Say no to visible exp!

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Vearn
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Say no to visible exp!

Postby Vearn » Thu Mar 22, 2001 1:12 am

i just dont like the idea of visible exp.... what do you think??
Tilandal
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Postby Tilandal » Thu Mar 22, 2001 1:14 am

Um, been mentions in 2 other threads, no more visible exp.
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Postby Malacar » Thu Mar 22, 2001 1:16 am

namatoki
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Postby namatoki » Thu Mar 22, 2001 1:19 am

I said it in another thread and I'll say it here. I don't see what the problem is with visible exp. Please *explain* *why* or *how* visible exp will detract from the mud.

Hmmm... Malacar, care to give this one a shot? All the arguements I've heard against visible exp is either "it detracts from the mud" or "I don't like the idea of visible exp" with no explanation at all.

Look, I'm not for or against visible exp, but I just don't see a big problem with it.

Nizrath
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Postby Gindipple » Thu Mar 22, 2001 1:39 am

namatoki, would you also see nothing wrong with seeing the mobs max HP and current HP?
Or do you like the pretty hurt text?
I think putting numbers in place of text will detract from the mystic of the game.

There's my 2 cents worth of explanation.


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Gindipple (Gnome) stands here.
namatoki
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Postby namatoki » Thu Mar 22, 2001 1:49 am

Gin, please don't throw in the seeing all the numbers bit. I'm just saying what is the problem with seeing *exp*? That's the question. I don't want to hear anymore garbage about seeing the actual damage you are doing to a mob, mob hp, blah, blah...

Nizrath
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Postby Grintor » Thu Mar 22, 2001 2:20 am

This mud has always had a different flavor and ambiance than any other mud, both for it's longevity and the way it simply IS! the fact that you couldnt crunch numbers w hen it came to exp was a good thing. we already had number crunchers for hit/dam, con notches, str notches, agi notches, int notches, we had folks who would roll something, level it to 10 in a few hours, delete it, reroll, etc! hell i remember one bard who did that and it forced a c hange to character creation, but i forget what the result was - was bad though!

if you want to crunch numbers, play a numbers game. being able to see exp on the fly, like in everquest and other muds, will a) frustrate you b) make it obvious to players exactly what mobs give what exp, because sojourn thankfully does NOT have a MOB exp table where any mob of same level gives same exp c) cause a majority of the mud's population to do exp in the one or two zones found to be the best exp ( something that already happens yes, but this will make it WORSE )

also consider that as you get higher in level it takes more and more, even into the millions of exp, to get say 40 to 41. if you realized just how much you are not getting by killing only one mob at a time you will get very, very frustrated. especially with games and muds out there like everquest that make it possible to level say a druid to 50 in a week. sojourn is NOT this style, has never been this style, and adding visible exp will most likely intimidate new and possibly excellent players from trying the MUD.

Just my two coppers on the subject. I had character(s) over level 40 on both toril and sojourn 2, and what i'm seeing is that nearly all of the folks who likewise had characters in this level range on both agree that showing exp as a number is unacceptable, as a graphical bar maybe, but generally dont like the idea. 'Nuff said! :P
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Postby Tilandal » Thu Mar 22, 2001 2:23 am

The problem with showing exp is you will get people saying, no lets go do the overseers cause they give me 5 more exp than catburglers. Or hey A glblin gives me 2 exp so I only need to kill 640 till I get a notch. Or how bout, Hey wizzies used to give me 870 exp, why did you down grade it to 650? I dont think there is a single argument infavor of visibly exp except "Hey whts wrong with visible exp? Its just a number, I dont see the problem."
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Postby izarek » Thu Mar 22, 2001 2:29 am

Bah. Peeps already know mob x is better than mob y for doing exp. Isn't that why groups went swarming around WD killing elites and not prostitutes? If you don't want to calculate exp on mobs and base your exp killin on that, then DONT. No one is going to force you to do it.

Hey imps, end this stupid debate by having a special command usable only at guilds where you can see your exp. That way those who want to see it can and those that don't wont.

Still Cranky Izzy
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Postby Tinnel » Thu Mar 22, 2001 2:38 am

I believe it was already said that numbers were NOT going to be in, but the bar was, I think people are taking the idea of seeing it to an extreme. Thus, make the bar toggable for heck's sake. If you don't think people are smart enough to already say well...3 hours of goblins gives me 3/4 of a level and 3 hours of overseers gives me 1.5 levels you're wrong. That's why certain areas are more popular than ever. Look at the ship in HP before wipe, didn't take everyone long to figure out that was MEGA exp. There's obviously people for and against, if I'm not mistaken like I said the number issue is nil. Just make the bar a toggable option.

T
Tilandal
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Postby Tilandal » Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:06 am

If you want visible exp soo much I can make some triggers that make up random numbers for you every time you kill a mob based on how close you are to your level. Just as good as visible exp, heck maybe even better.
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Postby namatoki » Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:24 am

Ah, thank you for those informative arguements. I finally squeezed some valid points out of some of you...

Now, let me play devil's advocate. Okay, I know that there are tons of mobs on Soj. So, the x mob gives me more than y mob arguement is moot. With visible exp, people can find new mobs to do even better exp. It gives a chance for the less informed to level as well as the informed. I know that the powermudders (or elites) have a set routine to get them to levels. But what about the players who don't know what is good exp and don't have a routine? With visible exp, they can now determine what mobs will help exp them better.

Hmmm... I really don't see how seeing exp would frustrate any more than not being able to see exp. I remember countless hours playing a newbie necro and wondering when the heck I was gonna get that next lvl. I found it more frustrating that I had no clue when my next lvl was coming. Most people who already have played on Soj know that it takes a while to get high in levels so with visible exp, you can get a better idea of just how long it will take to get you to 50.

I know that the imms already pulled the plug on visible exp and I don't mind the exp bar idea. I just wanted to hear why people were so against visible exp.

To each his own...

Nizrath
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Postby Tinnel » Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:27 am

LOL Til,

I don't think that was the point. I am well capable of doing the same thing. As I said though, the bar has been decided on far as I can tell, I don't see it being that hard to make it a toggle, thus everyone gets what they want. I think the reasons for seeing it are very valid for some. Call it laziness if you will, I call it common sense. Is it really killing anything to not make a person walk all the way to town to see their exp? I said in the other post on this, I hate, hate, hate knowing I need to log, getting all the way to town and finding out that one more kill would have leveled me. Specially if that's a circle level.

T
Thalor
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Postby Thalor » Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:36 am

Hehe, remember those MUDs you tried out after Sojourn shut down? You know, all those tacky ones with Smurf Village and players named DragonMasta? Man, they were awful.

Woah, why didn't Sojourn ever have a Smurf Village? All those other MUDs had it, and some players seemed to like it. We should add one!
It'd be sooo cool, we could form huge groups to kill Papa Smurf and do Sneezy Smurf's quest. I mean, yeah, it disrupts the RP atmosphere and all...but you can just stay away from the place if you want to RP. Then the players who are just in it for the hack-n-slash can go kill Papa Smurf and grab his flowing white beard of doom! I don't see any problems with this. I mean, those who want Smurf Village can run around in it, and those that don't won't have to.

*scratch* But for some reason I think the staff just won't add it, even though interaction with the zone would be completely up to the individual player.

Ok, I know - adding Smurf Village is far more extreme than viewing EXP, but the same principles apply. Something like this won't destroy the game, but it's the little things that make up the game. When you start chipping away at the little things like this, it hurts the quality of the game just a tiny bit. Why chip away at the quality of the game? It's the quality that sets Sojourn apart from the rest, it's the quality that makes it fun, the ability to view EXP doesn't.

Besides, I've seen no great demand for the ability to see EXP(even in graph-bar form), and I've seen quite a bit of people opposed to the idea, and giving what I think are good reasons of why not to do it.

Err, now go re-read Grintor's post because his probably makes more sense than mine =P


-Thalor
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Postby Sarvis » Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:45 am

Heh... I hate the idea of seeing exp. It just takes too much away from the atmosphere of the game. I've even toyed with the idea of getting rid of seeing the "You recieve your share..." message. I know, I know... so many triggers would get broken... heh. Image But the thing is that exp doesn't exist in the RP sense, it's just a number the game uses to judge when we are more skilled than we were before. Seeing exp takes away a lot from the RP feeling because now I'm adding up the totals of a game character.

Sarvis
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Postby Tinnel » Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:52 am

Your idea of chipping away and my idea of adding to the effect are two different things, naturally. So if I had the pleasure of grouping with you I would revel in the time it took me to say "lemme word rq and see what notch I'm at, I'll brb" and know that you are losing exp time in the meantime. Think about it please. Yes the smurf village thing was extreme. If it's a moot topic it's moot, I'll drop it, I don't want it to sound like I'm making this HUGE deal over it, I just think it's worth fighting for if the opportunity is there.

T
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Postby Harthorm » Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:59 am

Bah! I for one am in favor of seeing exp. I, too, find it more annoying not knowing or running all the way back to town than having a not-too-specific exp bar show me my exp.

As for RP degradation or whatever you want to call it, give me a break! If you've played D&D, you know your character will level within a certain number of exp points (although this is influenced by the DM), and you know all of the numbers and stats of your characters. Did this ever stop you from RP'ing? *snort*

And besides, this is such a piddly thing to argue about. I mean, I'm sorry, as was mentioned above, put in a toggle and don't worry about it! Why am I even discussing it, anyway?

Harthorm/Twiblin "Bah!"

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Postby Raiwen » Thu Mar 22, 2001 4:13 am

I think the graph bar is a bad idea anyways. From Toril:
After a few levels, some instruction in the ways of talking to your guildmaster and the exp command, you could see if you were "grinning", halfway, well on your way, etc. I remember running to the guild during a break of exp and telling my buddies "level 35.6! I notched!" or something similar. Does not take a rocket scientist.
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Postby Tinnel » Thu Mar 22, 2001 4:31 am

Neither does typing "tog exp" take a genius. You guys are missing the point, and that is the time wasted by walking to town to see your exp. The way "you" play and the way "I" play are two different things. Anyhow enough of this, I'm dropping it. One way or another either I have to walk to town or you have to see the bar.

T
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Postby Hathgar » Thu Mar 22, 2001 4:35 am

I wonder if all of you bitch this much when you play tabletop dungeons and dragons. Exps are exps, in either form, the arguement is the same.
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Postby Jegzed » Thu Mar 22, 2001 4:44 am

Is this a group of communists?

"I don't want to see numbers, so nobody else should see numbers"

feh, make exp numbers a toggle or something, people always calculate how many guardians each notch is anyway (*poke Zajan*).

/Jegzed
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Postby cherzra » Thu Mar 22, 2001 7:27 am

Yeah, make it a toggle. I'm tired of people posting 1000 threads about how they don't want to see it, because some of us do.

Cherzra wants to see it (Troll) stands here
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Postby Jogg » Thu Mar 22, 2001 8:31 am

i agree with that "toggable" exp bar. just to express my support on this
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Postby Ruagh » Thu Mar 22, 2001 8:58 am

Well. I just want to say why I dislike bar idea. About tabletop ADND - I dont know how YOU've played it, but WE knew our exp level after finishing today's round. And DM was saying only TOTAL amount of exp earned by each player, not something like "You had 10 exp for each goblin and an additional 75 exp for that hobgoblin". I played a lot in MUDs with Smurf Willage and exp numbers, but I always had a feeling that there is something wrong with that MUDs. After finding Toril, I have never played them... Toril has a completely unique 'medieval' atmosphere. And about running to the town to see if you notched - I am just PLAYING. I look to my current exp level only when I practice some skills in a guild. I think THIS is a true roleplaying... Ok,ok, this is just my PERSONAL opinion.
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Postby Drogga » Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:21 am

I agree with Ruagh 200%.... thats what make the mud different than any other muds. excellent and unique medieval environment which create that special feeling when we play. tell me im crazy but id rather run to my guild to check my exp rather than have it in my score window...

see ya around this monday Image
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Postby Sarvis » Thu Mar 22, 2001 11:52 am

Actually not all of us run to town whenever we wanna know exp. I usually only check when I'm stuck in town and can't finda group... heh. That's another thing too... it's kind of a nice surprise to come back to town from a long exp run and find out you've gained 4 or 5 notches, but it would just be "normal" if you saw every point yo ugained... there would be no pleasant surprise in the end.

The problem with making it a toggle is that I'd have to be an idiot not to use it. I mean as much as the RP sense is there it's still a game that I should try my best to do wel in... and that would mean toggling exp on even though it detracts from the game for me. Because knowing how much exp you are getting is more advantageous than not knowing.

Sarvis
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Postby Wobb » Thu Mar 22, 2001 12:12 pm

keep exp visible

.
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Postby Malacar » Thu Mar 22, 2001 12:26 pm

My 2 cents on why numbers are bad.

If you show exact numbers, the game bogs down in logistics for some, and not for others. Think of it this way. If you tabletop role-play, which some of you do, what happens when a character min/maxes? IE - They focus their character on the sheet and numbers, but not on the story and personality. It detracts from the game.

If you kept exp visible, and mind you, I am neutral, I didn't care either way... You will get this: Dude I need 100,000 more exp to level! All we need to kill is... *checks a website for exact mob exp value*... 10 more Moonshae Wizards in a 3 man group! Let's go!

Personally, I would rather be surprised by a level, and if the numbers were to show(which I know thye will not, thanks to Erevan), I would largely ignore it. I wouldn't check it after every kill. It would be like handing your players in a tabletop game the monster manual, and them knowing exactly how much exp they will get from a troll, or an ogre.

The more info you give to players, the more the game bogs down. You need a happy medium. I'm glad they are showing stats. It will save time on having to reroll characters, and database space. I am also glad they give you a meter for exp. It's not exact, and will leave some surprise for when folks level.

I just drove through like 4 inches of water on my roads to get to work, so am a bit frazzled, hope this post made sense. Image

Mal
namatoki
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Postby namatoki » Thu Mar 22, 2001 2:10 pm

Yay! Some great points on either side of the visible exp debate.

I still disagree that being able to see your exp will cause less RPing. If you want to RP, are you not going to continue to RP regardless of being able to see stats and exp? Are you saying that the invisible exp will *force* you to RP? I just don't see this. True RPers will continue to RP no matter what, IMHO.

Nizrath
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Postby Malacar » Thu Mar 22, 2001 2:29 pm

Namakatomi, I agree... However I see it detracting not from RP really, because as you said, RPers will always RP... I just see everyone categorizing things, like quests, exp for mobs, exp tables for classes, exp per spell cast, etc... I dunno, I like a little bit of mystery to my games. Image

Mal
izarek
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Postby izarek » Thu Mar 22, 2001 4:06 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Hathgar:
I wonder if all of you bitch this much when you play tabletop dungeons and dragons. Exps are exps, in either form, the arguement is the same. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ROFL! Oh everyone has to experience at least one campaign with someone who argues rules all the time. Helps put the good campaigns in perspective. I had the truely enjoyable experience a couple years ago of being in a campaign with a DM that constantly changed the house rules all the time in addition to a player that argued about the rules. OMG that was quite a combination. They argued all the time. The rest of us players either played peace-maker or just left altogether to play starcraft. hehe.

Izzy
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Postby Sekon/Fanil » Thu Mar 22, 2001 5:24 pm

Why must all you Rp'ers try to force those of us who can't RP worth a crap to play your way? I've NEVER played D&D (except the old SSI gold box) I could care less how a elf talks. Or how a dwarf would act in a group with a necro. I don't enjoy RP at all. I enjoy the game.

EVERY posted arguement against showing XP numbers is the same, It would destroy the RP or the FEEL. so U don't want it. And to force everyone else to play YOUR way, U don't even want it as a toggle-able option for those that do. shesh grow up and stop being so selfish.

-Flame done. now starting personal opinion-

I don't care one way or ther other. show it or don't it a mute point. I'd be happy with the old exp if it was available anywhere instead of just at yer master.
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Postby Tayros » Thu Mar 22, 2001 7:16 pm

From the "Rolling Stats?" thread, compliments of Vigis:

*snip*
...make it impossible for them to toggle RP. Real Role Player wouldn't want to know exp...
*snip*

Gotta agree...

Tay
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Postby Gene Quagmire » Thu Mar 22, 2001 7:33 pm

I thought about this a lot. I almost think it should be a togglable option. I wouldnt use it, but those who want to "maximize" their time could. *shrug* I always liked it the old way.

------------------
The Mangler.
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Postby Cazin » Thu Mar 22, 2001 7:34 pm

seeing numerical exp stats suck, brings me back to the days where i played gay muds with midgaard in it.

so i say no to visible xp, i liked it was before. i dont need to know when EXACTLY im gonna level :P i like the surprise
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Postby belleshel » Thu Mar 22, 2001 7:41 pm

What was the problem with making it toggable?
If you don't want to see it, fine don't toggle it on. I like to maximize my xp time, thus I'd like to see the numbers. Doesn't hurt the mud, or the folks that don't want to toggle it...just another 'feature' that many would enjoy.
Belle
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Postby Iaiken » Thu Mar 22, 2001 9:05 pm

See, after the mud shut down, I went on to join where all of my freinds had been mudding, it was a smaug based mud, BUT it was "like" Toril. The only real dif was that ALL of the numbers were available. They was NO discovery. You could see the exp gained from combat and the amount needed to level.

In a pen and pencil roleplaying systems this is unavoidable, but those games rarely(there are some sad examples) revolve around the advancement so much as the ongoing story.

But Muds don't have this problem, most of the action should remain "behind the scenes" I was actually liked only being able to see "I expect you to level any time now" rather than 6,000exp to next level.

I beleive others also said that the mud was different because it had a certain mystere to it. I agree completely, if you take away the things that make the MUD different then why not just choose a mud at random?

I loved Sojourn also because of it's difficulty. You could fight two things that both con'd the same, but one would fall quickly and the other may take you to the edge of death. After all, apearaces can be decieving and if you could see the numbers than you could hucker down and be cautious.

I say, the less you know on a mud, the more time you can spend interacting and exploring, rather than working around the numbers. That, after all, would just make you another bot...

Iaiken, Paladin of Torm
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Postby Ragorn » Thu Mar 22, 2001 9:38 pm

I agree, to a point. Not knowing details enhances the mystery behind a MUD, but I don't want that to go so far that we don't know what anything does.

A lot of the old help files were REALLY vague. Telling me that blur "improves your chance of surviving in combat" really isn't helpful at all, especially when the spell had no visible effects.

- Ragorn

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