Caution, Touchy subject. Be real.

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
Gerad
Sojourner
Posts: 591
Joined: Sun May 13, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Contact:

Caution, Touchy subject. Be real.

Postby Gerad » Sun Dec 22, 2002 10:17 am

Stem Cell Research

Afraid I dont know much to open the topic, so I'll let others.

From what I do know, My question would be,

Who in the world is against this, and why?

Comments? More Questions?

-Gerad

------------------
Auril tells you 'Yes, we're plotting the destruction of all that is holy - and unholy, too. Just to be thorough.'
Jenera
Sojourner
Posts: 533
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Warsaw, Indiana
Contact:

Postby Jenera » Sun Dec 22, 2002 11:19 am

I don't know much about this subject either, but it interests me and I am hoping to choose the study of genetics, disease research, etc. as my career path.

By what I can see, it is a big battle between the religious and the non-religious.

I can't wait to read the replies of this thread. Image

------------------
Shevarash OOC: 'Apparently you are unaware that I am oft called 'The Disco Elf' in recognition of my awesome boogie powers.'
Shar OOC: 'He's just trying to cover up the fact that he is in love with his cat.'
Shar OOC: 'the cat loves to dance after it nurses.'
Shevarash OOC: 'Leave my nipple out of this.'

Kossuth OOC: 'woo, notched 1h slacking!'
Mishri OOC: 'i thought you were already master, with 100?'
Lazus OOC: 'No, that's 1h typing.'
Kossuth OOC: 'die lazus :P'
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ashiwi » Sun Dec 22, 2002 11:27 am

I'm not exactly a religious person, and I can see huge moral and ethical complications with it. Not that I'm against the research, only some of the ways it could be used, like just about any other form of research.
Kifle
Sojourner
Posts: 3830
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Huntington, IN USA
Contact:

Postby Kifle » Sun Dec 22, 2002 11:58 am

From what I have heard about it on the news, I dont see what the problem is. I believe they get these cells from an embryo or a fetus. I also think that you can get these from an aborted fetus. Now, I know a fetus is a child and all, but if the person is going to have an abortion, why not put the cells to use? It sounds a bit cold, but I dont know another way to put it.

Another moral delema I think that arose was the idea of cloning people's dna and getting the cells this way so you wouldnt have to rely on abortions. I can see the whole "brave new world" thing here, but if we were to make it to where you can only let the cloned dna grow to a certain point. You would get your stem cells and you would also not have another you walking around. I am all for it. Hell I wouldn't mind having a clone of me sitting somewhere in some lab with a nice new set of lungs for me when mine start to fail. The moral dilema in this case is to whether or not this clone will have a soul and yadda yadda. I say screw it, my clone would act as a sort of martyr, so her soul would go to heaven as far as the christian religion is concerned, yes? I am annoyed at this particular reason because this is a religious theory. Millions of lives can be saved a year, but, because of religion, they are forced to suffer through whatever disease they have and ultimately die a horrible death...that is horrid.

------------------
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Dartan tells you 'i own so hard sometimes it makes me want to cry'

Nitupopple group-says 'esrel get glorishan off'
Gerad
Sojourner
Posts: 591
Joined: Sun May 13, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Contact:

Postby Gerad » Sun Dec 22, 2002 12:52 pm

Personally, as far as the 'moral and ethical' complications go, I think that it is now time. It is time to move on out of our infancy and develop those technologies which can save us.

Genetics is truly one. Our bodies fail, its a fact. You shouldnt be damed to death because your kidneys failed early, just because the politicians think that its 'wrong' to clone humans or use a dead fetus for research.

I read an article, where someone said women might abort healthy babies for no reason other than a cash reward. I say, you dont make a law banning the research, you make a law banning the payment to mothers. If they want to allow it, then by all means, in fact, if they want an abortion, let it cover the cost of the abortion, but they should never see cash.

Its a fact, that with any technology, new process, or invention, you have to break a few eggs. You have to fail, in order to learn.

To sum it up, I think its very easy to say, "We are imperfect humans and cloning is wrong", and that a much harder choice is "We can live with our failures, and our mistakes, for the greater good of humanity."

-Gerad

------------------
Auril tells you 'Yes, we're plotting the destruction of all that is holy - and unholy, too. Just to be thorough.'
Yayaril
Sojourner
Posts: 2552
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Green Bay, WI

Postby Yayaril » Mon Dec 23, 2002 2:07 am

Actually, there are ways to clone stemcells now that don't include using a fetus. It does involve using an egg cell, and then implanting someone's DNA into it, coaxing it to begin splitting and then harvesting the cells.

I don't understand the moral problems, either.

------------------
-Yayaril
rylan
Sojourner
Posts: 2903
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Hudson, MA

Postby rylan » Mon Dec 23, 2002 3:14 am

Another thing with insane numbers of stem cells is the umbilical cord and placenta, which are both thrown away after birth due to some stupid law. Now explain to me what is wrong with harvesting stem cells from 'cord blood' as its called and using them for research and growing new organs.

I can understand the stuff about not wanting to grow a fetus for the sole purpose of extracting stem cells, but when its available because of other circumstances it should be used.
Musi
Sojourner
Posts: 198
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2002 6:01 am

Postby Musi » Mon Dec 23, 2002 3:59 am

*puts up flame shield*

Speaking as a Christian, I don't believe in abortion. It's a terrible thing that should be only performed in certain circumstances. However, this procedure continues to be done everyday. Therefore, shouldn't they be able to use these fetuses for some sort of good?

I agree with pretty much everyone on here. Women that don't want children are going to get abortions (unless they carry to full term and give it up for adoption). I don't think they should be paid, but the procedure should be paid for if they donate it to research.

I think it's stupid that the government said they can only do so much for research Image People could be walking again, alzheimer's could be cured, cancer could be stopped and a lot of other wonderful cures could be found. But only if the government thinks for a second about more than just the "what about their soul?" issue, they'd realize that the researchers could save people worldwide, if they'd let them Image

Oh, well. I guess I'm a bad Christian Image


------------------
Musi "your happy little resser"
Tanji Smanji
Sojourner
Posts: 765
Joined: Thu Apr 18, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Atlanta, Georgia

Postby Tanji Smanji » Mon Dec 23, 2002 6:59 am

Anything that could possibly result in another me is a good thing. The world will be a much brighter place with more Tanji's in it.

------------------
How to go from Waelos to Weylarii.

Weylarii group-says 'oh shit! my penis is stuck in the toaster. afk'
Sarell
Sojourner
Posts: 1681
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am
Location: brisbane, australia

Postby Sarell » Mon Dec 23, 2002 7:55 am

I believe several forgers on muds are against this as the ethical debate that would arise over whther or note cloning yourself and using your clone to plevel your alts would be just too difficult.

------------------
Abue
Sojourner
Posts: 123
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Abue » Mon Dec 23, 2002 12:38 pm

I heard something about using bone marrow was somehow being used in the process instead of embryos. I do not understand that kind of stuff.
rylan
Sojourner
Posts: 2903
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Hudson, MA

Postby rylan » Mon Dec 23, 2002 12:55 pm

Bone marrow was found to be somewhat useful, since it also has a high concentration of stem cells. However, since these stem cells were more 'mature', they were also more resistant to programming into doing other things. They were found to be useful for generating new bone marrow however, which could be good for chemo patients. The most promising results came from embryonic stem cells, which can be manipulated to grow into just about any organ and also be a genetic match for the target recipient.
old depok
Sojourner
Posts: 572
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Philadelphia PA USA

Postby old depok » Mon Dec 23, 2002 1:46 pm

Here is the arguement against stem cell research as I see it (keep in mind I am not religous)...

Human life is sacred.

The process of creating life is one that should be left to god.

Life starts at conception.

Thus, as soon as you fertilize an egg with DNA or sperm etc. you have a human being.

Killing a human being is a mortal sin.

I have been an advocate for a woman's right to choose for a long time. I never had an issue with abortion until my daughter was conceived. I now have a dilemma as I heard her heart beat in the third month and concidered her my child as she grew in my wife's belly.

I still support a woman's right to choose because it's the law and I never want to go back to the back alley abortions that took place prior to legalized abortion. I am just glad that I am not faced with the prospect of having to make that choice.

Personally I beleive that the use of DNA to fertilize and Egg for the development of stem cells is something where the benefits outweigh the detriments.
Malacar
Sojourner
Posts: 1640
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Boston, MA, USA

Postby Malacar » Mon Dec 23, 2002 2:34 pm

Hrm... A clone of me is a neat way to bypass that petition that went around making it so I can't reproduce...

On a more serious note, stem cell research, if done with care and maturity, will more than outweigh any detriments.

------------------
Malacar - omg ymir!
Tanji ASSOC:: 'god was blueballed the night before he made Thanuk'
Silsaterur
Sojourner
Posts: 195
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Oakville, Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Postby Silsaterur » Mon Dec 23, 2002 4:09 pm

Hrm, Sensative subject.

I have long been an advocate of stemcell research as it is the only way to truely reproduce organs and bodily tissues.

Imagine how much good would come of being able to grow bone marrow cells for a leukeimia patient, or even rebuilding a severed spinal cord?

Whys should religion should hold ANY sway over scientific progress? I thought ethics are now the durisdiction of the courts, and have been for over 100 years. "Playing god" is a relative term, the denial of stem cell research may have closed the doors for a time on human cloning, but it has also drammatically slowed most research that was simply geared to developing the means to grow genetically identical organs for people who need them to survive.

I have long been a blood donor and also an organ donor, as I hope many of you are as well. However, should someone have to die to save a life? Should someone else have to die because a compatable "donor" couldn't be found. I don't think so.

However, these donors choose to give what time they can to those who had none, no future. As far as legality is concerned it should be upto the mothers to decide if good should become of thier tragedy as well.

And I'll leave it at that...
Zrax
Sojourner
Posts: 593
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Fairborn, OH, USA
Contact:

Postby Zrax » Mon Dec 23, 2002 4:57 pm

Thinking of all the new bioweapon technology that someone will with no doubt develop as a result of the research excites me. The more advanced the technology the more destructive its potential is a general rule.

------------------
And shepherds we shall be, for Thee my Lord, for Thee.
Power hath descended forth from Thy hand,
that our feet may swiftly carry out Thy command.
We will flow a river forth unto Thee,
and teeming with souls shall it ever be.
In nomine Patris, et Fili, et Spiritu Sancti.
thanuk
Sojourner
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby thanuk » Mon Dec 23, 2002 5:57 pm

You should not play with that which you do not understand.

------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw
Udor says 'con doesnt do shit'
Tayros
Sojourner
Posts: 194
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Tayros » Mon Dec 23, 2002 6:47 pm

As someone who markets bio-instrumentation I have no problems with stem cell research. I do have a problem with growing a fetus and terminating it (well before it can be identified as anything beyond a puddle of mucus) just to collect un-differentiated cells. I'm also not for using animals in the same process to grab stem cells that way (free the mice!). (EDIT: using one person to help another without consent is akin to slavery) Stem cell research is a radical new path, and has great potential.

OK, now here's some kewl things about this field...

When a woman is pregnant with a child, the mother and child are (somewhat) sharing blood. "Rare Events" IE: stem cells or other fetal cells can be pulled from the mothers blood for analysis using a flow cytometer, like a MoFlo High Speed Sorter (see www.cytomation.com). This provides researchers and maybe doctors with alternatives to harvesting stem cells as well as offers a non-invasive IVD amniocytesus (sp?), making fetal diagnostics 100x safer.

It's all about patience (no pun intended). Do they want to take the time as well as round up donors for research and will people support it? I would.

[This message has been edited by Tayros (edited 12-23-2002).]
thanuk
Sojourner
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby thanuk » Mon Dec 23, 2002 9:49 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gerad:
<B>Genetics is truly one. Our bodies fail, its a fact. You shouldnt be damed to death because your kidneys failed early, just because the politicians think that its 'wrong' to clone humans or use a dead fetus for research.


Its a fact, that with any technology, new process, or invention, you have to break a few eggs. You have to fail, in order to learn.

To sum it up, I think its very easy to say, "We are imperfect humans and cloning is wrong", and that a much harder choice is "We can live with our failures, and our mistakes, for the greater good of humanity."

-Gerad

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Forget religion. You shouldn't be doomed to death for having kidney failure because a politician said it was wrong, you should be doomed to death for having kidney failure because you have bad kidneys. After millions of years of evolution via nature, it has been decided that your kidneys are going to fail when you are 43 years old. If man was meant to be immortal, then people wouldn't die. The result of stem cell research, after all the mistakes and the needless death, the result of all this will one day be to extend the human life span. We are already facing population density issues in much of the world. People already live to 90 and 100 years old, moreso than any previously recorded era of human life. Have you ever seen or spoken to a 95 year old man? Is that what you want to be? At some point, people need to recognize that the extension of human life is not neccessarily a good thing. Despite your desire to live for 200 years, your body was not built for it, and it will not be able to stand it gracefully. I have no desire to be a slobbering mess of myself at age 150, unable to function physically, mentally incompetant, but living off artificial kidneys and lungs. I am surprised anyone does desire this. This is just the latest incarnation of a problem that human beings have faced since their appearance on this planet. Acceptance of your own mortality. You are going to die one day. It may be tomorrow, it may be 100 years from now, but you will eventually die. Are those last 2 years at the end there, really worth the side effects this research will produce? The question is not if we should do this for the greater good of humanity. The real question is, if we do this, will it really be for the greater good of humanity? I personally belief it will be nothing but a detriment. If people were meant to be cloned, then you and your brother would look exactly alike. You don't, and theres a reason for it. In experimenting with the human genome, man is toying with a power he has little knowledge of, and even less control over. Eventually, stem cell research will occur, regardless of moral qualms or any arguments people with minds like to mine may have. But when it is all said and done, will we have gained more than we lost? I doubt it.


------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw
Udor says 'con doesnt do shit'
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Postby Sarvis » Mon Dec 23, 2002 9:56 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B>You should not play with that which you do not understand.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If we didn't do that, we wouldn't be human. We'd still be apes wondering how fire got created.

Course... it's possible we'd be better off that way...

------------------
Every problem in the universe can be solved by finding the right long-haired prettyboy and beating the crap out of him.
Zellin
Sojourner
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Zellin » Mon Dec 23, 2002 10:01 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B> Forget religion. You shouldn't be doomed to death for having kidney failure because a politician said it was wrong, you should be doomed to death for having kidney failure because you have bad kidneys. After millions of years of evolution via nature, it has been decided that your kidneys are going to fail when you are 43 years old. If man was meant to be immortal, then people wouldn't die. The result of stem cell research, after all the mistakes and the needless death, the result of all this will one day be to extend the human life span. We are already facing population density issues in much of the world. People already live to 90 and 100 years old, moreso than any previously recorded era of human life. Have you ever seen or spoken to a 95 year old man? Is that what you want to be? At some point, people need to recognize that the extension of human life is not neccessarily a good thing. Despite your desire to live for 200 years, your body was not built for it, and it will not be able to stand it gracefully. I have no desire to be a slobbering mess of myself at age 150, unable to function physically, mentally incompetant, but living off artificial kidneys and lungs. I am surprised anyone does desire this. This is just the latest incarnation of a problem that human beings have faced since their appearance on this planet. Acceptance of your own mortality. You are going to die one day. It may be tomorrow, it may be 100 years from now, but you will eventually die. Are those last 2 years at the end there, really worth the side effects this research will produce? The question is not if we should do this for the greater good of humanity. The real question is, if we do this, will it really be for the greater good of humanity? I personally belief it will be nothing but a detriment. If people were meant to be cloned, then you and your brother would look exactly alike. You don't, and theres a reason for it. In experimenting with the human genome, man is toying with a power he has little knowledge of, and even less control over. Eventually, stem cell research will occur, regardless of moral qualms or any arguments people with minds like to mine may have. But when it is all said and done, will we have gained more than we lost? I doubt it.


</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hi5!

------------------
Zellin group says 'I'm still here buddy =)'
Zellin has left the group.
Yayaril
Sojourner
Posts: 2552
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Green Bay, WI

Postby Yayaril » Mon Dec 23, 2002 10:18 pm

I desire to be 95 some day. That means that I lived all those years between now and then.

------------------
-Yayaril
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ashiwi » Mon Dec 23, 2002 10:29 pm

Thanuk, the way I agree with you sometimes scares the hell out of me.

There's another thread on the BBS that just makes me want to grab people and shake them for some of their idealistic naivety and their ability to be able to blame the issues in their lives on anything but either their own actions or just a freak twist of circumstance. Love the idea of unfettered research into reducing human (and animal) suffering, and I'm a organ donor, myself, BUT...

I won't go hunting, myself, since the inflicting of unnecessary pain is something I find abhorrent. I fully support hunting as a necessity, though, not for what it does for the human species, but for what it does for what's left of the natural ecology and the effects of over-population within that ecology.

I hate the idea of war with an unequalled passion, the cruelties perpetrated, the rampant starvation and disease. Wars are fought over many issues, however, and often they are fought over land and food and water supplies because the human population has simply exceeded the ecology's ability to support it.

Once we became smarter than nature, nature had to become smarter than us. This is the way it has always been and this is the way it will always be. Highly populated areas have high crime rates because people simply aren't intended to live in such crowded situations. The longer we extend our lives the harder we're going to have to work to keep the earth we live on worth living on, and to make the bodies we're inhabiting worth each breath we breathe.

Unfortunately it will only get worse, because it is the minority who work at these levels of research and industry, and the majority who seem to want to place the blame for their unhappiness on everything but themselves, and want the world delivered to them on a silver platter with never a mind to the consequences.

Sure, I want to live until I'm 150 years old. Give me a bag for a stomach and fiber optics in my eyes, crutches, then a wheelchair, then finally a bed when I can no longer hold my frame upright, a pressurized chamber and a magnetic pulse to keep my lungs pumping and my heart beating, and a solid baby blue wall to entertain my mind when it is no longer capable of performing the simplest functions or recognizing my family from my silverware. Then wheel my bed into ward #108 where I will share the last 60 years of my life with the 150 and growing other long-lifers who are permanent residents of one of 750 and growing wards.

Not hardly.

Oh wait, you say you want to FIX all those health problems and you can fix them all with the right research? Better hope that research takes into account pollution, overcrowding, resources and human psychology as the wealthy grow more wealthy and the poor grow more poor in an elbow-to-elbow society where the general population is apathetic and the youth seem to think the only slavery in the world happened right here in this country and was all the fault of the people who are alive today, and that somebody who lays his life down for you is somebody who should be ridiculed and spit on.

If we can't get the other issues we have worked out, a new liver isn't going to make an extended lifespan very pleasant at all. Quality of life? I don't forsee it.
rylan
Sojourner
Posts: 2903
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Hudson, MA

Postby rylan » Mon Dec 23, 2002 11:17 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B> I have no desire to be a slobbering mess of myself at age 150, unable to function physically, mentally incompetant...
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But thanuk, you're already there and you're still young!

omg so pwned Image
Gerad
Sojourner
Posts: 591
Joined: Sun May 13, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Contact:

Postby Gerad » Tue Dec 24, 2002 6:05 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by rylan:
<B> But thanuk, you're already there and you're still young!

omg so pwned Image</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

utterly pwned!

------------------
Auril tells you 'Yes, we're plotting the destruction of all that is holy - and unholy, too. Just to be thorough.'
thanuk
Sojourner
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby thanuk » Tue Dec 24, 2002 2:15 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by rylan:
<B> But thanuk, you're already there and you're still young!

omg so pwned Image</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. Now imagine me + alzhimers + depends. It isnt pretty.

------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw
Udor says 'con doesnt do shit'
Kifle
Sojourner
Posts: 3830
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Huntington, IN USA
Contact:

Postby Kifle » Tue Dec 24, 2002 3:17 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B>You should not play with that which you do not understand.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, who needs electricity?! Who needs antibiotics or benzodiazapines? Who needs science as a whole...

Thanuk, playing is the core of learning. You do it as a child and you do it until you die...its a fact of life and of human existance :P

Yeah, I like picking on you, so what.

------------------
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Dartan tells you 'i own so hard sometimes it makes me want to cry'

Nitupopple group-says 'esrel get glorishan off'
rylan
Sojourner
Posts: 2903
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Hudson, MA

Postby rylan » Tue Dec 24, 2002 3:51 pm

Thats a scary thought Thanuk :P

Anyway, I don't think stem cell research should be used to help extend peoples' life to some nasty point where they are a mess. What I think it should be used for is to give people a chance who have a defective organ or some disease that makes their life harder.. such as bone marrow transplants for lukemia and cancer patients, diabetes, kidneys, heart etc. Those organs won't make a person who is already 100 live until they're 150, but it can certainly help a 30 or 40 something person stay around with their family.
Yayaril
Sojourner
Posts: 2552
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Green Bay, WI

Postby Yayaril » Tue Dec 24, 2002 4:11 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B> Exactly. Now imagine me + alzhimers + depends. It isnt pretty.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not that much of a stretch of the imagination.

------------------
-Yayaril
thanuk
Sojourner
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby thanuk » Tue Dec 24, 2002 4:11 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kifle:
<B> Yeah, who needs electricity?! Who needs antibiotics or benzodiazapines? Who needs science as a whole...

Thanuk, playing is the core of learning. You do it as a child and you do it until you die...its a fact of life and of human existance :P

Yeah, I like picking on you, so what.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Electricity, anti-biotics, pennicillin and the like were discovered through research, not playing. Ben Franklin didn't "play" with electricity, he tied a key to a string on a kite and let it hit him. Pennicillin was discovered by watching bread mold, not by breaking it down molecularly and forcing it to mold in new and different ways. As for "playing" your right, who needs it. Who needs chloroflorocarbons that we found by "playing" with elements that didn't naturally combine? That was a good find! Also napalm, that was a good find.
The greatest scientific discoveries of our time were made through watching, not playing. "Playing" comes after you have an understanding of the item you are researching. Going in and altering the genome of creatures to experiment with the results is the scientific equivalent of pouring things into your gas tank to see if your car will run on it. Watch what happens when you get up to sugar water!

p.s. It doesn't count as picking on me unless you win the argument Image


------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw
Udor says 'con doesnt do shit'
old depok
Sojourner
Posts: 572
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Philadelphia PA USA

Postby old depok » Tue Dec 24, 2002 4:24 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B> Electricity, anti-biotics, pennicillin and the like were discovered through research, not playing. Ben Franklin didn't "play" with electricity, he tied a key to a string on a kite and let it hit him. Pennicillin was discovered by watching bread mold, not by breaking it down molecularly and forcing it to mold in new and different ways. As for "playing" your right, who needs it. Who needs chloroflorocarbons that we found by "playing" with elements that didn't naturally combine? That was a good find! Also napalm, that was a good find.
The greatest scientific discoveries of our time were made through watching, not playing. "Playing" comes after you have an understanding of the item you are researching. Going in and altering the genome of creatures to experiment with the results is the scientific equivalent of pouring things into your gas tank to see if your car will run on it. Watch what happens when you get up to sugar water!

p.s. It doesn't count as picking on me unless you win the argument Image


</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually penicillan was discovered as a result of a failed experiment that was allowed to sit and developed mold. The mold turned out to be Penicillan.

Your version of "playing" with stem cells is what other people call research.
old depok
Sojourner
Posts: 572
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Philadelphia PA USA

Postby old depok » Tue Dec 24, 2002 4:26 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B> Electricity, anti-biotics, pennicillin and the like were discovered through research, not playing. Ben Franklin didn't "play" with electricity, he tied a key to a string on a kite and let it hit him. Pennicillin was discovered by watching bread mold, not by breaking it down molecularly and forcing it to mold in new and different ways. As for "playing" your right, who needs it. Who needs chloroflorocarbons that we found by "playing" with elements that didn't naturally combine? That was a good find! Also napalm, that was a good find.
The greatest scientific discoveries of our time were made through watching, not playing. "Playing" comes after you have an understanding of the item you are researching. Going in and altering the genome of creatures to experiment with the results is the scientific equivalent of pouring things into your gas tank to see if your car will run on it. Watch what happens when you get up to sugar water!

p.s. It doesn't count as picking on me unless you win the argument Image


</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's also arguable that Napalm was a successful experiment since it produced the desired result.
thanuk
Sojourner
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby thanuk » Tue Dec 24, 2002 4:28 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by rylan:
<B>Thats a scary thought Thanuk :P

Anyway, I don't think stem cell research should be used to help extend peoples' life to some nasty point where they are a mess. What I think it should be used for is to give people a chance who have a defective organ or some disease that makes their life harder.. such as bone marrow transplants for lukemia and cancer patients, diabetes, kidneys, heart etc. Those organs won't make a person who is already 100 live until they're 150, but it can certainly help a 30 or 40 something person stay around with their family.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure, that would be great. I dont have anything against helping people. But don't you think these scientists should have a better understanding of what it is they're doing before they just go ahead and do it? How well do people really understand the genetic structure of humans, and how it all works in combination, when we've only just recently completed mapping it? Just because you know the basic structure does not mean your equipped to go around changing things. Its like a house. Sure, you know where all the beams are, so why not knock down that wall over there? then after you knock it down, and the house collapses, you realize you have hit a load bearing beam. Then the architect comes over to you, standing among your rubble, and says "You shouldn't play with that which you don't understand." Only difference is you can rebuild your house, i have serious doubts as to any human's ability to rebuild the genetic structure of another person.

------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw
Udor says 'con doesnt do shit'
thanuk
Sojourner
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby thanuk » Tue Dec 24, 2002 4:37 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by old depok:
<B> Actually penicillan was discovered as a result of a failed experiment that was allowed to sit and developed mold. The mold turned out to be Penicillan.

Your version of "playing" with stem cells is what other people call research.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Research and experimenting are very different things. My version of "playing" is what other people call experimenting. Research would be to do nothing to them at all, and watch how they grow and develop. Mold may have been found accidentally, but it was not found through any experimenting of humans. It occurred naturally, someone just found it, thus a discovery and not a creation. A creation would be the rubber used in car tires, which was also found by accident.
As for napalm, your right, it was a successful experiment. A better example may be LSD, which was a failed experiment at a truth syrum. That turned out good too!
Some other "experiments" have yielded cocaine and heroine, as well as crack. Great track record of experimenting. Research yields results, experimenting without it yields mishaps and mistakes. Only in this case, those mistakes will come at the cost of lives, instead of inanimate objects.

------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw
Udor says 'con doesnt do shit'
Iduna
Sojourner
Posts: 86
Joined: Fri Nov 01, 2002 6:01 am

Postby Iduna » Tue Dec 24, 2002 4:40 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by rylan:
<B>Another thing with insane numbers of stem cells is the umbilical cord and placenta, which are both thrown away after birth due to some stupid law. Now explain to me what is wrong with harvesting stem cells from 'cord blood' as its called and using them for research and growing new organs.

I can understand the stuff about not wanting to grow a fetus for the sole purpose of extracting stem cells, but when its available because of other circumstances it should be used.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is a Hospital in I believe Tampa for a price of corse you (new paretns) in delivery can save the Stem cells of their new baby incase they are needed later in life.(their own use only)
I think that is a great idea..

------------------

Marsak group-says 'Who is it....Iduna. WHat do ya mean you dont know?! It's who? Iduna!..WHo is it!?!....IDUNA! Sigh....Iduna either!'
sok
Sojourner
Posts: 1578
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 5:01 am
Location: santa ana, ca, usa
Contact:

Postby sok » Tue Dec 24, 2002 4:56 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by rylan:
<B>Thats a scary thought Thanuk :P

Anyway, I don't think stem cell research should be used to help extend peoples' life to some nasty point where they are a mess. What I think it should be used for is to give people a chance who have a defective organ or some disease that makes their life harder.. such as bone marrow transplants for lukemia and cancer patients, diabetes, kidneys, heart etc. Those organs won't make a person who is already 100 live until they're 150, but it can certainly help a 30 or 40 something person stay around with their family.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You dont make the rules. Old people with money will use this to extend their lives.

----------------------------
On other issue: Jurassic Park asked we asked if we could do it, but forgot if we should do it. I think this is what Thanuk is saying. Also reminds me of the Chaos Theory. What happens if we start cloning, a clone does grow up and decides they want to be the only Tanji, or only Yayaril, or whoever, and decides to take out the other. Or if the clones thinks it the real person and tries to kill the real person thinking it is a clone. Nine Days (not sure on title) but it's an Arnold movie.

I dont know enough about the subject to give an educated opinion, but from what I have read above it seem very scary. Lets harvest eggs and use organs to save people. When I read this I thought about 'The Matrix'. But you are not saying "We are not using humans for batteries we are using them for organ to save lives".

I dont live my life through the movies but some of them make some good points. I end with T2, when Sara Connor tries to kill Mile Dyson so stop the robots from taking over. Of course Arnold and the son shows up and Mile says "How was I suppose to know that this would happen", in which she respond with the "People like you made the A-bomb".

I was gonna end but I had another thought. Sara didn't kill Mile because she couldn't kill him to save millions. In Swordfish, John Travolta asked Hugh Jackson, if he could kill an innocent little could if by doing so he could have the cure for cancer.

In closing Matrix Reload comes out in May and the 3rd installment comes out in November. X-Men is also next summer with LotR to close out what should be a hugh movie year.

sok
Gerad
Sojourner
Posts: 591
Joined: Sun May 13, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Contact:

Postby Gerad » Tue Dec 24, 2002 5:02 pm

Omg sok, you went from genetics to cloning to movies, to end with the statement that 2003 should be a great time to go see a show...


Walnut frogs dancing in string!

-Gerad

------------------
Auril tells you 'Yes, we're plotting the destruction of all that is holy - and unholy, too. Just to be thorough.'
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby moritheil » Tue Dec 24, 2002 8:57 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Musi:
<B>Oh, well. I guess I'm a bad Christian Image
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're not a bad Christian for wanting good things to happen to others - that's the essence of your religion, right?

I think the main argument against stem cell research is, as Ashiwi said, ethical, and not religious per se.

It's a line that should be very cautiously crossed, if at all. And this comes from a guy who does biomedical research.

Many scientists think long and hard about the implications of what they're doing. Sadly, not all do.

------------------
Toarn group-says 'my lvl 50 buffer has officially been Mori-fied.'
Shevarash tells you 'you want to mud marry me? *scratch*'
Zellin
Sojourner
Posts: 173
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Zellin » Wed Dec 25, 2002 12:10 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by rylan:
<B>Thats a scary thought Thanuk :P

Anyway, I don't think stem cell research should be used to help extend peoples' life to some nasty point where they are a mess. What I think it should be used for is to give people a chance who have a defective organ or some disease that makes their life harder.. such as bone marrow transplants for lukemia and cancer patients, diabetes, kidneys, heart etc. Those organs won't make a person who is already 100 live until they're 150, but it can certainly help a 30 or 40 something person stay around with their family.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Stem cell research shouldn't be used to extend our lives to a messy point? We don't need stem cell research to do that. Human beings already live well beyond any sort of natural lifespan. Never will you see any animal in the wild reach the sort of age-induced physical decay that humans experience. We regularly live into our seventies, far beyond an age where our slow, decrepit asses would have been killed by some horrible beast with claws and razorblade mounted laser cannons for teeth. We don't evolve. We let our technology do it for us, and it's starting to show. For Christ's sake, just look at Michael Jackson. Cyborgs are in our midst, people, and they THIRST FOR BLOOD.

I understand that all of this is a different story for the person who has a dying relative who can be saved by this sort of atrocity (I mean medical miracle, ahem). Do we really need to be this selfish, though? Quality of life, indeed. *snort*

------------------
Zellin group says 'I'm still here buddy =)'
Zellin has left the group.
Kifle
Sojourner
Posts: 3830
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Huntington, IN USA
Contact:

Postby Kifle » Thu Dec 26, 2002 6:30 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B> Electricity, anti-biotics, pennicillin and the like were discovered through research, not playing. Ben Franklin didn't "play" with electricity, he tied a key to a string on a kite and let it hit him. Pennicillin was discovered by watching bread mold, not by breaking it down molecularly and forcing it to mold in new and different ways. As for "playing" your right, who needs it. Who needs chloroflorocarbons that we found by "playing" with elements that didn't naturally combine? That was a good find! Also napalm, that was a good find.
The greatest scientific discoveries of our time were made through watching, not playing. "Playing" comes after you have an understanding of the item you are researching. Going in and altering the genome of creatures to experiment with the results is the scientific equivalent of pouring things into your gas tank to see if your car will run on it. Watch what happens when you get up to sugar water!

p.s. It doesn't count as picking on me unless you win the argument Image


</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hrm, maybe your idea of play came out of the 2nd edition retard's dictionary or something. My daughter "plays" with things she has never seen to "understand" them all the time. It is the nature of being human. And the last time I check, most, if not all, experiments were considered as "playing" with certain things to understand or manipulate them. It seems you have tried to twist the meaning of the word play rather than win the argument. This tactic may work in your kidergarten class, but not on this board, nuk.

But I am sure I could hire daz to do some internet searches for me to find many many neato inventions and discoveries that came through your idea of playing as well.

------------------
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Dartan tells you 'i own so hard sometimes it makes me want to cry'

Nitupopple group-says 'esrel get glorishan off'
cherzra
Sojourner
Posts: 1868
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Holland

Postby cherzra » Thu Dec 26, 2002 11:32 am

Research = good.

Anyone who says that Msc. and Phd. scientists are "playing" and "have no idea what they are doing" clearly never went beyond high school.

You simpletons can thank people like that for everything in your daily lives, from running water to the computer you are now sitting behind.

You sound like those people who refuse to be organ donors, but who DO expect one themselves when they need one.
thanuk
Sojourner
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby thanuk » Thu Dec 26, 2002 2:26 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kifle:
<B> Hrm, maybe your idea of play came out of the 2nd edition retard's dictionary or something. My daughter "plays" with things she has never seen to "understand" them all the time. It is the nature of being human. And the last time I check, most, if not all, experiments were considered as "playing" with certain things to understand or manipulate them. It seems you have tried to twist the meaning of the word play rather than win the argument. This tactic may work in your kidergarten class, but not on this board, nuk.

But I am sure I could hire daz to do some internet searches for me to find many many neato inventions and discoveries that came through your idea of playing as well.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does your daughter play with bleach to find out how it works? Or do you not let her...
Why not let her discover the joys of household cleaners for herself! It will be a learning experience. You dont, and you know why? Because bad things will come of it. Im not against research, or science at all, which is what you are trying to twist this into. But i am against severely tempermental research in areas that we have little understanding, im sure if you wanted to bother you could find hundreds of instances of nuclear research gone wrong in a whole number of countries. How is chernoble this time of year? Oh btw cherzra, anyone who thinks every scientist and doctor knows exactly what they are doing obviously never got passed grade school. A diploma doesn't make you God, and it doesn't make you patient or careful or able to predict the future. If your not even willing to queston the actions of a doctor just because he has a degree, than maybe you should experiment with bleach and ammonia Image


------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw

Gargauth responds to your petition with 'whats your point, we hate you'
old depok
Sojourner
Posts: 572
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Philadelphia PA USA

Postby old depok » Thu Dec 26, 2002 3:05 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B> Does your daughter play with bleach to find out how it works? Or do you not let her...
Why not let her discover the joys of household cleaners for herself! It will be a learning experience. You dont, and you know why? Because bad things will come of it. Im not against research, or science at all, which is what you are trying to twist this into. But i am against severely tempermental research in areas that we have little understanding, im sure if you wanted to bother you could find hundreds of instances of nuclear research gone wrong in a whole number of countries. How is chernoble this time of year? Oh btw cherzra, anyone who thinks every scientist and doctor knows exactly what they are doing obviously never got passed grade school. A diploma doesn't make you God, and it doesn't make you patient or careful or able to predict the future. If your not even willing to queston the actions of a doctor just because he has a degree, than maybe you should experiment with bleach and ammonia Image


</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Chernoble was not an experiment that went wrong. It was an accident that stemmed from poor application of a proven technology.

"But i am against severely tempermental research in areas that we have little understanding"

So where do we draw the line? We had little understanding of how electricity worked. There are many examples of electricity causing death and injury. Should we not have done research on this area where we had little understanding?

There are countless examples of bad scientific process leading to bad results. There are probably even more examples of good process leading to good results in areas we had little understanding in.

"Im not against research, or science at all, which is what you are trying to twist this into."

"But i am against severely tempermental research in areas that we have little understanding"

So your arguement is that we should only research those areas in which we have thorough understanding on safe issues?

Why bother? I think what you are trying to say is that this particular area of research is one where we have to be even more careful than usuall.

The question is which area are you most concerned about? Is it in the use of the harvested stem cells? Is it in how we acquire those cells? Is it that you are concerned where this process will lead us?

General statements of concern are hard to argue with.
thanuk
Sojourner
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby thanuk » Thu Dec 26, 2002 3:22 pm

My concern is the results and side effects of the research that we cannot predict. If you alter the genome, to say, cause a fetus to grow into a liver, how do you know its going to be fine? How do you know its not going to be cancerous, or altar the genetic structure of the cells it comes in contact with? What side effects will it have on the children of the person who has the organ implanted? Will they be more likely to catch a disease of some kind? This isnt electricity we are talking about man, this is the human genome they are altering. DNA is extremely complicated and humans have very little understanding of it. They cant even find out which gene causes baldness, but they are gonna start growing kidneys and lungs out of stem cells? This is not a wise thing to do. Genetics is a different kind of research than anything humans have ever experimented with before. DNA is the instruction book that comes with the body; it is the information which tells cells how to develop into a human, and gives them defining traits. To start changing things to "see what will happen" is not really the brightest idea. The fact is that we have no idea about the long term effects of any of the things we are doing, and very little short term knowledge. They don't even know if its going to work. So before they start growing clones for spare parts and harvesting stem cells, i think they should have a clearer picture of how DNA works, which chromasomes do what, which ones interact with other chromasomes, and how they effect people over the course of their lives. Until you understand how something works, you can't go around changing things.
Your points about electricity are also mute, as electricity didn't become a staple in society two weeks after they discovered it. it took years of research to determine all its properties, and its occurence in nature. after that research, they experimented on its effects on different elements, metals, water, etc etc etc until finally they had a grasp of how electricity worked, and then found a means to use it in society. Ben Franklin didn't get struck by lightning and then plug his lamp into his ass the next day. They just finished mapping the genome within the last 5 years, and now they wanna go poking around changing things that they have no knowledge of its role in the development of a human being. You have to go slower than that.


------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw

Gargauth responds to your petition with 'whats your point, we hate you'
Yayaril
Sojourner
Posts: 2552
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Green Bay, WI

Postby Yayaril » Thu Dec 26, 2002 3:29 pm

How could a liver with your own genetic make up somehow infect a person's testicles or ovaries and change the genetic make up of their sperm and eggs? Come on, Thanuk; give the scientists a little bit of creedance. Genetic engineering isn't radioactive spiders and X-men.

------------------
-Yayaril
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ashiwi » Thu Dec 26, 2002 3:49 pm

In order to give the scientists the credit due them...

The FDA is an organization known for balking on drug approvals and faulted often for not approving drugs quickly, especially when these drugs are being used abundantly in other countries for breakthrough results.

The FDA approved fenfluramine and dexfenfluramine for public use.

Fen-phen and Redux became known as the weightloss wonderdrugs, and their use spread rampantly among those who wanted a quick fix. It was doled out like candy, much like Prozac, fattening the drug companies' wallets in short order and all were happy.

The long-term effects of the drugs were finally discovered when it was too late. Had more control been maintained over the distribution of these drugs then we probably could have avoided the ugly mess it became. Instead of having a potentially useful drug when used in very specific situations, we now have banned drugs, lawyers growing fat off of fat pharmaceutical companies for way too many bogus complaints, and some very valid health concerns among a high number of people who should have never taken the drug in the first place.

Was this responsible medicine?

Is it ever when human greed becomes the driving force behind the compassion?

Perhaps some of us are too cautious, but the research we're talking about here isn't creating a pill which will give a few thousand people heart problems when they shouldn't have used it to begin with. The people I worry about aren't the evil geniuses who want to create a superstrain virus in order to wipe out the eastern seaboard, they're the ones who are rushing towards a patent and a payday.
thanuk
Sojourner
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby thanuk » Thu Dec 26, 2002 4:01 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Yayaril:
<B>How could a liver with your own genetic make up somehow infect a person's testicles or ovaries and change the genetic make up of their sperm and eggs? Come on, Thanuk; give the scientists a little bit of creedance. Genetic engineering isn't radioactive spiders and X-men.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats a big jump you just made. The way a liver made up of " your own genetic makeup", which it wouldn't be, as it would actually be an altered stem cell of another person that was used to create the liver. They can change the DNA inside of it, but its not the same DNA as what created the stem cell in the first place, so you dont really know what is going to happen.
As for how the liver would effect the testicles, we have this thing called a central nervous system. We also have lymph nodes. These are the ways that cancer of the stomach spreads to the brain. Everything in your body is connected, they are not separate enttities. Regardless of what you think, they do effect people. And no this isnt x-men or spider-man, this is real life. Thats why they can't cure bone marrow cancer and they cant cure any number of other diseases; its how the ebola virus spreads across your body. All your little inside parts are connected, and they all effect one another. Introducing foreign agents into complex body systems is not a good idea.

------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw

Gargauth responds to your petition with 'whats your point, we hate you'
Yayaril
Sojourner
Posts: 2552
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Green Bay, WI

Postby Yayaril » Thu Dec 26, 2002 4:19 pm

Actually, Thanuk, there's a way of manufacturing stem cells by cloning your own dna. They take your DNA and put it into an egg cell, and then stimulate the cell to divide. Then they harvest the stem cells. I think I said this earlier in the discussion. Thus the stem cells they use, will have YOUR DNA. I repeat: the stem cells are your stem cells. So the new liver they grow will have YOUR genetic make up.

When it comes to genetic research, your posts make it sound like someone is going to be genetically altered and then explode in some atomic blast that destroys half the world. When it comes time for my liver to fail, I'm going to choose to have a new grown liver be put into me, or have my own liver regenerated with the use of stem cells, if that's an option. You can choose to die, if you don't believe in the research.

------------------
-Yayaril
thanuk
Sojourner
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby thanuk » Thu Dec 26, 2002 4:38 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by thanuk:
<B> The way a liver made up of " your own genetic makeup", which it wouldn't be, as it would actually be an altered stem cell of another person that was used to create the liver. They can change the DNA inside of it, but its not the same DNA as what created the stem cell in the first place, so you dont really know what is going to happen.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, now read, and then reply.

------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw

Gargauth responds to your petition with 'whats your point, we hate you'
thanuk
Sojourner
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby thanuk » Thu Dec 26, 2002 4:48 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Yayaril:
<B>When it comes to genetic research, your posts make it sound like someone is going to be genetically altered and then explode in some atomic blast that destroys half the world. When it comes time for my liver to fail, I'm going to choose to have a new grown liver be put into me, or have my own liver regenerated with the use of stem cells, if that's an option. You can choose to die, if you don't believe in the research.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When it comes to genetic research, my posts make it sound like they could change the wrong enzyme combination, and screw up everything. Muscular dystrophy, anemia, mental/physical retardation, and any other genetic-predisposed condition or disease, is the result of the mutation of genes. No, these are not nuclear bombs. They are still terrible conditions, and they become a permanent part of your DNA. As in all your children, their children, etc etc are predisposed to similar mutations until the end of time, because its part of your DNA. Who knows what else can happen when you change the wrong chromasome. You and I dont, and you can be damn sure the scientists doing research dont either. Is your new liver worth having retarded children? If you had this done and your kid came out with MD, would you be upset? When you asked the doctor what happened and he told you, "well we didn't know for sure what would happen", would you be satisfied with that answer? I sure wouldn't.


------------------
Thanuk Pantherclaw

Gargauth responds to your petition with 'whats your point, we hate you'

Return to “S3 General Discussion Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests