America and the rest of the world

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Sarvis
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Feb 12, 2002 8:49 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ilshadrial:
<B>Actually, we would all be speaking German right now...

Anyway, I support Bush's effort to push our country into showing the world the US will not tolerate being attacked by any means. Look at the Taliban, they actually thought they had a chance against the most sophisticated Militia in the world. Iraq, 5th largest mility power in the world was crushed in just under 24 hours. Interesting eh?

I have no idea why you guys are soo on Bush's case, he did what he had to do. Our country suffered an ACT of WAR. Action was needed, regardless of what the world thought. The American people demanded action, and we got it. What would you have done if you were president? Sit on your ass and try to comfort your citizens and let it blow over? There would be 1000s more dead I am sure within the major US cities had nothing been done.

Ilshad</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I have no problem with his response to the Taliban's attack. I do have problems with him using the "war" as an excuse to force every policy he wants through congress and destroy the national budget in the process.


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Postby Jegzed » Tue Feb 12, 2002 8:51 pm

Arrgh... I hate when people bundle "Europe" together. It is a CONTINENT, not a country.

There are bigger differences between the countries in Europe than there is between the countries on the American Continent.

Then again, the majority of americans live in poverty and starve, and can't speak english, and lot of them live in communist states such as Cuba.
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Postby Corth » Tue Feb 12, 2002 9:08 pm

Since the EU has begun conducting foreign policy as a single entity, I don't think its unfair to lump the countries of Europe together when speaking of European policy.

Corth
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Postby Jegzed » Tue Feb 12, 2002 9:29 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>Since the EU has begun conducting foreign policy as a single entity, I don't think its unfair to lump the countries of Europe together when speaking of European policy.
Corth</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

15 countries of 40 make up the EU.
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Postby azzixxenae » Tue Feb 12, 2002 9:40 pm

well goona throw my two cents in but before I do I'll just state that I work for the military even to this day, spend a lot of time overseas, Kuwait, Saudi, and other locations doing super cool shit, served in the military and am proud to be an america (all stated just so don't think i'm anti-america..far from it)

Bush is right on target with his actions...I'm proud I voted for him.

Europe (Germany and Austria mainly - spent 3 years living there) are excellent countries that if given the opportunity I'd move there now and work. In fact I'm trying to transfer my position to Ramstein AB GE. They have different freedoms that we don't have here in america (and vice versa). It may be weird but I NEVER felt uncomfortable driving/walking through "rundown" neighborhoods while I was in Europe...put me in any DC or New York/Boston "rundown" neighborhood and I'll break every traffic law trying to get out of there.

And San Marino..lived there for 5 months..that's a kick ass country. Good cuban cigars and all. Rimini rocks during the summertime..

that is all.
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Postby muma » Tue Feb 12, 2002 9:42 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by fildur:
<B> youngest? what about czech(or however its spelled), slovakia, serbia, macedonia, ukraine, kazakhstan, india etc, etc, etc. then again some ppl just wont stick to facts:/

id say yer just full of a s-load o blah-blah.......
/fil</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


*ROFL* fildur india is an old country. it's pakistan and bangladesh that are the newer countries :P :P jeeeeeez
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Postby muma » Tue Feb 12, 2002 9:43 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B> Cherzra:

You dont give any examples of why groups such as Al Qaeda might hate the United States. But even if you did give such an example, you would not be able to justify their use of terrorist attacks upon civilian targets. Nobody in their right mind can... and I trust that you are sane. Image

I think, however, that you misunderstand the problem. Bin Laden hates Western Civilization and its "corrupting" influence upon islamic society. When you watch the Al Queda training videos, the target dummies are not wearing a U.S. Flag, they wear a Christian Cross.

The government of the U.S. has a responsibility to protect its citizens from violent attacks by such extremist groups. However, the reason the terrorists attack is not anything the U.S. has control of. It is a Westernized country and that alone is enough to provoke attacks. The U.S. is the sole remaining superpower in the world, the only entity with the power and might to eradicate these bastards that would use nuclear weapons if they could only get their hands on them. I think unilateral action in this situation is warranted.

World opinion is just that, an opinion. Remember.. Israel was condemmed by the whole world, including the U.S., after its preemptive strike on the Iraqi nuclear facility in the 80's. Good thing they didn't cower in the face of world opinion in that situation or Saddam would now control Kuwait and Saudi Arabia as well as threaten every other country in the region.

Corth</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

corth u couldn't have said it better Image
well maybe better, but i'm just saying that was well said
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Postby Jegzed » Tue Feb 12, 2002 10:00 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by muma:
<B>
*ROFL* fildur india is an old country. it's pakistan and bangladesh that are the newer countries :P :P jeeeeeez</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*ROFL* PLONK!

1946? or whenever was when India formed.

Before that it was part of the British Empire, and before that it consisted of hundreds of minor states, of various cultures and languages. India is a sub-continent of its own, and never really been united before the Brits. (The Mughal empire of the 16th and 17th centuries was not indian in nation, but a legacy of Timurlenks moslem empire spreading down into india, and it never covered the southern nor the eastmost parts.

Sigh...Do all kids skip history in school today?
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Postby izarek » Tue Feb 12, 2002 11:55 pm

Please. Al Qaida hit us harder than the Japanese did at Pearl Harbor (death wise). Its a 'no brainer' choice to retalliate. Even G. W. Bush saw that. He barely got into college, but that's an obvious move even to him. So he should be revered for making easy/obvious choices that garner public support and put money in his pocket in the short run? That's sad. He doesn't have the nads to make the hard choices.
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Postby Thurg » Wed Feb 13, 2002 12:00 am

no they dont, they just only learn about european history or us history. at my school there is no asian history or even much native american history. hell we dont learn a damn thing about africa or the middle east.

back to the topic...

i personally think bush is doing a fairly good job. gore would be pissing his pants still if he didnt drop dead. i personally think we should have used non military leaders as allies in the long run but what are you going to do. europe has been bailed out by us numerous times. greece would have been a commie nation if not for our aid. we gave you a ton of cash to rebuild your economies after ww1. the americans were the only ones to even imagine a united nations and now we are getting screwed by it. we have always been against hostile nations even if we didnt outright attack them. the allies got lots of aid throughout both world wars when we thought they might actually stand a chance of winning them but when we found out they couldnt we stepped in and helped.
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Postby Mplor » Wed Feb 13, 2002 12:23 am

The greatest intellectual development of the West has been the axiom that the power to govern can only be legitimized with the consent of the governed. In the age of nation-building, our founding fathers built the US upon that bedrock. We, however, are exiting the age of nations and entering into an age of globalization. Increasingly, borders are lines of economic demarcation and little else.

There is no such thing as national policy any more. Even expressly internal policies leak into the water table of the world. Borders do not stop the footsoldiers of the New Warfare of the 21st century. Likewise, decisions made in North America birth tidal waves that sweep around the globe, for good or ill. With whom will we trade? Which nations' imports are favored and which are taxed? For whom will we intervene, with humanitarian means or militarily? To whom will we sell arms? These are decisions all nations make, but because of our disproportionate power, our decisions have a startlingly immediate effect on real people far away. In a sense, these people are twisting in the winds that blow from North America and alternately blessing or cursing them as they blow fair and foul.

Having power and having the right to wield it are two separate things. Much of the power in the world is concentrated in US hands, but we err in thinking that the Right to wield that power is solely ours. To argue that we have the right to act upon others without their consent is to claim that Might Makes Right. That's the credo of the playground bully who, by simple quirk of nature, is stronger than you. No, the right to wield power lies not in the wielder but in the at-large consent of the community. It's true within our borders and we absolutely must realize that it is also true internationally, or we are hypocrites.

When we act, we shape the world. It is in our interest to act in concert with our allies and the democratic nations of the world, or we will find that we stand alone. We are not destined for eternal hegemony; our status is the whim of fate and fortune. Look to history for the proof of it. We must work now to build a global community where everyone's voice is equal and power is equitably shared, or we'll find the irony of our eventual decline all the more bitter for its isolation.

Mplor, patriot

edit: Damn USB codes. *mutter*

[This message has been edited by Mplor (edited 02-12-2002).]
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Postby Corth » Wed Feb 13, 2002 1:46 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mplor:
We must work now to build a global community where everyone's voice is equal and power is equitably shared, or we'll find the irony of our eventual decline all the more bitter for its isolation.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A global community where the voice of Iran, Iraq, and North Korea, or for that matter Al Queda, have equal power with democratic and free countries, is simply perverse.

Corth

[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 02-12-2002).]
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Postby Yasden » Wed Feb 13, 2002 1:55 am

Jegzed is right. India and most of the territory around there was controlled by Great Britain up until post-WWII.

India itself though *IS* old...but its status as a country is but a bebe. B)

*poke jeg* I didn't skip history!
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Postby Sarvis » Wed Feb 13, 2002 2:54 am

Mplor: Actually, it's not entirely our government at fault in this. My senior seminar class last quarter was about exactly these issues, and the common theme that kept arising was how large <u>corporations</u> were trampling the rights of people in poor nations. In other words, our country does what it can to help... but large, supra-national, companies are doing whatever they want because they have no real governing body. Several corporations have a higher "GNP" than many countries do. And it's difficult to do anything about these as well, specifically because of international boundries and such. Say Nike was exploiting workers in Laos, who punishes them? Nike is based in Japan (if I remember correctly,) does most of it's business in America and doesn't even own any of the factories in Laos. Instead they buy the shoes from Korean companies which own the sweatshops in Laos.

Really, there's not much a single nation can do about this kind of stuff. We need a more powerful global governing body.

Sarvis

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Corth
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Postby Corth » Wed Feb 13, 2002 3:40 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarvis:
<B>Really, there's not much a single nation can do about this kind of stuff. We need a more powerful global governing body.

Sarvis

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Panic.. powerful global governing bodies. You mean the one with representatives from Iran, Iraq and North Korea huh? How about instead, let the nation of Laos determine its own human rights rules, and enforce them?

Corth
Sarvis
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Postby Sarvis » Wed Feb 13, 2002 4:08 am

Yes, they've done so well at it so far.
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Postby muma » Wed Feb 13, 2002 6:02 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ilshadrial:
<B>Actually, we would all be speaking German right now...

Anyway, I support Bush's effort to push our country into showing the world the US will not tolerate being attacked by any means. Look at the Taliban, they actually thought they had a chance against the most sophisticated Militia in the world. Iraq, 5th largest mility power in the world was crushed in just under 24 hours. Interesting eh?

I have no idea why you guys are soo on Bush's case, he did what he had to do. Our country suffered an ACT of WAR. Action was needed, regardless of what the world thought. The American people demanded action, and we got it. What would you have done if you were president? Sit on your ass and try to comfort your citizens and let it blow over? There would be 1000s more dead I am sure within the major US cities had nothing been done.

Ilshad</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i totally agree!
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Postby muma » Wed Feb 13, 2002 6:12 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jegzed:
<B> *ROFL* PLONK!

1946? or whenever was when India formed.

Before that it was part of the British Empire, and before that it consisted of hundreds of minor states, of various cultures and languages. India is a sub-continent of its own, and never really been united before the Brits. (The Mughal empire of the 16th and 17th centuries was not indian in nation, but a legacy of Timurlenks moslem empire spreading down into india, and it never covered the southern nor the eastmost parts.

Sigh...Do all kids skip history in school today?</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well i guess you spanked me good. there u win! hehe Image
Corth
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Postby Corth » Wed Feb 13, 2002 6:40 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarvis:
<B>
Yes, they've done so well at it so far.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If laos does not want to impose western style human rights standards, who are we or anyone else to demand it of them? If you have a problem with Nike using labor from that country, buy from a different company. Shrug. Apparently the deal is good for the people working in those factories, otherwise they wouldn't...

Corth
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Postby Eadgydd » Wed Feb 13, 2002 7:51 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarvis:
<B>Mplor: Actually, it's not entirely our government at fault in this. My senior seminar class last quarter was about exactly these issues, and the common theme that kept arising was how large <u>corporations</u> were trampling the rights of people in poor nations. In other words, our country does what it can to help... but large, supra-national, companies are doing whatever they want because they have no real governing body. Several corporations have a higher "GNP" than many countries do. And it's difficult to do anything about these as well, specifically because of international boundries and such. Say Nike was exploiting workers in Laos, who punishes them? Nike is based in Japan (if I remember correctly,) does most of it's business in America and doesn't even own any of the factories in Laos. Instead they buy the shoes from Korean companies which own the sweatshops in Laos.

Really, there's not much a single nation can do about this kind of stuff. We need a more powerful global governing body.

Sarvis

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First Mplor: Yours is one of the few well-informed and well thought out posts on this thread, not to mention well-written... are you a professional opinion writer? So many of these posts sound to me like 'My daddy can beat up your daddy, so I'm better than you.' Come one folks, to say that because of the great things the US and Americans have done in the past justifies anything the US does today is just plain childish.

Sarvis, you are absolutely right that corporations have too much power. The original source of that power was the legal ability, started in the US, to have status as an individual, without the liabilities of an individial (ie, criminal prosecution). Just once give a corporation the death penalty for its illegal activity (disband, seize and sell all its assets to fund restitution, no bankruptcy filing allowed) and see how many corporations continue their human rights abuses. Under the current system all you can do is sue in civil court, and hope against hope the corporation doesn't simply declare bankruptcy to dodge the bullet, then re-solidify afterward, continuing business as usual.

Or, how about dispensing with the laws of incorporation altogether, and hold REAL PEOPLE responsible for the decisions they make? For example, charge the CEO with murder when a decision he makes or agrees to poisons the drinking water of an entire community, then covers it up despite the fact that it will lead to the deaths of hundreds of people (as with PG&E).

Unfortunately, as Sarvis pointed out, so many corporations are supra-national that a change in corporate law in the US would simply send them into hiding in other countries. Not that the law would ever change, since said corporations fund the vast majority of election campaigns.

That, my friends, is why we need campaign finance reform... not that it will ever happen, even with the Enron scandal pushing it to front and center... I bet the senators and reps will weasel out of it somehow, though I hope I'm wrong.

Sorry for the rant, but this is a sore issue for me...

Eadgydd, who believes in personal responsibilty for EVERYONE
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Postby moritheil » Wed Feb 13, 2002 8:14 am

Shadowrun anyone?
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Postby Tuga » Wed Feb 13, 2002 10:15 am

G'day all,

After having a really good time reading all the posts on this thread, here is my 0.02€.
For those in the US that dont know what '€' means, it is the symbol of the new coin in 12 countries of europe.

Fisrt of all, the response of the american goverment to the attacks of Sep 11 are appropriate for the simple reason that when you declare a war on a country, according to the Varsovia Convention, you do on the military and/or goverment of that country and no on its civilians. So, thus far they have my approval.

Secondly, I think all americans fail to understand why there is so much criticism over anything that they do. Yes its a catch 22. You are damned if do and damned if you don't. The real fact is that if 30 years ago you havent interfered USSR and its invasion of Afeganistan, maybe the Taliban would never be in power. But, in your defense I say, if you havent interfered than all the so called 'allies' would criticize you for the bloodshed.

Sadam Hussain is another example of you interference. Raging a war on Iraq wont solve Iraqs problem unless if you dispose of its current goverment. But dont just dispose and than leave like you done in the past, else things are just going back to the begining of the loop.

As mentioned before on this thread about how big corporations control our lives these days, it is a true fact and I dont think it is going to change for a long time. Corporations control goverments of many countries these days, including the US. The fact is if someone is going to work their arses of for me to wear a good pair of $90 Nike shoes, I certainly hope they have as a good standard of living as I do. If they dont than I am just as guilty and shouldnt ever consider stating my opinion. For this fact I wear no brand shoes that are made in some factory here in Australia.

Regards
Tuga the Sunless Troll
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Postby Sarvis » Wed Feb 13, 2002 1:20 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B> If laos does not want to impose western style human rights standards, who are we or anyone else to demand it of them? If you have a problem with Nike using labor from that country, buy from a different company. Shrug. Apparently the deal is good for the people working in those factories, otherwise they wouldn't...

Corth

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They have little choice in the matter. For them it's the difference between eating a loaf of bread every week or starving to death.

I should say that Nike is actually a little better than some other companies in that they pay a bit better. But other companies... well... for an example, one company that was making Simpson's toys had all of the passageways in a factory nearly blocked with boxes, and moset of the fire exits sealed off so they couldn't open. And the superstructure of the building was made with really low grade steel. When the fire broke out almost everyone died, because they couldn't get out of the building except trhough the main entrance, and the cheap steal melted almost immediately... causing the building to collapse much faster than normal. The company made one employee the scapegoat, saying he was smoking and his match started the fire or something like that. Since no legal prosecution really made it to them, they went ahead and re-built the factory in exactly the same way as before... with the same shoddy materials and blocked fire exits.

Now here's the kicker. The same thing also happened in the United States. In New York City... the Triangle Shirtwaist fire. Fire exits were blocked off so that the women who worked there couldn't go outside on breaks, there were no fire escapes on the 7 (I think) story building. When prosecuted, the company succesfully argued (to a jury no less) that the women who had died in the fire did so because they were less intelligent than normal people and they panicked.

So Corth, even the most "high and mighty" nations have a hard time with this sort of thing. Sure, we have inspectors to make sure that buildings are safe. But companies will always have bribes to make sure inspectors say they are safe. Companies may make huge mistakes that get people killed, but they will have teams of lawyers who can blame it on one or 2 people.

And in developing nations, any provided by the company to the government generally takes precedence over human rights anyway...

Bleh, I'm just ranting now I think. I gotta get ready to go to school... :waves:


Sarvis
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Postby Lalisa » Wed Feb 13, 2002 3:03 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zrax:
Tsk tsk, your the one who has mentioned sweden as a part of the EU multiple times on this thread, I bundled nothing, I was just keeping with the spirit. But my comment was meant to be taken half jokingly, and would agree that Sweden is a good model for any small country. Their social democracy is amazingly efficient and their social programs are second to none, while maintaining far lower levels of economic stratification than found in most nations with money of any quantity.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, he did mention Sweden as part of the EU. Funny, because it is Image
He also said he did not want to be bundled up with the eastern and southern parts of Europe. You do realize that the EU is not Europe?
You do realize that the countries in the EU is mostly the western part of Europe (and to some degree the southern part).
So Jegzed can mention Sweeden as part of the EU all he want and still say he doesn't want to be bundled up with the eastern parts.

(/start of rant)
This is one of the things that most often makes me so mad about this whole American/rest of the world conflict.
No offense to you american guys, but most often you have no clue that there is a world outside USA.
I mean, lots of americans can't even put Washington on a map!!
You think Denmark is the capital of Sweden and you think EU is equal to Europe.

When you talk, you always assume all other people are american, you look at me as I'm insane, when I don't know you tv channels or you football teams or whatever.
(/end of rant)

I do know there are a lot of nice and educated americans out there, my apologies to those Image

This thread will not do much else than cause animosity between us as players. Corth, you silly man, stop doing that!

The rest of the world will do fine without the states, but why should and would we?

But I guess I could quote Aliens
"Let's take off and nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure" Image

/lalisa
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Postby Gort » Wed Feb 13, 2002 3:21 pm

One small addendum to the corporations "running" things to a large extent.

Did anyone notice that of the terrorists none of them were from Afghanistan, most of them were from Saudi Arabia (Including our favorite Osama bin-Ladin), most of the funding came from either Saudi Arabia or Egypt. And yet we attacked Afghanistan with no thought of seeking out culprits in either of the other two countries.

Why...

In an article by one of our (US) senators,

http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2001/cr112901.htm

Which he sites specifically oil pipline construction and permission as the prime mover for the focus being on Afghanistan.

I am not saying the strikes there may not have needed to happen anyway, but what about the other countries? Following the $$ would lead to a much different place than Afghanistan. Are they not also responsible?

Someone wrote about the IRA and Britain, I took the statement made by G.W. Bush "we are declaring war on terrorism" to be a sign globally that civilian attacks like that were unacceptable in any country and would be sought out in a similar fashion. Not that terrorists aren't typically willing to die for their cause anyway.

They also don't seem to care much about who around them gets hurt or killed. Behavior like this makes me thing those with that blind a level of commitment perhaps should be committed.

There was a reference earlier about the European countries being in their "golden years" still wanting a say in global policy... well, in the US, guess who actually votes in the elections. That's right, most of those who actually voted were senior citizens. You don't like the policies? VOTE!

Yes corporations have sometimes obscene amounts of power, why? Because no-one who wasn't a stockholder Voted on the issues that granted them more and more freedom. Who were most of the stockholders? Senior citizens looking out for their interests. Who were most of the executives? 45+ yr old people looking out for their interests, and who also voted.

See a pattern there? In a representative government where said reps are elected by the people, only those who actually vote, have a voice. Our forfathers worked soo hard to give us that right, and many since have worked to expand them from only landed white men to all citizens of the country over 18, yet fewer and fewer actually stand up to their Responsibility and not just vote, but pay attention to the issues, become informed, and vote responsibly.

As to the choices we had for President, I wasn't happy with any of them, but this is the first election of my life (I started voting in the '88 election) that I voted for someone actually running. I voted for Nader, even though I can't stand the guy simply to say I didn't want either of the other two in office, and if we could get a strong 3rd party showing, perhaps more who were looking at "the lesser of two evils" would realize there may at least be a "lesser of three evils" in the future.

I am tempted to run in the next election in spite of having no political office experience, but some common sense. Hey, I couldn't do any worse than Uncle Ronny, The Iceman (George senior), Slick Willy, or G.W.B.

I would love to see an option that said "none of the above" on ballots. Do away with the archaic Electoral College, and run a straight populace vote.

Sorry for the rant,


Toplack
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Postby Tesil » Wed Feb 13, 2002 3:58 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gort:
<B>Do away with the archaic Electoral College, and run a straight populace vote.

Sorry for the rant,


Toplack</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If we did away with the electoral college.....how would the shadow government get their puppets into office? Image
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Postby Zrax » Wed Feb 13, 2002 4:12 pm

Yes, he did mention Sweden as part of the EU. Funny, because it is Image

Your kidding me!!

He also said he did not want to be bundled up with the eastern and southern parts of Europe.

Again your grasp on the obvious astounds me.

You do realize that the EU is not Europe?

I was under the impression they renamed the continent EU to be trendy.


You do realize that the countries in the EU is mostly the western part of Europe (and to some degree the southern part).

No shit, WW1 and WW2 countries, re: europe trouble resolving their own conflicts.


So Jegzed can mention Sweeden as part of the EU all he want and still say he doesn't want to be bundled up with the eastern parts.

Europeans using something only when it suits their purpose, I refuse to believe it!

(/start of rant)

ooooooOOooOo

This is one of the things that most often makes me so mad about this whole American/rest of the world conflict.
No offense to you american guys, but most often you have no clue that there is a world outside USA.

Ah the sorrows of a self sufficient economy, woe is us. We know your there we just dont need you.

I mean, lots of americans can't even put Washington on a map!!

The state or DC. Lots of Europeans can't read a paragraph in context.

You think Denmark is the capital of Sweden and you think EU is equal to Europe.

I thought that I thought it was Stockholm, but you must be right. I can pick both of them out on a map too!

EU is the European Union it obviously has nothing to do with Europe right..

When you talk, you always assume all other people are american, you look at me as I'm insane, when I don't know you tv channels or you football teams or whatever.

Most people I encounter are American. The tv channel and football team is a male/female issue not American/Euro issue.

(/end of rant)

I do know there are a lot of nice and educated americans out there, my apologies to those Image

Whew, for a second there I thought this whole world leading economy, largest superpower thing was a fluke.

This thread will not do much else than cause animosity between us as players. Corth, you silly man, stop doing that!

Its fun too.

The rest of the world will do fine without the states, but why should and would we?

Hows your German.


But I guess I could quote Aliens
"Let's take off and nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure" Image


But I guess i could quote Snatch
"Your shrinking and so are your balls. You lack vision. Dicks aren't really clever. They smell some pussy and want a piece of the action. You thought you smelled some good old pussy and brought your two little faggot balls along for a good ole time. But your mistaken. There's no pussy here, just a dose that will make you wish you were born a woman. And the fact that your guns say replica and mine says Desert Eagle .50 should precipitate your balls into shrinking along with your presence. Now FUCK OFF!!"
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Postby Corth » Wed Feb 13, 2002 4:16 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarvis:
They have little choice in the matter. For them it's the difference between eating a loaf of bread every week or starving to death.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So the people of Laos would starve to death if not for the pay they receive from these evil corporations... shouldn't we be thanking the corporations for giving the people of this impoverished nation a chance to work and not starve? What do the multitude of charities that help people in such countries do? They go out and give starving people bread. So Nike is being charitable? Does it really matter if Nike has a profit motive when they pay these people to come work for them? (assuming they are working there willingly.. if not, thats an entirely other case)

Corth
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Postby Lalisa » Wed Feb 13, 2002 4:36 pm

Zrax, your wit amased me.

Are you always this mean? Thanks for ruining my day.

I'm really not sure this mud is worth the trouble.
*boggle*

/lalisa

ps: Can't wait to get raped again by you again Zrax.
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Postby fildur » Wed Feb 13, 2002 4:48 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by muma:
<B>
*ROFL* fildur india is an old country. it's pakistan and bangladesh that are the newer countries :P :P jeeeeeez</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*mock, mock, mock, mock*
a country isnt as old as the land its on, muma, or is it? in that case poland would be of post wwii, we wouldnt want to agree on that now, would we?

ok, so whats the point with the comment in the firts place:
well, since the americans one meets online (i just dont know about americans in general) tend to take an extremely etnocentric pow and somehow think that the american myth about america is some general truth that all ppl around the world agrees on (one of the myths is that the us is a young country), i would like to break that myth. (don blame me for bad english tho, learned to write english from mudders Image) anyway, even tho i like hamburgers and r&r, i just cant take it when we live in the pax americum. american troops belong in america, stay there.../fil
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Postby Zrax » Wed Feb 13, 2002 4:48 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Lalisa:
<B>Zrax, your wit amased me.

Are you always this mean? Thanks for ruining my day.

I'm really not sure this mud is worth the trouble.
*boggle*

/lalisa

ps: Can't wait to get raped again by you again Zrax.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its a controvercial thread... you posted basically that I was stupid and everything I said was wrong, and expected what? a daisy?

Ruined you day? over this? Well it was not my intention but oh well.

The mud and the general discussion board are 2 seperate entities, don't quit the mud, just quit posting on controvercial subjects if your self esteem is this fragile.

Sarcastic, yeah,
Mean, possibly
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Postby Sarvis » Wed Feb 13, 2002 4:50 pm

They might as well be slaves Corth. They are getting enough money to feed themselves, but not to educate themselves or their children, nor to keep themselves clean and healthy. They have the illusion of freedom, without any of the actual privileges. And by privileges I mean things that most humans need to survive.
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Postby Jegzed » Wed Feb 13, 2002 4:53 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zrax:
<B> Sarcastic, yeah,
Mean, possibly
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are an EVIL TROLL!
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Postby Corth » Wed Feb 13, 2002 5:19 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarvis:
<B>They might as well be slaves Corth. They are getting enough money to feed themselves, but not to educate themselves or their children, nor to keep themselves clean and healthy. They have the illusion of freedom, without any of the actual privileges. And by privileges I mean things that most humans need to survive.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

but the alternative is starving to death right? Or perhaps receiving charity from people living in wealthy countries.

Heh, conditions have been bad like this in all countries that were in the initial stages of industrialization. I think id rather see the money that I give to charity goto people who are starving and don't even have the option of working at the local nike factory for their bread. They're in worse shape imho.

Corth
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Postby Lalisa » Wed Feb 13, 2002 5:24 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zrax:
<B> Its a controvercial thread... you posted basically that I was stupid and everything I said was wrong, and expected what? a daisy?

Ruined you day? over this? Well it was not my intention but oh well.

The mud and the general discussion board are 2 seperate entities, don't quit the mud, just quit posting on controvercial subjects if your self esteem is this fragile.

Sarcastic, yeah,
Mean, possibly

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. I never said you were wrong or stupid. Please read it again, I never said you were stupid. It did look like you were thinking Europa and EU were the same. I wanted to correct you on that, because it is wrong.
Good, that you know differently, but one couldn't see that in your post.

2. Oh dear, yes I'm a sensitive person and I'm female. Does this make it right to hurt me?
Just because my skin isn't thick, doesn't mean people have a right to hurt me.
Why should I be a thick-skinned evil bastard to post here?
Why can't we have a decent tone with each other?

Of course I mix the mud and this board. This is one of the few places I can get information and therefore I read it.
People post logs here about the mud and again it's hard to split these two things.
I would have a hell of hard time grouping with you now and I'm sure you would dislike me also.

And in that regard, who are your charachers?
Just to avoid further complication.

/sobby girl
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Postby Ilshadrial » Wed Feb 13, 2002 5:52 pm

Why would you being FEMALE mean shit here?

This is a general thread, not mud content, don't read it if you are going to take it personally.

Anyway, The USA deploys its troops for various reasons, I think the main reason being to protect US foreign investements and interests. Afterall, after giving so much money to third world countries, I am sure the US would like to protect their investments/Allies(?).

I am glad some of you are from passive countries, how much TAX do you guys pay on a percentage of income? I am dying to know.

Ilshad
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Postby Kuurg » Wed Feb 13, 2002 5:57 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by fildur:
anyway, even tho i like hamburgers and r&r, i just cant take it when we live in the pax americum. american troops belong in america, stay there.../fil</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pax Americana.

When troops from whatever enlightened nation you live in can serve to ensure none of their global neighbors can abrogate the rights of another nation's people, I'm sure the US will do just that.

------------------
·•Kuurg•·
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Postby Kuurg » Wed Feb 13, 2002 6:01 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Lalisa:
<B>
And in that regard, who are your charachers?
Just to avoid further complication.

/sobby girl

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

zrax is just mean-spirited. Almost every post he makes is loaded with vitriolic rhetoric. He's not stupid or ignorant, but he isn't very socially well-adjusted Image
he *IS* a troll, though, so it's ok.

------------------
·•Kuurg•·
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Postby Sarvis » Wed Feb 13, 2002 6:02 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B> but the alternative is starving to death right? Or perhaps receiving charity from people living in wealthy countries.

Heh, conditions have been bad like this in all countries that were in the initial stages of industrialization. I think id rather see the money that I give to charity goto people who are starving and don't even have the option of working at the local nike factory for their bread. They're in worse shape imho.

Corth
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right, there's no third options here at all. Like, perhaps, Nike treats it's slaves like actual humans and gives them a decent wage and helps them obtain healthcare? No, that wouldn't work.. it would slightly cut into their insanely high profit margin. It costs them less than $5 to make a shoe (most of that is materials), they charge us upwards of $100. They could triple the rate they pay factory workers and still net a 1000% profit.

I don't know why you are bringing charity into this. My entire point is taht it is not our nation who's really at fault in these things, it is our companies. They should be doing more to help the people that their profits are based upon, instead of just throwing them away like machines who have worn out their usefulness. I don't think we should be giving charity to any of these people, but we should be able to give them decent jobs.

Lalisa: Don't let stuff said on this BBS get you all upset. Some people can just be rude, or pigheaded. And things said in posts/emails can easily be misinterpreted. There was even an article about it in the paper the other day... apparently a lot of relationships and such are being hurt because people misunderstand things in emails. :shrug: I may strongly disagree with Corth, but so what? It's a debate... I'd still group with him in the mud... well, I would if I was about 20 levels higher... heh.

Sarvis

------------------
Every problem in the universe can be solved by finding the right long-haired prettyboy and beating the crap out of him.
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Postby Mplor » Wed Feb 13, 2002 6:25 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
A global community where the voice of Iran, Iraq, and North Korea, or for that matter Al Queda, have equal power with democratic and free countries, is simply [b]perverse.
[/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Corth, I said that each individual, regardless of nationality, has a natural right to be governed by his consent. I then said that it's in the interest of the United States to consult our allies and the democratic nations of the world. I said that we should foster a global community where everyone's voice is heard. By 'everyone' I think you heard 'every nation' - but I meant everyone: every individual no matter where they live. It is in our best interests to act in concert with nations that have legitimate representative governments, and promote inclusion through democratic reform everywhere else (instead of funding regimes like the Saudis). Illegitimate governments can hardly be said to speak for their people.

Everyone: You can say that you think someone is wrong without insulting them - try it. Likewise, just because someone disagrees with your opinion doesn't mean you should take it as a personal affront.

Mp
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Feb 13, 2002 6:37 pm

Lalisa,

Don't let the BBS get to you, just develop a thicker skin. These guys are all assholes at heart. Who was that one chick who was scared away... Shaylarose? She was very nice, but she absolutely could not stand being contradicted in any way, and took it very personally when people told her to stop acting like she would break if whispered to wrong, and to stop trying to cushion everything she said with "I know I'm new here and nothing I say matters" after she hit level 40-something and had posted over 100 times. I'm a very nice person normally, but I helped make her feel the way she did, I told her to stop using posts as her own personal attention getting forum. If you post here, expect it to be replied to in manners which aren't always nice. This is a public forum, and you can expect the public to respond to your posts in any manner in which they deem suitable. If you expect people to respond to your posts in only specific manners, then you're going to be very disappointed on a regular basis. What you consider to be insulting might seem to be only a spirited rebuttal to somebody else, it's all in the way you choose to perceive it. Besided, if you quit participating in things every time somebody talks to you in a way you don't care for, you'd be quitting a lot of stuff, a lot of the time.

Be prepared for the flaming when it comes...

I fully supported Bush's decisions when it came to the war efforts. The only thing I'm seriously disappointed with so far is the way he used the sensationalism of the September 11th attack and the ensuing war to delay and downplay the whole Enron affair. He hid behind what was a great tragedy for our nation while a controversy brewed which drops him right in the hotseat. What are they gonna end up calling this... Energygate?

[This message has been edited by Ashiwi (edited 02-13-2002).]
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Postby Ilshadrial » Wed Feb 13, 2002 6:42 pm

Ooooooooo EnergyGate is very catchy!
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Postby Eadgydd » Wed Feb 13, 2002 7:04 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gort:
<B>One small addendum to the corporations "running" things to a large extent.

Yes corporations have sometimes obscene amounts of power, why? Because no-one who wasn't a stockholder Voted on the issues that granted them more and more freedom. Who were most of the stockholders? Senior citizens looking out for their interests. Who were most of the executives? 45+ yr old people looking out for their interests, and who also voted.

See a pattern there? In a representative government where said reps are elected by the people, only those who actually vote, have a voice. Our forfathers worked soo hard to give us that right, and many since have worked to expand them from only landed white men to all citizens of the country over 18, yet fewer and fewer actually stand up to their Responsibility and not just vote, but pay attention to the issues, become informed, and vote responsibly.

Toplack</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I vote regularly, so I feel I have something to say about this. First off, I, like anyone else who votes, vote for a candidate, and not for specific laws with the occasional exception of California state ballot propositions. No one who wasn't a stockholder voted on the issues that made corporations stronger because the issues were voted on in the House and the Senate; they are all stockholders, and they all waged expensive campaigns. We may have voted on the legislators, who can say anything they want to get elected, but the fact is that in the everyday business of things their votes belong to the people who bought and paid for them. I have far more confidence in local elections, but local government has nothing to say about national and international corporate laws and policies.

This is not to say that all politicians are crooked. As a matter of fact I'm sure that many of them think they are doing the honorable thing by 'paying back' their contributors. That is the problem; most elected officials act as though they are more beholden to the people who paid for their campaigns than to the people who voted for them. That is why so many people do not vote... they feel there's no point, and although I vote, I understand their sentiment.

I'd be interested to know how those of you outside the US feel about your elections and the power of your votes.

As for people in Laos being benifitted by the sweatshops there... nevermind, not gonna even comment on that.
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Postby Zagaz » Wed Feb 13, 2002 7:20 pm

Originally posted by Thurg:

the americans were the only ones to even imagine a united nations and now we are getting screwed by it.

As a Canadian that burns my ass in so many ways. I have been reluctant to wade into this, but enough is enough!! Canada was SUCH a major player in the formation of the UN, and especially the peace keeping forces. Hell they were practically invented by The Right Honourable Lester B. Pearson, who won a Nobel Peace Prize for his actions in settling the dispute when The Brits screwed up in Egypt and convinced the Isrealies to attack as well, which only resulted in a land grab.

To this day Canada is still a big player when it comes to foreign aid and commitment to peace keeping missions, despite the lack of military power we have. I am happy that Canada has been cutting back it's military. you might say I am living under a rock or in a fantasty world, but we lack the courage to put away our weapons and settle things rationally, not like a bunch of chest thumping testosterone overdosed gorillas!!


*SIGH*

I could go on for pages on this, but I am at work and I am really pissed off now by the arrogance of some of the previous posts, so I have to calm down.....

The grim fact is that we prepare for war like
precocious giants and for peace like retarded pygmies. -Lester Pearson
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Postby Taegost » Wed Feb 13, 2002 7:21 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Lalisa:
<B>(/start of rant)
This is one of the things that most often makes me so mad about this whole American/rest of the world conflict.
No offense to you american guys, but most often you have no clue that there is a world outside USA.
I mean, lots of americans can't even put Washington on a map!!
You think Denmark is the capital of Sweden and you think EU is equal to Europe.

When you talk, you always assume all other people are american, you look at me as I'm insane, when I don't know you tv channels or you football teams or whatever.
(/end of rant)

/lalisa</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And that is why I will not post on this thread other then to say this much (And believe me, it pains me to do so):

I will not post my opinions on here.
Why, you ask?
Because while I have 0 tolerance for ignorance as a whole, I realize there are some things I am ignorant about, and when I come across those things, I do what I can to rectify that.
I knew the EU wasn't Europe, but I don't know much about it, so I can't post intelligently on that.
I don't know the capitol of Sweden, altho if the women are as hot as everyone thinks they are, I want to live there <g>
I have never been outside of the country, so I can't say what our true, fundamental differences are (F*** laws, they mean nothing about a population, they are made by ignorant people for people they feel are ALL inferior and ignorant, while they piss rose water and their shit don't stink)
I don't know much about the UN except that their HQ is in New York (Or did it move?)
I do know that one of the buildings that went down on Sept. 11th belonged to CitiGroup, whom I work for.
I do know about India being "owned" by Great Britain up until recently.
I don't know why we didn't kill Hussein when we had the chance.
I don't know why the F*** people are so GODDAMN ignorant when it comes to Iraq and their GODDAMN policies, they harbor nuclear weapon, have NOT allowed UN officials in since they signed the FRIGGIN' treaty that said if at ANY TIME they disallow inspectors, THERE WILL BE PUNISHMENT.
WTF don't people realize that?
Can you tell it's an EXTREMELY sore point with me?
Or is everyone ignoring the fact that they broke an INTERNATIONAL treaty, and we're still trying to smoothtalk them.
I think Bush is right sending Cheney in there next month to gather support, but whether we get it or not, here's the bottom line:
KILL THE BASTARD.
That is the only thing I have an opinion on that I will post, because I have followed it since it happened when I was 10.
But there, I posted something I'm not totally ignorant about.
So, if you're ignorant, like me, don't say something stupid or not at all thought out to show it.

Would you like fries with that?

------------------
Taegost, The one and ONLY STUPER DRUID(tm)
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Postby fildur » Wed Feb 13, 2002 8:01 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kuurg:
<B> When troops from whatever enlightened nation you live in can serve to ensure none of their global neighbors can abrogate the rights of another nation's people, I'm sure the US will do just that.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

myth#2:
the us troops around the world are there to protect the innocent.

as pointed out by several ppl in this thread american troops really do protect the interests of american companies.

ill just mension one of the examples...

september 11

1973

santiago de chile......


this just pointed out as somekind of cowboyish "what comes arround goes around" freak of historical dates, not as a defence of any osamas or talebans. id even say that the attacks on afghanistan might be the first justifiable us foreign intervension since ww2. /fil
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Postby Taegost » Wed Feb 13, 2002 8:04 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by fildur:
<B>
this just pointed out as somekind of cowboyish "what comes arround goes around" freak of historical dates, not as a defence of any osamas or talebans. id even say that the attacks on afghanistan might be the first justifiable us foreign intervension since ww2. /fil</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Removing the threat of thermonuclear warfare doesn't justify our presence?
Well, hell, if that's the case, sign me up for Vault 13!
Or I'll just change my name to Harold...

------------------
Taegost, The one and ONLY STUPER DRUID(tm)
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Postby Ilshadrial » Wed Feb 13, 2002 8:24 pm

HRM! What would the world be without the United States, destroyed already?

Or maybe you would be speaking some sort of Arabic lingo by now and praying 5 times a day?

Ilshad

And Mentioning Septemeber 11th is BAD TASTE. That had nothing to do with company interests around the world, that was an ACT of WAR.

I had friends from my MBA graduating class die in the building.
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Postby fildur » Wed Feb 13, 2002 8:45 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ilshadrial:
<B>
And Mentioning Septemeber 11th is BAD TASTE. That had nothing to do with company interests around the world, that was an ACT of WAR.

I had friends from my MBA graduating class die in the building.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

read again, i said it was a freak of historical dates, i do _really_not_in_any_way_ defend the attacks on NY.

this doesnt prevent the murder of allende being a typical example of us foreign affairs at practice.../fil
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Postby fildur » Wed Feb 13, 2002 8:54 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Taegost:
<B> Removing the threat of thermonuclear warfare doesn't justify our presence?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
what alien from what planet told ye that ye did that?/fil

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