Guilty until proven innocent - maybe.

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
old depok
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Postby old depok » Fri Dec 20, 2002 5:41 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>When illegal mexican immigrants start blowing up planes rather than working hard in restaurants, I'll be in favor of applying the same heightened scrutiny to their immigration status as well.


See? its equal opportunity...

Corth

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem is that once you apply a law in a manner that is not equal to ALL it is inherently discriminatory. Example, if police stop African Americans more than White Americans for not wearing their seat belt so that they can search their cars for drugs that is discrimination.

Laws need to be applied evenly. To do otherwise is to discriminate.
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Postby Corth » Fri Dec 20, 2002 5:41 pm

Depok,

You say that we should not undermine the civil liberties of american citizens. By definition, the people who were arrested are NOT citizens. And even the Constitutional rights of citizens are diminished in the face of national security concerns. I dont see you or anyone else complaining about the long-standing practice of randomly searching US citizens without probable cause when they enter the country through customs.

Corth

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Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Corth » Fri Dec 20, 2002 5:43 pm

Depok,

What I said about 'equal opportunity' was toungue-in-cheek. I recognize that the law requiring citizens of several arab countries to register is discriminatory. My argument is simply that it is justifiable discrimination.

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Goddamned slippery mage.
Jegzed
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Postby Jegzed » Fri Dec 20, 2002 5:45 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>Depok,

You say that we should not undermine the civil liberties of american citizens. By definition, the people who were arrested are NOT citizens. </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well.. technically US has agreements with most nations to treat their citizens the same as their own when inside the country. Most nations have these deals with other nations.




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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
old depok
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Postby old depok » Fri Dec 20, 2002 5:46 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>Depok,

You say that we should not undermine the civil liberties of american citizens. By definition, the people who were arrested are NOT citizens. And even the Constitutional rights of citizens are diminished in the face of national security concerns. I dont see you or anyone else complaining about the long-standing practice of randomly searching US citizens without probable cause when they enter the country through customs.

Corth

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What I said was we have to be careful NOT to undermine them. If they entered the country illegally then they should be punished.

What we have to be careful of is not just allowing the government broad powers that they can apply as they see fit. We have plenty of examples where that leads to problems.
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Postby old depok » Fri Dec 20, 2002 5:55 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>Depok,

What I said about 'equal opportunity' was toungue-in-cheek. I recognize that the law requiring citizens of several arab countries to register is discriminatory. My argument is simply that it is justifiable discrimination.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


The problem with the word justifiable is that it presupposes that what you did in the first place was wrong. I understand that there is a balance between national security and personal freedoms. The problem is who determines where that line is drawn?

The way that we treated/treat the people being held in Cuba in the manner in which we did/do does not make me comfortable with the people who are making the determination of what is "justifiable".
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Postby Corth » Fri Dec 20, 2002 5:55 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jegzed:
<B> Well.. technically US has agreements with most nations to treat their citizens the same as their own when inside the country. Most nations have these deals with other nations.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Snicker..

I'm not very knowledgable about the particulars of the thousands of international agreements entered into by the US. My gut instinct is that such agreements aren't as broad as you suggest they are. For instance, the US does not require its citizens to apply for a visa before entering the country. If we treat visitors to this country the same as citizens, it would follow that we could not impose a visa requirment on them. Of course, plenty of visitors are required to obtain a visa. Thus, in at least one immigration-related matter, this broad hypothetical agreement has a major exception. I would suggest that there are plenty of other such exceptions, particularly in matters relating to national soveriegnty and security. Assuming such agreements exist of course, which I'm willing to accept for arguments sake.

Corth


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Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Corth » Fri Dec 20, 2002 5:59 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by old depok:
<B>
The way that we treated/treat the people being held in Cuba in the manner in which we did/do does not make me comfortable with the people who are making the determination of what is "justifiable".
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


What does Cuba have to do with it? Ohhh thats where the suspected al-qaeda terrorists are being housed and fed at our expense! Your right, its horrible that they are given three square meals a day while we try to figure out if they are a danger to the human race. We should probably house them at club-med.

I'm gonna bow out of this conversation now.. as usual, the issue that was originally interesting has become obscured by people trying to make a point, any point, just so they can say they said something!

Corth


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Goddamned slippery mage.
Jegzed
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Postby Jegzed » Fri Dec 20, 2002 5:59 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B> Snicker..

I'm not very knowledgable about the particulars of the thousands of international agreements entered into by the US. My gut instinct is that such agreements aren't as broad as you suggest they are. For instance, the US does not require its citizens to apply for a visa before entering the country. If we treat visitors to this country the same as citizens, it would follow that we could not impose a visa requirment on them. Of course, plenty of visitors are required to obtain a visa. Thus, in at least one immigration-related matter, this broad hypothetical agreement has a major exception. I would suggest that there are plenty of other such exceptions, particularly in matters relating to national soveriegnty and security. Assuming such agreements exist of course, which I'm willing to accept for arguments sake.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, thats not what I meant.

I meant that if you as Canadian in US gets arrested as suspect for a crime, then you have the same legal rights as a US citizen UNTIL you are proven guilty.
(That is if you are LEGALLY in the country.)

ie, you can't just round up all japanese or irish legal residents of the USA and put them in a camp without letting them talk to a lawyer etc..

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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition

[This message has been edited by Jegzed (edited 12-20-2002).]
old depok
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Postby old depok » Fri Dec 20, 2002 6:06 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>
What does Cuba have to do with it? Ohhh thats where the suspected al-qaeda terrorists are being housed and fed at our expense! Your right, its horrible that they are given three square meals a day while we try to figure out if they are a danger to the human race. We should probably house them at club-med.

I'm gonna bow out of this conversation now.. as usual, the issue that was originally interesting has become obscured by people trying to make a point, any point, just so they can say they said something!

Corth


</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see, so if I suspect you are a terrorist then I can lock you up a cell 6' x 6', prevent you from having access to council, prevent you from speaking to representatives from your government, not charge you with a crime, interogate you for as long as I want, and hold you for months on end?

Your right, I am sure that they are enjoying the three meals a day and thanking us for this glorious opportunity to travel!

And yes, the manner in which we treat these people reflects on how the "justified discrimination" you refer to is applied. If we are using this poor judgement about these people than it stands to reason that it is not going to improve the next time.
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Postby belleshel » Fri Dec 20, 2002 6:09 pm

Wow..I think I'm lost..weren't we talking about Thanuk's mullet just a few minutes ago...

Shouldn't mullet's require a Visa?
Guest

Postby Guest » Fri Dec 20, 2002 6:11 pm

Fact: Of the 19 hijackers, all of them were of arabic descent.

Fact: All of them were citizens of either Saudi Arabia or Egypt.

Fact: Iranians are NOT arabs, they are persians. It's an entirely different ethnic line.

So, to claim that the US has a racist policy based on the actions of September 11th, you kinda have to ignore the fact in this case that the people being arrested aren't of the same ethnicity.

What the US has, is a policy of monitoring those persons living here in the US whose citizenship involves a country that is a known terrorist threat.

As much as the Europeans in this thread would like to attack the US for this policy, the governments of England and France have actually been more rabid over the last month or so in rousting these individuals, looking for plots.

To criticize the US, while European Union members are doing as much or more, is to ignore the problem in your own area and lash out at someone else, which is ridiculous.

The US, Britain, France, Germany, and I would guess virtually every EU country will be looking under every rock for the foreseeable future, due to the grave threat illuminated by September 11th.

What Hitler did not have, as evidence, was Jewish states (there weren't any) making threats to the lives of his citizens. No one can cite a single incident between 1932 and the final solution of a Jewish terrorist act. In fact, it was rather stupid of them NOT to conduct such activities. But that's another matter.

What Hitler used to fuel the fire was the general belief in Europe (which by the way still exists) that the Jews were troublemakers. Resentment of Jewish bankers (hey folks, the Catholics brought them in to avoid usary issues in their religion) who seemed to have more money than the average folks at the time, a sense of the 'difference' between their religions, and a host of other issues created the opportunity.

If you don't think Europe has had a virulent anti-semetic strain throughout history, I suggest you look up that paragon of European values, France. Dreyfuss. Nuff said.

Europeans getting up on a soapbox and blaming Israel for the tensions is just another example of the tendency to immediately blame the Jews. It's not technically racism, as the Jews aren't really an individual race per se. It's still not all that impressive.

If you want to know who to blame for the hostilities, look to the European nations who tried to maintain a grip on their colonies in the Middle East. Look at the deals that those Europeans made with the arabs and persians, and how they were then forgotten when the war was over.

If you want to throw stones, study your own history quite a bit better. Throwing stones at the US for tensions in the Middle East is the equivalent of blaming Britain for tensions between the US and Mexico, something that the nation of Britain had no control over at the time.


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Postby Corth » Fri Dec 20, 2002 6:13 pm

Bah, wouldn't let me bow out of the conversation would you depok.

Thats about the stupidest thing ive seen written here. Sorry to call a duck a duck.

The people in the cuban camps are prisoners of war. At one point we were justified in shooting them, which is a lot worse than holding them in a cell. When we captured them they became POWs under the Geneva Accords, which entitled them to a certain standard of treatment which nobody has suggested has been violated. Trust me, its much better to be in an American POW camp than say.. a vietnamese one.

Second, when i spoke about 'justifiable discrimination', i spoke of it in the context of the registration laws. I said that in my opinion, the law requiring specific groups of people in the US to register was discriminatory. I said that considering the fact that all of the terrorists from sept 11 came from these certain countries, it was justifiable to have heightened scrutiny on peoples from these countries. Why is it justifiable? Because any idiot who doesn't have his head stuck up his own politically correct ass can tell you that a native of Saudi Arabia is more likely to blow up a plane than someone from Canada.

Third, your nonsensical reply somehow equates the discrimination of the registration law with the cuban camps. The POWs in cuba are not there because of any discrimination. They are there because they are each individually suspected of being members of an organization whom we are at war with. There are europeans in that camp as well as arabs and persians. I.E. there is no discrimination on the basis of nationalisty. Your mixing apples and oranges by even bringing up cuba.

Corth

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Goddamned slippery mage.

[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 12-20-2002).]
Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Dec 20, 2002 6:14 pm

Well it seems we didn't round up all legal non-citizens, we rounded up the NON-legal ones, which was the original point being made, that we were treating guilty people as if they were guilty of something and shame on us.

As for treating them as if they were in their own country ... I suppose we should take up caning as a practice? Or shooting and stoning women? Ooooh, that's a good one, if a muslim woman comes over here and sleeps with somebody outside of marriage we should definitely kill her, that's MUCH better than feeding and housing people before deportation.
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Postby Jegzed » Fri Dec 20, 2002 6:28 pm

re: Iyachtu.

I believe I'm the only euro in this thread, and I'm kind of supporting the US line here.

There's plenty of americans in this thread slamming this policy though.


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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
Musi
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Postby Musi » Fri Dec 20, 2002 6:28 pm

Here's more gasoline for the fire

http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/dailynews/saudi_teachers021210.html

Is it ok to teach the youth of a nation it's ok to hate and kill civilians from a certain country?

I could say a lot more, but I'll bite my tongue. ouch Image

EDIT: I also forgot to post about a friend I lost to Sept. 11th. She wasn't in a plane, or in the towers, or even in the US. She lives in Mauritus, a very small island off the coast of Madagascar. Most of the people there are practicing Muslims.

When 9/11 happened, she felt very torn. She had friends in the US, and even her sister was LEGALLY here to get a doctorate. But her friends were happy the US "finally got what they deserved". She said they made her an outcast for sympathizing with us. She told them it wasn't right to just attack civilians and her friends told her to look at how many civilians the US has killed. She told me she was trying to not let them get the best of her, but it's evident that the peer pressure to hate all Americans everywhere and to cheer our deaths has enveloped her Image I haven't heard from her since the US started bombing Afghanistan.

(goes back to biting tongue)

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Musi "your happy little resser"

[This message has been edited by Musi (edited 12-20-2002).]
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Postby cherzra » Fri Dec 20, 2002 6:37 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>When we captured them they became POWs under the Geneva Accords, which entitled them to a certain standard of treatment which nobody has suggested has been violated.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is plain ingnorance. Your own government has refused to recognize them as POWs, so that they can be treated in any which way Dubya likes. Sickening, really. Sieg Heil!

Read the convention at http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm and see what they are all being denied.
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Postby old depok » Fri Dec 20, 2002 6:40 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>Bah, wouldn't let me bow out of the conversation would you depok.

Thats about the stupidest thing ive seen written here. Sorry to call a duck a duck.

The people in the cuban camps are prisoners of war. At one point we were justified in shooting them, which is a lot worse than holding them in a cell. When we captured them they became POWs under the Geneva Accords, which entitled them to a certain standard of treatment which nobody has suggested has been violated. Trust me, its much better to be in an American POW camp than say.. a vietnamese one.

Second, when i spoke about 'justifiable discrimination', i spoke of it in the context of the registration laws. I said that in my opinion, the law requiring specific groups of people in the US to register was discriminatory. I said that considering the fact that all of the terrorists from sept 11 came from these certain countries, it was justifiable to have heightened scrutiny on peoples from these countries. Why is it justifiable? Because any idiot who doesn't have his head stuck up his own politically correct ass can tell you that a native of Saudi Arabia is more likely to blow up a plane than someone from Canada.

Third, your nonsensical reply somehow equates the discrimination of the registration law with the cuban camps. The POWs in cuba are not there because of any discrimination. They are there because they are each individually suspected of being members of an organization whom we are at war with. There are europeans in that camp as well as arabs and persians. I.E. there is no discrimination on the basis of nationalisty. Your mixing apples and oranges by even bringing up cuba.

Corth

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Check your facts Corth. The people being held in Cuba are not prisoners of war. They were not accorded the rights under the Geneva Convention.

The Bush administration faught hard to avoid that determination because they would have then had to apply the rules of that convention to these people.

They were not all captured during combat as you make it sound. We recenetly let a number of these people go because they had "no involvement and were not considered a threat". So it is not as clear cut as you make it sound.

I will give you that the threat is greater from those people who are from Saudi Arabia. What I am afraid of is that we then make the leap that all people from Saudi Arabia blow up planes.
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Postby old depok » Fri Dec 20, 2002 6:50 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
<B> This is plain ingnorance. Your own government has refused to recognize them as POWs, so that they can be treated in any which way Dubya likes. Sickening, really. Sieg Heil!

Read the convention at http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm and see what they are all being denied.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And thus the cause for concern as to their judgement in applying "justified descrimination" to other areas of the law.

Keep in mind I am not an idealist. I know we give up some of our rights to enforce security. We just don't want to go too far because then we all lose.
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Postby old depok » Fri Dec 20, 2002 6:56 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Musi:
<B>Here's more gasoline for the fire

http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/wnt/dailynews/saudi_teachers021210.html

Is it ok to teach the youth of a nation it's ok to hate and kill civilians from a certain country?

I could say a lot more, but I'll bite my tongue. ouch Image

EDIT: I also forgot to post about a friend I lost to Sept. 11th. She wasn't in a plane, or in the towers, or even in the US. She lives in Mauritus, a very small island off the coast of Madagascar. Most of the people there are practicing Muslims.

When 9/11 happened, she felt very torn. She had friends in the US, and even her sister was LEGALLY here to get a doctorate. But her friends were happy the US "finally got what they deserved". She said they made her an outcast for sympathizing with us. She told them it wasn't right to just attack civilians and her friends told her to look at how many civilians the US has killed. She told me she was trying to not let them get the best of her, but it's evident that the peer pressure to hate all Americans everywhere and to cheer our deaths has enveloped her Image I haven't heard from her since the US started bombing Afghanistan.

(goes back to biting tongue)

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No thats not right either. Neither was it right for a Pakistani who was in the country legally and working towards becoming an American citizan to be killed in Texas after 9/11 for being Pakistani. Ignorance is ignorance no matter what it's dressed like.

Oh, and we were deporting his wife and children because they didn't have a sponsor anymore. I believe it took the Governor of the state to stay the deportation.

EDIT re read this Musi and realized it might sound as if it was incensitive to your friend. I was sorry to read about your friend here and hope that they are ok and will reconnect with you.

[This message has been edited by old depok (edited 12-20-2002).]
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Postby Corth » Fri Dec 20, 2002 7:01 pm

Depok..

Heres my mea culpa.. you are right. I did the research. They aren't considered prisoners of war.. and I can't think of any good reason why not. The bushies do tend to shoot themselves in the foot at times by giving people an easy way to criticize them. I cant think of anything more preposterous than to make up some sort of bullshit distinction between 'enemy combatant' and 'prisoner of war'. This is what happens when your lawyers are too smart for your own good...

That being said, the name you use to classify the prisoners does not at all effect the legitimacy of imprisoning them in the first place. If they are found to be innocent, as you noted, they are released. Until we can determine that each individual isn't an al qaeda soldier, they should be locked up as a pow, enemy combatant, or whatever the hell you want to call them. Just like how we arrest someone who is suspected of committing a murder and hold them in jail until they make bail, prove their innocence, or serve their sentence.

Corth

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Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Corth » Fri Dec 20, 2002 7:12 pm

what is justified discrimination?

You cant drink alcoholic beverages in this country until your 21 years old. That certainly discriminates against young people.

Men aren't allowed to loiter in the ladies room, or vice versa, unless they have a good reason like say, being in charge of cleaning it?

Not just anyone is entitled to a senior position at a government agency. When the secretary of state hires an adviser he/she is entitled to discriminate against people with less credentials by hiring the most qualified person.

People that cannot see are discriminated against harshly. They are not allowed to drive, or to operate heavy machinery. People who unfortunately have epilepsy are subject to the same discriminatory restrictions.

Foreign nationals who are legally living in the US are discriminated against insofar as they can legally be excluded from getting a job with certain governmental organizations, such as the police department.

The fact of the matter is discrimination very prevalent in the law. Much of it is very justifiable. I would suggest that every example I listed is a form of justifiable discrimination. It does little for the quality of the discussion in this thread to simply toss the word discrimination around as an implicitly bad thing without taking time to understand what it is and means.

Discrimination is generally considered 'bad' when it is done on the basis of race, sex, age, nationality, or sexual orientation. The people effected by the registration law are certainly being discriminated against on the basis of their nationality. There is no question about that. The question, then, is whether this is 'bad' discrimination. My argument is that in light of the reasonable national security concerns related to arabs and persians, discrimination against them, in this case a relatively minor registration requirement, is justifiable. How this relates to cuba, or god know what else, I just don't know....

Corth

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Goddamned slippery mage.

[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 12-20-2002).]
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Postby Rausrh » Fri Dec 20, 2002 7:24 pm

My question was not loaded at all.
I was looking for more detail on how you can rationalize the IRA killing innoicent people because the English were occuping their country, or any other reason for that matter. The question has a correct answer, correct by any sane measure anyways. I'll give you a hint: It's not to kill the muslim child.

To answer your question:
Theoriticaly I would kill him, only him. What does his family have to do with it? Realisticly, I would call the police and see him arrested. That is how it's done where I live.


p.s. Oh Daz, you are also insane, but we already knew that.

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Rausrh licks you.
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Postby thanuk » Fri Dec 20, 2002 9:20 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rausrh:
<B>My question was not loaded at all.
I was looking for more detail on how you can rationalize the IRA killing innoicent people because the English were occuping their country, or any other reason for that matter. The question has a correct answer, correct by any sane measure anyways. I'll give you a hint: It's not to kill the muslim child.

To answer your question:
Theoriticaly I would kill him, only him. What does his family have to do with it? Realisticly, I would call the police and see him arrested. That is how it's done where I live.


p.s. Oh Daz, you are also insane, but we already knew that.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all, i didnt rationalize anything, i just pointed out the difference between the situation in Ireland VS. current U.S. terrorist problems. Secondly, your question was loaded, and verymuch so, as there was no "none of the above" listed, you were trying to prove a rather moot point with some inane question. As for where you live, i dont really know where that is or what goes on there. I do know what goes on in the middle east, to a small extent, and i know even in their own country, it seems killing is acceptable. You should check this out if you think otherwise.

http://www.likud.nl/govern73.html

So in answer to your question, it is obviously O.K. to kill the muslim child, or at least that child's parents and countrymen seem to have no problem in doing so.


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Thanuk Pantherclaw
Udor says 'con doesnt do shit'

[This message has been edited by thanuk (edited 12-20-2002).]
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Postby Gurns » Fri Dec 20, 2002 11:17 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>They aren't considered prisoners of war.. and I can't think of any good reason why not.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The U.S. has signed various agreements which list conditions under which you can keep official "prisoners of war". I don't know what all is involved: I think it's adequate food, space, shelter, contact with relatives, protection from torture, can't be required to give more info than name/rank/serial number, maybe there's something about suficient uninterrupted sleep, or freedom to practice your relgion? I would expect some of our Sojourners in the military would have a better idea.

By declaring them "enemy combatants", none of those agreements apply. Dubya's advisors knew exactly what they were doing, and why.
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Postby Kifle » Sat Dec 21, 2002 1:01 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
please do not lump 'american' and 'christian' together, it is very offensive to some.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The truth hurts doesnt it daz.

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Postby Kifle » Sat Dec 21, 2002 1:09 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B> lets see now - terrorism as a way of life, suicide bombers, religious fanatics willing to die in order to kill other people, killing people for having differing views?

name that race?

african americans? asian americans? latino americans? oh, wait - no, it was foreign middle easterners who were in the country illegally. i see your point now, we should waste our government money screening everyone instead of those most likely to do it. that is very rational thinking in light of our current economic state.

you show me a black man preaching religious intolerance and convincing other black people to kill themselves to further these beliefs in today's america, THEN make sure those SAME african americans are in the country illegally, and we might have some ground to debate. as it is, lets read the headlines. how many terrorists in the last 2 years have been white/black/asian/hispanic compared to middle eastern?</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When did i say terrorists were a race of people daz...i am pretty sure i didnt, so please take your irrelevant posts back to that cobweb infested space between your ears, cuz i dont wanna read'em Image

Rofl as far as the gov. screening people...well isnt that what the INS is SUPPOSED TO DO IN THE FIRST PLACE? Yeah, I did think so. Yes there a millions of illegal asian immigrants in the us thanks to the triads and BTK's and other imfamous asain gangs. The point is, I pay my fucking taxes to goverment programs that decide to do their job AFTER something like this happens. Since this is the case, i want my fucking money back since they have the same retarded mindset as daz here.

Maybe I cant show you a black man that fits your description because i live in indiana where there are like 2 of them thanks to the ultra conservative nature of my local government. But what i can show you is a news story about 2 americans and a canadian found in afganistan protecting a weapons cache for the terrorists...or did you miss those 5 days of coverage? ANYBODY can be a terrorist you jackass, why pick on arabs...I have known quite a few really nice arabs that were in this country legaly and probably illegaly. On the other hand i have known a lot of asshole mexicans that were definatly in this country illegaly, but the government is only interested in putting their foot down on one of these groups. give me a fucking break. The US has always, and will always be a racist country.

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Postby Malacar » Sat Dec 21, 2002 1:09 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kifle:
<B> The truth hurts doesnt it daz.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uh, truth?

Do we live in the same country? I know exactly 1 christian. Lots of Catholics. I personally am Agnostic.

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Postby Kifle » Sat Dec 21, 2002 1:14 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
[BKifle - If you had ever been to prison you would realize that NOBODY gets treated well, regardless of their citizenship. Also understand that since they are not citizens of this country, the government is not really required to do anything for them, as they do not have the rights of a U.S. citizen. Just be happy they didnt pile them on tire rafts and push them out into the ocean.

[/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have been in jail, and I can tell you that there is a great degree of racism there. Especially with the guards. I have known 2 people that have went to prison for more than 5 years and they tell me it is worse there. My friend who was 17 when he went to prison, nice as hell and never got in fights, stabbed a man in the stomach with a pensil out of necessity. Now, if this nice guy gets attacked almost daily, think of what will happen to these guys who might not even be terrorists in the first place. The guards wont see them as anything else so will not protect them. Not even the little bit that they do the prisoners that are white. You know nothing on the subject so shut it.


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Postby Kifle » Sat Dec 21, 2002 1:35 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Malacar:
<B> Uh, truth?

Do we live in the same country? I know exactly 1 christian. Lots of Catholics. I personally am Agnostic.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


In God we trust. One nation under God. Shall I go on...

How many buddhist temples do you see in america...How many buddhist temples were going to get government funding from the bush administration. How many christian organizations were going to get funding from the bush administration?

Why can't we have gay marriges...why is oral/anal sex with a consenting partner illegal in some states? Why is prostitution illegal in almost all places in America?

I rest my case.


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[This message has been edited by Kifle (edited 12-20-2002).]
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Postby Salen » Sat Dec 21, 2002 2:01 am

Mal
Catholics are Christians.


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Postby Eza » Sat Dec 21, 2002 2:23 am

Kasula, I agree with you, our country has become a bunch of racists.

As to 9/11.. I'm sick of hearing about it. Yeah, a lot of people died, yeah it was tragic. Was it any less tragic than the other billions of people who have died for their causes, causes they really believe in (and just because they are different from ours doesn't make them wrong), throughout history? No. But it happened, and now we want everyone to hold our hands and tell us that everything will be ok.

US. The same people that have caused wars which killed more than a mere 3,000 people.

US. The ones that had the Salem Witch Trials, and other horrible events to decorate our past.

I could go on, but anyone who's sat through a U.S. History class knows the shit that our Country has done in the past.

We're no better than anyone else, and to think so is stupid and self grandizing.

Everyone through history has made mistakes, and it will keep happening because for some reason or another mankind actually believes that we are smart enough to make it, and that we know what we're doing. But we're not, and we sure as hell don't.

Personally, I can't wait for the world to end. Maybe next time we can get it right.

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Postby Zellin » Sat Dec 21, 2002 1:04 pm

For the love of God/Allah, lock this thread. Please.

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Postby Daz » Sat Dec 21, 2002 1:53 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kifle:
How many buddhist temples do you see in america...</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://kadampa.org/ustemple.htm
http://www.budtempchi.org/
http://samsara.law.cwru.edu/~cbt/
http://www.sonic.net/~enmanji/
http://home.pacbell.net/bsangha/
http://www.ekoji.org/
http://www.vhbt.org/
http://aztec.asu.edu/worship/azbuddhist/
http://www.seattlebetsuin.com/

that was about 2 minutes of searching - the first few results of more than 40 thousand returned.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Why can't we have gay marriges...why is oral/anal sex with a consenting partner illegal in some states? </font>

ALASKA Repealed effective 1980
CALIFORNIA Repealed effective 1976
COLORADO Repealed effective 1972
CONNECTICUT Repealed effective 1971
DELAWARE Repealed effective 1973
HAWAII Repealed effective 1973
ILLINOIS Repealed effective 1962
IOWA Repealed effective 1978
MAINE Repealed effective 1976
NEBRASKA Repealed effective 1978
NEVADA Repealed effective 1993
NEW HAMPSHIRE Repealed effective 1975
NEW JERSEY Repealed effective 1979
NEW MEXICO Repealed effective 1975
NORTH DAKOTA Repealed effective 1975
OHIO Repealed effective 1974
OREGON Repealed effective 1972
SOUTH DAKOTA Repealed effective 1977
VERMONT Repealed effective 1977
WASHINGTON Repealed effective 1976
WEST VIRGINIA Repealed effective 1976
WISCONSIN Repealed effective 1983
WYOMING Repealed effective 1977

KENTUCKY Held unconstitutional by state supreme Court 1992
LOUISIANNA Held unconstitutional by Orleans Parish Court.
MICHIGAN Held unconstitutional as applied to private, consensual adult behavior.
NEW YORK Held unconstitutional by state Supreme Court 1980.
PENNSYLVANIA Held unconstitutional by state Supreme Court 1980.
TEXAS Found unconstitutional by state Court of Appeals.

that's 29 out of 50 states . . .

oh, here is yours -
INDIANA Misdemeanor, Sexual Deviancy (defined as oral/genital or any anal contact).

Earlier effort to repeal said legalization might "give us an opportunity to study it more openly, and to see what causes it, in the hope that we can eventually eliminate it."

Note: I concede some confusion about Minnesota's state laws regarding anal sex laws with birds and foul.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Why is prostitution illegal in almost all places in America?</font>


http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000114.html


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I rest my case.</font>


I don't.



[This message has been edited by Daz (edited 12-21-2002).]
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Postby Daz » Sat Dec 21, 2002 1:59 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Eza:
<B>Kasula, I agree with you, our country has become a bunch of racists.

As to 9/11.. I'm sick of hearing about it. Yeah, a lot of people died, yeah it was tragic. Was it any less tragic than the other billions of people who have died for their causes, causes they really believe in (and just because they are different from ours doesn't make them wrong), throughout history? No. But it happened, and now we want everyone to hold our hands and tell us that everything will be ok.

US. The same people that have caused wars which killed more than a mere 3,000 people.

US. The ones that had the Salem Witch Trials, and other horrible events to decorate our past.

I could go on, but anyone who's sat through a U.S. History class knows the shit that our Country has done in the past.

We're no better than anyone else, and to think so is stupid and self grandizing.

Everyone through history has made mistakes, and it will keep happening because for some reason or another mankind actually believes that we are smart enough to make it, and that we know what we're doing. But we're not, and we sure as hell don't.

Personally, I can't wait for the world to end. Maybe next time we can get it right.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

eza, can you get on kasula's "get the hell out of my country" bus?

MOVE ON WITH YOUR LIFE. Hopefully, away from our great country. Why don't you go live in Iraq and write home about the long island ice tea and great barbeque weather.

the US causes wars? the US causes wars?

omg - wow, you really don't know anything about history did you? when they tough world history, were you busy trying to sue the school for not letting you sacrifice goats at lunch or something? did you ever go to a single day of world history?

you seriously want to blame the US for the world's violent history?

whatever country makes you happy, let us know so we can campaign to drop a fucking bomb on it.

[This message has been edited by Daz (edited 12-21-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Daz (edited 12-21-2002).]
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Postby Gerad » Sat Dec 21, 2002 2:34 pm

I am, thats right, generally in cases like this, what most people refer to as a complete asshole, so I am going to say what most people are thinking, but wont say, please bear with me as I trapse through this post, and snip it up and shred it like other people do.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Eza:
<B>Kasula, I agree with you, our country has become a bunch of racists.

As to 9/11.. I'm sick of hearing about it. Yeah, a lot of people died, yeah it was tragic. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B>

Your goddam right it was tragic. It was one of the worst things to happen in america in years. Has it happened elsewhere? Yes, but I doubt you even took a slight notice. Perhaps if we didnt have every motherfucking car dealership and retail store wiping their asses with the flag it wouldnt have become the commercial joke that it has.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
Was it any less tragic than the other billions of people who have died for their causes, causes they really believe in (and just because they are different from ours doesn't make them wrong), throughout history? No. But it happened, and now we want everyone to hold our hands and tell us that everything will be ok. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B>

No it wasnt. And if I got a wild hair up my ass, and decided to stab you in the eye with a dull, rusted fork, it wouldnt be any worse than the guy I stabbed in the eye with a dull, rusted fork last week. But I dont think you would like it very much.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
US. The same people that have caused wars which killed more than a mere 3,000 people.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B>

Wow, (inside joke) do you have 'air stuck in your head'? Please please please, respond, I beg of you, and tell me about all these wars the united states has started, so I can tear that post a new asshole, too.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
US. The ones that had the Salem Witch Trials, and other horrible events to decorate our past.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B>

Pagan, eh? Dont feel bad, I was there once. More on the point, at around that time that kind of thing happened all over the world, you cannot possibly single out 'america' as a modern day country for that incident. It happend, and you can blame misguided overzealous christians for it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
I could go on, but anyone who's sat through a U.S. History class knows the shit that our Country has done in the past.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B>

There is no way, after going through the rest of your post, that you payed attention in history class. You probably just,
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
sat through a U.S. History class
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B>
without paying attention.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
We're no better than anyone else, and to think so is stupid and self grandizing.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B>
But every country in the world thinks that they are the greatest and that everyone else is just some colored square on the map where savages live. Personally I dont, but most people do. Just ask Turxx.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
Everyone through history has made mistakes, and it will keep happening because for some reason or another mankind actually believes that we are smart enough to make it, and that we know what we're doing. But we're not, and we sure as hell don't.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B>
Mankind as a whole will never accomplish anything, mainly because people believe shit like that, specifically, that it is mankinds responsibility as a whole to accomplish something or change the world. Its up to you, and nobody else.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
Personally, I can't wait for the world to end. Maybe next time we can get it right.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B>
There is no next time, and you only get one chance, and then your fucking dead. You must face the fact that someday you are going to die, and that will be the end of it.


Its what you do, you, that makes a difference. If you want to change something, go make it happen.

But please, for the sake of the rest of us,

Educate yourself on the topic first.

Im such an asshole.

Gerad

edit: missed a /
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[This message has been edited by Gerad (edited 12-21-2002).]
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Postby goroz » Sat Dec 21, 2002 2:47 pm

The one way to keep immigrant crims down is to make exaples of them. If they are a known member of a terrorist sect such as al-quaeda dont let them sit in a prison of any type thats my tax dollars goin to nothing but a long drawn out trial that they dont deserve..send em back strap a claymore mine to them and make them wander down a few of those caves they like to hide in..maybe take a few of thier friends along with em..and to make things more interesting toss a video recorder to thier head so all of us in the U.S. can watch it on payperview..and dont give me that what if theyre not guilty crap. They claim to be al-quaeda, the excuse we werent on the planes isnt good enough "Guily by association"

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Postby Daz » Sat Dec 21, 2002 3:36 pm

I think america needs to bring back public executions. The world could use a few quarterings or hangings to realize we mean business. Let's start with the capital punishment junkies first.

I got the rope - did anyone here actually pay attention in boy scouts?
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Postby Zellin » Sat Dec 21, 2002 4:57 pm

Lock? Please?

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Postby Fura » Sat Dec 21, 2002 6:40 pm

You're right, locking this is probably a good idea. The Patriot Act seems to give others the right to look for anything they wish and to take action without requiring a warrant, and there seems to be a fair number of articles suggesting protesters are getting arrested even if they operate within prior rules. It's best, then, if Americans don't object to the way things are being run.
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Postby Zellin » Sat Dec 21, 2002 7:46 pm

I'm all for protest. I'm also against censorship on this board, but this thread has gone way too far. Go ahead and protest, but how about we do it without being offensive assholes, though? No one has anything to say here. No one wants to look at both sides of the issue. If you want something to protest, throw a dart. Everyone is acting out toward each other in terrible ways. There is no good guy or bad guy in this situation. The blatant hatred and rage in this thread is not protest. It's harmful ignorance.

General protection fault XEFV : 2002
The earth will shut down now.

Please reboot.

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Postby moritheil » Sun Dec 22, 2002 12:28 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Iyachtu:
<B>Fact: Iranians are NOT arabs, they are persians. It's an entirely different ethnic line.

So, to claim that the US has a racist policy based on the actions of September 11th, you kinda have to ignore the fact in this case that the people being arrested aren't of the same ethnicity.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you Itchy. Was wondering if anyone realized that Persians do not consider themselves to be Arabs.

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Postby Daz » Sun Dec 22, 2002 12:58 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zellin:
<B>Lock? Please?

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

you don't like what is being said? then leave.
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Postby Eza » Sun Dec 22, 2002 1:29 am

Daz, Gerad.. I don't know who pissed in your Wheaties, but let me tell you something.

I never once said I don't like this country, there's no other place I'd rather live. To think that the US has been an innocent bystander in all the wars we've been in is stupid though. Obviously we did something wrong to make people want to fight us, and us joining up to fight in those wars, killing of thousands of our own people is just as bad as them killing us.

Get off your high horse. You love this country so much? Fine, then let me do what I'm allowed to do and speak my mind.

My problem isn't with the US, it's with mankind in general, and your responses to what I said just reinforces my angst even more.

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Postby Kallinar » Sun Dec 22, 2002 2:48 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gerad:
<B>
Pagan, eh? Dont feel bad, I was there once.

There is no way, after going through the rest of your post, that you payed attention in history class.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Number one, for some people, being pagan isn't a trend or somethign to do when you are bored, it is their chosen and family religion.

Number two, if you have ever paid attention in a University level American History class (not come class taught by an underpaid reject at a community college or high school) you might be surprised at how many conflicts the U.S. actually did have a hand in.

Now I'm no ANTI U.S. policy person, and neither am I completely for everything my government does. If I had no problems with the way the government used its power i'd still be in the military. The point of this thread people, is that if you are not supposed to be here, then you will get booted out when they catch you, no matter what means they use to do so.

Hrmm..I wonder if 7-11 is hiring now...

A couple of final things, Happy Agnostica Malacar! Also, happy solstice to you wonderful pagans that don't taunt me with the "yer gonna burn in hell speech". Blessed be and all that to ya.

Kallinar likes pagans.

[This message has been edited by Kallinar (edited 12-21-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Kallinar (edited 12-21-2002).]
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Postby Salen » Sun Dec 22, 2002 3:49 am

Heh might I say Wow.
You should all stop. I am officially against 'the last silly comment made'.

Today's winner is

Obviously we did something wrong to make people want to fight us, and us joining up to fight in those wars, killing of thousands of our own people is just as bad as them killing us. - Eza

Out of ALL the US conflicts, I can think of 2 that could be viewed as 'Our fault', and 2 more that the cause is cloudy.

Civil War We kinda have to take the blame for that one.

Vietnam While our initial reasons were of good intent (helping French put down rebels) we let 'Mission Creep' enter in after the French got their asses handed to them for the 3rd time in a century (sucks to be French, but you already know that).

Mexican-American War is cloudy.

This all depends on who you believe 'started' it. Did U.S. build settlements on Mexican soil, did Mexico attack U.S. settlers inside U.S. borders?

Spanish-American War

Most recently the Maine has been re-examined and while not 100%, the explosion resembles an external blast (mine) followed by an internal blast (ammo). We may never know if the external blast was a Spanish attack or U.S. self-inflicted.

As for the rest of the U.S. activities
French-Indian (blame Britain)
Revolutionary War (see above)
War 1812 (see above)
WWI (Austria gets this one, no matter how hard they try to put blame on Germany)
WWII Europe (Austria again, Hitler wasn't German)
WWII Asia (Japan, though I think it could have been a misunderstanding. I hear China was overly critical of them not bringing passports when they visited Manchuria)
Grenada (Cuba gets this one, though it really shouldn't count.)
Panama (Panama itself gets this one. They {president of Panama} wanted him gone, but didn't have the manpower to do it.)
Kuwait (So Damn Insane gets this one. Is there any question?)
Afghanistan (Hrmm. This would prolly fall in 'cloudy' actually. The official line is, protect terrorists, and you loose your country; it is something that SHOULD have been done by ______________(insert Middle East country here) long before we ever went there.)

So the Jews OBVIOUSLY did something wrong, that's why they had to die

So the Chinese OBVIOUSLY did something that warranted Japanese invasion.

So the Russians OBVIOUSLY did something wrong (twice) that made France think they needed to be invaded.

Should I go on about the ' Obviously we did something wrong ' statement?

Nah I will cede the rest of my time to someone who thinks the can top Eza for silliest thing said.

(No this isn't a flame at Eza. The rest of you are just as capable of being emotionally driven into Dumbass statements, she just happened to be the one I noticed first.)


PS Remind me to sound off on the 'and us joining up to fight in those wars, killing of thousands of our own people is just as bad as them killing us.' part later on. If the post keeps going like it has I won't have time though.


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Postby Kifle » Sun Dec 22, 2002 8:35 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Daz:
<B> I don't.

[This message has been edited by Daz (edited 12-21-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hahah Daz, you name what 6 or 7 links to buddhist temples in the US. I have that many churces on my block alone in a town of maybe 13k people. I have done many searches for buddhist temples on my own because i wanted a buddhist wedding. There are like 13 or so in Indiana...13! Most of which are in Indianapolis. Did you forget about the government funding to christian organizations or our lovely mottos that just wont die? There is a good reason for that. It is because that would destroy what minute semblance of an argument you can muster from your lovely internet searches that we all so love to read.

It is funny that a lot of those laws were not repealed until the late seventies and early eighties. And some not even until the early ninties? So that gave us what, a bit over 20 years of being able to get legal oral pleasure? Thank you government! I could also go to a lovely internet site and pretend I know law also, but then again I could just read my law books downstairs because I was prelaw for a while. See, it kinda helps to know what you are talking about before hand...spouting off a few facts here and there can hardly be constituted as a legitimate argumant and will not stay up on its faulty foundation. A few facts wont go far.

Also, forgive me for not reading any of your links because, since I use dial-up, it would have taken way to long to read useless and irrelevent garbage. I have no idea what your post was about prostitution, but I am pretty damn sure it is illegal in most states, and I am pretty damn sure there is no justifiable reason other than religion to make it illegal.

If you don't see this country as being run by christians, and sometimes fanatics, you are blind and will argue about anything. If you don't also see the christian way of living and the christian agenda being pushed around by this government anytime they can, you are also blind and will argue about anything. It is until reletivly recently that things have started to look like they will change, but I really dont think it will go far.

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Postby Guest » Sun Dec 22, 2002 9:56 am

On the subject of the US causing wars:

1. Most of the wars the US has been involved in haven't been of their own making.
2. The US has increased the intensity of most of the wars it has joined in on.
3. The US has gotten very good at baiting other countries into taking actions that give us a cause for war.

When you look at the world wars, clearly the US was not the driving force behind either of them. In both cases, the US came in late. In the case of the second world war, contrary to popular american sentiment, our ground troops didn't actually accomplish much in comparison to the scale of the war (other than keeping the russians from marching into western europe farther).

What the US has really specialized in is taking small, localized wars and creating huge deals of them. The Korean and Vietnam wars are good examples of this. We decided, apparently, that they were extremely important (something about how the Russians were gonna take over the world by gaining influence over poor, destitute countries).

In Panama we went in and removed a man who we helped put in power. Basically, that one was our fault.

Grenada? Who the hell knows why we bothered with that, really.

Now... if you're gonna consider wars to mean conflicts that we weren't directly involved in with troops, oh well there's a WHOLE other can of worms... How about Nicaragua and El Salvador?

That's the list, if you wanna be critical of the US, that would be worthwhile.

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Gromikazer
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Postby Gromikazer » Mon Dec 23, 2002 4:08 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Salen:
<B>Mal
Catholics are Christians.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No they aren't.

I'm not going to change the subject and steer this disucssion off course.

I don't belive that the IRA situation is right as well, but it has remained very localized. Whereas a large number of
"terrorist" attacks have been perpetrated by muslims from the general area of arabia. This being said, racial profiling is a lesser evil in regards to dealing with large losses of innocent human life.

Isn't Cherzra an euro? If I am wrong, sorry. Cherzra you need to get off the high horse, climb down and realize how many acute flaws are in your logic. The United states has not had a secret meeting to figure out the best way to get rid of arabs. The president hasn't been going on the radio and TV saying how the arabs are evil, and they are making this world horrible. He isn't making gun control laws for arabs only. Actually he's doing the opposite. He helping make sure there is more protection for arabs here, (protection from stupid americans, but protection none the less). If you belive they are even remotely the same, you have a warped sense of reality.

I'm not going to pretend I don't have societal prejudices built into my personalities, but I try to not let them get the best of me, and give everyone a fair chance. If you notice a white guy stab his leg everyday, then you see a different white guy do it, and then a third, you begin to form a theory in your head, that maybe all white guys do this? (I'm white btw :P) I have and have arab friends, and I have no feeling that they are the next WTC bombers, but it dosen't mean that when I'm on a airplane I'm not going to be watching the arab with more then a casual interest.

On the next subject, Bush is trying to use to many aces. He wants the WTC to be an act of war, so that he can retaliate, but he wants to call the persons who were involved with this to be terrorists. The geneva convention, http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/geneva/blgeneva.htm?terms=geneva+convention doesn't apply to terrorists. I don't agree entirely, there are human libirties which always need to be followed.

One final tidbit. Mexicans in the united states are afforded many of the same rights of U.S. citizens, more so then any other countries citizens because of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hildago:
http://americanhistory.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=h ttp%3A%2F%2Fwww.azteca.net%2Faztec%2Fguadhida.html


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Gromikazer Terrorforge -Veldruk- Orbdrin D'oloth

[This message has been edited by Gromikazer (edited 12-22-2002).]
cherzra
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Postby cherzra » Mon Dec 23, 2002 12:11 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gromikazer:
<B> Isn't Cherzra an euro? If I am wrong, sorry. Cherzra you need to get off the high horse, climb down and realize how many acute flaws are in your logic. The United states has not had a secret meeting to figure out the best way to get rid of arabs.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why the hell are you singling me out here? Did I mention arabs anywhere here? Heck I didn't even post anything in this stupid thread besides two 3 line messages. Get your facts straight.


[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 12-23-2002).]

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