If he manage to get this through congress, the he's done more good for this planet than anyone else the last decades.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/750150.asp?0cv=CB20
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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
George Bush RULES!
Wow, thats an enormous amount of money that it would require. The only way its justifiable, especially in this economy, is if they expect some of the research and ultimately the technology to be applicable to the military. It might have something to do with the revived space defense initiative? In any case I'm sure thats the angle they're looking at.
Corth
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Goddamned slippery mage.
Corth
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Goddamned slippery mage.
We NEED to get into the space to survive as a species. And the sooner we do it, the better.
Nasa is spending 1 billion dollar over five years as a start.
The total of $45 billion dollar for the entire plan sounds a huge amount of money, but lets put it in comparison.
Its not 45 billion yearly, its over a long period of time. (Five years for first propulsion system, etc..)
The US ANNUAL (as in yearly) military budget is OVER 300 billion dollars.
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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
Nasa is spending 1 billion dollar over five years as a start.
The total of $45 billion dollar for the entire plan sounds a huge amount of money, but lets put it in comparison.
Its not 45 billion yearly, its over a long period of time. (Five years for first propulsion system, etc..)
The US ANNUAL (as in yearly) military budget is OVER 300 billion dollars.
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/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
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Xisiqomelir
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Arilin Nydelahar
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jaznolg:
They should hit up Bill Gates for the money and name the technology after him. *nod me*</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Nah. If they did that, he'd make them run Windows, and the shuttles would never take off and land right, and would have tendancies to blow up in mid-air.
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-Arilin Nydelahar
...Knowledge is power, and knowledge of life and death brings power over all beings, living and unliving.
They should hit up Bill Gates for the money and name the technology after him. *nod me*</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Nah. If they did that, he'd make them run Windows, and the shuttles would never take off and land right, and would have tendancies to blow up in mid-air.
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-Arilin Nydelahar
...Knowledge is power, and knowledge of life and death brings power over all beings, living and unliving.
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Arilin Nydelahar
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jegzed:
<B>If he manage to get this through congress, the he's done more good for this planet than anyone else the last decades.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/750150.asp?0cv=CB20
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I fully concur, and this really feels like soemwhat of a boon, especially since i'll be studying astronomy in the near future, and getting some sort of degree eventually. :P
Another good article.
http://space.com/businesstechnology/technology/nuclear_power_030117.html
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-Arilin Nydelahar
...Knowledge is power, and knowledge of life and death brings power over all beings, living and unliving.
<B>If he manage to get this through congress, the he's done more good for this planet than anyone else the last decades.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/750150.asp?0cv=CB20
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I fully concur, and this really feels like soemwhat of a boon, especially since i'll be studying astronomy in the near future, and getting some sort of degree eventually. :P
Another good article.
http://space.com/businesstechnology/technology/nuclear_power_030117.html
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-Arilin Nydelahar
...Knowledge is power, and knowledge of life and death brings power over all beings, living and unliving.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jaznolg:
They should hit up Bill Gates for the money and name the technology after him. *nod me*</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
dude, if we used any sort of technology Bill gates provides. we're all doomed.
Launching Sequence Countdown...
10
9
8
Blue screen of death
Rockets detonating
besides. y does it have to be space? there is hugeee potential below the sea.
They should hit up Bill Gates for the money and name the technology after him. *nod me*</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
dude, if we used any sort of technology Bill gates provides. we're all doomed.
Launching Sequence Countdown...
10
9
8
Blue screen of death
Rockets detonating
besides. y does it have to be space? there is hugeee potential below the sea.
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Arilin Nydelahar
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Iktar:
<B> dude, if we used any sort of technology Bill gates provides. we're all doomed.
Launching Sequence Countdown...
10
9
8
Blue screen of death
Rockets detonating
besides. y does it have to be space? there is hugeee potential below the sea.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
iktar = little mermaid?
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-Arilin Nydelahar
...Knowledge is power, and knowledge of life and death brings power over all beings, living and unliving.
<B> dude, if we used any sort of technology Bill gates provides. we're all doomed.
Launching Sequence Countdown...
10
9
8
Blue screen of death
Rockets detonating
besides. y does it have to be space? there is hugeee potential below the sea.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
iktar = little mermaid?
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-Arilin Nydelahar
...Knowledge is power, and knowledge of life and death brings power over all beings, living and unliving.
Firstly, let me say I'm very proud to have been able to see and touch the first MARS LANDER probe, one of only perhaps 100 people in the world. My father helped design parts for it, and though the mission wasn't a complete success, it laid the foundation perhaps for this initiative.
Secondly, I don't think the US will be funding a project like this alone. I believe a concerted effort will be made to get money/parts made by different countries to help with the overall cost.
Indeed it will be interesting to see what happens.
Twinshadow
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Kribble tells you 'everytime I've seen you die it was doing something cool or trying to save someone's ass... die away!'
Secondly, I don't think the US will be funding a project like this alone. I believe a concerted effort will be made to get money/parts made by different countries to help with the overall cost.
Indeed it will be interesting to see what happens.
Twinshadow
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Kribble tells you 'everytime I've seen you die it was doing something cool or trying to save someone's ass... die away!'
Space, ho...
Ive been a huge advocate of going to mars since I was like 12, but for a long time with all the wars going on here on earth, nobodys really been talking about... _IF_ said president gets off his ass and does something before hes up for re-election, I MIGHT just vote republican (holy shit, did I just say that?). Im always so torn. I agree with half of what the democrats say and half of what the republicans say.
If only we could combine the democrats ability to do math with the republicans ability to lead, we'd have a winner.
Anyway, im rambling. Yeah, go space program!
G
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Auril tells you 'Yes, we're plotting the destruction of all that is holy - and unholy, too. Just to be thorough.'
Ive been a huge advocate of going to mars since I was like 12, but for a long time with all the wars going on here on earth, nobodys really been talking about... _IF_ said president gets off his ass and does something before hes up for re-election, I MIGHT just vote republican (holy shit, did I just say that?). Im always so torn. I agree with half of what the democrats say and half of what the republicans say.
If only we could combine the democrats ability to do math with the republicans ability to lead, we'd have a winner.
Anyway, im rambling. Yeah, go space program!
G
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Auril tells you 'Yes, we're plotting the destruction of all that is holy - and unholy, too. Just to be thorough.'
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Arilin Nydelahar:
<B> iktar = little mermaid?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
iktar kinda has a point..why go millions of miles away when there is still a ton of unused real estate here?
But then again, all the land thats unused is also a good point. Nobody wants to live on the north or south pole, there are many many areas that are sparsely populated that people wont live..if they wont move a couple thousand miles, imsure they wont move a few million
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Hibbidy group-says 'you using fkeys or buttons'
Tsaen group-says 'buttons'
Tsaen group-says 'f1 f2'
<B> iktar = little mermaid?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
iktar kinda has a point..why go millions of miles away when there is still a ton of unused real estate here?
But then again, all the land thats unused is also a good point. Nobody wants to live on the north or south pole, there are many many areas that are sparsely populated that people wont live..if they wont move a couple thousand miles, imsure they wont move a few million
------------------
Hibbidy group-says 'you using fkeys or buttons'
Tsaen group-says 'buttons'
Tsaen group-says 'f1 f2'
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Arilin Nydelahar
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ensis:
<B> iktar kinda has a point..why go millions of miles away when there is still a ton of unused real estate here?
But then again, all the land thats unused is also a good point. Nobody wants to live on the north or south pole, there are many many areas that are sparsely populated that people wont live..if they wont move a couple thousand miles, imsure they wont move a few million
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Only problem with that, is as history likes to tell us, when we explore, and find something new to use, we exploit it to the point of ruining the surrounding enviroment, or killing off species, or just making them near extintion.
Well, that and if we go to far in the ocean, we'll wake up Godzilla.
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-Arilin Nydelahar
...Knowledge is power, and knowledge of life and death brings power over all beings, living and unliving.
<B> iktar kinda has a point..why go millions of miles away when there is still a ton of unused real estate here?
But then again, all the land thats unused is also a good point. Nobody wants to live on the north or south pole, there are many many areas that are sparsely populated that people wont live..if they wont move a couple thousand miles, imsure they wont move a few million
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Only problem with that, is as history likes to tell us, when we explore, and find something new to use, we exploit it to the point of ruining the surrounding enviroment, or killing off species, or just making them near extintion.
Well, that and if we go to far in the ocean, we'll wake up Godzilla.
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-Arilin Nydelahar
...Knowledge is power, and knowledge of life and death brings power over all beings, living and unliving.
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Guest
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ensis:
<B> iktar kinda has a point..why go millions of miles away when there is still a ton of unused real estate here?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think Jegzed said it best in his 2nd post, very simply put if we don't go millions of miles into space our species is doomed to extinction.
And yes the sooner we do it the better.
Mars is a stepping stone much like the space stations are. We need to start reaching out in our solar system before we can ever consider the remote possibility of getting life to any other star. Our sun will burn out and if we haven't gotten off this system by then it's good bye humans.
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Azuth God of Wizardry and Majiks
Miax : (51) [ Im totally addicted to the mud again.. ]
<B> iktar kinda has a point..why go millions of miles away when there is still a ton of unused real estate here?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think Jegzed said it best in his 2nd post, very simply put if we don't go millions of miles into space our species is doomed to extinction.
And yes the sooner we do it the better.
Mars is a stepping stone much like the space stations are. We need to start reaching out in our solar system before we can ever consider the remote possibility of getting life to any other star. Our sun will burn out and if we haven't gotten off this system by then it's good bye humans.
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Azuth God of Wizardry and Majiks
Miax : (51) [ Im totally addicted to the mud again.. ]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ensis:
<B> iktar kinda has a point..why go millions of miles away when there is still a ton of unused real estate here?
But then again, all the land thats unused is also a good point. Nobody wants to live on the north or south pole, there are many many areas that are sparsely populated that people wont live..if they wont move a couple thousand miles, imsure they wont move a few million
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I haven't seen such an ignorant citizen of the world for a very long time.
Hi.. this planet is over populated and cannot sustain exponential growth for much longer. Less than half of people do not realize this fact. More than half do nothing about it.
The only thing that might justify people not caring that there are going to be more than twice as many people on this planet and wars over food and land in the near future might be another planet to put people on. With the technology discussed it would be more conceiveable that the human race would be able to find and travel to another planet that can sustain life in the distant future some time. Possibly with better technology discovered from the experimental technology that has been discussed.
Earth is going to become a very unstable planet for life regardless of the possibility that humans might destroy its inhabitablility before that happens. Either way, the sooner we learn how to travel away from this rock to another rock we can abuse an destroy, all the better.
<B> iktar kinda has a point..why go millions of miles away when there is still a ton of unused real estate here?
But then again, all the land thats unused is also a good point. Nobody wants to live on the north or south pole, there are many many areas that are sparsely populated that people wont live..if they wont move a couple thousand miles, imsure they wont move a few million
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I haven't seen such an ignorant citizen of the world for a very long time.
Hi.. this planet is over populated and cannot sustain exponential growth for much longer. Less than half of people do not realize this fact. More than half do nothing about it.
The only thing that might justify people not caring that there are going to be more than twice as many people on this planet and wars over food and land in the near future might be another planet to put people on. With the technology discussed it would be more conceiveable that the human race would be able to find and travel to another planet that can sustain life in the distant future some time. Possibly with better technology discovered from the experimental technology that has been discussed.
Earth is going to become a very unstable planet for life regardless of the possibility that humans might destroy its inhabitablility before that happens. Either way, the sooner we learn how to travel away from this rock to another rock we can abuse an destroy, all the better.
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Guest
My two bits. (am I american or not, go ahead and label me any way you want)
Getting into space isnt going to save the species, nor is it a necessity for survival against competitive human races on this planet.
A:The only nation with even close to this capability is also the only nation which is truly able to threaten everybody else with economic/military/nuclear destruction. Namely, us. (yeah, if your not american, just guess who i mean by us). So we americans dont need to be in space to be competitive, they/we need to be in space to be EVEN MORE competitive. Which is basically making this planet a shitball for everybody else. (tho, we/them are certaintly NOT the only ones wasting SO much effort on destructive projects)
B:The next closest shitball of a planet is like LIGHTYEARS away, and we would need a long long long time to develop our puny-not-even-extra-solarsystem-technology to even THINK about going there, so dont waste your life on pipe dreams. Basically, if we dont use resources to solve problems here, we wont even get the CHANCE to try our wonderful philosophies out on a new world; we will be long since dead before then.
THE POINT: Stop wasting money on destructive policies (space travel is cool, stop building nuclear bombs and you will have saved enough money to fund the space sciences) and start spending on things like world democratic congresses (UN...why wont america pay its bills to this world democracy?) and other programs that HELP people, instead of developing kewl new weapon systems (F-22, which we need cuz we are selling our F-16's to 3rd world military dictators right now) and the like.
Need prove of gross abuse of world democracy and support of destructive behaviours?
UN vote, to ban the creation and testing of NEW weapons of mass destruction, 1993.
153 nations vs. 2 nations. The two nations opposed to such a ban, USA (hey, its not *us*, its our politicians) and Israel.
Now THAT is positive hope for the world, coming from the worlds best democracy and leader on the war on other people who might also develop weapons of mass destruction like we did.
Getting into space isnt going to save the species, nor is it a necessity for survival against competitive human races on this planet.
A:The only nation with even close to this capability is also the only nation which is truly able to threaten everybody else with economic/military/nuclear destruction. Namely, us. (yeah, if your not american, just guess who i mean by us). So we americans dont need to be in space to be competitive, they/we need to be in space to be EVEN MORE competitive. Which is basically making this planet a shitball for everybody else. (tho, we/them are certaintly NOT the only ones wasting SO much effort on destructive projects)
B:The next closest shitball of a planet is like LIGHTYEARS away, and we would need a long long long time to develop our puny-not-even-extra-solarsystem-technology to even THINK about going there, so dont waste your life on pipe dreams. Basically, if we dont use resources to solve problems here, we wont even get the CHANCE to try our wonderful philosophies out on a new world; we will be long since dead before then.
THE POINT: Stop wasting money on destructive policies (space travel is cool, stop building nuclear bombs and you will have saved enough money to fund the space sciences) and start spending on things like world democratic congresses (UN...why wont america pay its bills to this world democracy?) and other programs that HELP people, instead of developing kewl new weapon systems (F-22, which we need cuz we are selling our F-16's to 3rd world military dictators right now) and the like.
Need prove of gross abuse of world democracy and support of destructive behaviours?
UN vote, to ban the creation and testing of NEW weapons of mass destruction, 1993.
153 nations vs. 2 nations. The two nations opposed to such a ban, USA (hey, its not *us*, its our politicians) and Israel.
Now THAT is positive hope for the world, coming from the worlds best democracy and leader on the war on other people who might also develop weapons of mass destruction like we did.
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Xisiqomelir
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by grorrakk:
<B>
B:The next closest shitball of a planet is like LIGHTYEARS away, and we would need a long long long time to develop our puny-not-even-extra-solarsystem-technology to even THINK about going there, so dont waste your life on pipe dreams.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You have "planet-fixation". It is perfectly feasible to create colony cylinders of sufficient dimesions to provide Earth-identical gravity and environments. Why go to all the trouble of terraforming?
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Thus spake Shevarash: "Invokers are not going to be removed"
<B>
B:The next closest shitball of a planet is like LIGHTYEARS away, and we would need a long long long time to develop our puny-not-even-extra-solarsystem-technology to even THINK about going there, so dont waste your life on pipe dreams.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You have "planet-fixation". It is perfectly feasible to create colony cylinders of sufficient dimesions to provide Earth-identical gravity and environments. Why go to all the trouble of terraforming?
------------------
Thus spake Shevarash: "Invokers are not going to be removed"
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Guest
-
Xisiqomelir
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by grorrakk:
Define please, feasible.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Feasible adj :
Capable of being accomplished or brought about; possible
Design goals:
An extraterrestrial habitat with the following features:
- 1 g gravity
- Earth-identical atmosphere
- 24 hr day/night cycle
- Real weather and climate
- 100% protection from solar and cosmic radiation
- "Autarky" ie purely autonomous with regards to food, water and oxygen
Dimensions of an O'Neill Island Three type space colony (A Hemispherical-capped cylinder, picture first link of my previous post):
Diameter: 4 miles
Length: 20 miles
Composition:
Steel
Aluminium
Glass
Silicone
Composition of lunar soil (source of materials):
42% oxygen
21% silicon
13% iron
8% calcium
7% aluminium
6% magnesium
3% other
Solar energy levels at the Lagrange points (main thermal/electrical power source): 1.4 kW/m^2
Solar energy levels, Earth surface (for comparison): 0.18 kW/m^2
Estimated start-to-finish cost of construction: $1 trillion US
Estimated value of solar energy sales to Earth per year: $100 billion US
Cost of US persian gulf oil imports in 2000: $20 billion US
It's been "feasible" since 1976, and it keeps getting more so.
People just have to commit.
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Thus spake Shevarash: "Invokers are not going to be removed"
Define please, feasible.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Feasible adj :
Capable of being accomplished or brought about; possible
Design goals:
An extraterrestrial habitat with the following features:
- 1 g gravity
- Earth-identical atmosphere
- 24 hr day/night cycle
- Real weather and climate
- 100% protection from solar and cosmic radiation
- "Autarky" ie purely autonomous with regards to food, water and oxygen
Dimensions of an O'Neill Island Three type space colony (A Hemispherical-capped cylinder, picture first link of my previous post):
Diameter: 4 miles
Length: 20 miles
Composition:
Steel
Aluminium
Glass
Silicone
Composition of lunar soil (source of materials):
42% oxygen
21% silicon
13% iron
8% calcium
7% aluminium
6% magnesium
3% other
Solar energy levels at the Lagrange points (main thermal/electrical power source): 1.4 kW/m^2
Solar energy levels, Earth surface (for comparison): 0.18 kW/m^2
Estimated start-to-finish cost of construction: $1 trillion US
Estimated value of solar energy sales to Earth per year: $100 billion US
Cost of US persian gulf oil imports in 2000: $20 billion US
It's been "feasible" since 1976, and it keeps getting more so.
People just have to commit.------------------
Thus spake Shevarash: "Invokers are not going to be removed"
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Guest
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Xisiqomelir:
<B>It's been "feasible" since 1976, and it keeps getting more so. People just have to commit.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My impression is that we still can't engineer a mostly self-sustaining ecology/atmosphere. While a large-size space habitat doesn't need to be a perfectly closed system, it needs to be close to that, otherwise it is not going to be economically sustainable in the long run. Shipping food and water up from the earth would be, pun intended, astronomically expensive.
<B>It's been "feasible" since 1976, and it keeps getting more so.
People just have to commit.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My impression is that we still can't engineer a mostly self-sustaining ecology/atmosphere. While a large-size space habitat doesn't need to be a perfectly closed system, it needs to be close to that, otherwise it is not going to be economically sustainable in the long run. Shipping food and water up from the earth would be, pun intended, astronomically expensive.
Gurns, you are correct. We have tried to create a closed system and failed. Will we be able to? Sure! However, we (as a world) will eventually be able to travel to other solar systems with "off the self" technology. Right now I am convinced that if we set sail for another inhabitable world not only would it take "forever" to arrive, but enough things would go wrong that everyone would be dead.
The argument was brought up that population growth is exponential. This is not true. Almost everyone agrees that the population will level off eventually. Once that happens, I am positive that the earth will have enough land to support the people and to grow food for the entire population. Now will countries allow that land to be used efficiently? That is a good question. A better question is what about water resources. Already large parts of the USA is having water shortages and it's not going to be getting any better. Are there solutions to that? Sure. More conservation would be a great start (i.e. get rid of everyone watering their lawns). In addition, it is a sure bet that more desalination plants will be built. What is the effect of all of this on the world? Surely the pollution will be higher given the same technology then there would be with less people. I am not sure if overall it will be better or worse though. As bad as many people claim we are now, and I will grant you that are net affect is surely negative, we are much better then we used to be. In the middle part of the industrial evolution people could not see the building across the street on bad days and dozens would die (this information brought to you by a recent friendly PBS program), or think about DDT that we used to toss out with bare hands, or the oil we would spray on the side of the roads to keep down dust.
Now I am all for space exploration, but I would argue that general science is much more important. As general science increases putting a man/woman on Mars becomes not only much more feasible, but cheaper, easier, and cleaner. Is their any great rush to be able to settle the stars as some suggest? No, it will be millions of years before we have to worry about the sun burning out. A more direct threat would be some large space object crashing into earth and there are easier ways to protect us from that then by sending a spaceship off for colonization.
Additionally, I think the argument could easily be made that if we were able to colonize another world we would be putting the survival of the earth at greater risk. Clearly a few select countries would do colonization (actually, I can think of only 2-3 that could really afford to do so if it was possible). Currently if some nasty biological WMD was released it could easily kill the entire world. What is to stop country A, B, or C from doing so if mutual destruction is not ensured?
As for the American bashing…first, the USA has not built a new nuclear bomb in a long time. Additionally, no nuclear tests have been carried out. The USA is continually pushing for arms reduction with USSR. Unfortunately USSR is pushing for the USA to give up additional benefits to them to agree with the reduction of nuclear arms. Furthermore, the push for the F-22 is not about the Air Force facing F-16s. The problem comes in two parts. The number of hours on the air frames for planes in the current inventory and the additional maintenance costs that are associated with this. This translates to new airplanes must be purchased regardless of if it is a new F-22 or old F-16/F-15 before long. Secondly, other countries are pushing ahead with planes that will be so far ahead of what we currently have (check out what the consortium of companies in Europe are developing).
[deleted two more paragraphs of babble…you can thank me latter]
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Marforp / Sasdor / Kaf / Pofas
The argument was brought up that population growth is exponential. This is not true. Almost everyone agrees that the population will level off eventually. Once that happens, I am positive that the earth will have enough land to support the people and to grow food for the entire population. Now will countries allow that land to be used efficiently? That is a good question. A better question is what about water resources. Already large parts of the USA is having water shortages and it's not going to be getting any better. Are there solutions to that? Sure. More conservation would be a great start (i.e. get rid of everyone watering their lawns). In addition, it is a sure bet that more desalination plants will be built. What is the effect of all of this on the world? Surely the pollution will be higher given the same technology then there would be with less people. I am not sure if overall it will be better or worse though. As bad as many people claim we are now, and I will grant you that are net affect is surely negative, we are much better then we used to be. In the middle part of the industrial evolution people could not see the building across the street on bad days and dozens would die (this information brought to you by a recent friendly PBS program), or think about DDT that we used to toss out with bare hands, or the oil we would spray on the side of the roads to keep down dust.
Now I am all for space exploration, but I would argue that general science is much more important. As general science increases putting a man/woman on Mars becomes not only much more feasible, but cheaper, easier, and cleaner. Is their any great rush to be able to settle the stars as some suggest? No, it will be millions of years before we have to worry about the sun burning out. A more direct threat would be some large space object crashing into earth and there are easier ways to protect us from that then by sending a spaceship off for colonization.
Additionally, I think the argument could easily be made that if we were able to colonize another world we would be putting the survival of the earth at greater risk. Clearly a few select countries would do colonization (actually, I can think of only 2-3 that could really afford to do so if it was possible). Currently if some nasty biological WMD was released it could easily kill the entire world. What is to stop country A, B, or C from doing so if mutual destruction is not ensured?
As for the American bashing…first, the USA has not built a new nuclear bomb in a long time. Additionally, no nuclear tests have been carried out. The USA is continually pushing for arms reduction with USSR. Unfortunately USSR is pushing for the USA to give up additional benefits to them to agree with the reduction of nuclear arms. Furthermore, the push for the F-22 is not about the Air Force facing F-16s. The problem comes in two parts. The number of hours on the air frames for planes in the current inventory and the additional maintenance costs that are associated with this. This translates to new airplanes must be purchased regardless of if it is a new F-22 or old F-16/F-15 before long. Secondly, other countries are pushing ahead with planes that will be so far ahead of what we currently have (check out what the consortium of companies in Europe are developing).
[deleted two more paragraphs of babble…you can thank me latter]
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Marforp / Sasdor / Kaf / Pofas
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Xisiqomelir
- Sojourner
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by grorrakk:
<B>
Curious where you get your estimates from by the way
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
All Island 3, solar power and lunar soil figures from Gerard K O'Neill's The High Frontier
US oil imports figures from this page
Solar power sales figures my own. With some very tedious mathematics behind it.
To address this issue
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gurns:
My impression is that we still can't engineer a mostly self-sustaining ecology/atmosphere. While a large-size space habitat doesn't need to be a perfectly closed system, it needs to be close to that, otherwise it is not going to be economically sustainable in the long run. Shipping food and water up from the earth would be, pun intended, astronomically expensive.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would like to point out that that a 4x20 mile cylinder of the Island 3 design, if it dedicates one panel to agriculture, would have:
1/6 x 3.14 x 4 x 20 = 41.86 mi^2
of food-growing space, which is definitely sufficient for a very large population (approx 10 million). This is EXCLUDING any growing taking place in attached agricultural pods outside the main cylinder.
With regards to water loss, O'Neill felt that it would be minimal, and any minor losses could be compensated for by purifying and using extraterrestrial water sources.
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Thus spake Shevarash: "Invokers are not going to be removed"
[This message has been edited by Xisiqomelir (edited 01-23-2003).]
<B>
Curious where you get your estimates from by the way
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
All Island 3, solar power and lunar soil figures from Gerard K O'Neill's The High Frontier
US oil imports figures from this page
Solar power sales figures my own. With some very tedious mathematics behind it.
To address this issue
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gurns:
My impression is that we still can't engineer a mostly self-sustaining ecology/atmosphere. While a large-size space habitat doesn't need to be a perfectly closed system, it needs to be close to that, otherwise it is not going to be economically sustainable in the long run. Shipping food and water up from the earth would be, pun intended, astronomically expensive.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would like to point out that that a 4x20 mile cylinder of the Island 3 design, if it dedicates one panel to agriculture, would have:
1/6 x 3.14 x 4 x 20 = 41.86 mi^2
of food-growing space, which is definitely sufficient for a very large population (approx 10 million). This is EXCLUDING any growing taking place in attached agricultural pods outside the main cylinder.
With regards to water loss, O'Neill felt that it would be minimal, and any minor losses could be compensated for by purifying and using extraterrestrial water sources.
------------------
Thus spake Shevarash: "Invokers are not going to be removed"
[This message has been edited by Xisiqomelir (edited 01-23-2003).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by grorrakk:
Define please, feasible. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
0wn3d by the squid.
Gorr, do you know the 'prisoner's dilemma?'
That's the reason we keep allotting resources to destruction.
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Sparks crackle in your ear as Kossuth tells you 'answer for you, possibly, O Spankmagnetic One'
Define please, feasible. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
0wn3d by the squid.
Gorr, do you know the 'prisoner's dilemma?'
That's the reason we keep allotting resources to destruction.
------------------
Sparks crackle in your ear as Kossuth tells you 'answer for you, possibly, O Spankmagnetic One'
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