a game?

The points brought forth here are valid, even if they have different viewpoints. Instead of stuffing your fingers in your ears and screaming "lalalalala i love it don't change it" realize that some points might be valid, have the brains and balls to come forth with some counterpoints like Cherzra and a few others did.

You're just adding spam to a long and complicated thread with a very valid point to it. Don't demean it with garbage.

Sorry if this is offensive, but there you go. It's me.

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Postby Zoldren » Sat Nov 30, 2002 4:26 pm

First I would like to note, that when all possible i shelf my invoker because he cant do 1/2 the things my illus can do, and he bores me because i cant do those things

It gets ignored when you say other classes do almost as much damage as invokers because it's simply not true. And Corth is right when he compares them to Monks, and that monks at least had to zone to get better eq to do major damage (again, a small percentage of what vokers do now).

i shall respond with cherzra's response it is fitting. if you think its not true you need to open your eyes. note he doesnt say nor have i the same damage we both sam dam near the same.

<B>The problem is not invokers, the problem is that there are so many other classes that are also invokers.
Liches, necromancers, shamans, elementalists and druids are all almost as effective as invokers when it comes to area spells. They shouldn't be, and not by far.
</B>

People 'do' complain about dscales, though you seem to gloss over it

they complain it doesnt last long enough, or that they need it, i have never heard anyone complain it lasts to long like i said earlier.

People complain that tanks aren't tanks without the help of buff spells like dscales
Why remove invokers instead of illusionists? Because the simple fact that invokers exist creates so many issues, and solves so few problems that couldn't be solved elsewhere (balancing melee damage, which by eliminating invokers, you would actually be making a good first step in doing so). Before you go off on how far from balance illusionists are, you have to remember something. Illusionists aren't over-powered...Corth (and maybe one other) is. In the case of the illusionist, it's the player that makes the class. That's not the case with invokers.

yet you want to keep illusinoists and get ride of invokers? hmmm just one more spell up

you need to re-evaluate the situation if you say Illus arnt over powered, being i know i would rather play my illus over my invoker, and am pretty sure diz would do the same... if your saying invokers are so dam uber shouldnt we be wanting to play them?

in my opinoin the only non over powered illusionist is the illusionist who only does displace for groups and/or doesnt know how to play his/her class


<B>
Of course, I'm mainly for the removal of vokers because I'd drool over the chance to turn my 50 invoker into a 50 elementalist... :P </B>

that would be sweet, if they where removed.


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Postby Ragorn » Sat Nov 30, 2002 6:36 pm

Keep something in mind... if Invokers are removed and current players change classes, you will have a bunch of "Level 50 noobs" as you like to call them running around the mud. 90% of the reason most of you are against lowering exp tables is because you're afraid of people plevelling too fast and not learning their class. Imagine what will happen then if 20% of the mages on the mud are suddenly brand new level 50s.

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Postby Sarkhon » Sat Nov 30, 2002 6:57 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mplor:
Yes, monks died the day Toril died. However, the original monk died long before that. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sup Mp Image Yah, I remember the tanking monk quite well, I was still playing my warrior at the time and I remember having people like Rathipon or Quino as primary tanks for xp over myself ... ehe ... so yah, the original monk was drastically altered mid-wipe, but it certainly wasnt removed entirely
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Postby Iktar » Sat Nov 30, 2002 7:48 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
<B>The problem is not invokers, the problem is that there are so many other classes that are also invokers.

Liches, necromancers, shamans, elementalists and druids are all almost as effective as invokers when it comes to area spells. They shouldn't be, and not by far.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i strongly disagree with that comment.
i can't say anything for lich, shamans, or necro. but for elementalists. we are nowhere near good as invoker when it comes to area spells. best area i can carry as elementalist is lava burst, fire or icewave. first, lavaburst isn't used 70% of time because of two reasons:
1) its fire based spell
2) elemental ward is usually carried instead of lava burst for zones.

fire and icewave can prolly match weaker voker area but even that is only about 7 shots at lvl 50 or so.
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Postby thanuk » Sat Nov 30, 2002 8:29 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Xisiqomelir:
<B> Yayaril, that is very insightful. Of course, the people who come up with "arguments" along the lines of

"Hey, I don't like your class because my omniscience and limitless wisdom have given me authority sufficient to decree it is destroying the gaming environment. Hence delete yourselves at once, remove yourselves from our community and never inflict your miserable presence upon us again, you filth"</B>

will never accept this, because nothing less than a forced deletion of some of the best players of the MUD will satisfy them.

Xisiqomelir - I'm not listening because it's not FAIR

[This message has been edited by Xisiqomelir (edited 11-30-2002).]

</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

wow. you have de-railed.



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Thanuk Pantherclaw
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Sat Nov 30, 2002 11:48 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B> wow. you have de-railed.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not at all Thanuk. Here is what all of you have said.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Glorishan:
<B>If you ask me, downgrading invokers isn't the solution...What is? Well, eliminating the entire class is.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B> Amen. I agree with everything you say. I'd love to see invokers given a choice to become any of the other mage classes and that would be the end of it...
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B>When it gets down to it, invoker is just the monk class with mem time. The closest this mud ever came to balance was after monks got pulled. 1+1=?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarkhon:
<B>Solution: Remove Invokers and put Monks back in
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mplor:
<B>As for Invokers, I think the game would be more fun for the majority of players if Invokers, as they currently exist, were gone.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Note that apart from Corth, no one has given any suggestion at all about what would be become of the Invokers thus deleted. I don't agree even with him, but at least he spared a little thought for the people currently playing a class that his plans want drastically altered or perhaps removed.

Since the train of thought stops at "REMOVE Invokers" I will list your options as to how to deal with people currently playing them.

1) EXPUNGED

The Invoker class is removed as a rollable option, all current Invoker pfiles are deleted, all time and effort put into them is forever lost.

(This is ONLY reason why I am protesting as strongly as I am. Apart from Corth no one has given any mention of what will happen to current Invokers, so I am assuming this is what all of you want until you say otherwise)

2. TRANSMOGRIFIED

All current Invokers are given an option to become another class. Choice of class, whether equipment can be transferred, and whether skills must be quested again are up for discussion.

3. ADJUSTED

Invokers stay as Invokers, but checks are added to limit the damage they do. The memtime penalty, slots per spell circle, cast times, spell components, stat/save/attribute linking (YUCK), mob shrug increase and straightfoward reduction are all options.

4. PRESERVED

Since we have artifact items, why not an artifact class? The option to roll new Invokers is removed, but current Invokers stay as they are.

5. UNTOUCHED

No changes.

There, now you can carry on lobbying for Invoker removal, just multiple-choice a number at the end. (REMOVE Invokers!!! [2]) I will still disagree with you, but at least I'll know you've given some thought to the players whose very classes you want changed, and I'll try to be less melodramatic in my writing. Image

p.s. Malacar, thank you for your ad hominem attack. Perhaps you would like to call me stupid too?

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"I know you like to believe fairy tales about how rude and unfair evils are, but keep them on your side of Baldur's Gate."

[This message has been edited by Xisiqomelir (edited 11-30-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Xisiqomelir (edited 11-30-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Xisiqomelir (edited 11-30-2002).]
Corth
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Postby Corth » Sun Dec 01, 2002 1:02 am

This isn't about screwing people over, its about balancing the mud. Reasonable people can disagree about whether removing invokers would in fact balance the mud, but no reasonable person would suggest that invokers should be deleted without any compensation for the people that play them. I submit that this point has not been brought up much because of how obvious it is rather then a lack of caring.

Corth

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Goddamned slippery mage.
Xisiqomelir
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Sun Dec 01, 2002 1:17 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>This isn't about screwing people over, its about balancing the mud. Reasonable people can disagree about whether removing invokers would in fact balance the mud, but no reasonable person would suggest that invokers should be deleted without any compensation for the people that play them. I submit that this point has not been brought up much because of how obvious it is rather then a lack of caring.

Corth

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The irony here is that you are the only person who suggested a proper course of reimbursement, and hence are the person least obligated to supply a line of reasoning for the lack of such thought on the part of others.

Kudos to you, Corth.


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"I know you like to believe fairy tales about how rude and unfair evils are, but keep them on your side of Baldur's Gate."
Zoldren
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Postby Zoldren » Sun Dec 01, 2002 1:37 am

my question is everyone admits EVERYONE does to much area damage, well isnt that in itself a problem? only invokers should do "massive" amounts of area damage, not everyone.

when that is addressed i would then seriously consider change/removal of invokers until then its a mute point to address invokers as to much damage

saying invokers do to much damage when they get 2-3 of their "massive damage" spells of on "hard" fights, its not the invoker damage thats over powered its every other area'rs spells that are over powered not the invokers, removal of invokers at this stage will do nothing for the imbalace of area spells

if like i said everyones, maybe maybe not invokers damage was downed, i would first suggest everyones but invokers areas downed, then if it was still to much then down invokers damage too. but as it is, others CAN and DO almost as much area damage as invokers, hence the "joke" fights where as when its just invokers doing the massive area damage you have no more imbalance. or shouldnt in theory :P

PS. sorry if any of my points seem angry or mean towards anyone they arnt meant be to nor directed at anyone, remebering these are just opinions and we all know what they are like Image

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MoM-D
Yayaril
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Postby Yayaril » Sun Dec 01, 2002 1:57 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarvis:
<B> Translation: If you are bored because an overpowered class causes mobs to die to fast, don't bring them so that your group can get spanked and never want to follow you again since you chose to go in underpowered in a game system that is designed around aforementioned overpowered class.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you're saying that without invokers, zones are impossible. Oh contraire! I've done zones plenty of times without invokers and did just fine. On the other side of the coin, I've done zones with 2-3 invokers and gotten spanked. It's usually those invokers who die first when doing zones. They're a tad bit trigger happy =9



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-Yayaril
Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Sun Dec 01, 2002 2:05 am

Uhhhh, Xis, the reason nobody said anything about what should happen to the current invokers is that it's pretty fairly well known that staff wouldn't just delete them. This has happened before and invokers would be given options, nobody would just delete their pfiles. I don't know if it's ever happened that a whole class would be deleted, but if it has my apologies for speaking in ignorance, but it never would have occurred to me that the characters would just be deleted.
Xisiqomelir
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Sun Dec 01, 2002 2:06 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ashiwi:
Uhhhh, Xis, the reason nobody said anything about what should happen to the current invokers is that it's pretty fairly well known that staff wouldn't just delete them. This has happened before and invokers would be given options, nobody would just delete their pfiles. I don't know if it's ever happened that a whole class would be deleted, but if it has my apologies for speaking in ignorance, but it never would have occurred to me that the characters would just be deleted.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, but it has. Not here maybe, but definitely on other MUD's I've played, and always due to agitation on the part on envious players of other classes. Big part of why I switched Image


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"I know you like to believe fairy tales about how rude and unfair evils are, but keep them on your side of Baldur's Gate."
Daz
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Postby Daz » Sun Dec 01, 2002 3:09 am

we are all here because sojourn isn't like other muds.

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