America and the rest of the world

Sarvis · Postby **Sarvis** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 7:35 pm

I doubt any perfect english has been seen on these boards in their entire history. The number of cryptic, small rules the best of us break probably make english teachers laugh their asses off.

eer Vigis:

That's not the point. The point is that Fildur's posts can be a bit hard to understand. I know there are a _lot_ of non-english speakers on here. But most of them can get their points across relatively well. Then again, I've seen some that are so bad I can't make sense out of them after re-reading them several times.

Fildur, one thing would help out a lot. At least for me. Capitalize the abbreviation "US" when you are referring to the country. Otherwise it looks a whole lot like the word "us." Capitalizing the start of your sentences would also help... but we'll use baby steps here.

Oh yeah, and I don't think I've ever seen or heard of any language in which sentence beginnings and proper names weren't capitalized. If you know of some, then enlighten us...

Sarvis

------------------
Every problem in the universe can be solved by finding the right long-haired prettyboy and beating the crap out of him.

fildur · Postby **fildur** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 7:57 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sarvis:

Oh yeah, and I don't think I've ever seen or heard of any language in which sentence beginnings and proper names weren't capitalized. If you know of some, then enlighten us...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hmm, the ancient norse runes didnt capitalize names, i dunno how hindi ppl or chineese do, but if anyone is interested plz start another thread, seems just a lill too ot, feel free to continue in the InLiZ!!-thread, so we can go back flameing eachother on a topic noone o us has any sayso in.....

/fil

Sarvis · Postby **Sarvis** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 8:03 pm

Bleh. Ok ok, but those aren't languages based on the Arabic alphabet. I mean, it's pretty hard to capitalize a rune really.

------------------
Every problem in the universe can be solved by finding the right long-haired prettyboy and beating the crap out of him.

Kuurg · Postby **Kuurg** » Fri Feb 15, 2002 11:40 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by fildur:
 i wont say that the war on iraq was about the oil, its too obvios...

everyone knew before the war that saddam was an evil mf, that dint stop the us from supporting saddam in the 80s...

and the affairs of other nations is none of the us buisness, thats not a matter wether the us chooses to trust them or not.

/fil<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The affairs of other nations is most certainly the US's business. We live in an increasingly global climate. Industrial expansion has created an entirely new sand box in which we all have to mind the cat crap.

Saddam was the lesser of two evils when he enjoyed some limited US support.

------------------
·•Kuurg•·

Tesil · Postby **Tesil** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 1:36 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ashiwi:

The US might not be as forgiving to some cultures for their lack of finesse in our language, but things are changing. Think spanish speaking Americans have to have perfect english in order to advance within the large corporations in the southwest? If you do, think again. The large corporations are learning that they want what it takes to do their job, and sometimes the person for that job might not speak the best english, but when you're a multi-billion dollar industry with global contacts, perfect english might not be necessary.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, you had better think again. They had better have decent speaking skills and damn good written english skills....or they won't get the job or manage to keep it longer than a week if they do get hired.

I've had positions where I've hired managers and such before....if there was one error on the resumes I looked at they got pitched in the trash. If a person shows no attention to detail in their written communications....It is a good bet they'll act the same way on the job. So....they never get the job.

Well, this is off topic for this thread and I'm letting it die....you wanna talk more email me.

Tanras · Postby **Tanras** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 2:45 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tuga:
G'day again

The state of California exports more produce than any COUNTRY in the world. Food is good yes?


That is gotta be the joke of the day?

Australia and I only know about down under, only consumes 7% of its produce and out of this 7% we waste some of it.
To give ye an idea of wasting:
QLD state published in its statistics of 1998 that 7tons of bread each day of that year were thrown away. That is for a population of less than 3mil. Its sad but is true, Australians take for granted their produce.
But back to the point, this means that we export 93% of our produce to other countires, namely Japan, China and Korea which are highly densely populated areas of the world.
Okie so we only got 20million ppl in this vastly large land. Well TOUGH!

Secondly, Bell was Scotish not American!!!!
[b]Alexander Graham Bell's invention of the telephone grew out of his research into ways to improve the telegraph. Born in Edinburgh, Scotland, the inventor spent one year at a private school, two years at Edinburgh's Royal High School (from which he graduated at 14), and attended a few lectures at Edinburgh University and at University College in London, but he was largely family-trained and self-taught.

Thirdly, Internet is not an invention! Else the guys who had the patent for it would be more than trillionaires.
Its only possible if there is high bandwidth digital lines, which, behind them has many other mathmatical theories(not all done by americans).

Lets not bomb the muslims only because they originate from the middle east. Alot of them are very good people and want peace in the world as well. But on the other hand lets hurt these rogue countires and rogue ppl where it hurts the most! Think about where the wealth of these countries, like the Saudis, come from. Now think who, also is making the most of it? Think of who financed G.W.Bush campaign?
Yep World Oil corporations! Well stop poluting the world! start using recycleable energy sources.
US produces 25% of CO2 and CO that goes to the atmosphere per year worldwide! Dont you think its time to clean your act?

I mostly think the same way as the 2% of americans that know there is a world outside your borders.

regards
Tuga[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What really irks me about these debates is that no one seems to know the facts, but everyone likes to think they do.

California is, in fact, the 2nd largest economy in the World. . .behind the rest of the United States.

As far as the Bell thing goes. . .by your definition, the only Americans would be native americans. Most American families originated elsewhere, but when we choose to call ourselves American, we are American. . .as was Bell. Sometimes I wish people from other countries could gain that kind of understanding.

Next. . .just because someone doesn't own a patent, does not mean that it is not an invention. The wheel, for example, is not patented. The internet was largely developed as a means to transfer data within the U.S. Military, but there were many key people from other countries including Germany and Sweeden who had their hand in it.

As for the Bush campaign being funded by World Oil, this is just ignorance. People from outside the United States find it nearly impossible to understand our political system. In many ways, liberal in the U.S. means conservative in Europe and vice versa depending on the issue. Comments like "Think of who financed G.W.Bush campaign? Yep World Oil corporations!" do not make you look smart or informed to us Americans, just ignorant of our political system. As far as the CO2 goes, that is a loaded number. We also do more to rebuild forests and vegetation than any country in the world. So to answer your question, no, I don't think we need to worry about that.

Basically, stop player hatin.

Ashiwi · Postby **Ashiwi** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 5:34 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tesil:
 No, you had better think again.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've seen it firsthand in the Federal Reserve, of all places, Hitachi, and Sunoco... in the corporate offices, not the retail stations, but I guess firsthand experience doesn't count for much. My ex-husband is a high-end graphics designer in Austin, and I know more than a handful of the people he has worked with who had less than perfect english skills, but were amazing coders and artists, and showed it in their work. But I keep forgetting that actually seeing it in action doesn't count.

I don't typically continue an argument like this, I usually try to stay out of them, and I've never had a problem with letting somebody else have the last word, especially when they put forth such effort into getting it. This isn't directed at just you, though, this is a part of this thread, because it deals with the prejudices of the people of the United States against people of other countries who speak english only as a second language.

Perhaps Fildur's post wasn't the most comprehensive (no offense Fildur), and to be honest with you I don't even know if english is his primary language or not, but that does not mean in any way that he needs to be insulted and informed that his opinions mean nothing, or that his points are "meaningless and moot." Yes, if he wants to state an opinion that has an impact on the audience he addresses, he needs to learn to address them in a way that will net him the impact he desires, but if that is not his goal then he should be able to post his opinion in a public forum without being attacked simply for posting in the way he is most comfortable with.

The United States prides itself on being a melting pot of peoples from all origins, accepting of their cultures, their theologies, and their lifestyles. This attitude that opinions mean nothing unless expressed in an "acceptable" American style, however, goes completely against the ideals we profess to hold as a country. Immigrants with nothing struggle to come to this country where they can dream of a lifestyle other than poverty, starvation and repression, and huge numbers of them struggle and work once they get here in order to become contributing citizens who can pass on their dreams to their children.

Our own universities have recruited foreign nationals to teach in our schools, men and women with less than perfect english, but with amazing minds and so much more to offer to our students than precise punctuation. Large corporations routinely headhunt outside of this nation for the touches of genius they are looking for, and english is not their primary requirement. Yet no matter what, a great many Americans still seem to believe that fluency in the english language and IQ must mirror each other somehow.

The majority of our own population has such difficulty speaking the language of its birth, yet we still seem to find it acceptable to demean those who can not only speak the language of their birth country, but can communicate in ours, as well. Even if their control of the english language is limited, they are still accomplishing more than most people who are born here. To say that one mistake on their resume's punctuation displays what slackers they must be, even though they have managed to learn two languages, not to mention what else they might have gone through in order to get to this country and begin to build a life for themselves, is not a reflection of how poorly they have prepared, but how poorly we hold up our own ideals.

Gakka · Postby **Gakka** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 10:29 am

All I have read is the article. And the first message. And I will reply to that.

In perspective: I am a Dane. And very interested in politics, philosohy, and to some extent psycology.

Nationalism, in its purest form is ugly. It must come from the tribal cultures we lived in million of years ago when survival of the tribe wasn't given. Today, it shows its ugly head in the I-am-better-than-you attitude among the uneducated* in our society. (* Uneducated in the sense unintigrated).
---
When a person burns a flag, then I see it as a person, burning a flag.

When a white mock a black, I pity the white.
---
On the whole USA, rest of the world thing then i'm biased because I'm a Dane. I can't understand why the US government always use the hard-on-hard, bribe and assasinate your enemies approach. The few americans I have meet simply seem to clever to vote for such bandits. I don't undestand the "either you are with us, or else you are against us, and don't tell us what is wrong" attitude that the unforunate leaders have to tell the americans that do not understand the way of Tao, or simply the mecanics of diplomacy.

/Disoputlip

fildur · Postby **fildur** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 10:47 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tanras:

As far as the Bell thing goes. . .by your definition, the only Americans would be native americans. Most American families originated elsewhere, but when we choose to call ourselves American, we are American. . .as was Bell. Sometimes I wish people from other countries could gain that kind of understanding.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

so, if i choose to call myself american i am an american? holy mother of jeeeezus, lezz all start calling our selves nobel prize winners, that oughta up the iq in this debate, right...

if someone is born somewhere and moved elsewhere at a grown up age, hell still be of his original nationality, if he get kids in the new place, thats another issue.

in some way id like to honour your point tho, everyone should have some right to define them selves in the enviroment they are in, but to go from there to claiming that a mythomaniac that claims the throne of france is the king of france its a _big_ step.

anyway, whats the deal w bell being american or not, who cares, does it make america better or worse in some way, does it affect moral judgement on american foreign policies the tiniest little bit? james watt was brittish, does that justify the boer-war? heidegger was a nazi, does that justify belsen?

why cant i have t-bone steak, some chili and a bud if i reject all the foreign policies of mr bush?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tanras:

[snipped some good points]
Basically, stop player hatin.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i couldnt agree more than i do, its importyant not to confuse why we all are into mudding, its not because we agree on the state of world politics/economics, at least im into it cause i like killing dragons etc...

if ye want to find ppl that agree with you on politics, join a political party.

this is not saying we shouldnt have this discussion tho./fil

fildur · Postby **fildur** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 10:56 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Kuurg:

Saddam was the lesser of two evils when he enjoyed some limited US support.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

why? cause saddam never overthrew the shae (or however its spelled). and how was the support limited, and why arent turkey considered a rogue-state?/fil

cherzra · Postby **cherzra** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 12:06 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tanras:
As far as the CO2 goes, that is a loaded number. We also do more to rebuild forests and vegetation than any country in the world. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excuse me while I laugh... you do more to destroy the environment than the whole other western world combined. You produce so much waste it is just absurd. Your cars guzzle so much gas that non-american cars can drive four times as far on the same amount. Yes, I too think that damage from CO2 is hyped, but reducing the output is never a bad thing. And the US stance on it... go read http://www.greenpeace.org/~climate/climatecountdown/documents/bushclimate.pdf The American lobbying/political funding system is just so flawed, that I can hardly call it democracy anymore. The more you 'donate', the higher the probability that the president will pass some nice laws especially for you. Anyway, it's not even needed to argue this point, fact is that the US is pumping the world full of shit on all environmental fronts and not giving a crap.

Corth · Postby **Corth** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 2:37 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Gakka:
All I have read is the article. And the first message. And I will reply to that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for actually reading the first post and responding to it

Nationalism, in its purest form is ugly. It must come from the tribal cultures we lived in million of years ago when survival of the tribe wasn't given.

Is 'survival of the tribe' ever a given? Particularly when we wake up every day in a world with nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons that can kill every person on the planet? I am not so sure.

Today, it shows its ugly head in the I-am-better-than-you attitude among the uneducated* in our society. (* Uneducated in the sense unintigrated).

I assume you are refering to America as the 'uneducated', and thus 'unintegrated' country. It becomes more clear in the end of your message when you refer to a failure to understand the 'mechanics of diplomacy'. I think this is a fair point. The U.S., separated from the rest of the modernized world by two oceans, has a tradition of doing its own thing regardless of anyone elses opnion. It also fits in with the strident capatalist philosophy underlying the country, which never took hold in the same way in Europe. You also speak of being biased later, because you are a Dane and presumably understand the world in a way unique to your culture. As someone from another culture reading what you write, I would agree.

On the whole USA, rest of the world thing then i'm biased because I'm a Dane. I can't understand why the US government always use the hard-on-hard, bribe and assasinate your enemies approach. The few americans I have meet simply seem to clever to vote for such bandits. I don't undestand the "either you are with us, or else you are against us, and don't tell us what is wrong" attitude that the unforunate leaders have to tell the americans that do not understand the way of Tao, or simply the mecanics of diplomacy.

In my world-view, the 'mechanics of diplomacy' is corrupt. International law and particularly the organizations formed pursuant to it, is corrupt. There is a right side of the fence, and a wrong side of the fence. At least when it comes to issues like terrorism and weapons of mass destruction. There isn't any room for civilized discussion about these uncivilized subjects. And being a millitary superpower, the U.S. has the luxury of punting the corrupt rhetoric of negotiation and doing what is right.

Corth

Corth · Postby **Corth** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 2:43 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by cherzra:
Excuse me while I laugh... you do more to destroy the environment than the whole other western world combined. You produce so much waste it is just absurd. Your cars guzzle so much gas that non-american cars can drive four times as far on the same amount. Yes, I too think that damage from CO2 is hyped, but reducing the output is never a bad thing. And the US stance on it... go read http://www.greenpeace.org/~climate/climatecountdown/documents/bushclimate.pdf The American lobbying/political funding system is just so flawed, that I can hardly call it democracy anymore. The more you 'donate', the higher the probability that the president will pass some nice laws especially for you. Anyway, it's not even needed to argue this point, fact is that the US is pumping the world full of shit on all environmental fronts and not giving a crap. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heheh, I'm sorry but when I see a cite to greenpeace I dont become convinced in any way, I get suspicious of the author. They're agenda of radicalized environmentalism at the expense of blue collar jobs is particularly disgusting. There are plenty of environmental groups with a less radicalized approach that you can cite to.

Even if its bush administration document, I'm sure its taken completely out of context. In all likelihood, I'm guessing its some sort of summary of their policies written by one of their partisan radicals. In any event, I'm not going to give their site any traffic.

Corth

[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 02-16-2002).]

Tanras · Postby **Tanras** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:50 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by cherzra:
Excuse me while I laugh... you do more to destroy the environment than the whole other western world combined. You produce so much waste it is just absurd. Your cars guzzle so much gas that non-american cars can drive four times as far on the same amount. Yes, I too think that damage from CO2 is hyped, but reducing the output is never a bad thing. And the US stance on it... go read http://www.greenpeace.org/~climate/climatecountdown/documents/bushclimate.pdf The American lobbying/political funding system is just so flawed, that I can hardly call it democracy anymore. The more you 'donate', the higher the probability that the president will pass some nice laws especially for you. Anyway, it's not even needed to argue this point, fact is that the US is pumping the world full of shit on all environmental fronts and not giving a crap. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cherz,

You are quoting greenpeace on republican policy. Please don't do that. I see greenpeace as an organization that is 95% psycho and a lot of people agree with me. If you want to quote something, please try to pick something that is a little impartial.

As far as the Bell thing goes, you are the one who brought it up and now yer asking why it is such a big deal? It isn't, he was an American. Being American is an official thing, he was in America and was a citizen, that makes him American in my book. You can't declare you are a Nobel laurete without a board saying you are. You can't claim to be American without having citizenship, very simple concept.

Tanras

Tanras · Postby **Tanras** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:52 pm

er ya, what corth said

cherzra · Postby **cherzra** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 7:30 pm

I took that file from Greenpeace as an example, don't hide behind the 'defense' that they are of ill repute because I can find you a dozen more from other sources.

As far as Bell goes, I never entered in that discussion, so get your facts straight. Bah I hate it when people can't even pay attention.

Tanras · Postby **Tanras** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 7:54 pm

Cherz,

Bell comment was not aimed at you. If you can find reputable evidence I suggest you post it.

Tanras

Sarvis · Postby **Sarvis** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 7:56 pm

Cherzra: Read this: http://dolphin.upenn.edu/~pennenv/greentimes/spring97/air_asim.html

If you really don't want to, here's a quote:

"...Mexico City, a city whose air was
recently ranked by the World Health Organization (WHO) as the most contaminated
in the world. WHO studies indicate that it is unhealthy for huma n beings
to breathe air with more than 100 to 120 parts per billion (ppb) of ozone
contaminants for more than one day a year. Yet Mexico City residents breathe
this level, or more, for over 300 days a year. Over a five-day emergency period last November - the longest continuous period in six years since
the establishment of the emergency warning system - readings rose above
250 ppb, and city hospitals and clinics reported 400,000 pollution-related
patients and 300 deaths. "

Make sure you can substantiate a claim before you make one.

------------------
Every problem in the universe can be solved by finding the right long-haired prettyboy and beating the crap out of him.

Jegzed · Postby **Jegzed** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 8:09 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tanras:
I see greenpeace as an organization that is 95% psycho and a lot of people agree with me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you french?

The coolest thing ever, was when the French deciced Greenpeace was annoying, and just sent their marines and sunk the Greenpeace ship "Rainbow warrior" in the 80's.

cherzra · Postby **cherzra** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 8:10 pm

How on earth does the quality of air over a particular metropolis have bearing on that country's environmental policies?

Does it relate to the amount of waste produced annually?

Does it relate to the amount of resources consumed annually?

Does it relate to the emission of CO2 and other chemicals (And no, fog over one city does not equal CO2 for a whole country)?

Does it relate to the degree of wanton consuming?

Etcetera. The answer is no. The quality of a single city's air is dependent on many factors such as location, weather, industry, cars and others - none of which have anything to do with the points I mentioned above. Your post has zero relevance to this.

[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 02-16-2002).]

Sarvis · Postby **Sarvis** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 8:34 pm

You don't see how the amount of pollution emitted into the air has anything to do with the air quality in that city? I guess I'll just have to back out of this argument then, since logic is nowhere near this discussion.

Well... maybe if I lead you through this?

Your claim: The US dumps more pollution into the air then the rest of the western world combined.

The most polluted city in the world is Mexico City. Which is in MEXICO.

It far surpasses to pollution found in the most polluted US cities.

Therefore, if the most polluted city in Mexico can out-pollute the most polluted cities in America it is a good bet that the average Mexican city is also out-polluted the average American city.

Therefore, Mexico is doing it's own fair share of polluting the world. The major difference is they aren't passing laws about car emissions, trying to come up with more efficient fuels, or trying to keep factories under pollution standards. In fact, one of the reasons many US companies set up their factories in Mexico is because of their lax pollution standards. It's cheaper for them to operate in Mexico where they don't have to keep putting in top of the line equipment in order to keep the air breathable.

Sarvis

------------------
Every problem in the universe can be solved by finding the right long-haired prettyboy and beating the crap out of him.

cherzra · Postby **cherzra** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 8:49 pm

I see. The air over Mexico City is of poor quality, and therefore, the United States do not pollute the world like no other!

Another nice one is that you seem to think that air pollution the only form of environmental destruction, conveniently brushing is other facets aside.

Thank you for letting me bask in your intellect.

I see that the quality of American education is indeed rather poor.

[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 02-16-2002).]

Sarvis · Postby **Sarvis** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 8:55 pm

Right. You don't see the connection between low environmental standards and air pollution, but it's America's education system that is flawed? Well... it is, but that's besides the point. And I wasn't ignoring other types of pollution, we just weren't talking about them. You started this segment off with talking about air pollution and CO2 levels. I'm sure we could look at any other type of pollution and the discussion would turn out the same. Yes, America is wasteful in a lot of ways. But most of us realize we need to change and are working towards it. As opposed to countries like Mexico who are knowingly polluting the environment under the excuse that "America did it during it's industrial revolution, so why can't we!?!"

Oh, and since we aren't insulting each other's intelligence here I won't even point out that I _gave_ you an easy counter argument and you didn't even notice it.

------------------
Every problem in the universe can be solved by finding the right long-haired prettyboy and beating the crap out of him.

Thurg · Postby **Thurg** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 9:05 pm

1) Zagaz, sorry Canada may have thought it up but they sure as hell weren't ever going to get it implemented. The League of Nations fell apart because it had no US backing so what makes any of you think the UN will have any real power if we back out of it or stopped supporting it with our armed forces and other aid.

2) Greenpeace supporters need to be in a mental asylum.

3) Can't remember who posted it but someone said they were glad they only paid 4k for masters, well how much do you pay in taxes now.

4) I have to agree that people who do not speak english well may be highly intelligent. I am taking French and well i know how it feels trying a 2nd language and English is hard as hell as far as languages go.

5) As far as economic policies in US go. We may have higher pollution but we also produce the most and have the highest end technology.

6) Jegzed can you name any other instances of Groguk's question?

7) For those of you thinking you would be speaking Russian instead of German i disagree the Russians would never have beaten the Germans because France and England would have fallen without US soldiers and aid and Hitler would have only one front again. Even with the Russians falling back they would eventually run into the Japanese.

8) I think I'm done ranting...

9) I lied I'm not done. Noone in this world really thinks of the big picture. They only think of the world, guess what there is an entire universe out there that many of us Americans are looking at.

10) Jegzed England and France have been allies to the US since we became a nation. France helped us beat the British the 1st time around. After that we were on and off allies. England liked our cotton too, when we were north and south.

11) Noone in America is American, even the Indians were from Asia.

12) Anyone care to comment on my other post abou us saving economies of other countries?

13) I'm done now...

PS How many people remember what this posted started from. No looking back and cheating now...

------------------
Thurg, Zossonnarr

Gakka · Postby **Gakka** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 9:51 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Corth:
 In my world-view, the 'mechanics of diplomacy' is corrupt. International law and particularly the organizations formed pursuant to it, is corrupt. There is a right side of the fence, and a wrong side of the fence. At least when it comes to issues like terrorism and weapons of mass destruction. There isn't any room for civilized discussion about these uncivilized subjects. And being a millitary superpower, the U.S. has the luxury of punting the corrupt rhetoric of negotiation and doing what is right.

Corth<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, Now we are getting somewhere. Also someone said that "should the people from India then be able to vote in the global village council like they where a billion people, that is absurd". Here we have narrowed the problem down. Now re-read what you wrote, and try to pretend what you wrote is wrong. Just like I have deemed it correct. When I now write some words for it next, then see them as words, not plus and minuswords, but just words (like a man burning a flag, is a man burning a flag).

My view:
Idealistic

Your view:
Realistic
Imperialistic

And then a correction. I would never generalize americans. When You have understood:"I assume you are refering to America as the 'uneducated', and thus 'unintegrated' country" Then you are sort of wrong, the uneducated are found in all countries. In all universities, but mainly on the street. It is the fellow that never loses an argument, made up his philosofical mindset before he reached 15 years and if he is christian then he is a asketic preacher by heart, and don't 'just' live with his religion.
-----

/Disoputlip

WARNING!!! Below is something some may see as anti-american. Hopefully most will just snicker and agree

The whole thing I don't understand is all the crap america produce. Kid television, soap opearas, McDonalds burgers. Ok, insane amounts of tv, incl. jerry springer and jenny johnes. I fail to understand why we import that crap, because it is crap. It deludes society, it literally makes people stupid!

Gurns · Postby **Gurns** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 10:31 pm

In 1995, the best estimate by the OECD was that the U.S. produced about 43.9% of the CO2 emissions of all OECD countries and about 23.6% of the world's CO2 emissions.

http://www.iwkoeln.de/Englisch/trends/t2-98a/t2a-98-t4.htm

The most recent OECD figures are for 1999. The reports I could find on the Web were given not as absolute totals, but per capita.

Sarvis · Postby **Sarvis** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 10:48 pm

"In absolute terms, the USA spends most on environmental protection -
$ 106 billion, or 1.6% of real gross domestic product (GDP). With this latter figure, the USA lies in fifth position, directly after Germany (1.7%) in
the 11-country comparison. With 2% of GDP the Netherlands, Austria and Switzerland
spend most on environmental protection in relative terms, whilst Japan is
the back marker with 0.6%. In most countries environmental protection is
still predominantly a matter for the state. Only in the USA and the United
Kingdom is more than half of all environmental protection financed by private
industry. However, in the other countries too, as, for example, in Germany,
the trend is for the state to be reducing its share under the pressure of
empty coffers. Environmental protection expenditure, increasing in almost
all countries, has begun to pay off. Some very substantial progress has
been made, particularly in combating air pollution. On the other hand, there
is still need for action on waste disposal and water pollution." - http://www.iwkoeln.de/Defaulten.htm

So it still looks like we are doing the most to try and fix up our mistakes. :shrug: And even on your graph we didn't have anywhere near the largest increase in pollution levels out of all the countries listed.

------------------
Every problem in the universe can be solved by finding the right long-haired prettyboy and beating the crap out of him.

Sarvis · Postby **Sarvis** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 10:55 pm

"The whole thing I don't understand is all the crap america produce. Kid television, soap opearas, McDonalds burgers. Ok, insane amounts of tv, incl. jerry springer and jenny johnes. I fail to understand why we import that crap, because it is crap. It deludes society, it literally makes people stupid!

Oh yeah, forgot to respond to that. Err. First, if it's so crappy why do all of you non-americans go wild for it? McDonald's food sells better in places like Japan and Korea than it does here! And don't even get me started on TV. The shows in many other countries are horrid drivel compared to what we have. (Granted, our shows are mostly drivel too... but still

)

------------------
Every problem in the universe can be solved by finding the right long-haired prettyboy and beating the crap out of him.

Tanras · Postby **Tanras** » Sat Feb 16, 2002 10:58 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by cherzra:
I see. The air over Mexico City is of poor quality, and therefore, the United States do not pollute the world like no other!

Another nice one is that you seem to think that air pollution the only form of environmental destruction, conveniently brushing is other facets aside.

Thank you for letting me bask in your intellect.

I see that the quality of American education is indeed rather poor.

[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 02-16-2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes,

Our education sucks, our pollution is horrible, we are arrogant, loud, and obnoxious. We worship McDonalds, and shove our commercialism down the throats of the world. But we also work our asses off.

http://www.sptimes.com/News/090101/Business/Work_week_in_US_keeps.shtml

Ok so what does this have to do with anything. I will try to explain. In MANY MANY ways, we as Americans are spoiled. We have things that most of the world does not. Our education system may be flawed, but it is there, and our collegiate/post grad system is without peer.

Cherz, I truly believe that there is crediable evidence to back up your points(I would just like to read it for my own info). I believe that the U.S. has a long way to go in a lot of areas (education and the environment being up there on that list). BUT. . .we make up for a lot of that with sound work ethic and a drive to support our country.

I make this point because many times I feel that people from outside of the United States feel that we Americans have it easy. In many ways that is the truth, but we have not been sitting back reapiong the rewards of a strong economy not having to do anything. We work our asses off.

Now, as all of you know, the U.S. entered WW2 very late. This, in my opinion, was a big mistake and I am not proud of it, but look at us now. I think we learned our lesson. We were criticized back then for staying out too long. Now, we are criticised by many for overextending our bound in order to ensure safety for our own people and the people of the vast majority of industrialized nations.

Typical responces to this are "we don't need American commercialism". This is just the stupidest thing I have ever heard. If you don't want McDonalds, don't eat there. Clearly, companies and people like McDonalds, Nike, Reebok, Snickers, Hanes, and Britney Spears are popular, otherwise they would not be there. You don't need it, but you want it, so it thrives.

There is no perfect solution for this quagmire. There is only a best solution. I would rather have the United States policing the world than any other country. I trust our government to not only do right by the citizens of the United States, but also to do right by the citizens of the world. This cannot be acomplished without stepping on toes and, unfortunately, hurting innocent people, but we have learned that we cannot sit back and subscribe to the notion that what happens outside our borders does not affect us. We are part of a world economy and part of a world that would hurt or destroy the U.S. given the slightest chance. I will not sit back and wait for a 3rd Pearl Harbor.

Tanras

Mplor · Postby **Mplor** » Sun Feb 17, 2002 12:30 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Corth:

Heheh, I'm sorry but when I see a cite to greenpeace I dont become convinced in any way, I get suspicious of the author. They're agenda of radicalized environmentalism at the expense of blue collar jobs is particularly disgusting. There are plenty of environmental groups with a less radicalized approach that you can cite to.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Today's establishment is yesterday's radical movement (see civil rights, gender bias, sex-preference bias, and any number of scientific theories). Let's revisit this one in 40 years and see how environmental action groups are viewed then.

Mp

Guest · Postby **Guest** » Sun Feb 17, 2002 12:36 am

Europeans who accuse the US of being too quick to jump into conflicts really should take a long, hard look at their history.

If the mistakes of the early-mid twentieth century had been repeated, none of us would be here having this conversation right now.

Do we screw up? Hell, yeah. But if we just sat on our asses, as the Europeans would have us do (and have done themselves recently in situations in their own backyard, like the Yugoslave issues) the world would go to hell in a hand basket quite quickly.

Kuurg · Postby **Kuurg** » Sun Feb 17, 2002 2:09 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Thank you for letting me bask in your intellect.

I see that the quality of American education is indeed rather poor.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have some manners.

Refute his arguments without resorting to caustic remarks and insulting entire nations.

------------------
·•Kuurg•·

Nida · Postby **Nida** » Sun Feb 17, 2002 8:49 am

What we need to do is go back in time and wipe out all of Neanderthal's competitors so it would have risen to its proper glory, instead of getting beaten down in its prime. A Neanderthal society would have been a virtual Utopia. And I think that hats formed for those big sloped heads would look a lot cooler than baseball caps.

Barring that, I think everyone should bomb everyone until about, say, 5,400,000 or so people die. Then we should all refuse to redevelop any technology more advanced than the horse and buggy. We should all farm and live peacefully and happily until everyone left on the planet dies from radiation poisoning, cancer, and accidents involving plows.

... Well, I think it'd be nifty, anyway.

-Nida

Corth · Postby **Corth** » Sun Feb 17, 2002 8:06 pm

Gakka,

I think I understand your position a little better now. Essentially, in your view, the idea of a 'nation' is an extension of the tribe mentality that has been ingrained in us since prehistoric time. In your idealistic viewpoint, there is no significance in burning a flag... a piece of cloth. An act is significant when it effects another human. However, you also recognize the realities of the situation. That nations (tribes), continue, to this day, to further their own interests without regard to the interests of other nations (tribes). However, you urge that humanity move beyond this archaic paradigm.

Believe it or not, I share this ideal. And I think that technology and the globalization that accompanies it, will move us further toward it. It certainly appears to be the trend. However, I dont agree that nationality is merely an extension of our past experience.

Nationality continues to serve a vital purpose. Unfortunately, like in prehistoric times, the safety and security of the tribe (nation) is not guaranteed. Ironically, it is the de-nationalizing influence of globalization which is reinforcing the need for the security of nationality. Certain people, such a Osama Bin Laden, feel that they're culture and heritage is threatened by the corrupting influences of other tribes(nations). To Osama, American pop-culture is an act of war against his people. It makes the youth of his tribe (nation) want to watch MTV instead of study the Koran. So he attacks. His purpose: to wipe out the other tribe. Throw weapons of mass destruction into the mix and you have a very dangerous situation.

The most secure and effective way of defending against an aggresive 'tribe' like Al queda, is to respond on a national level. His target is a nation, so it only makes sense that the bonds of nationalisty within the target nation be strengthened to meet his attack. Hence the irony of the situation. Technology, much of which originates in America, provokes a globalization trend which in turn provokes a nationalistic backlash.. first on the part of Osama, and afterwords, on the part of America. But can you really blame America for wanting to defend itself?

And you recognize this reality. And you also hold onto your ideals. I strongly believe that in time, your ideals will become the reality. I think that now is just not that time. We're still in the middle of some ongoing Hegelian course of history that will eventually arrive at a certain place but hasn't gotten there yet.

Corth

Gakka · Postby **Gakka** » Sun Feb 17, 2002 9:57 pm

Corth writes:
<hr>
The most secure and effective way of defending against an aggresive 'tribe' like Al queda, is to respond on a national level
<hr>
What if the best defence would be to split US into seperate contries, remove the president, and live with much smaller governments. What if the sollution is to stop making items relics because they where in a building where a special event happened. What if the best sollution was to send diplomats instead of soldiers.

If I had told a russian that splitting USSR up 15 years ago would ease world tension then he would most likely feel what you feel to my sollution suggestions.
<hr>
The world in 1936 looks in many ways like the world today, and I don't think people really cared about the atheletics did the heil hitler handsign, but that doesn't mean that they where facists. For me, the flag on the stadium is the same. I couldn't care less about it. What I do care about is if the american public looks at it and thinks: we want blood. I also think that particular flag is politics. And I think politics should be left out of the olympics 100%.

/Disoputlip <-- This is my char, not Gakka!!

Sarvis · Postby **Sarvis** » Sun Feb 17, 2002 10:18 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>...the loss of control by the Soviet Union, of it's surrogates
in the Third World, could be cause for alarm. In fact, in
recent years, the limited number of terrorist acts can
probably be contributed, at least in part, to the
conservative influence of the Soviets. As the Soviets moved
toward reform and peristroka, no longer suited their image to
be seen as enthusiastic supporters of worldwide terrorism.

This inability to monitor and control both internal and external
dissidents and insurgent operatives demonstrates that they
may not be able to control terrorist events as in the past.

Therefore, the independance and reform in the Soviet Union has,
in effect, unleashed their former substitutes and left them feeling
abandoned and angry.

Last and worthy of mention is the emergence of Islamic extremist
groups, who are likely to commit acts of violence against Israel
and her Western allies. Support by Iran and Syria has fostered the
training and equipping of large numbers of fundamentalist "faithful"
who can be expect to do anything, including commit suicide in the
furtherance of their percieved goals. Their vision of "jihad" and
death to the "decadent West" should be viewed with concern.

From:
http://www.emergency.com/futerr.htm
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heh... yeah, the breakup of Russia helped us out so much.

------------------
Every problem in the universe can be solved by finding the right long-haired prettyboy and beating the crap out of him.

ShaylaRose · Postby **ShaylaRose** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 7:23 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ashiwi:
Lalisa,

Who was that one chick who was scared away... Shaylarose? She was very nice, but she absolutely could not stand being contradicted in any way, and took it very personally when people told her to stop acting like she would break if whispered to wrong, and to stop trying to cushion everything she said with "I know I'm new here and nothing I say matters" after she hit level 40-something and had posted over 100 times. I'm a very nice person normally, but I helped make her feel the way she did, I told her to stop using posts as her own personal attention getting forum.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I kind of resent that. I stopped posting/playing because what I said was taken out of context and people started misquoting me or assuming too much. I didn't leave bitter and left with a positive post.

As for the jibe about level 40+, since I had only played here 3 months total, I was still far from considered a veteran when about 90% of the players had been here much longer than I. Everyone was very nice, but my knowledge of the Sojourn's history, game balance, zoning had still a lot to be desired. And while I didn't use that "personal attention" gathering method towards the end, regardless, I still considered myself a newbie amongst my friends who almost always had a ton more experience (regardless of level) than I did.

Sorry to return with a rant, but it was a very uncomplementary post directed my way when I haven't done anything to warrent it for months (if I deserved it to begin with, for that matter).

Jasix Prowlingwolf · Postby **Jasix Prowlingwolf** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 8:21 am

Well damn, I am slow to the party once again.

This is my kind of threat, people giving their own opinions and being open to be slammed purely for being a patriot or having some national Pride!!!

So here's my 3 barrel's worth.

hehe i just thought up another of my pateneted stories to explain some shit but may save it til later...

I, along with most of my country (Australia) are behind, beside and infront of the USA in most world dramas/wars/disputes. Why? cause they are like awesome and shit and we are scared to disagree with them cause of the might of their army or nueclear weapons??? ROFL far from it!!!! We agree more or less with a lot of what they say/fight for. FREEDOM!!!!

BUT having said that just cause we support them and even die alongside them for the greater good of the free world we don't always agree with their methods of more to the point 'their attitude!' Aussies love a good fight

hell we joined BOTH World Wars long before the USA, we didn't wait to be attacked before we decided to defend our nations founders (UK, some of Europe, even Italy/Greece etc etc).

I LOVE a lot of Americans, some of them I would die for. But there a LOT of them that i would be happy to never see/hear from again. Just cause i dont like a few American's doesn't make them all assholes.. But in the same light just cause I like a few of them doens't mean the whole country is just Hunky Dorry with me... The fact that a lot of American THINK they are the best country in the world is enough to push themselves down on the list of those that even give a shit :P

The USA are no angels despite a good effort to wash their hands of a LOT of 'wrong doings' Maybe they do need a slap around the head every so often to try and keep them honest but a plane full of people into a big building aint the way to teach a lesson, that is pure revenge... hehe getting off track here :P

I am curious to know what makes a "great country" What is it that a lot of the USA seem to think they are the best at? Collecting masses of high powered weaponary? having a huge armed force that could invade any other country and probably win? Surely having the most people in prision is a big bonus? What about a high homeless rate? Maybe they the best cause they have more devorces then anyone else? More crappy cars? More motorbikes that rattle and fall apart without constant maintanence? Maybe it's their ability to act and make movies... Or maybe to play sports that no other country really cares to play. Maybe it's their stubborness to still work in out dated messuring systems.. Does working in imperial make them feel superior? In Australia only drug dealer use pounds and ounces... So does that Mean the USA is just a big dope dealer??? They sure have a lot of dopes they could sell :P

Either way I love some American's and I hate others... I the end it is American's that make others hate them and if someone in your coutnry is doing shit to make others hate you then wise up and do something about it.

If you feel hard done by by the way the rest of the world see you then you only have your countrymen and women to blame.

Either way your all deluded, AUSTRALIA IS BY FAR THE GREATEST NATION ON EARTH!!

What makes us so great? Many thing, but mostly most othere countries wold love to be like us but can't be like us, they eithe rhave the wrong attitude, wrong landmass they live on or plain and simplely too wrapped up in their own importance to just enjoy life like a lot of Aussies do.

Great Beer, Great babes, great beaches and great billies!!

You can keep ya neuclear weapons, I'll have a schooner of Black and piss myself laughing at you instead :P

Jasix Prowlingwolf · Postby **Jasix Prowlingwolf** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 8:46 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ilshadrial:
In the end, the United States of America will be protecting your country if you were ever attacked. I think that sums it up quite nicely.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehehehe even tho Australia is concidered one of the USA most trusted Allies (yes words on George W Bush). I do have my doubts as to whether they would come to our rescue should Indonesia decide to attack us... Like the USA has way to much money tied up in Nike shoe factories and other bullshit to warrant saving a little country like Australia that fights at their side when ever asked too....

Want to know why... EAST TIMOR!!! Apparently East Timorese were not really worth fighting for incase they upset the Indonesia... Australia (along with a few other countries) Had to march in there to save the East Timorese even at the expence of pissing off a nation not only closer then any other but out numbering us like 300 to 1.

THAT's GUTS!!!

[This message has been edited by Jasix Prowlingwolf (edited 02-18-2002).]

Tuga · Postby **Tuga** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 10:43 am

G'day Jazie,

<quote>
THAT's GUTS!!!
</quote>

Bah they wont know what that means!!!!
Bwaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

If you are so great as you say you are, I'll ask you this:
How many wars did the US actually win since 1945?

I'll list them

-Vietnam still communist
-Saddam still alive and leading his country into ignorance
-Osama bin Ladin still alive and most likely planing more terror.

GOD DAMN IT!!!
I love what you guyz stand for a shit but if are going to start a job, PLEASE, at least finish it!

Now going back to the CO2 debate thing that I started

<quote>
Therefore, Mexico is doing it's own fair share of polluting the world. The major difference is they aren't passing laws about car emissions, trying to come up with more efficient fuels, or trying to keep factories under pollution standards. In fact, one of the reasons many US companies set up their factories in Mexico is because of their lax pollution standards. It's cheaper for them to operate in Mexico where they don't have to keep putting in top of the line equipment in order to keep the air breathable.
</quote>

Well after this coment from Sarvis I'll rest my case where it comes to your environment policies and money spent to save the world forests.

Secondly, Amazons forest(out last ancient forest) is dying at a greater rate than ever. I only can imagine who is behind that.

enuf said.

regards
Tuga

ssar · Postby **ssar** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 11:56 am

Hey, don't be dissin' Greenpeace.

The attack on the Rainbow Warrior was one of the darkest days in human history.

If more people cared for the environment like most of the Greenpeace campaigns, this world would have a good chance at being a much better place.

Some say Greenpeace supporters are psycho for wearing daggy clothes/dreds in hair, etc, and standing up for one of THE most worthwhile cusues in all history.

Ummm, I say psycho is waking up at the same ridiculously early time mon-fri to a coffee addiction, donning uncomfortable suits/dresses, commuting amidst 100's of 1000's of vehicles to sit in a tower office working on some mundane crap for the betterment of greedy pompous pricks.

Oh wait, the suit's got a gun in his briefcase - "Lets go shoot up the 34th floor, then go down to that forest and kill those greenie bastards for wasting my Oprah timeslot!"

..swats at the air frantically.

Mogr.

Jegzed · Postby **Jegzed** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 12:27 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tuga:
If you are so great as you say you are, I'll ask you this:
How many wars did the US actually win since 1945?

I'll list them

-Vietnam still communist
-Saddam still alive and leading his country into ignorance
-Osama bin Ladin still alive and most likely planing more terror.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

HEY HEY!

USA actually won the war against Grenada!

cherzra · Postby **cherzra** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 12:41 pm

Reasserting world dominance through defeat of the crack 18 soldier Grenadan army rules!

Kallinar · Postby **Kallinar** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 12:45 pm

Seems to me that Azzzmohazzz has the right of it.(reference to his OOC rants :P)
Euthanization of the whole human species please, with a king sized Dr Pepper and hold the onion.

Kallinar
got Moo?

[This message has been edited by Kallinar (edited 02-18-2002).]

Sarvis · Postby **Sarvis** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 2:15 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tuga:

Well after this coment from Sarvis I'll rest my case where it comes to your environment policies and money spent to save the world forests.

Secondly, Amazons forest(out last ancient forest) is dying at a greater rate than ever. I only can imagine who is behind that.

enuf said.

regards
Tuga<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

(1) Since 1999, the farmers' lobby group of the Brazilian National Congress, represented by Federal Deputy Moacir Micheletto (PMDB-PR) and by the National Confederation of Agriculture (CNA) - has been lobbying for a proposal to change Brazilian legislation on forest protection, the Forest Code. If successful, this would allow - among other things - deforestation of up to 50% of private properties in the Amazon region. Besides increasing deforestation, the proposal would reduce and, in some cases eliminate, Areas of Permanent Preservation. - http://www.greenpeaceusa.org/media/press_releases/01_05_21text.htm

Err... perhaps the Brazilians?

Oh, and don't confuse what our companies are doing in Mexico with our national policy. It is specifically because are government has passed tough conservation laws that many compannies have moved their factories to Mexico, where they don't have to deal with those laws. (Not to mention cheaper labor!)

Jasix: I think we would step in to defend Australia. Some of our favorite actors and beers come from there!

------------------
Every problem in the universe can be solved by finding the right long-haired prettyboy and beating the crap out of him.

[This message has been edited by Sarvis (edited 02-18-2002).]

Tuga · Postby **Tuga** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 2:39 pm

Okie its me again

Exactly Sarvis and you wonder why foreigners dont like US much. You just said it but you failed to get it!

And the grand final double money answer is:
(drums are beating)
DOUBLE STANDARDS!!!!!

WE ALL LIVE IN THIS TINY GLOBE!!
DO YOU REALLY THINK THERE IS A FORCE FIELD AROUND THE USA?

regards
Tuga

PS : for those 2% in the USA that know there is a world outside your borders, sorry for all that screaming.

Thengil · Postby **Thengil** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 4:05 pm

Heh, as for the US exporting their crap culture to the rest of the world, we swedes have a lot to answer for as well. I hereby apologize for the following atrocities inflicted upon the world by Sweden:

- Survivor A.K.A. Expedition Robinson
- Most of Britney's and Backstreet Boys's "hits" (Max Martin who also wrote that godawful song "It's my life" for Bon Jovi)
- Ace of Base (aaaaagh! kill me NOW!)
- Big Brother, although I'm not sure we actually invented that crap...

I'm sorry! Please don't smack us up!

-- Thengil, who by the way thinks humanity needs to mellow out and abolish all soverign states... one nation, one people, one humanity

Sarvis · Postby **Sarvis** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 4:21 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tuga:
Okie its me again

Exactly Sarvis and you wonder why foreigners dont like US much. You just said it but you failed to get it!

And the grand final double money answer is:
(drums are beating)
DOUBLE STANDARDS!!!!!

WE ALL LIVE IN THIS TINY GLOBE!!
DO YOU REALLY THINK THERE IS A FORCE FIELD AROUND THE USA?

regards
Tuga

PS : for those 2% in the USA that know there is a world outside your borders, sorry for all that screaming.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Err... perhaps you should explain a little? I don't see the double standard here. America passed laws to protect the environment, so greedy corporations set up factories in other parts of the world. This has cost us a LOT of jobs, contributing to the homeless problem you guys brought up before. Believe me, we don't _want_ these companies to be going to Mexico... but we can't pass laws in Mexico without going in and taking them over. Which we also can't do for many other reasons.

Should we pass laws saying that American companies must only operate within America? Watch how fast they move their corporate headquarters to Australia.

About the only thing Americans can do is only buy things made in America. But this vastly limits our selection, while hurting economies in developing nations even more.

Thengil: *whap Sweden*

Yeah, I agree about the whole one world government thing. But I doubt it will ever happen.

------------------
Every problem in the universe can be solved by finding the right long-haired prettyboy and beating the crap out of him.

Gort · Postby **Gort** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 4:49 pm

Tuga

You didn't hear about our forcefield? We had it installed recently, its spiffy, resembles smog in every way except it keeps all the bad guys out.

Actually on a serious note, I agree w/ Corth and Gakka in their sociological and anthropological assessments of the situation. I think it does go back to pre-historic days for motive, but the concept of the "nation state" is continuously evolving. The question is what direction is its next evolution?

Is the UN the answer, are we moving toward a One World Government where the concept of a nation becomes similar to what each State functions as in the US?

Or, are we on the brink of a dissolution into a more chaotic world political structure based not on borders but religions and ethics? If the US response to recent terrorist acts is that of the broadsword, there is the distinct possibility of the uniting of the Muslim peoples in a common cause, thereby creating another "superpower" in a United Arab/Muslim front. Militarily they wouldn't hold a candle to NATO, but with the concept of suicide soldiers, they don't need to.

As to the environment, each industrial nation kicks its polution into high gear when they become industrialized, and in spite of regulations, most continue to do so. The fines imposed for violating said guidelines are a drop in the bucket to Big Business, 50k is a typical fine, not even a pittance. Only when they are held responsible for their actions, and forced to clean up after themselves, and pay reparations without possibility of declaring bankrupcy to escape it and reforming to continue business as usual will these things slow down. And that kind of thing would have to be global, as if it was limited to one country, the company would simply relocate to a more business friendly one. See ex's given about US industry moving factories to Mexico, and Southeast Asia.

Two big things we as a global population need to realize.

1) Just throw it away? There is no AWAY! (we're all on this planet together, and its the only one we have)

2) We are NOT the great power in the universe. Merely looking at the mass extinctions caused by catastrophic climate changes of the past and realizing they will happen again should be enough to point this out to us. Our socio/political/religous differences pale by comparisson to what we have in common.

Toplack Frostbear

P.S. On a side note Cherzra, The Netherlands is about the only place outside Colorado I would consider living. Great people, wonderful history, and AMAZING women, truly enjoyed my stay there.

Karikhan · Postby **Karikhan** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 5:01 pm

o JESUS I'm joining the rants

sorry im no typist ... i prefer to use caps only to ephasize a point .. i type faster that way...

I breezed past most of the BS .... but have a thing or two to say ...

Yes I am proud American ... I have earned the right to be proud ...

what pisses me off is the sudden NEW patriots ... since sept 11th ... where the HELL were you before that ??? I was onboard the USS Enterprise when the WTC towers were hit .. was watching it on the news as most people did .. as it happened ... i felt our engines come to a dead stop in the middle of the ocean .. then start back up and turn back toward the arabian gulf .. spend an additional month overseas when i coulda been with my kids .. so when i get home i am welcomed like a hero .. there are flags flying from every car, every house, every storefront, etc (course i live in navy town too) ... people CRIED when they saw us come home .... but where the hell was the support before that??? noone gave a shit about us the military members... we live on a lower income scale than we deserve when we defend the US ... i heard once (will have to find it) .. that we were getting a payraise and some celebrity (insert huge guffaw)was freaking out saying we are already overpaid ..) well jesus!! put a price on my life ... put a price on the lives of people we have saved ... put a price on the number of holidays i have missed with my children because i chose to remain a member of the greatest navy in the world ...

there is so much the general public doesnt know about us, the military .. the hours we work (those that know me can attest to this) ... the shit we put up with ... the crummy duty we have to stand .. the cold, the heat (OMFG bahrain is hot in september) ... and we did this all BEFORE september 11th .. why?? because we want the world to be FREE ... and i think thats what drives most of us .....

then there are the asshole americans who are far too arrogant for their own good .. the ones who hide from service, who spout how great america is .. how we kick everyones ass .. get a fucking CLUE ... we arent perfect .. in fact we butt in far too often in things that dont concern us ...

we arent learned in any other country but ours ... we dont learn basic geography about the world we chose to pillage ... we dont learn cultures, or religions .. we are so inferior scholastically (except those who chose to advance themselves) god we are sooo arrogant!!!! i remember being stationed in spain .. and how gorgeous it was .. all the history that was there ... this one couple sticks out in my mind cause they said it was so bad there .. everything was so OLD (laugh) ..instead of enjoying spain and learing its people, cultures, food, and language .. they chose to stay on the base and lament for the day they would return to the US ... god help them ....

what i do ask of others .. from other countries is this ... be patient with us .. we are still learning .. remember how young we are as a nation .. think of us as *new money* .. where we gotta go out and buy flashy new cars instead of being comfortable and subtle about our wealth..... where you all have learned from your mistakes historically.. we are still making our history ... where yours is 2000 years old and more, ours is still only at 500 years and counting.... so when you get impatient,.. stop to think ...

/end rant

-Jen

America and the rest of the world

Who is online