America and the rest of the world

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
Ilshadrial
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Postby Ilshadrial » Thu Feb 21, 2002 12:40 pm

My god Kifle grow the hell up already. You think it is so great in other countries? Take your ass there already.

Don't bash your country, everything you said shows you are not a patriot... I wonder what your parents would think...

I think you must be one of those people who Take their freedom for granted.

Another Roman Empire? Give me a break.
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Postby Jegzed » Thu Feb 21, 2002 1:00 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ilshadrial:
My god Kifle grow the hell up already. You think it is so great in other countries? Take your ass there already. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course.. He wants to move to Sweden!
Which everybody knows is the greatest and most free country in the world!

How anyone could NOT want to live in the paradise known as Sweden is beyond me...



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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
Gort
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Postby Gort » Thu Feb 21, 2002 3:35 pm

Stop the World, I wanna get OFF!

That not being feasible, I have to live here. I believe it was Ben Franklin who once said, "Everything in moderation". I have come to appreciate the truth of this over the years. Too much drinking, not so good for you. Eating too much, not so good, exercising too much, not so good, too much sex, not so good. It applies to everything I have yet to encounter, even sleep.

Taking this to a global perspective, being a zealot is going out of the moderation theme. Being overly involved in other countries affairs, the same. Yes, we are more and more a global community, and sometimes helping out other countries is wanted/needed. However I would rather the US not be the prime mover in that realm.

Unfortunately, we set ourselves up for this with the Monroe Doctrine. About 150 years ago, when America was a lowly pseudo regional power, we came up with this to declare "hegemony", protectorate status over North America from Europe. Stating that no foreign power could use military force in our "hemisphere" without opposing the US.

Post WWII, they US became a World power, rather than a regional one, and the Monroe doctrine began to leak over. We began to become more and more the World's Police force. We also used it as an excuse to exercise foreign policy abroad to further our interests, often with colorful excuses.

My primary reason for leaving the military was one of philosophy. We were being trained as soldiers, but more and more being applied as police. Ever hear of Korea being a Police action rather than a War? If you want someone to act effectively as a Police officer, train them as such, if you want them to be a soldier, train them as such. When you ask one to do the others job, both sides are in danger of needless casualties.

I have less a problem of the US military being the World's Police force, than I do of them not being trained for it. If that is to be the case, the countries who ask for our service should pay for that service.

I believe the US needs to focus more on domestic policy, but not to create a welfare state. We need to encourage people to work, to encourage them to improve themselves by putting time limits on things like welfare. Basic education in this country is free, so there is no excuse for people not being able to get a High School diploma or GED.

Sorry for the continued rant, this topic does that to me.

Toplack
Galkar
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Postby Galkar » Thu Feb 21, 2002 3:39 pm

Every country has weaknesses. Every country has strengths.

Even so, AMERICA ROCKS! I say that because I grew up here. I love it here. It's my opinion. Note I said OPINION.

Nuff said.
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Postby Grintor » Thu Feb 21, 2002 4:02 pm

hey guys.

dont compare the annihilation of the american indian to what's going on today. different times, different governments, different world views.


the number of muslims being detaines is but a small fraction of the over 2.5 million muslims living and practicing in the united states. the 2.5 million number is of course being debated by all non muslim groups because, after all, organized religion is the root of all evil and they MUST continually fight each other over stupid shit like this until their side is the only side left.


as einstein once said there are only two infinite things, the universe and human stupidity - and i'm not even SURE about the universe....
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Postby Rausrh » Thu Feb 21, 2002 4:06 pm

In regard to Malacar's post:

posted 02-20-2002 05:48 PM:
"Oh, I am not saying it is right or wrong."

posted 02-20-2002 04:28 PM:
"I am in full agreement of this also. Even if this was my nationality(Italian), I would be behind this."

I am assuming here you are talking about the detaining of Arab/Muslim people on the premise of expired visas, being denied legal representation, consultation with their lawyers, or even the right to attend their own trials.(Who know what is going on at these 'trials', even members of the House Judicial Committee have been denied entry.)

posted 02-20-2002 04:28 PM:
"If it was a mixed group of nationalities, circumstances would be different. But it isn't. And until then, with the way terrorism goes, everyone of said nationality that is slightly suspicious will be questioned."

I assume here that you are talking of the terrorist attack on 9/11. Based on that assumption I would like to point out to you that the hijackers were not comprised of one nationality. I believe that 14 of the 19 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.

The main problem I have with you arguments is that you seem to be in favor or placing people under suspicion based on their race or religious beliefs. I do not have a problem with jailing and deporting people who are in this country with expired visas.
Where are all the Hispanic 'detainees'? Why aren't they rounding up all those Asians? Africans? Simply because they're not Arabs. The practice, however valid, is not being applied fairly or in the interest of 'justice'.


Malacar, do you think the police should stop and question all black men driving expensive cars? After all I'm sure some of them stole it, and if the rest are inconvenience, well that's the price we pay to feel safe at night, right?




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Zrax
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Postby Zrax » Thu Feb 21, 2002 4:11 pm

Stealing a car isn't a potential risk to thousands of lives.
Kifle
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Postby Kifle » Thu Feb 21, 2002 4:33 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ilshadrial:
<B>My god Kifle grow the hell up already. You think it is so great in other countries? Take your ass there already.

Don't bash your country, everything you said shows you are not a patriot... I wonder what your parents would think...

I think you must be one of those people who Take their freedom for granted.

Another Roman Empire? Give me a break.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dont even know how to respond to this ilshad, I have seen the light...pfft my white ass! Grow up?! I have come to find that in my years most of the people that say grow up need to (sorry for contradicting myself in this sentance) grow up.

Yes for me I think I could live a lot better in other countries. This government does not suit my intelligence level at all (setting myself up for a flame). I am not a sheep and never intend to be one. I think Canada's views on some things are a lot better laid out for the PEOPLE's interest rather than the government's. And if you need an example of how our beloved government likes to rape its people...NAFTA! Okie Zenith, GM, etc...Gimmie your money and I will pass this hear agreement so you can move your factories to mexico and make more profit! That is just one of the many ways America has "done us a favor".

OMG you finally see! No, I am not a patriot and I haven't been since I took my first glance at a history book and found out where the hell we got this land from. And who gives a damn what my parents think about my political views?! They are kinda proud that I am able to form my own opinions and act as an idividual. Unlike some "follow-the-crowd, blind, someday-drowing-in-thier-own-pools-of-complacency" patriotic sheep that I hear spewing forth ignorance.

Quote: "I think you must be one of those people who Take their freedom for granted."

Yeah, just like the first settlers of the Americas did with England huh?! Guess they should have sit idley by and bathed in thier freedom too huh?! Or what about Thialand...guess they worked backwords now that they have thier own semi-democracy...guess they were better off as a communist country? (I dont wanna hear it nikelon)...Back in the days of early Americas you would have been hanged by your neighbors for being a twit..nowdays we aren't so brutal, lucky you.


Quote: "Another Roman Empire? Give me a break."

Yes, as of now we are the strongest and probably the only world power left...ie. Roman empire...Unfortunately you must have missed umm...well the entire semester of world civ. in your highschool days (maybe you havent gotten that far yet) or you never took the time to read any books, but yes it is the way things work in the world...you are on top for a while, short or not, and eventually that power will collapse and somebody else will control. That is of coarse just theory, but then again so are newtons laws of motion and they seem to have worked thus far (with major add ons as time has gone by).

So, in closeing, I would like to say...Read, think of your post before you post it, and, above all else, wake up! We are not going to last forever...

Kifle

Ps. If you would read closely to my previous post you would have found it very ignorant to say, "You think it is so great in other countries? Take your ass there already." For the simple fact that I had already stated that it would be some time before I was able to, and if I had a choice I would have already! Wear glasses!
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Postby fildur » Thu Feb 21, 2002 4:56 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jegzed:
<B> Of course.. He wants to move to Sweden!
Which everybody knows is the greatest and most free country in the world!

How anyone could NOT want to live in the paradise known as Sweden is beyond me...
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

bah, sverige e en hora.

i wont translate that cuz its just foul language, but in sweden foul language is ok.../j
Ilshadrial
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Postby Ilshadrial » Thu Feb 21, 2002 5:40 pm

Poor child your flames mean nothing...

You need to review your Roman History, I don't think you learned as much detail in high school about it as you think.

I sit here asking myself why you can't move to another country already, becasue your still a teenager? Not well educated? Have no job-market skills? what! please tell!

Heh your post was very funny to say the least.

Hopefully when you move to another country you will not be a target since you ARE an American. Wouldn't that be ironic, targeted as an American for a country you don't even love.
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Feb 21, 2002 5:59 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ilshadrial:
<B>Poor child your flames mean nothing...

I sit here asking myself why you can't move to another country already, becasue your still a teenager? Not well educated? Have no job-market skills? what! please tell!

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Ilshad, that's going too far. You ask her not to flame, then you sink to the level of being extremely insulting and degrading. I have an idea of why Kifle can't pick up and move, and believe it or not, there are other reasons that would keep somebody here which don't have anything to do with them being stupid or worthless. What happened to intelligent debate?
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Postby Kallinar » Thu Feb 21, 2002 6:20 pm

Methinks the intelligence from this debate pretty much flew out the window when all the Anti-Americanism started up.
That subject seems to be a sore spot for the ill educated or sigleminded of America.
Flame my country? I'll flame you back with barely coherent blurbed of patroitism and arrogance!!!!

Kallinar
Shame on you
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Postby Zagaz » Thu Feb 21, 2002 7:10 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ilshadrial:
<B>I am sorry, but burning the American Flag has a very nasty affect on those Americans seeing it done. American's know that FREEDOM was never given to us, we fought for it. (Best part was when some Afgan Taliban guy was buring our flag and he caught on fire, i nearly jumped out of my chair with joy as he suffered!)

I do not understand why if you saw a Danish flag being burned in disgrace would cause no sort of emotion reaction from you.

Please explain...I am interested.

[This message has been edited by Ilshadrial (edited 02-19-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I do not know how it is done in the USA but when a flag has ended it's service, the proper ceremonial way to dispose of it in Canada is to actually burn it, not like throw it in a bon fire, there is a particulatr way, not sure what it is, but fire does the trick. However, if soemone were to be burning a Canadian flag in front of me...I admit I would get pretty pissed off. I do hope we move towards a more world type government someday, but I find Canadians are severely lacking in a back bone when it comes to defending our counry, and we take pride in all the wrong things. We are proud of the feckin rockies and geographical formations...why? Were we as Canadians responsible for these? No, it is nice to have beautiful geography and rich natural resources, but we cannot take credit for them. Pride in the settlers, the first frenchmen, the history of our rather young nation however would be a good thing.

Another thing to be proud of as a Canadian, we kicked some ass in the war of 1812...we will NEVER be able to do it again, but we are responsible for the white house being called the white house.....might have previousy mentioned this or someone might have....been up for 31 hours, work getting boring....

All you need is love
Malacar
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Postby Malacar » Thu Feb 21, 2002 7:52 pm

Zrax hit it right on the head.

And I never said 'only Afghani people'.

The Middle East is under suspicion. Please read my post thoroughly before responding. I appreciate the fact that you took time to respond courteously and intelligently, but I think you're reading between the lines on what you want to see and hear, not what I said. Image
Kifle
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Postby Kifle » Thu Feb 21, 2002 8:12 pm

1. No I am not a teenager...close but no cigar in your ass...
2. I am pregnant and have to live in my home...yes I own my own house, for 3 more years before I can come out ahead in the deal.
3. I am a student of physics. have the job market skills: I can weld with a MIG, arc, and a bit of the oxytorch. I could very well relearn how to program in visual basic 5.0, also relearn c++ and maybe even visual c++, I can build and maintain a computer.
4. as for well educated...I am pretty sure I own, and have read, more books that you have seen...no not the ones you read with the colorful pictures in them, but real books. I have taken many years of college, unfortunately have switched my major around...I have a full ride scholorship payed for by the wonderful state of indiana *cough* because of extremely high test scores...I have a modest 156 iq...I think that should qualify as educated, yes?
5. Regardless of what the specific history of the Roman empire is, it still doesn't change the fact that they were the super power of the time and they eventually fell because of various reasons...One was arrogance.

Yes, it was funny to say the least and I am glad you can find humor when you are being poked fun at...to say more, it was intelligent, insightful, and damn true Image

Kifle
Gort
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Postby Gort » Thu Feb 21, 2002 8:14 pm

Proper disposal of an unservicable US flag.

Having served in the US military for 11 years, grown up with depression era parents from the old south, and being an ettiquette conscious individual, I did some research to make sure I was up to date on the proper procedure.

The VFW, and American Legion have specific rituals for disposing of an unservicable flag. It is more or less the same procedure but the AL has much more ritual. Basically, it is folded in the traditional manner, (the AL dips it in Kerosine, the VFW just makes sure they have a good hot fire), it is then placed in the fire in a solemn manner, typically a salute, or hand is placed over the heart. You may then say the pledge of alligence, or reflect solemnly upon what the flag stands for. Have equal sized flag to replace the disposed of one in cases of display flag.

Toplack
Zrax
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Postby Zrax » Thu Feb 21, 2002 8:20 pm

Kifle,

Your ideas are not new. Anyone who has taken an intro to Poly Sci class can learn 20 reasons to hate their country. A person with a low self esteem feels the need to parade their credentials around, like someone who got knocked up and left, cant decide what they want to do so dwell in medicroty never deciding on anything and blaming everyone but themselves for it and refusing to deal with life as it comes at them.

P.S. Visual Basic 5.0 is about as dated as your ideas.

God I hate hippies.
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Postby Cerlayne » Thu Feb 21, 2002 8:36 pm

okies.. in regards to kifle.. first one person posts this...

I sit here asking myself why you can't move to another country already, becasue your still a teenager? Not well educated? Have no job-market skills? what! please tell!
then in a following post kifle post info about herself to show that 1) she is not a teenager 2) is educated.. at least by most peoples standards... and 3) has job skills... and of course she also explains why she can't move atm... part of that being her pregnancy .... ( just as a note here.. no one here better have the balls to tell me that pregnancy is NOT a possible reason to have to remain where you are living... having been put on bedrest for all 4 of my pregnancies and being unable to leave the house)... now back to what i was saying... now after kifle does exactly what was asked of her.. we then have a different person (thank gawd) post this...

A person with a low self esteem feels the need to parade their credentials around, like someone who got knocked up and left, cant decide what they want to do so dwell in medicroty never deciding on anything and blaming everyone but themselves for it and refusing to deal with life as it comes at them.

which does nothing but slam kifle for posting what she was asked to give info about...

MY GAWD... the amount of personal flaming is at an all time high on this bbs... i have sympathy for the poor Gods who have to sift through this dribble and crap so that they might come across an idea that makes them go 'oh wow!!'

Surly
Ilshadrial
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Postby Ilshadrial » Thu Feb 21, 2002 8:39 pm

HEhe! Kifle you are mess.

Just for your info, I had already completed my undergraduate degree, MBA degree, and managed to publish, all by the age of 23. This is while MUDDING full-time, mahahaha.

Even got my job through mudding...like some others...

Even though now, since I have to work, it seems to take up to much of my time, dammit!





[This message has been edited by Ilshadrial (edited 02-21-2002).]
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Postby cherzra » Thu Feb 21, 2002 9:12 pm

Booker T vs George B for the right to be president.
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Feb 21, 2002 9:19 pm

This is just pathetic.

And Zrax, I expected better than something like that from you. If I got knocked up and left, I'd have a lot more reason for packing my stuff and getting the hell out of Dodge than if I were actually putting the effort into maintaining a family household where my significant other might not wish to move, or where I might have aging parents to consider, or numerous other responsibilities that might keep me rooted in one place, instead of just running away because that's what *I* wanted to do.

That's it people, give us the good old world-wide well-known American beliefs... that just because somebody else doesn't share our viewpoints, they must obviously be stupid. You're making us look soooooo cultured, educated, accepting, open-minded, gracious, generous, caring.... NOT! I think the word I was looking for was really "bigoted."
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Postby Ilshadrial » Thu Feb 21, 2002 9:19 pm

Here is some interesting news, since some of you that posted here are from some of these countries:

Canada just joined the JSF Program.

Looks like Italy, Normway, Denmark, and Turkey are considering joining the USA in its JSF program. At least your governements don't think the USA governement is all bad, at least not the military power the company I work for can provide.

The Netherlands is looking to replace their 137 F-16(s) (MADE IN THE USA) starting in 2010.

Just thought it was interesting...
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Postby Gakka » Thu Feb 21, 2002 9:24 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ilshadrial:
<B>My god Kifle grow the hell up already. You think it is so great in other countries? Take your ass there already.

Don't bash your country, everything you said shows you are not a patriot... I wonder what your parents would think...

I think you must be one of those people who Take their freedom for granted.

Another Roman Empire? Give me a break.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Image

/Disoputlip

Sorry, just made a reply so you can reread yourself
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Postby Rausrh » Thu Feb 21, 2002 9:31 pm

Zrax,
Correct me if I am wrong here. Are you saying that because there is only a car at stake, the abuse of black men is not justified? Are you also saying because of the 3,000(ish) lives that were lost, and the possibility of more lives being lost, the detention of Arab people is justified?

It seems to me that you are willing to roll over and cough up your freedoms because 3,000(ish) people have died. I guess I value my freedom a little higher than you. At current value it is worth 1,754,664 lives and counting. (http://www.cwc.lsu.edu/cwc/other/stats/warcost.htm) Oh, I guess I forgot, it's not your freedoms you are tossing away, it's just those of that funny foreign looking guy over there. Of course, tomorrow those may be my freedoms you so causally disregard. I ask you not to.

Malacar,
I know you never said "only Afghani people". I never claimed you did. You did however say:

"If it was a mixed group of nationalities, circumstances would be different. But it isn't. And until then, with the way terrorism goes, everyone of said nationality that is slightly suspicious will be questioned."

This clearly states you are talking of one nationality being under suspicion. Now less than a day later the entire "Middle East is under suspicion."?

This nit-picking is besides the point. I believe that our law enforcement and judicial system has more than enough power and resources to identify and prosecute terrorists in this country without the need to stoop to suspending civil liberties and secret trials. It was wrong when McCarthy tried to root out Communists in Hollywood, it was wrong to round up Americans of Japanese descent during the world war, and it is wrong to detain people of Arab descent without due process.
I fully support hunting down terrorists who are hiding in our country. I believe this can and must be done without suspending rights, or going to loop holes to get around the judicial system.



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Postby cherzra » Thu Feb 21, 2002 9:32 pm

Buying a country's produce doens't automatically mean that you have to agree with its culture, foreign policy or its citizens' (overly) patriotic views. As long as it isn't roundabout hostile to our government, just different, we won't really care. But that doesn't mean we can't think you are a bit too self-indulgent at times.

Anyway, if it were up to me we would not have bought them, we would not have bought the eurofighter or the rafale either. The whole thing is an absolutely unbelievable waste of money and there are a million better things to spend it on, such as health care for example.

It's a fucking downright shame that people have to wait anywhere from a year to five years on an operation because there is 'no money' and then 'our' politicians spend my god damn tax money on shit like that. They should be very deeply ashamed of themselves.
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Postby Zrax » Thu Feb 21, 2002 9:42 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ashiwi:
<B>This is just pathetic.

And Zrax, I expected better than something like that from you. If I got knocked up and left, I'd have a lot more reason for packing my stuff and getting the hell out of Dodge than if I were actually putting the effort into maintaining a family household where my significant other might not wish to move, or where I might have aging parents to consider, or numerous other responsibilities that might keep me rooted in one place, instead of just running away because that's what *I* wanted to do.

That's it people, give us the good old world-wide well-known American beliefs... that just because somebody else doesn't share our viewpoints, they must obviously be stupid. You're making us look soooooo cultured, educated, accepting, open-minded, gracious, generous, caring.... NOT! I think the word I was looking for was really "bigoted."</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Kifle's position is I hate the capitalist bastards in America and would leave now but i won't get the proper return on investment on my 30 year housing loan.

Its always the people who reap the biggest benefits and contribute the least that have a problem with the United States, I will never understand this.

The knocked up comment may have been over the top, but she did offer the information on that one, and since there are no laws regarding pregnant women leaving the country I made my own relevance for them. If it was to say there are shitty and irresponsable males in the United States, I think you will find that anywhere, but that would be a nice fun topic in itself.

I am noticing a trend where everyone who muds has an iq over 150 and scores near perfect on all standardized tests. Either we are all brilliant or we are all full of shit.
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Postby Corth » Thu Feb 21, 2002 9:47 pm

Well, thats what happens in countries with socialized health care.. you sit aorund waiting for your surgery. (hums the tune to Blame Canada!)

Corth
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Postby Blung » Thu Feb 21, 2002 9:48 pm

Hey Ilshadrial, why don't you chill out a little? You loves the U.S. Government so much that it doesn't matter that they do, you still think it right. Its like the KKK believe in White Supremacy. So be it. As far as most arguments goes, the Pros-American/Patroitism, are proud to be American and doesn't give a shit what the others think. So what? Your thinking based on what you read, see and hear in the U.S. Most of you never really experience 1st hand to live under another form of government / country. So basicly when you compare America to the rest of the world. It's the same as comparing Apples and Oranges.

Now let this topic die in peace before it get more personal.

Blung take no prisoner
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Postby Jegzed » Thu Feb 21, 2002 9:50 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ilshadrial:
<B>Looks like Italy, Normway, Denmark, and Turkey are considering joining the USA in its JSF program. At least your governements don't think the USA governement is all bad, at least not the military power the company I work for can provide.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Real countries make their own fighter-jets.

And allies are only for wusses.
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Postby cherzra » Thu Feb 21, 2002 10:02 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>Well, thats what happens in countries with socialized health care.. you sit aorund waiting for your surgery. (hums the tune to Blame Canada!)

Corth</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, it's what happens when your country goes from 10 million to 16 million in just 50 years time, and hordes of 'asylum seekers' (read: money seekers) drain the great social system your forefathers gave their blood, sweat and tears to create. When over time an entire asylum industry has grown that is now trying to keep itself in place, even though it is long since apparent that 99% of these people are nothing but leeches and criminals attracted to our lax laws and good social system.
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Feb 21, 2002 10:13 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zrax:
<B>
I am noticing a trend where everyone who muds has an iq over 150 and scores near perfect on all standardized tests. Either we are all brilliant or we are all full of shit.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Both? The average mudder is more intelligent IQ-wise than the average person, just a hell of a lot dumber when it comes to common sense. And the egos... those are planet eaters.
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Postby Corth » Thu Feb 21, 2002 10:31 pm

Cherzra,

Correct me if im wrong. Your upset because your 'great' social system is being abused by people who do not contribute to society. And yet, your social(ist) system is structured so that everyone benefits, regardless of their contribution to society.

A) If its such a great system, why is it so easily abused?

B) Why not abuse it? Why should i bother getting a job where 80% or more of my income is taxed to pay for these extensive programs, when on the other hand I can just stay home and not work, and still benefit from them? Free health care.. free food, free everything.

Who is the sucker here Cherzra, the guy who is living off of your hard work, or you, the person working hard to support him?

Corth
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Postby cherzra » Thu Feb 21, 2002 10:49 pm

It is a great system as long as you can count on people being disciplined and having common decency, not abusing it. Like getting off your lazy ass and working instead of living off welfare. Unfortunately our government seems to like it just the way it is, and people in it who don't even bother to find a job or even respond to the government's invitations for openings are patted on the head instead of punished. Same with the justice system, criminals are nurtured while common law-abiding people are punished. Did you know you can kill someone as a drunk driver, and you will be out of jail two days later? And that premeditated murder has a sentence of four years? That a dozen immigrant teenagers can systematically rape and intimidate two girls over the course of six months, and be let off with a pat on the head? And I have a ton more of those examples which I read in the newspaper daily. Kill 'em all I say, I don't need or want filth like that in my country. This is a problem of the past ten years, it was non-existant before, everyone just obeyed the rules and there were no problems. Now, you should see Amsterdam and other big cities. 50% foreigners, drugs everywhere, you can't walk across the street safely.

It all works fine until the strain becomes too strong. At no point did I disagree with you that these people shouldn't be handled tougher, but the system was fine until the last years. Bless our leftist government who allow everything, squander our tax money giving it away to others like they are Santa Claus and wasting it on useless projects, practically beg every foreigner to come and live with us, guaranteeing life-long welfare, a government paid house and a ton more, and then relocating their 15 member family a year later under the 'family unification' law. Of course, they all have families too, and the shit keeps repeating.

Cherzra, pissed, and knowing who he's voting on the coming elections.
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Postby Sarvis » Thu Feb 21, 2002 11:05 pm

"t is a great system as long as you can count on people being disciplined and having common decency, not abusing it."

ROFL!!!! people disciplined and having common decency? ROFL! That's the best joke I've heard in a long time... Image



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Every problem in the universe can be solved by finding the right long-haired prettyboy and beating the crap out of him.
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Postby Corth » Fri Feb 22, 2002 12:13 am

Cherzra,

My first impulse was to respond to your message with something along the lines of: "All of these problems.. and yet you criticize the U.S. for not adopting these socialist policies?!". But then I read your message again and something struck me as being very peculiar and I'd rather address that.

People who immigrate to the U.S. are among the hardest workers we have. Many of them have horrible jobs, and live in deplorable housing conditions. So why do they keep coming here? Well, perhaps all the businesses owned by immigrants in my hometown of New York City is the answer. In my country, anyone that works hard has the opportunity to make a good life for himself. So what if we dont have the same social services? Or maybe it works because we dont have the same social services. Why would anyone bother to work hard if they got everything handed to them?

To tell you the truth, I dont believe you when you say that the system worked great until people started immigrating. Are native dutch people superior to everyone else? With higher moral standards and the like? Less willing to take advantage of the system than some ragged immigrant? I think not. What you have is a system that rewards corruption, not a corrupt group of people inundating the system. And from what you wrote, I think you know this.

Corth

[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 02-21-2002).]
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Postby Malacar » Fri Feb 22, 2002 12:14 am

Eh, Rausrh, I'm not articulated enough to make you understand my point apparently, and I don't feel like being nitpicked to death, so I bow out of this one.

I think my point was made, and I think you are simply trying to split hairs.
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Postby Kifle » Fri Feb 22, 2002 12:40 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zrax:
<B>
Kifle's position is I hate the capitalist bastards in America and would leave now but i won't get the proper return on investment on my 30 year housing loan.

Its always the people who reap the biggest benefits and contribute the least that have a problem with the United States, I will never understand this.

The knocked up comment may have been over the top, but she did offer the information on that one, and since there are no laws regarding pregnant women leaving the country I made my own relevance for them. If it was to say there are shitty and irresponsable males in the United States, I think you will find that anywhere, but that would be a nice fun topic in itself.

I am noticing a trend where everyone who muds has an iq over 150 and scores near perfect on all standardized tests. Either we are all brilliant or we are all full of shit.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is sad that you feel you are safe to assume that I do not contribute in any way to this country or society...in 2 years or so I will be a teacher...something we need a lot more of...and of physics of all things (more than likely will be teaching math also.) Yeah, I hate capitalism. Who doesn't, unless you are in the upper 1% that is actually benefiting.

As far as my "knocked up" comment ( I just love how you men like to degrade women and belittle thier roles in birthing children, for once I would just loooove to see a man go through half of what we women do, sorry about the cliche) I am a bit over 8months...I cant do much, my husband works 10hrs a day, I take care of 2 other children while going to school. when I am not pregnant I am working full/part time and going to school full time...I think that is one huge load for a 21 yr old! And I am fine for being able to afford a house at 21...

Lastly, you probably do notice a trend because there obviously is one...just look at who we have playing this mud...people that take the time out of their day to bitch and moan about politics and other important/controversial issues...Computer programers,physicists,lawyers, etc...Reading these posts, even though you dont have to agree with them, you can obviously see a lot of intelligence on most of our parts. Especially that one written by mplor? (i think it was).

It is a lot harder than you think to just up and apply for citizenship in another country, and after that pay import taxs and a bunch of other crap. Being prepared to move into another country where the monetary system is a bit worse than your current is very intelligent and should not be something just to jump into blindly. I saw how much it cost my friend from Canada to move here (what do you know...he went back 2 yrs later) and I decided I should start saving...As far as the costs of having a baby, taking care of a baby, and taking care of 2 other children in the process...well, that is a huge chunck of change you and your complacent MBA holder at 23 has to fork out...
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Postby Corth » Fri Feb 22, 2002 12:49 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kifle:
Yeah, I hate capitalism. Who doesn't, unless you are in the upper 1% that is actually benefiting.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So I assume that your not in the top 1%. Perhaps you would enjoy life more in a non-capalist country. The former Soviet Union? Or how about a fundamentalist country like Libya?

Corth
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Postby groguk » Fri Feb 22, 2002 1:12 am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kifle:
[B] Yeah, I hate capitalism. Who doesn't, unless you are in the upper 1% that is actually benefiting.

i am about as middle class as they come, and i think capitalism is just fine, it (generaly) rewards those who are willing to work
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Postby Kifle » Fri Feb 22, 2002 1:14 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zrax:
<B>Kifle,

Your ideas are not new. Anyone who has taken an intro to Poly Sci class can learn 20 reasons to hate their country. A person with a low self esteem feels the need to parade their credentials around, like someone who got knocked up and left, cant decide what they want to do so dwell in medicroty never deciding on anything and blaming everyone but themselves for it and refusing to deal with life as it comes at them.

P.S. Visual Basic 5.0 is about as dated as your ideas.

God I hate hippies.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are just a few things wrong with your well thought out comment there...

1. Did I ever say my ideas were new?? Who's on this thread really are...they state facts and point towards other's opinions to back up their own...(nice try at the flame) Most of the time they are loaded facts and statistics and others with opposing opinions kindly point that out within thier counter argument...

2. No, I didnt learn this in poly sci 101. I learned it way before even highschool. I think it is quite obvious how our nation is handing us our asses. Capitalizm is wrong and the few that support it are the ones getting rich off of it. Yeah, I might have different opinions if I was the one getting rich, but then again I would have a completely different personality if I were to be striving for such a lifestyle...if I wanted to be rich I would have stuck with prelaw. But, instead, I would rather help the future and become a teacher of a subject that is about as popular as geology, but I am making an attempt to maybe share my enjoyment and enthusiasm for such things to a younger generation so that they too might follow in my footseps..


1. I dont have low self esteem for the most part or I wouldn't be able to read most of these posts and have the courage to reply. Something anyone would have learned in psych 101.

2. I dont parade my credentials, I gave them when asked and attacked on...

Quote: "A person with a low self esteem feels the need to parade their credentials around, like someone who got knocked up and left, cant decide what they want to do so dwell in medicroty never deciding on anything and blaming everyone but themselves for it and refusing to deal with life as it comes at them."

3. I can't decide what I want to do?! well, thanks for opening my eyes! Guess I am in college for no aparent reason...have no aim, goals, or drive to do anything...it seems to me that you are describing the people such as ilshad that are just complacent with the way things are and will follow a sinking nation to the depths of hell for the sake of patriotism. Without people like me that are not afraid to stand up against the popular vote, you would not have your sacred country today...there would be little or no social or political betterment.

lastly, If I didn't deal with what life gave to me when it gave it to me, I would not be as far as I am today...there are many more things that happend between my first pregnancy and now that I am sure 90% of the population would not be able to recover from...along with having to deal with tragedy I had to deal with a child, then another child, and now a 3rd...I love my children and I dont know what I would do w/o them and I am glad I have made what decisions I have or else I would not be who I am today. I think given my life...if you really knew it you would not say such awful things.

thank you,

Kifle
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Postby Kifle » Fri Feb 22, 2002 1:23 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B> So I assume that your not in the top 1%. Perhaps you would enjoy life more in a non-capalist country. The former Soviet Union? Or how about a fundamentalist country like Libya?

Corth</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


No, dear, I would actually like to see a true democracy, or maybe even a semi democracy...and who is to say that we are not by majority also consumed by fundamentalists... and yes corth that was a safe assumption. I think a lot of coutries do fairly well in a non-capitalist society. I would like to live in a country that cares more about thier people I guess...*shrug*

kifle
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Postby Kuurg » Fri Feb 22, 2002 1:27 am

Ashiwi,

see me about the llama.



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·•Kuurg•·
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Postby Kuurg » Fri Feb 22, 2002 1:33 am

we're not a true democracy. we're a republic you guys! remember your pledge of allegiance? - '...and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands.'

We're not a true capitalist society. How many failing businesses, or businesses based on outdated models, are being supported by government.

Capitalism drives innovation. What we have does not.

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·•Kuurg•·

[This message has been edited by Kuurg (edited 02-21-2002).]
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Postby Kifle » Fri Feb 22, 2002 1:42 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ilshadrial:
<B>HEhe! Kifle you are mess.

Just for your info, I had already completed my undergraduate degree, MBA degree, and managed to publish, all by the age of 23. This is while MUDDING full-time, mahahaha.

Even got my job through mudding...like some others...

Even though now, since I have to work, it seems to take up to much of my time, dammit!



</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rofl, I give my credentials when asked...ilshad gives his to boast, and "I" am the one on trial here?! omg! talk about blindness in the 3rd degree! If I am supposedly the one with low self esteem for my comment in my defense, what would you say about this one zrax?! rofl, or is it that you dont flame ppl with the same views as you?! shit based on zrax's assumptions and supposed truths, ilshad would have commited suicide 2 years ago rofl!

kifle
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Postby Grintor » Fri Feb 22, 2002 2:38 am

wow, is it just me or is everyone here a pessimist?


the glass is half empty in all countries i guess.

me? i'm not even registered to vote and I'm 27. I dont *believe* in any form of organized religion, and my ideas are all my own. There's a ton of shit that I dont like about every country out there, but then i sit back and realize 'hey, they are run by human beings, and human beings are far from infallible'.


you guys need to lighten up. i'm proud to be an american, but i wish we had canada's health care. i'm proud that i can go from state to state and not be harassed at the border of each, but i dont like that fact that lobbying is legal.

we cant all have our cake and eat it too, and none of this will change in our lifetimes. i like the fact that, if i so choose to, i dont ever have to deal with any of this shit! i dont drink/smoke/do drugs, have never been given a ticket and my dad's a cop. oddly enough i've never had to deal with the law in any form except for jury duty (dad's a cop? see ya!).

my gripe from this 6 pages of utter BS is that none of you has had anything nice to say about your fellow mudder. that's pretty shitty.
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Postby Malacar » Fri Feb 22, 2002 2:39 am

I love Grintor. Image
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Postby Fezbozz » Fri Feb 22, 2002 4:37 am

If our form of capatalism doesn't work how do you explain people like Bill Gates, Sam Walmart,or Donald Trump or the many many other people who went from not being rich to being rich from the fruits of their own labor. There are many examples of this. Yes the rich stay rich but the poor can make better for themselves.It may take a bit of luck but it is also a lot of hard work to. This kinda of thing doesn't happen in many countries in the world but it does happen in ours. Kifle I won't even say anything about you except that you know that I know ;P so hush.
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Postby Kifle » Fri Feb 22, 2002 5:59 am

You are absolutely right gintor...I am a pessamist, but for reasons and that is just how a chose to live. I don't knock optimists for the simple fact that they are optimists at all; In fact, I would much rather be able to cope with things in an optimistic mindset, but that doesn't work for me...

What you say about all of the other countries...Yeah you are right again, everybody has problems and that will never change. All I am saying is that I am not patriotic because I dont agree with how this country is being run, and that I think that living in Canada would better suit my lifestyle and political views in a better way that America does for me. So when I say screw America, it is my opinion based on what I like and dislike in a governing body and not necessarily the people that make up the country. Maybe you like the way you are governed, but I sure as hell don't and that is why I have these views...if you like it fine, if you don't great, but dont take my statements as I hate the people here.

Everybody needs to express their opinions, whether publicly or privately, and it makes me feel better that I can do it in front of intelligent people rather than the people I live around. This, unfortunately, is a very touchy subject and that is why we flame back and forth. I accept this and don't necessarily take any offense to much of it at all. If I have offended anyone, sorry, but this is a touchy subject and if you can't handle it dont post, If you feel the need to flame me for some reason, have at it...everyone is entitled to their own opinions and have the right to speak them. I have no hard feelings towards any of you, and praise Corth for starting this *cough* Image

Kifle
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Postby Zrax » Fri Feb 22, 2002 6:56 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kifle:
<B> Rofl, I give my credentials when asked...ilshad gives his to boast, and "I" am the one on trial here?! omg! talk about blindness in the 3rd degree! If I am supposedly the one with low self esteem for my comment in my defense, what would you say about this one zrax?! rofl, or is it that you dont flame ppl with the same views as you?! shit based on zrax's assumptions and supposed truths, ilshad would have commited suicide 2 years ago rofl!

kifle

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I flame Ilshad almost every chance i get, but you are right i don't flame people who have the same views as me, because that wouldnt make much sense, this according to my sub 150 iq standards of course.
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Postby cherzra » Fri Feb 22, 2002 8:24 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>Cherzra,
What you have is a system that rewards corruption, not a corrupt group of people inundating the system. And from what you wrote, I think you know this.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. What we have is an excellent system that takes care of those who are disabled, those that cannot work, those that are sick, those that want to go to school. On the other side, we have Maroccans, Antillians, Surinamese, Iranians, Somalians and Turks who have a total disregard for our culture. Who think that because we Dutch are so relaxed and easy-going, that they suddenly found themselves in the land where everything is allowed and act accordingly.

They treat us like shit, turn nice neighborhoods into filthy areas, their children are so criminal you would not believe it, AND almost all of them are on wellfare, whether they have a job or not. I could explain in-depth how our government likes to cater to these people, going out of its way to give them ANYTHING they want, but you wouldn't understand unless you lived here and saw it with your own eyes.

Look at the growth figures I mentioned above, and remember that this country is 1/288th the size of the US. There is no longer such thing as people who are true asylum seekers according to the UN definition, instead these people pay ten thousand dollars to maffiosi to buy their way into Holland. On the way here they flush their passports down the toilet, so they cannot be sent back. The system is such, that these people automatically get a 'green card' for PERMANENT residency and citizenship after three years. If your case is dismissed, you just appeal. An appeal easily takes a year, and there is no limit to the amount of appeals you can make. In other words, once they arrive, they are here to stay. 90% of these people get wellfare, and a government payed house. While natives cannot get a house unless they wait on a list for three years. They get government payed child allowance, they do not have any pressure or obligation to learn our language and culture so their neighborhoods are like a whole other country, their families are fetched from wherever they are within the year - all government payed, of course. Fifty thousand people a year. Do you realize how much that is for such a tiny country? Maybe now you understand why our population went up 60% the past 50 years. If you think this is bad, take a look at the diagrams which show the proportion of natives / non natives over this period of time, and you will see that the previous has stayed the same and that the growth can be accounted to non-natives. Do you know that we're the second most densely populated country on earth? Do you know what rats do, when there are too many of them in a confined space? Right, they kill each other. Note that there are most certainly native shitheads too, who should be punished harshly, but the main problem here is a new city the size of Groningen popping up every four years. Then tell me that the increasing demand on our social system, the increase in crime and the defiling of our large cities is not the result of this shit. It is. When I walk around in Amsterdam or any other such city, I feel like I am walking around in another country, and I most certainly do not like it.

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