America and the rest of the world

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
fildur
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Postby fildur » Fri Feb 22, 2002 11:17 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Grintor:
I'm 27.

Originally posted by Ilshadrial:
I had already completed my undergraduate degree, MBA degree, and managed to publish, all by the age of 23.
Originally posted by Kifle:
<B>
I think that is one huge load for a 21 yr old! And I am fine for being able to afford a house at 21...
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

children...
whats with all this age-hangups?
if someome has a phd at 25, does that make him a better person than the person that got his at 40?
what does the 25 yr phd know about real life?
as a manager of a company i would hire the 25 yr old b4 the 40 yr old, cause the 25 yr old hasnt been around, i could use him as i please, but does that make the 25 yr old more inteligent? i dont think so...

fyi, im 35...
fyi, im 13...
fyi, im 22...
fyi, im 60...
fyi, ye gots a messed up age data-base...
/fil
Ilshadrial
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Postby Ilshadrial » Fri Feb 22, 2002 12:46 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kifle:
4. as for well educated...I am pretty sure I own, and have read, more books that you have seen...no not the ones you read with the colorful pictures in them, but real books. I have taken many years of college, unfortunately have switched my major around...I have a full ride scholorship payed for by the wonderful state of indiana *cough* because of extremely high test scores...I have a modest 156 iq...I think that should qualify as educated, yes?
5. Regardless of what the specific history of the Roman empire is, it still doesn't change the fact that they were the super power of the time and they eventually fell because of various reasons...One was arrogance.


Kifle[/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only reason I posted my "credintials" because you got on your horse and tried to trample me with, I have read more books ect, comment. So that is why you got that response.

As far as hiring the 25 yr old to the 40 yr old it would depend on the skill set you need n'est pas? Surely you would not hire just based on age unless it was an entry level position. Afterall your company needs to hire young people in order for your company to continue to have a competant work-base when the older peeps retire. Even while having a MBA you just don't walk into a buisness and get a job, heh. I took an entry level position (still having to have to know someone) into my company to get my foot in the door, thanks to a mudder who is now my best friend in real life. After that I worked my tail off and have since been promoted a few times, ect...

Oh, and The United States is not going down the drain, nor would I sit by and watch it do so, being a patriot you try to help your country during her needs, which I think was demonstrated to the world after the 09/11 attack? Almost every common citizen helped in someway to help New York recover and its victims.

Any of you ever watch C-Span? You can learn a lot from that.



[This message has been edited by Ilshadrial (edited 02-22-2002).]
Calata
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Postby Calata » Fri Feb 22, 2002 7:14 pm

I'd just like to interject a bit here.

It seems to me that people in general need to keep in mind that governments, societal and economic systems, actions, etc can be judged on numerous different levels. For instance, whether or not an action is legal has virtually no bearing on whether or not it is moral or ethical.

As of this moment, the US is pretty 'sucessful'. Overall, the States probably has the most powerful economy, best-equipped military, and most influential culture in the world. Eventually it will end - Kifle's right, everything ends at some point. After all, you can't honestly expect 'progress' to go on forever - in order for that to occur, you'd need permanent population growth and a never-ending supply of natural resources, and neither of those are possible.

However, assuming the US has a whole lot of life left yet, I will admit that the best thing for the government is to be going after all these 'terrorist-supporting' countries. That would be..um..the best thing for the _government_. Not necessarily the populace. The primary motive of every institution is to keep itself in existence, and governments are no exception to the rule. Sure, sure...the founding fathers of the US may have been really idealistic, Enlightenment-era humanists, and I will admit that most of them were pretty damn smart, but simply because an action is beneficial to the governing body does not mean it is beneficial to the people. After all, many dictatorships have been immensely successful.

But...I don't think there's any need to point out that in US history there are plenty of instances where the government has put its own interests over the people - we could keep the examples recent or go further back. The draft, war-time propaganda, the drug wars since the 1920s, the use of police brutality in protests going back to the workers-rights attempts of the 1880s and even further back. The US does NOT behave like a nation built on the power of its people, but as a system of banks and businesses, lobbies and the entertainment industry.

That said, in the long run the United States was probably better off because of the genocide of Native American tribes, the institution of slavery, the repression of workers, the occupation of Japan, the College of the Americas, the Gulf War, the Lusitania bullshit, and the countless other incidents or attitudes that have disillusioned generation upon generation. The US is probably better off, but again...that does not make it moral, that does not make it ethical, that does not even make it legal.

Calata
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Postby Kuurg » Fri Feb 22, 2002 9:10 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Fezbozz:
If our form of capatalism doesn't work how do you explain people like Bill Gates, Sam Walmart,or Donald Trump or the many many other people who went from not being rich to being rich from the fruits of their own labor. There are many examples of this. Yes the rich stay rich but the poor can make better for themselves.It may take a bit of luck but it is also a lot of hard work to. This kinda of thing doesn't happen in many countries in the world but it does happen in ours. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I stated that what we have is not true capitalism, and I cited one of the reasons why.

We still are a variant of a true capitalist society, and some of the benefits conferred by capitalism are ours because of it (namely the ability to pull one's self up by the boot straps if one has ambition and talent (and, as you said, some luck))

I like the US. I'm happy here. That's not to say there isn't room for improvement.




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·•Kuurg•·
Zagaz
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Postby Zagaz » Fri Feb 22, 2002 9:45 pm

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/GIS.Servlets.HTMLTemplate?tf=tgam/columnists/FullColumn.html&cf=tgam/columnists/FullColumn.cfg&configFileLoc=tgam/config&date=&dateOffset=&hub=r ickSalutin&title=Rick_Salutin&cache_key=rickSalutin¤t_row=1&start_row=1&num_rows=1

here is a link to an opinion piece written by a canadian journalist in one of our national papers, the Globe and Mail. He is quite obviously a socialist, however he does bring up some interesting points in this article, that sort of sum up some of the many topics on this thread.....one might think he was reading the BBS.....hmmm....
Disoputlip
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Postby Disoputlip » Fri Feb 22, 2002 11:51 pm

Hey! Im actually a communist Image

Mabye it would be fair to give a small overview on how socialist society denmark works. Mabye you can use it as an input for alternatives, it would most likely not work in an empire (and i see US as an empire). Sweeden got something similar.

Ok, danes pay around 35%-60% tax. Then you have free healthcare, libraries. And you get a small amount of money if you go to highschool or collage and don't live home. And its easier to get money from the government if you don't have a job.

The healthcare is pretty crappy compared to private hospitals.

Although I make a fair salary (I have B Sc (Hons) in computer science) then I don't mind paying the high (60%) tax. I know it benefits our society. However, a lot of people cheat with taxes in numourous ways.

I think beeing a capitalist/communist has nothing to do with your income. It is in your genes or something.

I think that USA handles some of the things our government does with charity work. The NGO's that does these things are not in my view capitalistic, but seem nessary in the super-liberalistic society structure US have.

All the important democracy in Denmark is basically like the US. The 3-division of power (government, house of representativs, police/courts) and the basic freedoms as the 2nd most important. Some differences are that the prime minister can not parten a prisoner. And is much weaker than a president. Much more has to pass in the house of representatives. (we call it folketing).

So, that concludes the basic tour to Denmark. (hope i got the 3-division right, I know you have it, just not sure what the names are) Image

/Disoputlip
sok
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Postby sok » Sat Feb 23, 2002 12:51 am

i consider reading this but 305 post is too much can someone just summarized it for lazy me. thanks
Tanras
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Postby Tanras » Sat Feb 23, 2002 2:55 am

Sok,

It goes like this. Everyone is a genius and everyone else is wrong. Every country sucks for a lot of reasons, no one works hard, we will all die very soon of either terrorist bombs, faulty health care systems, or just plain stupidity. The United States isn't right for Kifle, but she won't just go away, and Corth is pwn.

Tanras
Grintor
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Postby Grintor » Sun Feb 24, 2002 9:16 am

pssssssst...

the U.S. is not a democracy, it's a republic....

there are no senates or legislative branches in a democracy....

in democracy everyone votes....

the new term for our government, given to us by our lovely liberal press is 'representative democracy'.....

psssst...more B.S. incoming.....
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Postby Gindipple » Sun Feb 24, 2002 10:04 am

What's all the buzz in this thread about?
Sure is a long sucker.

America > (Insert your country here)


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Salen
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Postby Salen » Sun Feb 24, 2002 10:32 am

Haha Goodie beat Ebil for largest # of responses. Goodie 0wnz'd j00.


Sorry had to
Eadgydd
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Postby Eadgydd » Thu Feb 28, 2002 9:41 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by groguk:
<B>[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kifle:
[B] Yeah, I hate capitalism. Who doesn't, unless you are in the upper 1% that is actually benefiting.

i am about as middle class as they come, and i think capitalism is just fine, it (generaly) rewards those who are willing to work</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. Too bad we don't have true capitalism in the US.
lanik
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Postby lanik » Thu Feb 28, 2002 11:06 pm

The United States:

where shall we begin. Ahh, the trite but inevitable comparison to ancient Rome; specifically analogies to the decline, which as many have observed, we're currently in.

I suspect our main problem as a country, at least in respect to how we're viewed by the rest of the world, is our imperialistic tendencies. These however are inherent to mankind, so it's hard to fault our "will to power" [1] and the general baseness of our species as a whole.

Do we deserve the contempt we currently enjoy from much of the world? Yes i suppose we do; arrogance breeds contempt after all. Such sobriquets as "merkin" and "spetic" are well deserved as long as we preserve the illusion of superiority; and our actions follow along the lines dictated by the attitudes.

Are we in fact deserving of this boundless arrogance? I don't believe so. We are a consumer society (which consumes well in excess of our allotted share of the earth's natural resources) with largely materialistic sensibilities and a feeling of entitlement; entitlement to invade sovereign nations (as long as they don't have the atomic bomb) and generally do as we will.

From a biblical frame of reference we are indeed wicked. From a secular perspective we are greedy, arrogant and bullying.

This is not to say that we don't have some redeeming qualities; until recently (pre: USA act) we enjoyed, as citizens, quite a bit of personal freedom. This however, is becoming more and more a thing of the past.

Our institutions are designed, not to enlighten, but to create conformist consumers. In the words of H.L. Mencken:

"That erroneous assumption is to the effect that the aim of public education is to fill the young of the species with knowledge and awaken their intelligence, and so make them fit to discharge the duties of citizenship in an enlightened and independent manner. Nothing could be further from the truth.

"The aim of public education is not to spread enlightenment at all, it is simply to reduce as many individuals as possible to the same safe level, to breed and train a standardized citizenry, to put down dissent and originality. That is its aim in the United States, whatever the pretensions of politicians, pedagogues and other such mountebanks, and that is its aim everywhere else."[2]

While things to appear bleak, I find comfort in the long view; civilizations have risen and fallen many times, and will continue to do so. One does hope, however, that after the next breakdown something might be preserved so that we won't have to start from scratch again.

[1] "Beyond Good and Evil" Friedrich Nietzsche.
[2] H L. Menchken
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Postby Yayaril » Fri Mar 01, 2002 1:24 am

You're all wrong.


Yayaril
Jasix Prowlingwolf
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Postby Jasix Prowlingwolf » Wed Mar 06, 2002 4:33 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Karikhan:
<B>o JESUS I'm joining the rants

sorry im no typist ... i prefer to use caps only to ephasize a point .. i type faster that way...

I breezed past most of the BS .... but have a thing or two to say ...

Yes I am proud American ... I have earned the right to be proud ...

what pisses me off is the sudden NEW patriots ... since sept 11th ... where the HELL were you before that ??? I was onboard the USS Enterprise when the WTC towers were hit .. was watching it on the news as most people did .. as it happened ... i felt our engines come to a dead stop in the middle of the ocean .. then start back up and turn back toward the arabian gulf .. spend an additional month overseas when i coulda been with my kids .. so when i get home i am welcomed like a hero .. there are flags flying from every car, every house, every storefront, etc (course i live in navy town too) ... people CRIED when they saw us come home .... but where the hell was the support before that??? noone gave a shit about us the military members... we live on a lower income scale than we deserve when we defend the US ... i heard once (will have to find it) .. that we were getting a payraise and some celebrity (insert huge guffaw)was freaking out saying we are already overpaid ..) well jesus!! put a price on my life ... put a price on the lives of people we have saved ... put a price on the number of holidays i have missed with my children because i chose to remain a member of the greatest navy in the world ...

there is so much the general public doesnt know about us, the military .. the hours we work (those that know me can attest to this) ... the shit we put up with ... the crummy duty we have to stand .. the cold, the heat (OMFG bahrain is hot in september) ... and we did this all BEFORE september 11th .. why?? because we want the world to be FREE ... and i think thats what drives most of us .....

then there are the asshole americans who are far too arrogant for their own good .. the ones who hide from service, who spout how great america is .. how we kick everyones ass .. get a fucking CLUE ... we arent perfect .. in fact we butt in far too often in things that dont concern us ...

we arent learned in any other country but ours ... we dont learn basic geography about the world we chose to pillage ... we dont learn cultures, or religions .. we are so inferior scholastically (except those who chose to advance themselves) god we are sooo arrogant!!!! i remember being stationed in spain .. and how gorgeous it was .. all the history that was there ... this one couple sticks out in my mind cause they said it was so bad there .. everything was so OLD (laugh) ..instead of enjoying spain and learing its people, cultures, food, and language .. they chose to stay on the base and lament for the day they would return to the US ... god help them ....

what i do ask of others .. from other countries is this ... be patient with us .. we are still learning .. remember how young we are as a nation .. think of us as *new money* .. where we gotta go out and buy flashy new cars instead of being comfortable and subtle about our wealth..... where you all have learned from your mistakes historically.. we are still making our history ... where yours is 2000 years old and more, ours is still only at 500 years and counting.... so when you get impatient,.. stop to think ...


/end rant

-Jen </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*smile* Jen my dear you are one little American i love dearly, I know all to well the times you miss with your girls and the rest of your family. The sudden changes in plans and not even knowing when you will be getting home again. (and the lost mail :P)

We don't hate america or american's but I know that a LOT of us hate a lot of the american attitude... Big is not best, and strongest doesn't mean you deserve respect.

Be the BIG FRIEND of the world not the big pushy brother or worse the BIG BULLY that shouts loudest that he can smack every last one of you in to the ground.. Sure people are scared and even give respect to bullies, but most of them are fat dumb assholes with few real friends except a few worthless toadies....

Thanks Jen and all the rest of you that have servered your own country to help protect the safety and peace of this planet.

Some day there will not be an America and Australia or England or Canada (and hopefully no France!) but one planet with 1 defence force, fighting to save Earth from big bugs that come from out of space on huge masses of rock! Oh my god the wiped out BonoZaries!

Or we could just keep our heads up our asses and let the bugs eat us all...
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Postby Gort » Wed Mar 06, 2002 7:22 pm

* Breaks out a giant can of RAID *


Bring on the bugs!


Toplack
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Postby Nokie » Wed Mar 06, 2002 9:04 pm

Make love not war?

Image

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Nokie 'No you don't!! That belongs to me!' Quickfingers
combatmedic
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Postby combatmedic » Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:04 am

I feel for ya Jen, I find that the only people that really respect our soldiers/sailors generally are other veterans. I was alwayz treated like a king by other veterans whenever i went on leave back home. So now that i am a veteran myself now, i guess i get to return the favor. I guess you have to "walk in the boots" in order to appreciate our soldiers. Of course that is just generalizing...cause there are alwayz acceptions to the rule.



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Postby Tesil » Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:28 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by combatmedic:
<B>I feel for ya Jen, I find that the only people that really respect our soldiers/sailors generally are other veterans. I was alwayz treated like a king by other veterans whenever i went on leave back home. So now that i am a veteran myself now, i guess i get to return the favor. I guess you have to "walk in the boots" in order to appreciate our soldiers. Of course that is just generalizing...cause there are alwayz acceptions to the rule.



</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most people don't have any clue what the military is like....I'm proud to have served, and will always have great respect for those who do. And great disrespect for anyone who degrades the military or those who would willingly give their lives so little no-it-alls could run their mouths.

Semper Fidelis



[This message has been edited by Tesil (edited 03-06-2002).]
Karikhan
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Postby Karikhan » Thu Mar 07, 2002 1:51 am

thats just cause you have been there with me, jas ... you have seen the shit i put up with (btw am getting HUGE accolades at work these days cause of the job i do leading *my* men :P)

i personally LOVE to learn about other cultures (you should hear some of the things me and jas have talked about over the years ...i just cant get him to undertsand he is upside-down!!) ...

imho .. wherever you come from .. you are instilled with basic human .. hrrm .. curiosities .. and it is your job to explore them .. to find out why and how everything ticks... basically ..

just cause its different doesnt make it wrong....


-Jen
sok
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Postby sok » Thu Mar 07, 2002 9:44 am

Tanras you rock. when it gets to 600. i will be back for an update. keep up to good work.

sok
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Postby Selias » Fri Mar 29, 2002 10:02 am

I'm not even going to lie... I didn't read any previous replies, but I hope you realize that america is analagous with that hot guy who gets all the chicks.

So stop being jealous and get your own chicks.

Image
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Postby moritheil » Sun Apr 07, 2002 4:15 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tanras:
<B>Sok,

It goes like this. Everyone is a genius and everyone else is wrong.
Tanras</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You just summarized 99% of all bbs posts.
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Postby Dalar » Wed Jan 29, 2003 7:54 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kifle:
<B>1. No I am not a teenager...close but no cigar in your ass...
2. I am pregnant and have to live in my home...yes I own my own house, for 3 more years before I can come out ahead in the deal.
3. I am a student of physics. have the job market skills: I can weld with a MIG, arc, and a bit of the oxytorch. I could very well relearn how to program in visual basic 5.0, also relearn c++ and maybe even visual c++, I can build and maintain a computer.
4. as for well educated...I am pretty sure I own, and have read, more books that you have seen...no not the ones you read with the colorful pictures in them, but real books. I have taken many years of college, unfortunately have switched my major around...I have a full ride scholorship payed for by the wonderful state of indiana *cough* because of extremely high test scores...I have a modest 156 iq...I think that should qualify as educated, yes?
5. Regardless of what the specific history of the Roman empire is, it still doesn't change the fact that they were the super power of the time and they eventually fell because of various reasons...One was arrogance.

Yes, it was funny to say the least and I am glad you can find humor when you are being poked fun at...to say more, it was intelligent, insightful, and damn true Image

Kifle</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

that must have been one tough dump!


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Postby Daz » Wed Jan 29, 2003 8:31 am

ROFL

omg, sweet bump
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Postby Zolth » Wed Jan 29, 2003 12:30 pm

I only read the article on the link provided by Corth in the first post. I ignored the rest. Why? Because I don't want to be biaessed by the posts I read. Hence the reply I'm writing isn't of what just have been posted.

I think that the author of this article is missing some points. (Correct me if I'm wrong Corth, my english isn't good enought to fully understand everything that is said in the original link.) The author wrote: Quote: "If Europeans resent America's power, they need to ask themselves: would they like to confront global terrorism without it?" /End Quote.

I belive that the "global terrorism" isn't as simple as he points it out to be. Most of the extreme groups like al-Qaida has a borned hatered to the US, not Europe itself. I can agree with the fact that US has helped Europe to "clean up it's back yard" from some time now and that we should be greatful for that. But there is also events in the history where Europe has helped America get back on it's feets.

The question I would like to ask is: "Would the US like to confront global terrorism without Europe?

Strength and power can be messured in diffrent ways, Ie. US sent tons of military into Vietnam and had tons of casualltys against a very small enemy. Let's say that Europe wouldn't let the US step onto European soil. Then all the extremist groups would be "safe" and suicide bombings and terrorist attacks like the 11th September would sky rocket into a future that none of us wants to see. Personally, I do not agree that war is the sullution to any problem. I would say that it's the very last resort.. And from what I read in the papers today (I read more then Swedish magazines mind you.) I would say that (from the perhaps biassed P.O.W I've gotten through media) the US is just itching to start a new war. Why? Because of economy, vengance, anger.. Who knows?

Just my two cents, let the flaming begin..

-Zolth-

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Postby Corth » Wed Jan 29, 2003 4:14 pm

Zolth, your a few months late on this thread...

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Goddamned slippery mage.

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