Guilty until proven innocent - maybe.

Musi · Postby **Musi** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 12:30 pm

Uh...

Catholics ARE Christians. I went to Catholic school for 13 years, so I should know

There is 2 major sects of Christianity, Catholic and Protestant, and from there it splits further.

I've gone back to just being a Christian because of all the crap with the Catholic church (there's more to it than just the priest rapists that I find appauling).

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Musi "your happy little resser"

old depok · Postby **old depok** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 1:21 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Corth:
Depok..

Heres my mea culpa.. you are right. I did the research. They aren't considered prisoners of war.. and I can't think of any good reason why not. The bushies do tend to shoot themselves in the foot at times by giving people an easy way to criticize them. I cant think of anything more preposterous than to make up some sort of bullshit distinction between 'enemy combatant' and 'prisoner of war'. This is what happens when your lawyers are too smart for your own good...

That being said, the name you use to classify the prisoners does not at all effect the legitimacy of imprisoning them in the first place. If they are found to be innocent, as you noted, they are released. Until we can determine that each individual isn't an al qaeda soldier, they should be locked up as a pow, enemy combatant, or whatever the hell you want to call them. Just like how we arrest someone who is suspected of committing a murder and hold them in jail until they make bail, prove their innocence, or serve their sentence.

Corth

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you that they should be arrested. They should however have some rights. Justice done in secrecy is rarely just.

old depok · Postby **old depok** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 1:32 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Corth:
what is justified discrimination?

You cant drink alcoholic beverages in this country until your 21 years old. That certainly discriminates against young people.

Men aren't allowed to loiter in the ladies room, or vice versa, unless they have a good reason like say, being in charge of cleaning it?

Not just anyone is entitled to a senior position at a government agency. When the secretary of state hires an adviser he/she is entitled to discriminate against people with less credentials by hiring the most qualified person.

People that cannot see are discriminated against harshly. They are not allowed to drive, or to operate heavy machinery. People who unfortunately have epilepsy are subject to the same discriminatory restrictions.

Foreign nationals who are legally living in the US are discriminated against insofar as they can legally be excluded from getting a job with certain governmental organizations, such as the police department.

The fact of the matter is discrimination very prevalent in the law. Much of it is very justifiable. I would suggest that every example I listed is a form of justifiable discrimination. It does little for the quality of the discussion in this thread to simply toss the word discrimination around as an implicitly bad thing without taking time to understand what it is and means.

Discrimination is generally considered 'bad' when it is done on the basis of race, sex, age, nationality, or sexual orientation. The people effected by the registration law are certainly being discriminated against on the basis of their nationality. There is no question about that. The question, then, is whether this is 'bad' discrimination. My argument is that in light of the reasonable national security concerns related to arabs and persians, discrimination against them, in this case a relatively minor registration requirement, is justifiable. How this relates to cuba, or god know what else, I just don't know....

Corth

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I also agree with you that requiring all arab and persian non citizens is probably ok. Keep in mind that there are many countries that fall into this designation who's citizens had nothing to do with the terrorists. There are also plenty of other countries whose citizens are probably part of the terrorist threats Somalia and Indonesia (not to mention this country) for example.

old depok · Postby **old depok** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 2:17 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by old depok:
 I also agree with you that requiring all arab and persian non citizens is probably ok. Keep in mind that there are many countries that fall into this designation who's citizens had nothing to do with the terrorists. There are also plenty of other countries whose citizens are probably part of the terrorist threats Somalia and Indonesia (not to mention this country) for example.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The other way to think about this Corth is the following:

What if we required just all Jewish people to register in this manner?

Again, I am not saying we shouldn't do this. What I am saying is that you have to understand how people will look at this. While we may see it as a simple thing that does not impact the non guilty, some people will not see it as that. Understanding that, we should do some things to reach out to this community so that they know our intentions are above board.

I used the Cuba example to illustrate that many people will look at the registration policy and think it is fine (just as many people in the US thought that the Cuba policy was fine). While many other people will look at the way the people in Cuba were handled and question the motives behind the registration policy.

Abue · Postby **Abue** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 5:02 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Kifle:
The US has always, and will always be a racist country.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hate fucking Arabs. End of story. I say send them all to Allah!!!

Eza · Postby **Eza** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 6:06 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Salen:

Today's winner is

Obviously we did something wrong to make people want to fight us, and us joining up to fight in those wars, killing of thousands of our own people is just as bad as them killing us. - Eza
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Salen, just because you prefer to look at my comment from a different point of view does not make it silly, nor does it make it wrong. Maybe we don't think that we did anything wrong, and I'm sure the jews didn't think they did anything wrong - but the Nazi's did. It's all a matter of perception. An example from a book is the best way I can manage to make it seen:

"Who would you be more afraid of: a two-hundred-pound man who wants to steal a loaf of bread from you, and knows he is doing wrong, or a one-hundred-pound woman who believes, wrongly, but believes with all her heart, that you stole her baby?"

Just because you don't see us as doing anything wrong, doesn't mean we didn't, or that others see it the same way.

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- Booty Assasin -

Selias group-says 'I get scared grouping with eza'
Selias group-says 'I'm afraid she's going to assassinate my booty!'

thanuk · Postby **thanuk** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 9:09 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Kifle:
 I have been in jail, and I can tell you that there is a great degree of racism there. Especially with the guards. I have known 2 people that have went to prison for more than 5 years and they tell me it is worse there. My friend who was 17 when he went to prison, nice as hell and never got in fights, stabbed a man in the stomach with a pensil out of necessity. Now, if this nice guy gets attacked almost daily, think of what will happen to these guys who might not even be terrorists in the first place. The guards wont see them as anything else so will not protect them. Not even the little bit that they do the prisoners that are white. You know nothing on the subject so shut it.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First off, you dont know anything about me, or my friends, or what i know about the subject of prison, so don't tell me to shut anything. But since it is so supportive of your point, good show, I hope maybe they will show the same "respect" for these arab suspected terrorists as they did for your white friend. Hopefully one of them will be forced to gank some guy with a pencil, and can spend the rest of his days waiting for that guy's friend to get revenge on him. The racism these arabs will face in prison is the same racism they would show you if you ever stepped foot in their country, and it is the same racism that drove terrorists to destroy the world trade centers. So you can call it racism if you want to, but if everyone gets treated poorly because of their race, then it is pretty equal now isn't it?

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Thanuk Pantherclaw
Udor says 'con doesnt do shit'

thanuk · Postby **thanuk** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 9:26 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Eza:
Kasula, I agree with you, our country has become a bunch of racists.

As to 9/11.. I'm sick of hearing about it. Yeah, a lot of people died, yeah it was tragic. Was it any less tragic than the other billions of people who have died for their causes, causes they really believe in (and just because they are different from ours doesn't make them wrong), throughout history? No. But it happened, and now we want everyone to hold our hands and tell us that everything will be ok.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You obviously suffered no loss at the hand of these terrorist attacks, but your lack of compassion for those who did is astounding. Yeah, we have killed 3000 people before in history, but guess what? that happened IN HISTORY. And at the time that it happened it was a very big deal and wars were fought over it. Im tired of hearing crap like this, i really am. Let me guess, you live in california. Well how bout next time theres a friggin earthquake, the rest of the country says "oh too bad, but people die all the time. get over it" It would be a huge deal to you then, because it may have effected your life in some way. You miserable piece of shit, how dare you trivialize such an event? Who the hell are you to say it wasn't such a big deal? Maybe you can explain to some of the orphaned children here in new york that it wasn't such a big deal that their parents are dead now, because it has happened in history before!?! This is the most pathetic display of close-minded, unpatriotic, selfishness disguised as worldliness that i have ever seen. But what should we expect from the state that decided "in god we trust" was unconstitutional? Is this what you people do all day, find ways to complain about the paradise millions of people died to create for you? And when something bad happens that doesn't directly effect you, you dismiss it as just another event in a passing day!?! Terrorists attacked your country, and your sick of hearing about it? Get on the tire raft with Kasula, cuz those of us who find value in our country and home don't really need attitudes like this around. How fucking dare you.

As for the racism in this country, guess what, the entire country was founded on racism. The white landowning males came here to escape the descrimination of those with royal bloodlines. Since then every group of people that had come here was harshly descriminated against, but eventually proved their worth and established their place in society. In the 1600's, anyone who wasn't a puritan was shunned by society. In the 1800's it was black people. Toward the 1900's, new minority groups came and were descriminated against. "Irish need not apply" Go type that in google and see what comes out. You know why there is a little italy in New York City? Because when they got here, nobody would hire an Italian because everyone thought they were nothing but idiot thugs and gangsters, so they built their own community and gained the respect of the people who already lived here. Irish people were nothing but drunks and ruffians when they got here, until they proved themselves. German, spanish, black, asian, you name it, America has at least 5 racial slurs to go with it. Racism is part of our country, just as it is a part of every other country. The thing that sets the United States apart is that here you can break these prejudices and stereotypes through your actions, and people will come to accept you. If you really think arabs, or any ethnic group will ever come to this country and face 0 descrimination because of their race, then you are as naive as you are stupid. I hope a haitian voodoo doctor moves in next door to you, and we'll see how unbiased toward other cultures you are, after the goat sacrifice in the backyard at 3 a.m. Your ignorance is truly astounding.

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Thanuk Pantherclaw
Udor says 'con doesnt do shit'

Eza · Postby **Eza** » Mon Dec 23, 2002 9:56 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by thanuk:
 You obviously suffered no loss at the hand of these terrorist attacks, but your lack of compassion for those who did is astounding. Yeah, we have killed 3000 people before in history, but guess what? that happened IN HISTORY. And at the time that it happened it was a very big deal and wars were fought over it. Im tired of hearing crap like this, i really am. Let me guess, you live in california
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Give me a break. I grew up in DC or in a surrounding city. Just because I'm not sitting here wringing my hands, broken down in tears TWO YEARS later, doesn't mean I wasn't affected as well. I don't know you, don't assume you know a thing about me. How dare I say it's not that big of a deal? Same way hundreds of other people do. I'm not the only person in the world who thinks it should be gotten over, I'm just one of the few that actually have the mind to voice it.

As for your calling me stupid and ignorant.. just because my views don't match yours doesn't make me stupid or ignorant. And just because I'm not afraid to speak my mind, doesn't mean I deserve to be slammed for it.

[This message has been edited by Eza (edited 12-23-2002).]

Corth · Postby **Corth** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 4:01 am

Eza,

People feel very strongly about the issues you see in these uber current events threads. Your not a noob to the bbs so you should know that often the messages in such threads are cutthroat. You have a legitimate viewpoint that some people agree with, and others disagree with. If your going to speak your mind on such topics you should be ready to face strongly worded retorts.

Corth

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Goddamned slippery mage.

Malacar · Postby **Malacar** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 4:18 am

I don't sit here going 'poor me, poor me' over the WTC attacks, but I have some compassion. You can't seem to differentiate between the two, taking one extreme, and refusing to admit there's a gray area between them. The 'hundreds' you mention have more tact than to publicly state 'oh lets get over it'. Yeah, those 3000+ people had family, and they are still grieving. Let me kill your entire family, and see if you're over it in 2 years. Let's see if you're over it in a year (oh, let's not forget the attacks were on 9/11/01, not two years, mkay?). Somehow I doubt that something that horrific would be that easy to get over, so you're standing outside the box pummeling others that have some sympathy. You stated your opinion, but you were very non-tactful about it, and distinctly blunt. This is the price you pay for those comments. Though I daresay, I can't post what I really want here. But I digress.

You don't like it here? Get outta the country. Nothing is keeping you here, and this place sucks so much for you, buh bye. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

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Malacar - omg ymir!
Tanji ASSOC:: 'god was blueballed the night before he made Thanuk'

Eza · Postby **Eza** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 4:56 am

I'm sorry if some of you felt that the way I stated my opinion was too blunt, but anyone who knows me knows that I don't candy-coat stuff. Sitting here writing a five page essay on something I feel I could sum up in one or two sentences is nothing but a waste of time. That's just the way I am, and I know what I am opening myself up to every time I voice my thoughts. Insulting my intelligence, however, is plain rude and does not add to the debate in any constructive way.

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- Booty Assasin -

Selias group-says 'I get scared grouping with eza'
Selias group-says 'I'm afraid she's going to assassinate my booty!'

[This message has been edited by Eza (edited 12-23-2002).]

Corth · Postby **Corth** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 6:41 am

Eza,

When you write a message on the bbs you are giving everyone the opportunity to decide just how intelligent or stupid they think you are. If someone calling you stupid bothers you so much I would suggest simply not opening yourself up to such an attack. If your going to have strong opinions your going to need to also grow a thick skin.

Corth

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Goddamned slippery mage.

thanuk · Postby **thanuk** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 2:22 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Eza:
 Insulting my intelligence, however, is plain rude and does not add to the debate in any constructive way.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im tired of hearing about how insulted you were, and you should just get over it already. Now how does that feel?

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Thanuk Pantherclaw
Udor says 'con doesnt do shit'

Kifle · Postby **Kifle** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 3:12 pm

Originally posted by thanuk:
But since it is so supportive of your point, good show, I hope maybe they will show the same "respect" for these arab suspected terrorists as they did for your white friend.


Yeah, lets show those suspected terrorists who is boss! Because we THINK they are terrorists, we should just take their HUMAN rights away from them.


Hopefully one of them will be forced to gank some guy with a pencil, and can spend the rest of his days waiting for that guy's friend to get revenge on him.

The word is shank...gank is to steal.


The racism these arabs will face in prison is the same racism they would show you if you ever stepped foot in their country, and it is the same racism that drove terrorists to destroy the world trade centers.

It is a good thing that since they are commiting an action we consider wrong, we should do the same thing, eh? Good plan, fight racism with racism. Why couldn't I vote for Thanuk for president. You have such wonderful ideas.


So you can call it racism if you want to, but if everyone gets treated poorly because of their race, then it is pretty equal now isn't it?

I think I will call it racism for the simple fact that a word does not lose its meaning when applied to both sides. At least thats how the english language worked last time I checked. It's a shame that the majority of America practices your flawed logic.

It would be damn funny if I were to call up the Feds and drop your name to them as being a suspected terrorist and gave them some retarded reason for believing so. Then you could go to one of our wonderful prisons against your will for no damn reason at all. Because like the thread says...You are guilty until proven innocent.

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Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Dartan tells you 'i own so hard sometimes it makes me want to cry'

Nitupopple group-says 'esrel get glorishan off'

thanuk · Postby **thanuk** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 3:55 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Kifle:

Yeah, lets show those suspected terrorists who is boss! Because we THINK they are terrorists, we should just take their HUMAN rights away from them.

The word is shank...gank is to steal.

It is a good thing that since they are commiting an action we consider wrong, we should do the same thing, eh? Good plan, fight racism with racism. Why couldn't I vote for Thanuk for president. You have such wonderful ideas.


So you can call it racism if you want to, but if everyone gets treated poorly because of their race, then it is pretty equal now isn't it?

I think I will call it racism for the simple fact that a word does not lose its meaning when applied to both sides. At least thats how the english language worked last time I checked. It's a shame that the majority of America practices your flawed logic.

It would be damn funny if I were to call up the Feds and drop your name to them as being a suspected terrorist and gave them some retarded reason for believing so. Then you could go to one of our wonderful prisons against your will for no damn reason at all. Because like the thread says...You are guilty until proven innocent.
[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So because they are suspected terrorists instead of suspected murderers or thieves, they should get better treatment then joe 12 pack who is suspected of DUI and goes to jail? Every "suspect" gets the same treatment, if they singled these people out to protect them, then it would be racism. Equal treatment is the opposite of racism.

The word is gank, "i ganked that mofo" "he ganked me up" this is a slang term for stabbing someone with a knife or some sharpened object. It derived originally from the original meaning, to rob, but became synonymous with stabbing because often when robbing someone, you have to stab them. Stay current with slang or dont comment about it.
Racism, the descrimination of a person based on their race. Inherant in the word descrimination is the fact that not everyone is being treated the same way. But when everyone is descriminated against, its no longer racism, its called being in prison.
I would also enjoy it greatly if you were to call the feds and give them my name as a suspected terrorist. Go ahead, my name is John Collins. If they ever do actually find me among the thousands of men in this country with my exact name, they will do a little research and discover that i am not arabic, and also a citizen of this country. I would subsequently not be arrested, and instead the feds would arrest you for obstruction of justice, fraud, or some other such crime that an action like that would be considered. Then after you got out of prison, where you would actually belong for committing a crime, i could sue you for slander. Sounds like great fun to me, go ahead and call them. You see as a CITIZEN i am afforded rights that the ALIENS are not. But thats probably racist too right?

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Thanuk Pantherclaw
Udor says 'con doesnt do shit'

[This message has been edited by thanuk (edited 12-24-2002).]

old depok · Postby **old depok** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 4:41 pm

As for the racism in this country, guess what, the entire country was founded on racism. The white landowning males came here to escape the descrimination of those with royal bloodlines. Since then every group of people that had come here was harshly descriminated against, but eventually proved their worth and established their place in society. In the 1600's, anyone who wasn't a puritan was shunned by society. In the 1800's it was black people. Toward the 1900's, new minority groups came and were descriminated against. "Irish need not apply" Go type that in google and see what comes out. You know why there is a little italy in New York City? Because when they got here, nobody would hire an Italian because everyone thought they were nothing but idiot thugs and gangsters, so they built their own community and gained the respect of the people who already lived here. Irish people were nothing but drunks and ruffians when they got here, until they proved themselves. German, spanish, black, asian, you name it, America has at least 5 racial slurs to go with it. Racism is part of our country, just as it is a part of every other country. The thing that sets the United States apart is that here you can break these prejudices and stereotypes through your actions, and people will come to accept you. If you really think arabs, or any ethnic group will ever come to this country and face 0 descrimination because of their race, then you are as naive as you are stupid. I hope a haitian voodoo doctor moves in next door to you, and we'll see how unbiased toward other cultures you are, after the goat sacrifice in the backyard at 3 a.m. Your ignorance is truly astounding.

Thanuk - Just because everyone else has done it doesn't make it right. You could use the same arguement about slavery. "all black people who came before you came in chains and see what they have made of themselves. So all people who come to this country should come in chains and be slaves."

The attitude that you have expressed is that racism is natural and we should accept it. This is the easy way out. It is the attitude of "We can't do anything about it so we might as well not even try." If this was everyones attitudes we would still be drinking out of different water fountains, voting as one group (white, land owning, males), and enjoying the songs sung at night by the slaves still out in the fields.

It takes courage to stand up and believe we can be better than that.

We all need to strive to be better. We may not be able to do it but we should try.

thanuk · Postby **thanuk** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 4:57 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by old depok:

Thanuk - Just because everyone else has done it doesn't make it right. You could use the same arguement about slavery. "all black people who came before you came in chains and see what they have made of themselves. So all people who come to this country should come in chains and be slaves."

The attitude that you have expressed is that racism is natural and we should accept it. This is the easy way out. It is the attitude of "We can't do anything about it so we might as well not even try." If this was everyones attitudes we would still be drinking out of different water fountains, voting as one group (white, land owning, males), and enjoying the songs sung at night by the slaves still out in the fields.

It takes courage to stand up and believe we can be better than that.

We all need to strive to be better. We may not be able to do it but we should try.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The attitude i have expressed is that every ethnic group who comes into this country has faced some form of hardship based on racial descrimination. I didn't say it was good, i just said it was reality. To think anything is going to change today or any time soon is foolish. I say the arabs have it easy. They didnt come in chains, they didnt have to fight a civil war to become free. What do they have to do, register with the FBI? Sounds pretty simple to me. Im registered with the FBI, so are you, because you pay taxes. Ever fill out a census form? Guess what, your registered. I also registered for the draft, as i am required to do, by law. So i don't really see how this is any descrimination at all, as the rest of us citizens are registered with the FBI and a number of other government organizations. Its all part of the package.

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Thanuk Pantherclaw
Udor says 'con doesnt do shit'

Ashiwi · Postby **Ashiwi** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 5:03 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Kifle:
Because like the thread says...You are guilty until proven innocent.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kifle, I was highly annoyed with this thread for one basic reason... people managed to overlook the fact that the people in this article ARE guilty. That little fact was covered up in the "I'm such a bleeding heart, look how they kicked the puppy" vitriole. The supposed "wrongs" our country did were very excellently pointed out using all the little keywords and calls to alarm that the thousands and thousands of people who read these articles and jump to their feet screaming "injustice" respond to, without ever checking their facts.

The people this article was written about were detained for various reasons which were valid reasons for deportation under the rules they agreed to in coming over here... the ones that actually agreed to the rules in the first place, that is, some of them didn't even do that but were here illegally from the beginning.

Damn people, OPEN YOUR EYES when you read this kind of crap. If these people were so willing to obey the laws and be good foreign nationals that they could be "duped" into getting caught like this, why did they allow their visa's to expire to begin with? If they had wanted to obey those laws and not risk deportation they would have taken care of the problem when it was supposed to be taken care of and would have walked away that day just like many, many others did.

Like I said above, I feel sorry for the few who truly were victims of red tape, but that was a very small percentage of the people detained.

As for racism... If you worry about your wallet a little more often when you walk through a ghetto neighborhood than when you stroll through a street lined with mansions, you're guilty of racism. Natural thing to do though, right?

If there were a particular steet in your town, let's call it "Hudson Street," and on Hudson street drive-by shootings occurred on average of once every week and a half, rapes occurred at twelve times the average rate of any other area in town, and an unusually high percentage of the inhabitants of this area were known drug dealers, would you REALLY allow your eight year old daughter to play there without keeping an eye on her? Would you allow her to play out on that street at all, just like she would play in the front yard of her wealthy and affluent friends' houses? Don't forget, drive-by shootings occur on average of once every week and a half on this street, strangers who never did anything wrong just getting shot out of the blue because somebody got mad at somebody else.

If you didn't, you would be guilty of discrimination and racism, wouldn't you? Streets like that do exist, and if you're a white person who won't walk down that street, you're a racist, and if I have to point out the reasons why, then you're a racist who has clouded themselves within an illusion of idealism which blots out the common sense of reality.

If the problem is going to be addressed and fixed, then the first thing we have to do is look at the issue with open eyes and see the truth of it, instead of trying to coat it with the little lies we use to try to make ourselves feel better about what great human beings we are.

If somebody has something in their teeth I tell them, because there are good odds they don't realize it's there, oblivious to this ugly thing that everybody else can see. If my husband has a BO problem I tell him he needs a shower, because he's probably worked his ass off to get that stinky, but he also probably doesn't realize he smells the way he does, and I KNOW he'd rather shower than smell bad. And if my daughter asks if she can go play on Hudson Street, I say "no" and scold myself for being a racist, and then I find out what both law enforcement and the city council are doing to make Hudson Street a safer area, and just because I am a racist who wants to keep my daughter safe doesn't make me wrong for keeping her away from Hudson Street, because we all know it's not the concrete and mortar of the street that's the real problem. If you assumed that all people of an ethnic persuasion or street of residence were bad people, you would be wrong, but why is that supposed to keep you from recognizing the problem, taking action to keep your loved ones safe, and working towards a solution?

Saying all Middle Easterners are bad people is racist and wrong, and leads to Hitleresque solutions. Recognizing the issues which constitute a valid danger is the first step in working towards a solution which will be better not just for America, but for the Middle Eastern countries, as well. You can pull the wool over your eyes and bleat "racist" all you want, but I bet you still won't let your child play out on Hudson street.

Sarvis · Postby **Sarvis** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 5:21 pm

"If there were a particular steet in your town, let's call it "Hudson Street," and on Hudson street drive-by shootings occurred on average of once every week and a half, rapes occurred at twelve times the average rate of any other area in town, and an unusually high percentage of the inhabitants of this area were known drug dealers, would you REALLY allow your eight year old daughter to play there without keeping an eye on her? Would you allow her to play out on that street at all, just like she would play in the front yard of her wealthy and affluent friends' houses? Don't forget, drive-by shootings occur on average of once every week and a half on this street, strangers who never did anything wrong just getting shot out of the blue because somebody got mad at somebody else." - Ashiwi

You're being the most racist here. Basically assuming that a neighborhood like Hudson St can only be inhabited be people of a different race. There are streets in America, just like Hudson, populated entirely with your own race, whatever that may be. Furthermore, the people that live on those streets probably don't let their children play outside unsupervised any more than you would let yours. That isn't racism, it's common sense. You aren't reacting to the people so much as the events that occur there, and it is the proper reaction.

However you descriptions don't show racial separations so much as class separations. It's the difference between the rich and the poor, not the black and the white that is being described.

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Every problem in the universe can be solved by finding the right long-haired prettyboy and beating the crap out of him.

Ashiwi · Postby **Ashiwi** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 6:12 pm

The illustration of Hudson Street had no color of skin included because it is not the color of skin that is the problem. Wait, pardon me, I did say "If you are a white person." In the United States, however, the majority of those streets are occupied by non-whites, and what I was trying to point out runs much deeper than simply the seperation of race or class.

It's not color, and it's not class that is the problem. It's the entrenchment of people within their system, whatever system that may be. Too often people who live on Hudson Street are kept on Hudson Street by their own means, simply because they know no other way, and too often they are kept there by others because of their differences. To think that Hudson Street must always remain the danger that it is would be wrong, but to ignore the danger that exists there would be wrong, as well. You have to be able to recognize the dangers, along with the joys, within other cultures to be able to more closely understand the issues which those dangers are created from.

For me to stand next to somebody from Hudson Street and say "This person is no different from me," would be wrong. They are very different from me, and it is up to me to recognize that. Should I ignore their poverty? Should I ignore that their children go hungry? Should I overlook a poor educational system because to say that there is a huge amount of apathy and lower educational standards within the schools of lower-income environments, when the ratio of whites to non-whites within lower-income neighborhoods is disproportionate to wealthier neighborhoods, simply because it's politically incorrect?

For us to say there is not a threat we face from some other cultures is for us to cover our eyes to the issues that exist between their culture and ours, to deny any part we may have had in creating that strife, and to close ourselves off to the potential to understand the differences which are the underlying foundations for our misunderstandings.

What, you want me to ignore the disparity between the races within the US? Or would you rather recognize the problems, which is a step towards building a world where different cultures can co-exist instead of the one we've had where white america felt it necessary to swallow individual traditions and lore, overriding them with the "accepted" beliefs/faiths/manners of dress/hairstyles/etc?

You can't work towards a solution if you can't even recognize the anger.

Sarvis · Postby **Sarvis** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 6:22 pm

The illustration of Hudson Street had no color of skin included because it is not the color of skin that is the problem. Wait, pardon me, I did say "If you are a white person." In the United States, however, the majority of those streets are occupied by non-whites, and what I was trying to point out runs much deeper than simply the seperation of race or class.

While you didn't mention any specific races, you did say that we would be racist if we didn't let our children play there unsupervised. Thereby implying that Hudson St is a bad neighborhood because of the race that lives there.

You're correct about a lot of things, however. I just don't think looking at race doesmuch to help any of these issues. Looking into a neighborhood's Culture might help a little, but mostly we need to look at our economic and political policies. You need to realize that poor white kids and poor black kids are facing many of the same problems, and sometimes it seems like the black kids have more ways out. (Ie. United Negro College Fund)

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Every problem in the universe can be solved by finding the right long-haired prettyboy and beating the crap out of him.

Ashiwi · Postby **Ashiwi** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 6:38 pm

We are all racist to an extent, simply because it's not always easy to embrace somebody else's culture, especially when they are so completely different as are those of the warring factions of the eastern nations. How can we ever hope for peace if we cannot even recognize the differences in our cultures which breeds an animosity and anger, and yes, even a perceived threat, amongst us?

Sarvis · Postby **Sarvis** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 6:47 pm

There's a difference between culture and race Ashiwi. An African American man would probably be just as disgusted by the actions of some cannibalistic African tribe as you or I would be. In fact, as has been pointed out several times in this thread, America is primarily made up of people who didn't like their own culture and decided to forge a better one in a new land.

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Every problem in the universe can be solved by finding the right long-haired prettyboy and beating the crap out of him.

Ashiwi · Postby **Ashiwi** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 7:02 pm

Sigh. No, really?

Sarvis · Postby **Sarvis** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 7:23 pm

"We are all racist to an extent, simply because it's not always easy to embrace somebody else's culture"

You don't seem to think so. You have continually confused race with both culture and economic status.

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Every problem in the universe can be solved by finding the right long-haired prettyboy and beating the crap out of him.

Ashiwi · Postby **Ashiwi** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 8:05 pm

Perhaps I have confused "culture" with both "race" and "economic status."

sok · Postby **sok** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 8:12 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Daz:
please do not lump 'american' and 'christian' together, it is very offensive to some.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah dont lump me in w/ Daz.

Sarvis · Postby **Sarvis** » Tue Dec 24, 2002 8:50 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ashiwi:
Perhaps I have confused "culture" with both "race" and "economic status."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you contending that a persons culture = race + economic status?

They are three separate things, there should be no reason to confuse them.

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Every problem in the universe can be solved by finding the right long-haired prettyboy and beating the crap out of him.

Kifle · Postby **Kifle** » Thu Dec 26, 2002 7:19 am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by thanuk:
 So because they are suspected terrorists instead of suspected murderers or thieves, they should get better treatment then joe 12 pack who is suspected of DUI and goes to jail? Every "suspect" gets the same treatment, if they singled these people out to protect them, then it would be racism. Equal treatment is the opposite of racism.


I never said that. What I am saying is that the US government is hiding behind the front of being all anti-terrorist now, so they are rounding up ever tomhad, dickhad, and harryad because they are arab or of middle eastern decent. But this will work because in the paranoid eyes of most Americans these people are terrorists or could be. It is racism...They had how much time to get these immigrants out of the country before 9/11? What about the Mexicans, Asians and Europeans that are also living in this land of opportunity? I'll tell you, they will continue to fly under the radar, if this radar even exists, until their country is hostile towards ours. They could live here illegaly for the next 100 years and America wouldn't lifts is collective lazy ass finger to do anything about it just like it did to the arabs before 9/11. So no, its still racism you are just blinded by the words terrorist just like every other over patriotic fruit in this country.

[/b]
The word is gank, "i ganked that mofo" "he ganked me up" this is a slang term for stabbing someone with a knife or some sharpened object. It derived originally from the original meaning, to rob, but became synonymous with stabbing because often when robbing someone, you have to stab them. Stay current with slang or dont comment about it.
[/b]

Hrm, thats funny seeing as how I have never heard of it used that way in all my short years. In fact, I have only heard it use to replace the words steal or rob. Secondly, in every movie you will watch they also say Shank somebody with a shiv, or he got shived. Also, on your theory about having to stab the person being robed more times than not? Wow! Thats all I can say...no, no its not. If most people robed people with knives over guns this country would be much safer. Also, the rate of knife violence would be on par with gun violence. WTF do you live Thanuk? Nebraska? Where the Police drive in patty wagons still and call people rascals?


Racism, the descrimination of a person based on their race. Inherant in the word descrimination is the fact that not everyone is being treated the same way.

Yeah, I think I have a dictionary too. But anyway, thanks for proving my point. The Arabs are being discriminated against by the US. The differance in treatment you ask? Every other illegal immigrants, immigrants with an expiered visas, etc., who are not arab or middle eastern, are not being looked at twice. And, if the problem is manpower, I would be more than happy to get a job with the government and deport some of these worthless mexicans that can't even speak this language stealing jobs that my friend's and family could use. Hell, I'll even transport them back to the border. No discrimination, feh. I feel like I am talking to Stevie Wonder.


But when everyone is descriminated against, its no longer racism, its called being in prison.

Yeah, there is no discrimination between arabs and arabs. You guys hate them all and they will all soon be in prison at this rate too.


I would also enjoy it greatly if you were to call the feds and give them my name as a suspected terrorist. Go ahead, my name is John Collins. If they ever do actually find me among the thousands of men in this country with my exact name, they will do a little research and discover that i am not arabic, and also a citizen of this country.

Once again you are under the impression that all terrorists are arabs. Rofl, and you yourself have just pointed out one of the many instances of discrimination that you say don't exist. I should just start replying with what you said and stop wasting my time writing back. You would eventualy argue my point.

It is to my understanding that they also found citizens of this country to be terrorists as well? I don't know, maybe CNN is wrong or something. It is also to my understanding that there are [/i]white[/i] muslims? Then again I could be wrong with that also. Aren't their also people with christian names who have been suspected of terrorism and thrown in jail? It's all so fuzzy now, damn my memory. So, your name and background won't do you a damn bit of good. Sorry Nuk, you aren't that damn safe. Remember the Communism scare? They didn't care if you weren't russian, they just figured he was a traitor...yes there are traitors still. And the US hate these traitors even more than the arabs. You would have a fun time in prison.


I would subsequently not be arrested, and instead the feds would arrest you for obstruction of justice, fraud, or some other such crime that an action like that would be considered.

Actually this is what would happen. You would be arrested with hardly any questions asked because of the ultra high paranoia in this country. Second, if I wanted to make sure you would stay in prison or something instead of just prove a point, I would probably buy you a plane ticket to a country with a high terrorist population. Hell, all i would really have to do is put some muslim writings and a blackmarket gun in your basement. Now, even on the off chance they would come after me, it would be their fault and could not charge me with shit. The reason being is that they are arresting you on suspision, mine and theirs. Suspision is an opinion based on certain paranoias, and with all the bad press on terrorism and our hightened state of alert, who would blame me? So you would never be compensated for your days, weeks, years in prison. Well, maybe you would get a "sorry 'bout that." And, if you tried to sue them you would get some political bullshit on how they are trying to keep the country as safe as possible and blah blah. So, suddenly the government can do what ever they want based on the media over abundance of coverage, which is in turn making the country overly paranoid. Thus making it easier for me to safly put you in prison for a time and get away with it

You see as a CITIZEN i am afforded rights that the [b]ALIENS are not. But thats probably racist too right?[/b]

Yeah, these rights were originaly called basic human rights or God given rights afforded to all who came to this country when this country was founded and they were all white. These rights you speak of were the reason for the revolutionary war. We are given these because that is what the founders of this country believed you must have to be able to live a happy life. So, by your statment, these aliens are not human? You are a sick man, Thanuk. And yes, this statment actualy does make you semi-racist. You are not superior because you live here nor should any human be given more rights in the same country because of his skin color or ethnic background. Well, except for EVERYBODY who does not follow the rules or renew their visas, not just the arab ones

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Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Dartan tells you 'i own so hard sometimes it makes me want to cry'

Nitupopple group-says 'esrel get glorishan off'

old depok · Postby **old depok** » Thu Dec 26, 2002 1:48 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ashiwi:
We are all racist to an extent, simply because it's not always easy to embrace somebody else's culture, especially when they are so completely different as are those of the warring factions of the eastern nations. How can we ever hope for peace if we cannot even recognize the differences in our cultures which breeds an animosity and anger, and yes, even a perceived threat, amongst us?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Everyone has the same reaction to things that are different from what they know and are comfortable with. The question is what do you do when you find yourself uncomfortable with that difference.

People who are racist react to the differences in race, culture, religion in a hostile manner.

People who are not racist react to that same situation with caution, but with a basic acceptance that there are differences in people and that doesn't make people who are different than us bad people. It just makes them different.

thanuk · Postby **thanuk** » Thu Dec 26, 2002 3:07 pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kifle:
[QUOTE]
I never said that. What I am saying is that the US government is hiding behind the front of being all anti-terrorist now, so they are rounding up ever tomhad, dickhad, and harryad because they are arab or of middle eastern decent. But this will work because in the paranoid eyes of most Americans these people are terrorists or could be. It is racism...They had how much time to get these immigrants out of the country before 9/11? What about the Mexicans, Asians and Europeans that are also living in this land of opportunity? I'll tell you, they will continue to fly under the radar, if this radar even exists, until their country is hostile towards ours. They could live here illegaly for the next 100 years and America wouldn't lifts is collective lazy ass finger to do anything about it just like it did to the arabs before 9/11. So no, its still racism you are just blinded by the words terrorist just like every other over patriotic fruit in this country.

Yeah they didn't round them up before 9/11 cuz bleeding hearts like yourself say "Oh the poor immigrants are living off my taxes! Don't kick them out, and send them back to their pathetic third world country, let them STAY" And the government got alot of heat for deporting immigrants, so they went lax on their policies. You can thank Bill Clinton. But now something happened, so they are trying to clean up their act. First on the list is the most dangerous, the arabic immigrants, because they represent the greatest terrorist threat. So you deal with them first. Its logical, regardless of if you are gonna scream racism, to try and get rid of all illegal immigrants at the same time would be impossible; you gotta start somewhere. So you start with the most dangerous.


Hrm, thats funny seeing as how I have never heard of it used that way in all my short years. In fact, I have only heard it use to replace the words steal or rob. Secondly, in every movie you will watch they also say Shank somebody with a shiv, or he got shived. Also, on your theory about having to stab the person being robed more times than not? Wow! Thats all I can say...no, no its not. If most people robed people with knives over guns this country would be much safer. Also, the rate of knife violence would be on par with gun violence. WTF do you live Thanuk? Nebraska? Where the Police drive in patty wagons still and call people rascals?

I live in New York. This is where all the slang you use originates. Just because the slang hasn't caught up in your podunk dipshit little town or on the television, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Your behind the times, but dont worry in 5 years people will be saying gank out by you, only here in NY we will already have a new word for it, probably two or three by then. Don't worry, in about 6 months they will start saying "whats the deal" instead of "whats up" where you live.



Yeah, I think I have a dictionary too. But anyway, thanks for proving my point. The Arabs are being discriminated against by the US. The differance in treatment you ask? Every other illegal immigrants, immigrants with an expiered visas, etc., who are not arab or middle eastern, are not being looked at twice. And, if the problem is manpower, I would be more than happy to get a job with the government and deport some of these worthless mexicans that can't even speak this language stealing jobs that my friend's and family could use. Hell, I'll even transport them back to the border. No discrimination, feh. I feel like I am talking to Stevie Wonder.

Guess what, the border patrol is hiring. The biggest problem they have on the mexican border is they dont have enough people to patrol it. So go get a job, and stop running your mouth. Then maybe you can claim back some of those high paying jobs that all the mexicans steal, like picking fruit and washing dishes! I'll bet you your average illegal arab immigrant has a job of a much higher salary than the average mexican immigrant. 7-11 clerk pays alot better than busboy on the midnight shift at some crappy 24 hour diner. If you would be patient, you'll see that all illegal immigrants are going to be cracked down on, they are just starting with the arabic countries. But you dont want to actually read anything or pay attention to the president's plans, you'd rather scream racism as soon as you hear something on CNN.


Yeah, there is no discrimination between arabs and arabs. You guys hate them all and they will all soon be in prison at this rate too.

My feelings toward arabic people have absolutely no effect on the government's policy. In fact i didn't even vote. And no, they wont all be in prison, because they aren't all illegal immigrants! But since you seem to think all arabs are illegal immigrants, maybe its you that is really racist, and your guilt about your dirty dirty secret is what drives you to publicly defend them.


Once again you are under the impression that all terrorists are arabs. Rofl, and you yourself have just pointed out one of the many instances of discrimination that you say don't exist. I should just start replying with what you said and stop wasting my time writing back. You would eventualy argue my point.

Uhm apparently you forgot the subject we were speaking about, which is the registration of [b]ARABIC IMMIGRANTS to the FBI. If your going to change the subject, you should probably notify the person you are arguing with. It brings a new level to debate when you are both speaking about the same subject.

It is to my understanding that they also found citizens of this country to be terrorists as well? I don't know, maybe CNN is wrong or something. It is also to my understanding that there are [/i]white[/i] muslims? Then again I could be wrong with that also. Aren't their also people with christian names who have been suspected of terrorism and thrown in jail? It's all so fuzzy now, damn my memory. So, your name and background won't do you a damn bit of good. Sorry Nuk, you aren't that damn safe. Remember the Communism scare? They didn't care if you weren't russian, they just figured he was a traitor...yes there are traitors still. And the US hate these traitors even more than the arabs. You would have a fun time in prison.

Again, you have changed the subject and not told anyone. I am not an arab, nor am i an immigrant, so regardless of what you tell the FBI they won't be throwing me in jail for violation of my visa, as i do not have one. They aren't looking for muslims, they aren't looking for communists, they are looking for ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS of arabic descent, which is the group who is most likely to commit terrorist acts. What part of that is so hard for you to understand?

Actually this is what would happen. You would be arrested with hardly any questions asked because of the ultra high paranoia in this country. Second, if I wanted to make sure you would stay in prison or something instead of just prove a point, I would probably buy you a plane ticket to a country with a high terrorist population. Hell, all i would really have to do is put some muslim writings and a blackmarket gun in your basement. Now, even on the off chance they would come after me, it would be their fault and could not charge me with shit. The reason being is that they are arresting you on suspision, mine and theirs. Suspision is an opinion based on certain paranoias, and with all the bad press on terrorism and our hightened state of alert, who would blame me? So you would never be compensated for your days, weeks, years in prison. Well, maybe you would get a "sorry 'bout that." And, if you tried to sue them you would get some political bullshit on how they are trying to keep the country as safe as possible and blah blah. So, suddenly the government can do what ever they want based on the media over abundance of coverage, which is in turn making the country overly paranoid. Thus making it easier for me to safly put you in prison for a time and get away with it

This is the most retarded thing i think i have ever read. First of all, if you did buy me a plane ticket or plant something in my basement, they would be arresting me with evidence, not suspicion. So your argument is just shot. Also this already happened to 2 arabic students last september, and the lady who reported them as being suspected terrorists because they were speaking arabic was put on probation for obstruction of justice. Statute precedes any crazy ideas you have in your head. The two students agreed not to sue the government over the misunderstanding, and their college reinstated them as part of that agreement, in case you were wondering, but if you really cared about any of these people instead of just wanting to run your mouth about terrorism and racism, you would already know that.


Yeah, these rights were originaly called basic human rights or God given rights afforded to all who came to this country when this country was founded and they were all white. These rights you speak of were the reason for the revolutionary war. We are given these because that is what the founders of this country believed you must have to be able to live a happy life. So, by your statment, these aliens are not human? You are a sick man, Thanuk. And yes, this statment actualy does make you semi-racist. You are not superior because you live here nor should any human be given more rights in the same country because of his skin color or ethnic background. Well, except for EVERYBODY who does not follow the rules or renew their visas, not just the arab ones

By my statements, these people are not citizens. The revolutionary war, and its results, extended the rights of the constitution to CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES as an IMMIGRANT with a VISA you are not a CITIZEN and are not protected by these rights. What is so god damn hard to understand? Your right, no two people in the same country should be given different rights based on their ethnicity. However it is standard practice across the entire world to give people different rights based on their CITIZENSHIP. If that wasn't the case, then all your happy go lucky mexican immigrants would have the right to work those jobs they are taking away from your family, because they are in the same country as you. Remember when you said that? Nah probably not, cuz it doesnt suit your argument right now. Its really hard to understand what your even talking about anymore, so im just gonna re-list my points to try and bring you somewhere near the topic at hand:

1. The FBI is actively persuing all immigrants of arabic descent to ensure they have valid visas and are not envolved with terrorist groups. Those who have not followed the proper rules of immigration law in the U.S. have been arrested.
2. You claim this is racist because they are not doing it to every ethnic group, and are singling out the arabs.
3. I say that it is not racist, it is the proper thing to do. Arabic people pose the greatest threat of terrorist action, and all the terrorists who caused the 9/11 attacks were living in the U.S. on expired visas. In the FBI's actions, they are trying to find any other terrorists who have arrived in this country via similar actions. They plan to take similar action with other countries, but have chosen to start with the arabic countries because they are the greatest threat. To try and tackle all immigrants at once would be impossible, just because of the number of people.
4. You go on a rant about slang, reporting me to the fbi, mexican immigrants, and a slew of other topics which have nothing to do with what we are discussing.
5. I own you mightily and yet you still persist to argue.

Ok, you should be all caught up now.

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Thanuk Pantherclaw

Gargauth responds to your petition with 'whats your point, we hate you'

Ashiwi · Postby **Ashiwi** » Thu Dec 26, 2002 3:12 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sarvis:
 Are you contending that a persons culture = race + economic status?

They are three separate things, there should be no reason to confuse them.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. That is absolutely not what I was contending.

I have to admit I'm not much of a debater, and when people try to involve me in an argument by nitpicking at my words, I tend to close it off and walk away because there doesn't seem to be much point, the general message has been lost in an attempt to undermine each individual word. I think my biggest problem here, however, is that I continued to use the word "racist" in the manner that others in this thread were, when I should have clarified that what what's going on is more "discrimination" than "racism."

I stated that it wasn't racism, that there was a much deeper issue involved, the issue with culture. Every aspect of society has its own culture, every race, every income level, every religion, so "race + economic status" can be considered a small part of the culture equation. When the differences are few or slight, then very few problems arise, but when there are many parts of that equation that are different, then the potential for misunderstandings grows... much like the culture I grew up in and the culture you grew up in Sarvis. I have a problem seeing "racism" as color-dependant because it was such a large issue in my life as I grew up, as the white child of a black man. I experienced the discrimination he did as a child, sometimes through him, sometimes directly, even though the color of my skin was the same as the people who discriminated against us. Perhaps it altered my views on what racism is enough that I can no longer speak coherently on the subject. Perhaps I just can't speak coherently, anyway.

I don't believe that recognizing the differences between cultures is necessarily a bad thing. Certainly there is discrimination involved in the events in this article, but that doesn't change the fact that many people walked away from being detained that day. The article intentionally drew attention away from those numbers in order to magnify the plight of those detained so that exactly THIS kind of call to arms would be made among their targeted audience. "Forget about any semblance of the truth or what might have actually happened, somebody has to pay for this wrong we see before us." Okay, I stepped away from the subject for a moment there, because this is really my biggest gripe in this thread, that so many truly intelligent and well-read people allow themselves to be so easily swayed by the propaganda.

My entire point is that recognizing the differences between the cultures, even the threats that exist in one culture toward another, isn't a bad thing. These dangerous rifts have to be identified and acknowledged for any actual understanding to take place between people, because we have to be able to see the problems before we can work towards overcoming them. If we can't identify the problems on the Hudson Streets of our own country, or keep labelling it "racism," when there are many other roots to the issue, then we're simply caught in the same, repeating cycles.

And yes, I do think we are all "racist" to a point, and maybe that's my own version of racism instead of the dictionary definition. We all have our own reactions to the unknown, and we have all grown up learning the myths surrounding opposing cultures. For some this force drives them away, and for some it draws them closer, allowing them to bridge the cultural gap. It is simply knowing that somebody else is different and accepting that those differences will always be there, no matter how much understanding grows between two factions of people. Glossing over those differences, or trying to fit another culture into our mold of what we think they should be like, will only exacerbate the problems.

old depok · Postby **old depok** » Thu Dec 26, 2002 4:03 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ashiwi:
 No. That is absolutely not what I was contending.

I have to admit I'm not much of a debater, and when people try to involve me in an argument by nitpicking at my words, I tend to close it off and walk away because there doesn't seem to be much point, the general message has been lost in an attempt to undermine each individual word. I think my biggest problem here, however, is that I continued to use the word "racist" in the manner that others in this thread were, when I should have clarified that what what's going on is more "discrimination" than "racism."

I stated that it wasn't racism, that there was a much deeper issue involved, the issue with culture. Every aspect of society has its own culture, every race, every income level, every religion, so "race + economic status" can be considered a small part of the culture equation. When the differences are few or slight, then very few problems arise, but when there are many parts of that equation that are different, then the potential for misunderstandings grows... much like the culture I grew up in and the culture you grew up in Sarvis. I have a problem seeing "racism" as color-dependant because it was such a large issue in my life as I grew up, as the white child of a black man. I experienced the discrimination he did as a child, sometimes through him, sometimes directly, even though the color of my skin was the same as the people who discriminated against us. Perhaps it altered my views on what racism is enough that I can no longer speak coherently on the subject. Perhaps I just can't speak coherently, anyway.

I don't believe that recognizing the differences between cultures is necessarily a bad thing. Certainly there is discrimination involved in the events in this article, but that doesn't change the fact that many people walked away from being detained that day. The article intentionally drew attention away from those numbers in order to magnify the plight of those detained so that exactly THIS kind of call to arms would be made among their targeted audience. "Forget about any semblance of the truth or what might have actually happened, somebody has to pay for this wrong we see before us." Okay, I stepped away from the subject for a moment there, because this is really my biggest gripe in this thread, that so many truly intelligent and well-read people allow themselves to be so easily swayed by the propaganda.

My entire point is that recognizing the differences between the cultures, even the threats that exist in one culture toward another, isn't a bad thing. These dangerous rifts have to be identified and acknowledged for any actual understanding to take place between people, because we have to be able to see the problems before we can work towards overcoming them. If we can't identify the problems on the Hudson Streets of our own country, or keep labelling it "racism," when there are many other roots to the issue, then we're simply caught in the same, repeating cycles.

And yes, I do think we are all "racist" to a point, and maybe that's my own version of racism instead of the dictionary definition. We all have our own reactions to the unknown, and we have all grown up learning the myths surrounding opposing cultures. For some this force drives them away, and for some it draws them closer, allowing them to bridge the cultural gap. It is simply knowing that somebody else is different and accepting that those differences will always be there, no matter how much understanding grows between two factions of people. Glossing over those differences, or trying to fit another culture into our mold of what we think they should be like, will only exacerbate the problems.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"And yes, I do think we are all "racist" to a point, and maybe that's my own version of racism instead of the dictionary definition. We all have our own reactions to the unknown, and we have all grown up learning the myths surrounding opposing cultures. For some this force drives them away, and for some it draws them closer, allowing them to bridge the cultural gap. It is simply knowing that somebody else is different and accepting that those differences will always be there, no matter how much understanding grows between two factions of people. Glossing over those differences, or trying to fit another culture into our mold of what we think they should be like, will only exacerbate the problems. "

That's not racism Ashiwi. It is how you treat people after you recognize them as being different that determines whether it is racism or not.

"that so many truly intelligent and well-read people allow themselves to be so easily swayed by the propaganda."

Just so I am clear in my point of view, I don't have a problem with this policy. I don't trust the current administration not to stop here though.

HUGS Ashiwi. Merry Christmas :>)

old depok · Postby **old depok** » Thu Dec 26, 2002 4:11 pm

"Yeah they didn't round them up before 9/11 cuz bleeding hearts like yourself say "Oh the poor immigrants are living off my taxes! Don't kick them out, and send them back to their pathetic third world country, let them STAY" And the government got alot of heat for deporting immigrants, so they went lax on their policies. You can thank Bill Clinton"

Thanuk - Before 9/11 George Bush's administration proposed a general amnesty for all illegal Mexican Aliens living in this country. Last I checked George Bush has never been thought of as a "Bleeding heart"

This was about politics both times by the way. First time it was Bill Clinton trying to increase the number of democrats. This time it was George Bush trying to appear to be Pro Immagrant to capture that vote for himself and his party.

Corth · Postby **Corth** » Thu Dec 26, 2002 4:13 pm

I'm sorry but this has nothing to do with racism. When the day comes that people from El Salvador start joining organizations that blow up planes and buildings, the citizens of the US will demand that the government start cracking down on illegal immigration from that country. This doesn't mean that everyone from El Salvador would be a terrorist. It simply means that the prudent thing to do would be to require that people from an objectively higher risk country comply fully with existing immigration laws. Thats all. Currently, I would much rather see the limited resources budgeted to INS be used to make sure arab people comply with the laws, rather than people from south america. Why? Up until this point no South American organization has professed their desire to blow my country off the face of the world. Its not racism, its common sense and self defense.

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Goddamned slippery mage.

thanuk · Postby **thanuk** » Thu Dec 26, 2002 4:16 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by old depok:


Thanuk - Before 9/11 George Bush's administration proposed a general amnesty for all illegal Mexican Aliens living in this country. Last I checked George Bush has never been thought of as a "Bleeding heart"

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok so like i said, they were getting heat from liberals. This is just another example of the president caving to public opinion. Are you refuting me or agreeing with me?

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Thanuk Pantherclaw

Gargauth responds to your petition with 'whats your point, we hate you'

old depok · Postby **old depok** » Thu Dec 26, 2002 4:29 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by thanuk:
 Ok so like i said, they were getting heat from liberals. This is just another example of the president caving to public opinion. Are you refuting me or agreeing with me?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They were getting heat from their own party who needed the votes in the mid term election.

They didn't cave to public opinion. They created the issue so they could get more votes. This is the same party mind you that had a Governer candidate for California that ran on a "get rid of all the immagrants" campaign.

ROFL you conservative's are a funny lot. Any policy that your party ennacts that you don't agree with was "forced by the liberals".

thanuk · Postby **thanuk** » Thu Dec 26, 2002 4:34 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by old depok:

ROFL you conservative's are a funny lot. Any policy that your party ennacts that you don't agree with was "forced by the liberals".

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uhm, any liberal policy enacted by a conservative is more than likely forced by the liberal party. You wont find any conservative trying to make it easier for immigrants to come here on their own, there is a larger driving force behind it. Even if they needed to do it for votes, that is just a reflection of the public opinion, which in this case would be a liberal opinion. So yes, when a conservative takes up a liberal policy, it is because of pressure from those who support liberal ideas. I dont see why that is amusing though.

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Thanuk Pantherclaw

Gargauth responds to your petition with 'whats your point, we hate you'

old depok · Postby **old depok** » Thu Dec 26, 2002 4:41 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by thanuk:
 Uhm, any liberal policy enacted by a conservative is more than likely forced by the liberal party. You wont find any conservative trying to make it easier for immigrants to come here on their own, there is a larger driving force behind it. Even if they needed to do it for votes, that is just a reflection of the public opinion, which in this case would be a liberal opinion. So yes, when a conservative takes up a liberal policy, it is because of pressure from those who support liberal ideas. I dont see why that is amusing though.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So the conservative party should not have to abide by the opinions of the majority of the public? Isn't that why they are in office to serve "the people"?

The other reason they could take up a liberal policy is that that policy is the right one for the country. But that would mean that either party would be trying to do what is right for the country instead of just trying to do what will get them re-elected.

Keep in mind that there are conservative policies that i think are right for the country as well.

Sarvis · Postby **Sarvis** » Thu Dec 26, 2002 4:45 pm

Ashiwi: Sorry if you felt like I was nitpicking your words. I wasn't trying to. It's just that your misuse of racism changed the argument you were making . Racism is a very specific form of discrimination, it means discrimination based on race. A lot of the things you were describing as racism weren't racially based, but economically or culturally based... which made it confusing.

Your main point seems good though, now that we know what you meant.

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Every problem in the universe can be solved by finding the right long-haired prettyboy and beating the crap out of him.

thanuk · Postby **thanuk** » Thu Dec 26, 2002 5:41 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by old depok:
 So the conservative party should not have to abide by the opinions of the majority of the public? Isn't that why they are in office to serve "the people"?

The other reason they could take up a liberal policy is that that policy is the right one for the country. But that would mean that either party would be trying to do what is right for the country instead of just trying to do what will get them re-elected.

Keep in mind that there are conservative policies that i think are right for the country as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uhm, i dont understand what your trying to prove here man. If you agree that the conservative party should have to conform to the opinion of public opinion, then you cant hold them responsible for the negative effects of policies they adapt due to public opinion. If your my stock broker, and i force you to dump my money into a stock even though you advise me not to do it, then the stock flops, i cant really blame you now can i? But this is what you are trying to do here. The public opinion swayed the government to take a more liberal policy on immigration. After the terrorist attacks, it was discovered that terrorists got into the country because of the liberal immigration policies, and they caught heat because of it. Now they are going back to more conservative policies on immigration to prevent terrorism, and you guys are bitching about racism. What the hell do you want anyway? It seems like you just want to complain.

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Thanuk Pantherclaw

Gargauth responds to your petition with 'whats your point, we hate you'

Ashiwi · Postby **Ashiwi** » Thu Dec 26, 2002 6:02 pm

But it's just my feeling that racism is just that, discrimination based on culture, not color. Racism can also be extended to include that of the Dutch Americans against the Irish Americans (pulled those out of the hat for an example, but you know what I mean). In recent times the knowledge of a different culture has lost meaning so that the color is all that's seen in certain cases, such as the abundant discrimination against any non-caucasians in the southern US. Racism was not at fault for what happened in the article in question, it was the understanding of the culture and the acknowledgment of a valid threat due to not only the ingrained beliefs of that culture but also the misunderstandings which have grown from the differences in both our cultures.

Leaving out the term "racism" here, which has a much deeper level of meaning for me than you will probably find in a dictionary, the difference between what happened in the article and the discriminatatory terms that are being slung around in this thread is that one is done out of knowledge and one is done out of ignorance. To acknowlege a valid threat and then brush it aside because of political correctness would be foolishness taken to a new extreme. If the people they had arrested hadn't been guilty of anything I would be up in arms, as well, but they were guilty of breaking laws which they were supposed to be keeping if they wanted to stay here in the states.

How much more of a no-brainer does this get? You come to the states and don't keep up your part of the bargain, you face the possibility of being deported. If you're from a country which makes regular terrorist threats and carries quite a few of those threats out and you don't follow the laws required of you to stay in the states, your chances of getting deported are higher.

Why do we have to be assholes to everybody, including our allies, or be considered racists? Do those calling for equal treatment in these instances really want us to develop an iron curtain around the country?

old depok · Postby **old depok** » Thu Dec 26, 2002 8:52 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by thanuk:
 Uhm, i dont understand what your trying to prove here man. If you agree that the conservative party should have to conform to the opinion of public opinion, then you cant hold them responsible for the negative effects of policies they adapt due to public opinion. If your my stock broker, and i force you to dump my money into a stock even though you advise me not to do it, then the stock flops, i cant really blame you now can i? But this is what you are trying to do here. The public opinion swayed the government to take a more liberal policy on immigration. After the terrorist attacks, it was discovered that terrorists got into the country because of the liberal immigration policies, and they caught heat because of it. Now they are going back to more conservative policies on immigration to prevent terrorism, and you guys are bitching about racism. What the hell do you want anyway? It seems like you just want to complain.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually you argued that the policy was a result of Bill Clinton. You can't have it both ways. Either Bill Clinton was just doing what the people want and so was Bush or they were both wrong in your eyes and must both be blamed.

I never said that I disagreed with the policy. Actually I said I agreed with it. I did say it was discriminating against Arab people as well. I want those standards applied to ALL people. Yes, start with those people coming from countries that have radical, religous governments or sects. Then expand it to include the rest of the world please.

And it's not just us bleeding heart liberals that are saying that something should have been done before 9/11. We should have enforced the laws on all people.

old depok · Postby **old depok** » Thu Dec 26, 2002 8:57 pm

Oh, and at least I acknowledged that I thought that Clinton's use of that policy was done for political gain. You seem to excuse Bush's use of it as being "forced on him by the liberals". Give me a F'n break.

Sarvis · Postby **Sarvis** » Thu Dec 26, 2002 9:12 pm

"Leaving out the term "racism" here, which has a much deeper level of meaning for me than you will probably find in a dictionary, "

It may have a deeper meaning for you. But how can any of _us_ know that? Language and words are used to communicate ideas, and when you give a word a different meaning than what is commonly accepted it only causes confusion.

Edit: Forgot to close italics...
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Every problem in the universe can be solved by finding the right long-haired prettyboy and beating the crap out of him.

[This message has been edited by Sarvis (edited 12-26-2002).]

Ashiwi · Postby **Ashiwi** » Thu Dec 26, 2002 9:39 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sarvis:
"Leaving out the term "racism" here, which has a much deeper level of meaning for me than you will probably find in a dictionary, "

It may have a deeper meaning for you. But how can any of _us_ know that? Language and words are used to communicate ideas, and when you give a word a different meaning than what is commonly accepted it only causes confusion.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And it really eats at you, doesn't it?

Ashiwi · Postby **Ashiwi** » Thu Dec 26, 2002 10:36 pm

Oh, and incidentally, Kifle and Thanuk... "ganked" here means "totally f'd up."

"Wal-Mart didn't replace the seal on my oil filter and ganked my motor."

sok · Postby **sok** » Fri Dec 27, 2002 2:02 am

stereotypes, discrimination & racism. those are all different.

stereotype are presupposition they helps one get an idea about people. there are too many people to know so we form ideas in our head about what someone is like. everyone stereotypes and there is nothing wrong with having them. thanuk i think this is what you were trying to explain but you called it discrimination, which it is not.

discrimination is judging a stranger (person you have never met) based on stereotype (those idea about a group of people or experience) instead of by their character or actions. this is a more biase. You see cartman, who is a fat little kid who will not share his chicken pot pie. So you assume everyone who is a overweight lack the ability to share their chicken pot pie.

finally racism is discrimination based on race. You're a juror, a black man is being prosecuted for robbery. You find him guilty not based on evidences but because you were robbed 2 years ago by a black man.

that should help you guys in your debate/arguments/discussion.

[This message has been edited by sok (edited 12-26-2002).]

[This message has been edited by sok (edited 12-26-2002).]

[This message has been edited by sok (edited 12-26-2002).]

old depok · Postby **old depok** » Fri Dec 27, 2002 1:17 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by sok:
stereotypes, discrimination & racism. those are all different.

stereotype are presupposition they helps one get an idea about people. there are too many people to know so we form ideas in our head about what someone is like. everyone stereotypes and there is nothing wrong with having them. thanuk i think this is what you were trying to explain but you called it discrimination, which it is not.

discrimination is judging a stranger (person you have never met) based on stereotype (those idea about a group of people or experience) instead of by their character or actions. this is a more biase. You see cartman, who is a fat little kid who will not share his chicken pot pie. So you assume everyone who is a overweight lack the ability to share their chicken pot pie.

finally racism is discrimination based on race. You're a juror, a black man is being prosecuted for robbery. You find him guilty not based on evidences but because you were robbed 2 years ago by a black man.

that should help you guys in your debate/arguments/discussion.

[This message has been edited by sok (edited 12-26-2002).]

[This message has been edited by sok (edited 12-26-2002).]

[This message has been edited by sok (edited 12-26-2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I almost posted this exact thing. Thanks

Guilty until proven innocent - maybe.

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