America and the rest of the world

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Gort
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Postby Gort » Mon Feb 18, 2002 5:02 pm

Let me make an addendum to my P.S. from the previos post. Only place I have visited so far that I would consider living outside Colorado. There is still a great deal of this world I have not got to... yet.


Toplack
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Postby Tuga » Mon Feb 18, 2002 5:03 pm

And once again,

Yes Sarvis now you talking some sense to me and I 100% behind what you said there.
But your goverment allowing companies to exploit that sorta stuff dont look good on any foreigner's book.
And even tho I know most of you arent guilty of that sorta thing, but you all get blamed for it.
Believe me man, I like most of the americans I have met on my travels around the world, and I am friend of them even today, but I also seen alot of suffering in some of these so called 3rd world countries. Most blame americans for this suffering and its not a pretty site. Sometimes we can see that there isnt any USA influence but ppl there still blame USA.
I really dont know the answer for this huge international problem but if I was american I would be looking: 'why the hell is that Pakistani after my hyde?'.

One of the biggest problems in the world today does have an hand of USA behind it tho. Its called Israel. I really wouldn'd be proud of that one if I was american.

enuf said
Tuga
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Postby Tuga » Mon Feb 18, 2002 5:19 pm

*worship* Karikhan / Jen,

First american here that I would put in the 2% group of americans that know there is a world outside USA borders.

CheerZ
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Postby Tanras » Mon Feb 18, 2002 5:32 pm

We know of the World outside our borders, we just don't like it as much. Once you guys get running water and electricity, I will consider looking around a bit.

Tanras
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Postby Tuga » Mon Feb 18, 2002 5:38 pm

Hmmmmm didn´t the second largest economy(California *ponder*) have had recently some electricity blackouts? How is that possible in the All Mighty Country of this world?

Trembling with desire
Tuga
Corth
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Postby Corth » Mon Feb 18, 2002 6:18 pm

I found an excellent opinion piece by Jonathan Foreman in the NYPOST which defends American Unilatilism against its European critics.

http://nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/41676.htm

Corth
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Postby Gakka » Mon Feb 18, 2002 6:58 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>I found an excellent opinion piece by Jonathan Foreman in the NYPOST which defends American Unilatilism against its European critics.

http://nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/41676.htm

Corth</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Just a note. The article is written by an american, for americans.

It lack to say that the world will keep hating US for the simplistic approach. He is missing the whole longterm perspective. (I don't even think he understands that the world think what he think the world think)
cherzra
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Postby cherzra » Mon Feb 18, 2002 7:32 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tanras:
<B>We know of the World outside our borders, we just don't like it as much. Once you guys get running water and electricity, I will consider looking around a bit.

Tanras</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Electricity here in Holland never ever fails, which is rather different from what I recently saw on the news about weekly outages in the US... and all our power lines are underground here, which is one step up from poles above ground every thirty feet Image

The way you talk... blech. Just drink a beer, chill out and be normal, stop trying to pretend you are superior.
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Postby Corth » Mon Feb 18, 2002 8:40 pm

actually Cherzra, the power shortages were in California.. or should call it, 'The People's Republic of California'. Yes, California, with the most stringent and nonsensical evironmental laws in the U.S. As a matter of fact, it was those environmental laws which made it too difficult for California energy companies to build power plants there. Guess they got what was coming to them.

Corth
Blung
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Postby Blung » Tue Feb 19, 2002 2:29 am

So Corth, let me understand this correctly. First of, you isolated America from the rest of the world. Now it only certain part of the States against the world since California state's law is different from the rest of the other states?
Tequilla anyone?

Blung take no prisoner.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>actually Cherzra, the power shortages were in California.. or should call it, 'The People's Republic of California'. Yes, California, with the most stringent and nonsensical evironmental laws in the U.S. As a matter of fact, it was those environmental laws which made it too difficult for California energy companies to build power plants there. Guess they got what was coming to them.

Corth</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Guest

Postby Guest » Tue Feb 19, 2002 2:49 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>actually Cherzra, the power shortages were in California.. or should call it, 'The People's Republic of California'. Yes, California, with the most stringent and nonsensical evironmental laws in the U.S. As a matter of fact, it was those environmental laws which made it too difficult for California energy companies to build power plants there. Guess they got what was coming to them.

Corth</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, it had alot to do with Texas companies buying out power plants and taking them down for "maintenance" whenever power usage was stressed. The El Diablo nuclear was down for scheduled maintenance and suddenly a whole bunch of the other plants went down for unscheduled maintenance.

How interesting.
Guest

Postby Guest » Tue Feb 19, 2002 2:52 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
<B> Electricity here in Holland never ever fails, which is rather different from what I recently saw on the news about weekly outages in the US... and all our power lines are underground here, which is one step up from poles above ground every thirty feet Image

The way you talk... blech. Just drink a beer, chill out and be normal, stop trying to pretend you are superior.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And what's the average rate of increase of the population of Holland? Guarantee you it's alot higher in California.
Guest

Postby Guest » Tue Feb 19, 2002 3:03 am

Alrighty.. didn't read all of the posts yet.. got to page 4 love it, hate it. Gotta post will ok.. here goes..

BTW: Dont' have to much time atm.. getting mad at people at work losing concentration. If I dont' respond to any kind of topic noted on account and want to hear a rebuttle from me. Just say ANON what do you think about "this" and I will gladly respond here we go..

Alot of you are FUCKWITS!
*not everyone just most*

I am an American, born, raised, yes I'm proud to be an american and I don't personally give a shit if you hate me for it or not.

If a country asked the US to help, they do.
Doesn't really matter who they are, YES the us is goin to protect they're interests first, no COUNTRY in the world is going spend millions to billions in aid and just sit by and write it off.

If you declare citizenship you ARE an AMERICAN, same is true if you went to CANADA as example. It don't matter where you are born, raised, it's who your citizenship IS with that matters..


GOTTA GO WORKS CLOSING.. GONNA POST MORE JUST YOU WAIT! AND BRING ON THE QUESTIONS I WANT TO BATTLE WITH THE INCOMPOTENT CAUSE IT MAKES WINNING EASIER!
Corth
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Postby Corth » Tue Feb 19, 2002 4:38 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Blung:
So Corth, let me understand this correctly. First of, you isolated America from the rest of the world. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No.. the Atlantic and Pacific oceans separate america from the rest of the world.. not me.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Now it only certain part of the States against the world since California state's law is different from the rest of the other states?</font>


Shrug.. I'm not the one who brought up power shortages in California. But since the issue came up, I pointed out that California, with its European style environmental regulations, basically screwed itself.

Corth
Blung
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Postby Blung » Tue Feb 19, 2002 8:11 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
No.. the Atlantic and Pacific oceans separate america from the rest of the world.. not me.
Nice geography, I wonder what border us to the North and the South. Are those countries or just ocean too?

<B> Shrug.. I'm not the one who brought up power shortages in California. But since the issue came up, I pointed out that California, with its European style environmental regulations, basically screwed itself.

Corth</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah that right, if you're not of us, you're one of them.

Bring me more Tequilla.
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Postby Corth » Tue Feb 19, 2002 9:11 pm

Mr. Take no prisoner,

There is no issue over whether or not America should act millitarily without the support of the rest of the world?

Corth
Ilshadrial
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Postby Ilshadrial » Tue Feb 19, 2002 9:39 pm

I am sorry, but burning the American Flag has a very nasty affect on those Americans seeing it done. American's know that FREEDOM was never given to us, we fought for it. (Best part was when some Afgan Taliban guy was buring our flag and he caught on fire, i nearly jumped out of my chair with joy as he suffered!)

I do not understand why if you saw a Danish flag being burned in disgrace would cause no sort of emotion reaction from you.

Please explain...I am interested.

[This message has been edited by Ilshadrial (edited 02-19-2002).]
Abue
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Postby Abue » Tue Feb 19, 2002 9:41 pm

blahh was going to post something but my thought doesn't fit as well here. I will just say this. The support you talk of is just in the form of yay or nay. Militarily only the red coats come close. If there wasn't so many twisted religous zealots around there wouldn't be much need for as much fighting. Some day the dam Martians are going to come anyhow. Make sex slaves of us for there own amusement. Lets see the Arabs blow them up! Hugh?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>Mr. Take no prisoner,

There is no issue over whether or not America should act millitarily without the support of the rest of the world?

Corth</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Gort
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Postby Gort » Tue Feb 19, 2002 9:49 pm

Abue,

Not too sure about little green men from Mars, I always flash back to the horrid movie Mars Attacks!.

But I agree, we need to find life somewhere other than our planet to settle some of these folks down. The only thing that I'm worried about is us becoming even more xenophobic and deciding we must destroy all non-Earth based life.

Toplack
Nida
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Postby Nida » Wed Feb 20, 2002 12:35 pm

About 1500 or so Arabs in America quote-unquote "detained" almost immediately after 9/11, whether they were American citizens or not. To date, less than half released. The rest continue to be held, with no evidence against them and no access to legal counsel. No information publicly released about their status. I'm thinking there's probably a mass grave somewhere in northern California.

And I'm supposed to support this?

Another interesting point-- not a month before the attacks, Bush was talking about establishing an official Palestinian state. By the end of the year, he was wholeheartedly supporting Ariel Sharon launching waves of missiles, over the course of three days, on Palestinean residences in response to an isolated incident at a border checkpoint involving only four people. And at the same time that Sharon was demanding Yasir Arafat's compliance in finding terrorists within Palestinian-controlled areas, more missiles were being launched on Arafat's police headquarters-- even his own government compound. That's right, folks; it's like throwing a stick, then putting your dog in a cage and poking at it with a knife while you tell it to fetch. Despite Arafat's pleas to stop killing his officials so that he could continue the manhunt, Sharon kept hitting the launch button like the madman he is. And Bush publicly confirmed his approval of Sharon's competent leadership and take-charge attitude.

Count me out of this BS. I want nothing to do with this idiot and his foreign policy of "kill 'em all". Government-supported genocide is not my cup of tea.
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Postby Ilshadrial » Wed Feb 20, 2002 1:08 pm

Hey Nida,

Put your mother, father, or son/daughter in the trade center when it went down and see if you would state those words you just said. I really doubt those Muslims that are being detained were just picked up for the hell of it, after all I am sure there are more than just a few hundred muslims in the USA.

This is WAR, there are no guidelines when dealing with Terrorist.

Support your country and your soldiers, being a patriot.
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Postby Nida » Wed Feb 20, 2002 1:32 pm

I'll support my soldiers all day long; they're the ones dying because our president is somewhat less than intelligent. But I never said I was a patriot, so don't assume, ne? Image

And another thing-- I seriously doubt that all of the people detained were Muslim. Arab != Muslim. I don't automatically assume all white people are Christian. And besides, what does it matter whether they were detained for any reason? They're entitled to habeus corpus, legal counsel, their frigging phone call. We can't suspend civil rights just because a few thousand people died. Guess what? I'd bitch about it even louder if my family had died in the attacks. To think that their deaths had prompted the US government to take such a horrendous sequence of events would make me sick.

There are guidelines when dealing with terrorists, just as there are guidelines for dealing with rapists, murderers, shoplifters, and jaywalkers. No one has a right to rescind a group of people's rights. Ever.
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Postby Abue » Wed Feb 20, 2002 1:59 pm

The only mass grave is in New York! Am I suppose to support this? You are dam right there is going to be a feeling of need to protect our selves and certain Arab nations are supporting this type of terrorist behavior. This is not an isolated event isolated to just USA. This is happening all over the world to many different countries. Not just the west either. In all situations it is causing lots of tensions and hatred agaist Arabs. As bad as that is, these extremist are the Arabs own worst enemy. I feel bad for the Palistinians who have a real beef to contend with. The extremist are not helping there cause. Rather they are hurting it. Mr. Bush may have over reacted a little in the after math of 9/11 on the home front but not with its dealings with the terrorists.

9/11 was in no way justified because the muslim extremist and the Jewish extremist can't get along! Basically both sides of that conflict are to blame. It is the terrorist activities of the palistinians that bring the likes of Sharon to power. It is the terrorist activities of other Muslim extremist groups that make other non-Arab nations stand back just a little when Isreal retaliates. At the same time Sharon breeds the desire for more attacks with its suppression of the Palistinian people.
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Postby Kifle » Wed Feb 20, 2002 2:01 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ilshadrial:
<B>Hey Nida,

Put your mother, father, or son/daughter in the trade center when it went down and see if you would state those words you just said. I really doubt those Muslims that are being detained were just picked up for the hell of it, after all I am sure there are more than just a few hundred muslims in the USA.

This is WAR, there are no guidelines when dealing with Terrorist.

Support your country and your soldiers, being a patriot.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I Have been returning to the discusion page and have seen this thread grow and grow, so I thought I would pop in and take a look.

Usually I like to stay out of things like this, but I can't help myself.

That is Bullshit Ilshad...you really don't think that the US will arrest people and detain them while stripping them of their constitutional rights because of race, religon, or political stances?! I can't recall, but I think we had a problem with pointing fingers at false commies a while back, but I could be mistaken. It is soooo US to point a fucking finger at a certain race even though they might be citizens...maybe not always the government, but the assholes we call neighbors and fellow "patriots". Look what happend to innocent japanese during WW2! I am sorry, most of the incidents and actions after 9/11, IMO, are the cauasalities of fucked up foriegn policy and beurocratic Bullshit. Our moron of a president and rightwing jackasses in various offices are using that event to carry out thier own agendas. They are preying on gung-ho patriots such as yourself and other mindless sheep to have their way...I will bet my liquidated assests that Bushes daddy is pulling the morons strings harder and harder as the days go by just to carry out some unfinished buisness he couldn't complete during his 8 year fuck up.

I completely agree with Nida, we have been asking for what happend for a loooong time.

I appologize if I offended anybody. I am very unhappy about what happend on that day, and I dont think anything justifies death so why bother...I may sound passive, but death leads to death and thats all there is to it.

Why am I not utra-patriotic?! No, its not because I had no friends that were effected by the 9/11 tragedy or even remotely related. I am an empathetic person and know very well what it is like to have a family member and friend die, so don't give me that "You heartless bitch!" bullshit. This is way larger than singular deaths and mourning, so that isn't even a debat up on capitol hill and don't think for a moment that those lives mean very much to poloticians than a few dollars and a reason to push their agendas. It is a sad world and I am a cynical woman.

On a side note, I would also like to say...Screw religon and its holy wars! You sheep go and rage war in the name of some invisible dieties that you fail to prove the existance of. Religon is the cause of this crap, the cause of the holy crusade, the witch hunts, the inquisitions, etc...This would be a better world, even a little bit, if we all got rid of this I hate them because they dont believe in God, I hate them because they aren't Muslim or they are Muslim...Face it, you have all been wrong, are wrong, and will be wrong in the future on what is right, moral, and ethical. Stop fooling yourselves into thinking that your religon is the RIGHT religon and we could stop further incidents as this.

Okie I will stop now....

Kifle "Hit delete Hit delete!" ButteryFingers

Ps...no I am not an athiest and never have been, I believe in spirituality and live and let live (kinda).
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Postby Ilshadrial » Wed Feb 20, 2002 2:02 pm

When I say Muslims I am referring to the terrorist organization, their driving force for their actions is their religion no? That is why they are willing to commit suicide, since they think they will meet Allah if they do so while trying to destroy the evil of the world or something. Or they might just be insane "Arabs".

Our president is far from stupid IMHO. He is a Vet fighter pilot, he knows how to utilize the military, which is a good thing Image

I am not sure if you know inside information on those being detained, but looking at reports and the news, you can see that most of those detained are on some sort of visa. That does not give them the rights of a USA citizen, n'est pas?
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Postby Nida » Wed Feb 20, 2002 2:18 pm

Abue:

Along the same lines, are we going to evacuate all the people that "matter" to the suburbs and nerve-gas our own inner cities to get rid of the scum in there? After all, a few bad apples screwed that bunch over. Their fault for being poor ghetto trash, thus associating themselves with gangs, drugs, and the like. Just like the "terrorist acts of the Palestinians" are just that, right? Sure, we all know that not every Arab is a terrorist, but it's best to get rid of them all, just to make sure.

And I wasn't trying to justify the attacks on the towers with my rant about Sharon-- there is no possible justification for those attacks. Rather, I was merely pointing out that our president is supporting other nations' genocides where they coincide with his own goals. Leader of the free world, indeed.

Ilshadrial:

No, when you say Muslims, you are not referring to a terrorist organization. Again, you cannot generalize, especially in a situation like this. I imagine the pilots of those planes thought that every American deserved to die. I certainly don't appreciate them thinking that way.

Our president is a moron. He launches a counterstrike with absolutely no evidence almost immediately after the attacks; he's damned lucky that it was a proper target. But now he's going apeshit with the military, sending them places that have nothing whatsoever to do with terrorist activity in the US. The man has no clue how to utilize the military. Other people make those decisions for him.

And again, I ask whether it matters if the detainees are American citizens or not. Does that still give the government the authority to imprison them with no evidence? Officials even refuse to comment on whether the detainees are still alive, and they know that in the current social climate, they could get away with shooting every one of the prisoners in the head without even a reprimand. Except from the rest of the world community, since at least they've managed to keep their heads on straight for the past few months.

Edit: Oh, yeah, forgot to mention. When are we gonna nuke Israel? You know, since they kinda forgot to inform us that they had strong evidence that there was an attack against the US planned by a terrorist organization at least two weeks in advance. Well, they didn't forget to tell us; they waited until after the planes hit. Was just wondering if the thought crossed our illustrious president's mind that the entire nation of Israel deserved to die because of their leaders' sins.

[This message has been edited by Nida (edited 02-20-2002).]
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Postby Ilshadrial » Wed Feb 20, 2002 2:18 pm

I don't consider myself a sheep. I have been well educated and I have learned that everyone has seperate values, beliefs, and realities. But, just because the way you preceive an issue if different than mine, does not give you the right to think my beliefs and values are "inferior" to your own.

I believe that our government are trying to protect the security, wealth, and moral of our nation. That is a huge job considering the complexity of our governmental systems. Surely, you look at our president and think, what an IDIOT, but, we do not know what are country is truly facing, we do not know what terrorist activities our governement has already stopped, perhaps some of us would be dead if our president did take such a "GUNG-HO" stance.

What did you think about the Anthrax attack?
If we did not take such a direct and immediate reaction to the events that took place in New York, would our country be plauged with this virus?

I think Bush is doing a great job, and I am glad he had the "balls" to stand up to the plate, and tlel the UN et al. America will not tolerate being attacked by any means!
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Postby Abue » Wed Feb 20, 2002 2:20 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Nida:
<B>I'll support my soldiers all day long; they're the ones dying because our president is somewhat less than intelligent. But I never said I was a patriot, so don't assume, ne? Image

And another thing-- I seriously doubt that all of the people detained were Muslim. Arab != Muslim. I don't automatically assume all white people are Christian. And besides, what does it matter whether they were detained for any reason? They're entitled to habeus corpus, legal counsel, their frigging phone call. We can't suspend civil rights just because a few thousand people died. Guess what? I'd bitch about it even louder if my family had died in the attacks. To think that their deaths had prompted the US government to take such a horrendous sequence of events would make me sick.

There are guidelines when dealing with terrorists, just as there are guidelines for dealing with rapists, murderers, shoplifters, and jaywalkers. No one has a right to rescind a group of people's rights. Ever.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with almost all of this statement. Not long ago I was at a Christian assembly where there was a Christian Palastinian woman was in attendance and was asked to lead the devotion/prayer. At that point in time we heard the side of a story that the US government would never tell. It was a story of a group of people who were suppressed by Isreal and still shunned by there own people. After hearing this story I know in my heart that there is valid Conflict for the Palistinians. I also know that the Bush Administration's trampling of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights needs to be stopped. I also know that all forms of religious extremism violance is evil no matter what. I don't care if it is Christain, Jewish or Islamic. In those situations they claim God to be theres and theres alone. Heeh. as if they had that right to claim that. God does what he does and we... They... have can do nothing about it.

Abue


[This message has been edited by Abue (edited 02-20-2002).]
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Postby Ilshadrial » Wed Feb 20, 2002 2:24 pm

Nida:

If they are not a citizen of the USA, then they should not have the rights of a Citizen.

Look at the way other countries treat USA citizens when crimes are commited. China, Mexico, ect just toss them in jail and forget about them.

I also think that the use of military force is the only way to get our message across to foreign countries who are harboring terrorists. Oh wait, lets send dimplomats, maybe then we can get something accomplished.

It goes back to the world of the old, the powerful rule by the sword.
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Postby Nida » Wed Feb 20, 2002 2:40 pm

Ilshad:

First off: I'm not talking about superiority and inferiority of views. I'm talking about incredible numbers of deaths for literally no reason other than to satiate a nation's thirst for vengeance. I think that if I were an Arab-American, I would certainly not be glad for the "gung-ho stance" taken by the government. This assuming that I wasn't too dead to bother with caring about what stance the government took.

And the anthrax attack? For one thing, that was an American citizen, non-Arab, non-Muslim, who just happened to have the perfect national crisis occur right when he was ready to start sending packages. I don't see where that enters the equation at all. And for another thing, it's a bacterium, not a virus. Image

I reiterate: Citizenship does not matter. If you think that the way other nations treat our citizens who commit crimes in their borders is wrong, then why escalate it to such a grand scale here? And don't forget that not all of the people detained here were aliens. Plenty of US citizens have disappeared without a trace thanks to our upstanding authorities.

I'm not disputing the use of military force. I have said nothing so far about our military, save that it's being utilized incorrectly. Hell, utilize it to its fullest extent; of all situations that call for it, this is the prime example. But there's no point in sending our citizens to die in another country when that country has absolutely nothing to do with what we're striking back against.

Abue:

I am glad that we see on a level after all; there were a few points in your original post that were open to broad interpretation and I regret that I interpreted them incorrectly. My apologies.
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Postby Kifle » Wed Feb 20, 2002 4:00 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ilshadrial:
<B>I don't consider myself a sheep. I have been well educated and I have learned that everyone has seperate values, beliefs, and realities. But, just because the way you preceive an issue if different than mine, does not give you the right to think my beliefs and values are "inferior" to your own.

I am sorry If I souded like I was calling you inferior, dont take it as such.

I believe that our government are trying to protect the security, wealth, and moral of our nation. That is a huge job considering the complexity of our governmental systems. Surely, you look at our president and think, what an IDIOT, but, we do not know what are country is truly facing, we do not know what terrorist activities our governement has already stopped, perhaps some of us would be dead if our president did take such a "GUNG-HO" stance.

He IS an idiot...the man cannot talk, has a limited vocabulary, had his "education" bought for him...If he was not rich he would not have passed the 3rd grade.


What did you think about the Anthrax attack?
If we did not take such a direct and immediate reaction to the events that took place in New York, would our country be plauged with this virus?

I would not call that an attack, I would call that a failed attempt by some backwards jackass with some major wires crossed in his skull. It was poorly executed I would say.

I think Bush is doing a great job, and I am glad he had the "balls" to stand up to the plate, and tlel the UN et al. America will not tolerate being attacked by any means!

Balls = lack of intelligence and too much testosterone.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am sorry, Bush is an ass with strings atatched...I wouldn't willingly let him talk on my behalf to one of my professors about a grade let alone let him speak for my country as a whole.

Thats it, I am moving to Canada! Free healtcare and more hockey than you can poke a stick at here I come!
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Feb 20, 2002 4:09 pm

How we treat criminals in this country when they are not US citizens DOES matter. If it didn't, then we wouldn't be any better than any of the countries whose policy it is to shoot first and ask questions later, now would we? We profess to a lot of ideals, why is it that walking the walk is so difficult for us? Humane and just treatment for all, not just the ones we feel merit it at that particular moment.
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Postby Ilshadrial » Wed Feb 20, 2002 4:14 pm

Terrorist have no rights.

Knell them down and place a bullet in their head.

Solution solved Image
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Postby Sarvis » Wed Feb 20, 2002 4:19 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ilshadrial:
<B>Terrorist have no rights.

Knell them down and place a bullet in their head.

Solution solved Image
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


We're not talking about terrorists though. We are talking about people who just happened to be of Arabian descent that were arrested when the attacks happen.

Fildur:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Originally posted by Nida:

I am glad that we see on a level after all; there were a few points in your original post that were open to broad interpretation and I regret that I interpreted them incorrectly. My apologies.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Note that in this case the Author (Abue) didn't communicate her message well enough for the Reader (Nida) to interpretet it properly.



------------------
Every problem in the universe can be solved by finding the right long-haired prettyboy and beating the crap out of him.
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Postby Tanras » Wed Feb 20, 2002 5:03 pm

Hey Nida,

In debates, the only thing that really pisses me off is when I feel that people fabricate a lot of evidence to support their points. Congrats on that, I think you succeeded. Most people in this thread are posting opinion, please don't spout exact numbers without some difinitive, unbiased support.
I support our post 9/11 actions 100%. You say we had no evidence that Al Queda even did the deeds. . .we had enough evidence for the UN, the UK, France, Spain, and Canada to agree that they did it in closed door meetings. Just because some evidence is too tender to be let out into the public, you should not assume it doesn't exist.
Reading my posts, it seems to me that you have a strong political agenda, and it doesn't really matter what facts are presented, you will find a way to see it your way.
As far as Israel goes, before all the scuicide bombs and the fighting in Israel, I supported a Palastinean state more than most in this country. . .now. . .no way in hell. Arafat has ZERO power. If he does, he is not using it, which makes him an enemy. If you assume that he truly does not have the power to stop these people, there is NO REASON we should negotiate with him.
Until he proves that he can stop people from blowing themselves up, what does he have to offer? Nothing. Many Palastineans, in my opinion, do not want peace, they want the destruction of Israel. It is a shame that peaceful ones get grouped with them, but that is the reality of life.
So, I am a stronger supported of Israel than I have ever been and I can honestly say that won't change until someone who has the power to stop the bombings steps up to the table. Arafat is not that man so he needs to go away.

Tanras
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Postby cherzra » Wed Feb 20, 2002 7:13 pm

Would you have said the same about the native American indians, who fought the white settlers who came to occupy their lands? That their chiefs had zero power, and that they were terrorists because they fought back? That same land you now live in, and claim as your own? If so, then the Palestinians are indeed scum. They live their lives in squalor, occupied, without rights. May the same happen to you someday, and we'll see how you condemn their actions.
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Postby Ilshadrial » Wed Feb 20, 2002 7:28 pm

Nevermind, heh, I don't care about palenstine issues. Thanks Jegzed, I misread Cherza post Image

[This message has been edited by Ilshadrial (edited 02-20-2002).]
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Postby Jegzed » Wed Feb 20, 2002 7:32 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ilshadrial:
<B>Cherza can you please explain your comparison of a native american to a terrorist of bin-laden?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think he was comparing native americans with palestinians.
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Postby Zrax » Wed Feb 20, 2002 7:50 pm

Those white settlers were Europeans, as an American I cant explain their terrible actions. Haha I guess Euro's only like to claim people when they are inventing telephones, or assembly lines, etc.
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Postby Tanras » Wed Feb 20, 2002 8:17 pm

Cherz,

I do think that Palestineans should have a homeland, BUT I do not think they should get it until they stop terrorist actions. It is that simple as far as I am concerned. Hell. . .they almost had a homeland until they started bombing again. Now it is going to take 5 years to get back to where we were 1 year ago.

I support Israel 100% in their military campaign so long as terrorist actions are being conducted against them. Stop the terrorism, and my support will change. It is as simple as that.
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Postby Gakka » Wed Feb 20, 2002 8:48 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ilshadrial:
<B>I am sorry, but burning the American Flag has a very nasty affect on those Americans seeing it done. American's know that FREEDOM was never given to us, we fought for it. (Best part was when some Afgan Taliban guy was buring our flag and he caught on fire, i nearly jumped out of my chair with joy as he suffered!)

I do not understand why if you saw a Danish flag being burned in disgrace would cause no sort of emotion reaction from you.

Please explain...I am interested.

[This message has been edited by Ilshadrial (edited 02-19-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


You say you are well educated, so I'll just give some books.

read in that order:
-Getting to yes (Roger Fisher/William Ury)
-The Tao of Pooh (Benjamin Hoff)
These two first are very easy to read. And
gives you all arguments for listing to behind the person instead of beeing offended.

Then read you could read (but its not as easy):
-Thus spoke Zarathustra (Nietzsche)
And take special note to the section where he talks about going from Child to Camel to Lion to Child.
<hr>
Seeing flagburning and just pity the ones that burn your flag should be fairly simple then, mabye, because honestly then I have never seen muslims in the slum and rubble of palestine burn a danish flag. (It would just be plain stupid)
<hr>
The bad thing is that if you keep reading philosophy then you suddenly become a humanist and idealist that don't jump off a chair with joy as a 'declared enemy' suffers. See, that is where I pity you, blind relic-maker.

/Disoputlip.
You'll be the lion, then I'll be the child.
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Postby Shaylot » Wed Feb 20, 2002 8:57 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tanras:
<B>Cherz,

I do think that Palestineans should have a homeland, BUT I do not think they should get it until they stop terrorist actions. It is that simple as far as I am concerned. Hell. . .they almost had a homeland until they started bombing again. Now it is going to take 5 years to get back to where we were 1 year ago.

I support Israel 100% in their military campaign so long as terrorist actions are being conducted against them. Stop the terrorism, and my support will change. It is as simple as that.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Jews should never have been given the land they have now, the six day war proves that.
They should have been given landmass in either US or Soviet.

If Norway had gotten the same treatment. (A lot of people beeing thrown in with support from the biggest producer of firearms) Then norwegians would try with sabotage as well, just like we did in WW2.
----
I don't understand why palistinian news makes so many martyrs. Nor do I understand the CNN's coverage though.
-----
But simply saying that palistinians shouldn't have a homeland because some people sat round a table fifty years ago is a bit ..insert offence here.. to say.

/Shaylot
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Postby Ilshadrial » Wed Feb 20, 2002 9:13 pm

I have a book for you to read:

"You Can Be Happy No Matter What" (Five Principles for Keeping Life in Perspective)
By: Dr. Wayne Dyer

This is more of a REALIST approach, you learn to accept others for who they are, and learn to identify your own thoughts and feelings, and moods while not over analyzing other people reactions to your own thinking.

I can see where an idealist would feel pity for the one is burning the flag, but the matter of fact he is disgracing your country by doing so. So the realist reaction is different from the philospher.

Both acceptable, and both understandable.
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Postby Malacar » Wed Feb 20, 2002 9:28 pm

If you don't like Bush, you don't have to, but don't publicly insult him.

I fully agree with what he's doing. If we didn't do it, we'd look like pushovers.

And look at the situation. We know it is the Al Qaeda that perpetrated these acts. We've suffered threats from other radical muslim groups. I'm sorry, I don't have their names.

Of COURSE high suspicion will be on a people that have attacked us. When has it not gone this way in the world? And don't tell me one country is better than another when it comes down to this. If it was a mixed group of nationalities, cirumstances would be different. But it isn't. And until then, with the way terrorism goes, everyone of said nationality that is slightly suspicious will be questioned. I am in full agreement of this also. Even if this was my nationality(Italian), I would be behind this. If you have nothing to hide, nothing will happen to you, so what's the big problem?

If you can't see that, then you're blind.

If you don't like our policies, and are American, vote. If you don't vote, get the hell out of this country then, or shut the hell up. If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

I didn't vote for Bush. But I'll be damned if I don't stand behind the leader of my country in at least SOME respects. I will be further damned if I would insult the leader of it. Whether you like it or not, he's your, and my, president. You don't have to like it, but you don't need to insult him either. Disagree with his policies and politics all you want. I don't care. But refrain from the insults.
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Postby Rausrh » Wed Feb 20, 2002 10:43 pm

Malacar,
This isn't aimed at a personal attack, just an attack on your reasoning:

Assumption: Malacar is a middle class, white male. (Even if you're not, just play along)

Fact: The majority of pedophiles are white, middle class males.

Given the fact that Malacar fits the profile of a pedophile, I have informed the police(no not really) and he will be taken into custody. They will toss his house looking for anything that might be even remotely close to child pornography. That cute picture of you little cousin at the beach, who knows what you were thinking when you took that. Your computer get to go downtown too. Hope there wasn't any pictures of women even close to under age.

Now Macalar, don't be upset at this little intrusion, If you have nothing to hide, nothing will happen to you, so what's the big problem?

That is why my eyes are wide open, and I have not turned a blind eye to the injustice done the my country in the name of 'National Security'


------------------
Rausrh licks you.
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Postby Malacar » Wed Feb 20, 2002 10:48 pm

Oh, I am not saying it is right or wrong.

I am just saying it is assumed it will happen anytime, anywhere.

And your analogy, though similar, is not similar enough to really convince a world population.

Pedophilia is a crime. A very disgusting and sick crime, but it's a crime.

Killing 3,000+ people in a single shot will garner a much bigger market share of attention.

I agree with the war, that was my statement. But you have to admit that if a group of peoples, no matter who they are, kill 3,000+ people, they will be under suspicion for a while, no?
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Postby Fezbozz » Thu Feb 21, 2002 1:24 am

I have been reading most of the posts on this topic since it started so I figure I will toss in my 2 cents worth.

I totally support what our country and her allies are doing and I hope they do go after the other countries who foster terrosism. I don't advocate violence I actually abhore it but we gave them every chance to turn the guy over to avoid any of this conflict from happening. Did they? No they wanted us to attack to lend credence to their holy war crap.

I don't delude myself into think G.W. Bush is a great president. I think any president in charge would have done exactly the same thing. Yes its about revenge but its also about whats right and wrong. If we stand by and let these kinds of people get away with doing these things they will keep on doing them. Each time they will get bolder andbolder and kill more and more people. Somtimes violence has to be fought with violence.

They go after us because we are the largest example of everything they dislike in the world. Attack a country like say Mexico doesn't have the same impact on there fantatical followers as does one against The United States. I have nothing against Muslims or any other religion in the world but look at history. Religion is not the source of all our problems as Kifle would say but she is partly correct. It is religious fanatisim that causes many many conflicts. I may be wrong but most religions do not preach hate,war or killing people just because they don't beleive the way you do. People to often twist religion to support acts of violence or out right war and that is not what religion is about.

I understand the point of views of the people from other countries saying how we are arrogant or stick our nose in where it doesn't belong. I think some of that is true. Do we deal in shady dealings. Sure. I know our countires motives are not always the best and usually we are looking after our best intrests first but most of the time we do whats right. Should we have stopped Iraq. Yes. Should we have stopped Melosivich. Yes. Should we protect countries from invasion that can't protect themselves. Yes.

I Know this may sound like a typical american but we have more impact in the world then most countries so everything we do is magnified. Only a few other countries have that much impact in world events the others being China and to a lesser extent England,Germany and Japan. Other countries are not less important by any means but what they do just has less impact in the world theater.

I feel we get involved in to much because no one else can. No offense to other countries but just say for example we let say France,Sweden or the Netherlands be the ones to stop a guy like Huissen from taking over the middle-east. Not so far fetched if you have read anything about what this guy wants. Could they do it? Doubtful. Yes we are powerful yes we do to much but I really think we want to help to much that it gets us in trouble. Many times if we had stood by things would have gotten worse and we would have gotten involved anyway kinda like WW2.

I know we will not be liked for a lot of the things we do and probably never will be but for now we are the ones other countries will turn to for help and we will give it because we care about the well being of the many free countries in this world much more then people give us credit for.

[This message has been edited by Fezbozz (edited 02-20-2002).]
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Postby Kifle » Thu Feb 21, 2002 1:58 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Malacar:
<B>If you don't like Bush, you don't have to, but don't publicly insult him.

I fully agree with what he's doing. If we didn't do it, we'd look like pushovers.

And look at the situation. We know it is the Al Qaeda that perpetrated these acts. We've suffered threats from other radical muslim groups. I'm sorry, I don't have their names.

Of COURSE high suspicion will be on a people that have attacked us. When has it not gone this way in the world? And don't tell me one country is better than another when it comes down to this. If it was a mixed group of nationalities, cirumstances would be different. But it isn't. And until then, with the way terrorism goes, everyone of said nationality that is slightly suspicious will be questioned. I am in full agreement of this also. Even if this was my nationality(Italian), I would be behind this. If you have nothing to hide, nothing will happen to you, so what's the big problem?

If you can't see that, then you're blind.

If you don't like our policies, and are American, vote. If you don't vote, get the hell out of this country then, or shut the hell up. If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

I didn't vote for Bush. But I'll be damned if I don't stand behind the leader of my country in at least SOME respects. I will be further damned if I would insult the leader of it. Whether you like it or not, he's your, and my, president. You don't have to like it, but you don't need to insult him either. Disagree with his policies and politics all you want. I don't care. But refrain from the insults.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am sorry Malacar, I didn't vote for Bush and never would have in a million years. And your reasoning of not bashing bush for the simple fact that he is our president?! What is that?! So if we had Mike Tyson in office and he wanted to bomb various countries for no specific reason (no relevence to 9/11) you would follow him and support his actions for the fact that he is president?! OMG, this is the sheepish point of veiw and patriotic idealism I strogly disagree with for many logical reasons. If this were the case, do away with impeechment, because they are our president and "we" (not our full pocketed electoral college members) elected him! That is soo intelligent...I am sorry malacar dont mix this with the game, I think you are a great guy, but as far as polotics I have to stand firmly against your ideas. Do away with that fucked electoral college and let the people vote. I voted, and I didnt vote for bush. And I still want to "get the fuck" out of America. We are such arrogant bastards, well I shouldn't say we, most of americans are arrogant, and I dont wanna be hear when we get another bomb shoved in our respective asses. Yeah, we do a lot for other nations, that is wonderful and I support it, but the problem with that is this: Why run up giagantic debts helping another country, when ours is falling apart from the inside out. We have starving people, homeless people, sick people...Bring us your sick my white arse, so we can what? put them on the streets and give them a better alley to live in?! A cardboard box with better insulation and foundation?! Stop following and supporting a government that cares only for their selfish agendas and stand up against the injustices.

Every country has its problems, yeah, but don't think ours are any less than others. We are a constantinople waiting to fall, just another roman empire facing destruction in the face of our own ignorance. See that and try to stop it before it happens, In 3 years I will be watching the distruction from up north....have your damn country I cant wait to get out...
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Postby Malacar » Thu Feb 21, 2002 4:30 am

Disagree all you want, but the simple fact is that he is the president.

Plain and simple. You can hedge words with me until you are blue in the face. He's the leader(figurehead) of this nation.

No my eyes aren't closed. Yes, I think everyone has the rights to disagree with a president or his politics. Yes, I agree that the people should be able to Impeach a president. Yes, I don't like the electoral college either. I think that is only due, it's our right as free-thinking peoples. But bashing him in public is childish.

You claim he is not smart. I give you that point. But when you call him a moron or some such on a public BBS, you are stooping to what you seem to observe is his position.

Simply put, he is a figurehead. I don't give a flying damn what you think of him. He's the president. He doesn't make all the decisions, despite what anyone may think. He gets handed his ideas.

I have no illusions about Bush. But he's the leader. Bad or good.

I never said you couldn't disagree. That's what the basis of this country is for.

And Kifle... If you don't want to live here, then don't, I won't miss you(well on the mud I would, but you'd probably still be there. :P ). You're a hypocrite if you hate this country yet live here, imo.

I am proud to be an American. Yes, there are definitely things about America I am not proud of, many of them in fact(read: a lot). Overall, though, I love this country.

Bash me all you want, claim my opinions are whatever you want to call them. That is why they are precious. They are MY opinions. And I am free to change them at any time.

I didn't take any of it personally, so no, it won't affect my game attitude towards you. It would be silly to let RL politics affect how you treat others in a game world.

In closing: Do I think America, overall, is better than the rest of the world?

Nope. In some aspects, certainly. Overall, no. I wouldn't put any country over another, until I knew them as intimately as mine. This only means I don't judge other countries. I have middle eastern friends. I don't think they are Al Qaeda. I don't condemn them. Since the bombing, I have done a little digging(not a lot, but enough) to understand -some- of the Afghanistan peoples' plight. I don't wish them any harm, and it pains me to see they suffer because cowards like the Al Qaeda and Bin Laden hide behind them, and poison them with very filtered media. Most of them hate us. Do I hold it against them? No. Because they don't have the opportunities most of us on here do.

Bash my country, though, and I will rebut. You don't like my country? Don't judge me on it.
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Postby Kifle » Thu Feb 21, 2002 7:00 am

What I said was not in any way hypocritical malacar...maybe if I were to have said, I hate this country and I want to live here...Yeah that would be hypocricy, but in all actuallity I said I don't like my country (well the way it is run) and I am going to leave as soon as I can. If I could leave right now I would, but I cant so I bitch Image...

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