Enchanters?

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Enchanters?

Postby Guest » Sat Apr 07, 2001 5:11 am

How good are they? Has anyone taken a hard look at them?

Miax
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Postby Gindipple » Sat Apr 07, 2001 5:37 am

Just played a lvl 1 in SS with 4 other ppl, mostly lvl 5 and 6. This mostly cuz I can't kill a rodent or sparrow by myself. Killed I think 50 wargs and got lvl 2. Way too harsh if someone is a newbie to the mud. But this is probably not isolated to enchanters.

My initial thoguhts were we were getting shafted on exp still, but it started picking up around lvl 7 again. Tank stoneing of group members would be nice exp boost for them.

Overall they became my favorite class when Conjie pets got downgraded.

As others have said spells are basicaly perfect cept 3rd circle could use either a dmg spell or maybe ray on that one.

Think I also seen that enchanters should get enchant weapon before a conjie does. Makes sense.

My first one I rolled up sucked, I got avergae STR and that only rolled up 28% of the time, typically mundane rolled up (41%) If roller is fixed on this not an issue, but before I couldn't get my own rafts and when I had someone give them to me I was immobilizzing, fun fun.

I think it's great that you take the time to ask too.


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Gindipple (Gnome) stands here.
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Postby Jegzed » Sat Apr 07, 2001 6:52 am

I feel enchanters are as good as before. Superb support casters that are a tad bit hard to exp.

/Jegzed
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Postby Valeos/Dorac » Sat Apr 07, 2001 7:58 am

Enchanters suck to level i noticed this round levels 1-16 wernt bad it all seemed good but once i got 16 it felt like the amount of xp i was getting was dropped down to like 1/5th of what i was getting before. I can see enchanters being a bit of a tougher class to level because they are a powerful class to play by and experienced player, at high levels they are extremely hard to kill. Those few cool enchants we got sure keep us alive, dragonscales, stone etc...since they last longer for us. PWB, Para, ray etc... let us solo alotta stuff. Sure we took out beats doing that stuff but with experience you learn how to do it well.
Exp in higher levels is a real pain, i never made 50 was 49 and grinning for 50 but i was grinning for over a month exp was so harsh heh. some of the level just took so long to level since we have no damage spells for damage xp and we dont get exp for our enchantments in combat or out. No exp for stoning, hasting, scaling etc... Unlike the invokers who get exp for nearly every spell they cast hehe. Enchanters need their exp slot, warriors have tanking and damage exp, rogues have damage exp, invokers damage exp, and every other class has damage exp or healing exp, i think enchanters are pretty much the only class that doesnt get exp for what they do.
I realize that if we got exp for our enchants and such we could twink exp easily, elast thats what everyones saying and i guess it could be. Probably be too much of a bitch to code some style of exp thing for enchanters to get exp from enchants.
As ive stated in other posts...er hmm ill just cut and paste the crap about enchanters ive ranted about already Image
Offence spells seem to either not do enough damage or tend to do more than they should.
Magic missiles, Totem darts, seem to do a tad too much could be toned down a little, not much just a little, enchanters have enough problems dealing damage, would rather see the magic missiles do what they do now. Image
Lightning bolt and chill touch seem to do the same amount of damage when chill touch is 2nd circle and lightning bolt is 4th. Bolt should do alot more damage than that. And magic missiles do at least 3x more damage than lightning bolt.

Blink sometimes doesnt work at all... casts and nothing happens, target not teleported out of room or out of combat.

Possible enchanter tweaks; enchanters dont have enough offence, could do with some tweak of spell circles, or possibly the addition of a few more offensive enchantment spells. Could move ray of enfeeblement down to 3rd circle from 4th. As is 3rd circle has pretty much no useful spells in it. Str and Dex never get used despite what people say, and blink hardly gets used, only heavily in Thrym. Would be nice to get more enchantment spells, more variety, be cool to be able to choose from alot of offensive and defensive spells to cast. Being just a haste/stone/globe/dragonscales caster is boring. Enchanters may be a powerful class to play when high level but only because we are extremely hard to kill with scales. Actually only well played enchanters are extremely hard to kill. But at high level they are boring with few spells to cast.
Spells that pretty much never got cast:
Missile shield - barely any ranged mobs most too weenie and sucked, too low level cept the archers in manscorps.
Wizard eye - has to be the most useless spell in game heh.
Solid fog - again no ranged mobs, only usefull on evil side due to sunlight blockage.
Repulsion - made running the fields of the dead easy, beyond that never used because didnt block high enuff level.
Mind blank - never found last wipe, but sounds useless tho since only psi mobs are githyankis and they wimps.

Enchanters should get enchant weapon BEFORE conjurers. In fact conjurers should not even get that spell. Since it is a major enchant spell it should only be enchanters who get it and get it in 4th instead of 6th circle. Having conjurers get that spell 2 circles before enchanters is just silly.
Possibly add enchant armor might make things interesting with randomly enchanted armor.

I think new enchantment spells should be thought up for the enchanter class, more lower level stuff instead of just those couple of class specific enchantment spells at high level, dscale, airy water, mind blank, constriction etc... lotta the other classes have cool new spells and stuff throughout their circles, might be cool to give enchanters nifty lookin spells too, even if they are the same as other spells at least make us LOOK different than the norm.
Im not saying to give us a ton more offence spells, a few would be nice but we could use more offensive enchantment spells or utility spells or group spells or something more to give us more to do that stone, globe, haste, scale... with little offence combat can get a little boring.
But to recap enchanters need an exp fix, we get exp too slow and leveling is hard...very hard hehe.

Think thats enuff for my rant for now Image
Have a nice day. Image
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Postby Valeos/Dorac » Sat Apr 07, 2001 7:58 am

er holy crap that rant was longer than i thought Image
SORRY Image
Malacar
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Postby Malacar » Sat Apr 07, 2001 2:05 pm

I'd like to see Ray moved to 3rd circle, and slowness moved to 4th circle opposite of haste. Slow/Haste were also in the same circle in D&D, so it makes more sense.

I'd like to see shocking grasp in 3rd circle as well, for some added offense.. Enchanters are really annoying to level at first, it eases up at 6, then gets downright ugly at 16.

I also want to see 2 new spells coded. Agility and Constitution. People would say that Con spell would get abused so that you get it before you level. So what? You'd wear con equipment anyways, so it's a moot point. Not to mention it would come in very very handily with con loss from resses, and things like that. Agility is a spell that would 'just make sense', with the added emphasis on it now.

I agree with enchant weapon, and most of Valeos' other points. Missile shield I never used, same with repulsion, mind blank, solid fog, wizard eye.

Also, our enchantment spells, at low levels, should last a bit longer. 6 minutes for str/dex at below average skill? No wonder they don't get used. Up them to 30 mins or so, and I bet they get used a little more, adding to duration as skill goes up to perhaps 60 mins at level 50. It'd sure be nice.

I agree that we should get some -MINOR- offense at later circles. But only status affecting ones. I'm strapped for ideas right now, but I don't want direct damage stuff. Low damage, status effect(spray is halfway decent, but too random) spells would be kickass. That's what we specialize in, whether benign or adverse, status effects.

My 2 cents.

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Mal

PS - As always, opinions contained are my own, and are not intended to offend or upset anyone, but are merely outspoken thoughts from myself. If you have issues with them, bring em up, but keep flaming to emails.

[This message has been edited by Malacar (edited 04-07-2001).]
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Postby Yadir » Sun Apr 08, 2001 7:22 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Malacar:

<B>.

I also want to see 2 new spells coded. Agility and Constitution. People would say that Con spell would get abused so that you get it before you level. So what? You'd wear con equipment anyways, so it's a moot point. Not to mention it would come in very very handily with con loss from resses, and things like that. Agility is a spell that would 'just make sense', with the added emphasis on it now.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mal,

Here's a thought or two for you.
(1) I don't think con affects how many hitpoints you get when you level. That is an old misconception. If you pass a con notch with eq, you get 1 more hitpoint/level. You will get that boost whenever you put the eq on.
(2) The benefit of a con spell would be what.. increased hitpoints? Isn't that what a vit spell does? To me it seems that vitality is really a 'con enhancement' spell.
(3) The benefit of an agility enhancement spell is what.. improved ac? (per agi notches) Isn't that what bark/armor/eshield, et al do? No need to remind me that there are now agi related skills that would be improved. I agree that is worth considering.

Finally, I consent that by my argument dex would be a hitroll enhancing spell (like bless) and str would be a damroll/bash/shieldpunch, etc. enhancing spell. They are old carryover spells from before the stats/roles of the various classes were changed. Perhaps in the 'new' world of Soj3 they are valuable, perhaps they aren't. I agree with you that the attribute enhancing spells should be considered carefully for their value. I just think that con and agi enhancing spells are redundant.

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Postby Malacar » Sun Apr 08, 2001 8:28 pm

I said the same thing about con, Yayaril.. And had a few people jump all over me claiming it would be twinked to no end. So I honestly don't know.

As far as Agi/Con? Con would be great instead of wearing some con gear for big dragon fights, frees up some for more save equipment perhaps. Or hit point equipment, since tanks are going to be pc's more than not. Same with Agi, it would enhance ac some(moot really at higher levels), but would pump those agi skills.


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Mal

PS - As always, opinions contained are my own, and are not intended to offend or upset anyone, but are merely outspoken thoughts from myself. If you have issues with them, bring em up, but keep flaming to emails.
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Postby Me » Sun Apr 08, 2001 10:24 pm

Str and dex are cuumulative, and easy to keep refreshed. Each application gives +4 to the target.

I always thought a neat spell would be a one-shot non-cuumulative +x max con (or agi or str or whatever) spell. Say, +6 maxcon, or +8 maxagi.

In some circumstances it would fill the role of a psudo-vit, in a little bit of a different way. In others, it would be more like an armor or bark spell.

Anyway, just a little idea I had. It would fit in well with the shaman. Thoughts?
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Postby Marforp » Sun Apr 08, 2001 11:04 pm

I have to disagree with some of the responses here. I honestly haven't played enchanter to any degree here in Alpha, but have tried to level a necro so I know the difficulty in leveling at newbie level now. For those who don't know my primary character has been enchanter/sorc FOREVER ;-).

Enchanters should not get any additional offensive spells and leveling isn't to difficult. Enchanters end up being about as buff as they are going to be when they get stone skin. Yes, dragonscales is nice, but all it is is a fancy stone skin and besides that the only spell you need is globe. Dragonscales hasn't significantly increased the ability of enchanters to solo anything it just made it a little easier. At 31+ I was soloing the brownie by using feeble mind a long long time ago (ahh when you could dim to mobs). With the power of enchanters being so great at such a low level enchanters are pretty much balanaced as they are (yes, many people will consider a class that just stones/globes as a boring class, but *shrug*).

I wouldn't disagree with switching around the circle of spells (actually some of the arguements seem to be worthwhile) and the possible tweaking of lightning (always been under powered). I would be cautious with suggesting agi/con spells since although it would fit nicely in the enchanter spells maybe it would also make since to have them with illuisionist (I think I'm more healthy then I am *spell drops* oh crap I'm dead!).

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Postby Malacar » Sun Apr 08, 2001 11:11 pm

Marfy.. Illusion spells aren't generally beneficial to the user in that sense. OTHERS would see you as more buff or lithe, but not yourself, unless it was cast offensively, and then a mob would think he is moving quicker than he actually is, or has life left that he actually doesn't. These spells directly correlate to enchanters, as they are enchantments.

My wanted to clarify. Image


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Mal

PS - As always, opinions contained are my own, and are not intended to offend or upset anyone, but are merely outspoken thoughts from myself. If you have issues with them, bring em up, but keep flaming to emails.
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Postby Liegashia » Thu Apr 12, 2001 10:47 am

I would have to agree with the upgrade of lightning bolt, dont think it would do anything but help exp at lower levels a little
Also could we possibly get a higher form of feeble mind? could be exactly same spell but at say 9th or 10th circle so it would be a lot harder to shrug....as I've heard spell shrugging is going to be very common for mage mobs.
possibly prismatic spray or a status effect offense like blacklight burst/thunderclap/blazing beam at a higher circle
otherwise enchanters rock
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Postby Joth » Fri Apr 13, 2001 12:35 am

I don't know if this ever was discussed, but maybe to easy enchanter exp, give them exp for stoning and/or globing.
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Postby Malacar » Fri Apr 13, 2001 2:33 pm

I thought the same thing, Joth... But it's too easy to abuse apparently... Or so some think. I think the same thing of healing exp. I'd just go get beat on til I was low, then sit there healing myself. Free exp!

*eyes roll back into his head*

Need to give classes exp for doing what they are meant to do. Enchanters, frankly, suck ass til level 21. Yeah, haste is neat, but with hitter class downgrades... I like the class, but honestly, it needs a little work still. We're weak offensively, yes, but defensively, with the changes to some of our spells... Well our targets now need -equipment- to make our spells really useful. I don't wanna make this seem like a whine. I just want some evening out of our spells. Really, we enchanters need to have a round-table with one of the gods and hash some of our ideas out to possibly get them imped. I don't think anyone wants anything drastic, just some spells switched in circles, and a couple of spells added to our repertoire.

Another concern of mine, is that a lot of Invoker spells have status effects. If the vision was to give them spells that did high amounts of damage, I think the status effects need to be lowered or removed. Blacklight burst simply reeks of enchanter. Slowness? C'mon.

I don't mind invokers doing utterly insane damage, I just don't want them taking away from enchanters in that respect. We are supposed to be a status anomally class. Whether beneficial to our group, or detrimental to the enemy. We have some spells now, but our circles aren't geared to make us function as a well-oiled unit as most of the other classes are at this point.

Shev, Miax... Any chance of a pow-wow with all the previously high level enchanters for some interactive discussion?


------------------
Mal

PS - As always, opinions contained are my own, and are not intended to offend or upset anyone, but are merely outspoken thoughts from myself. If you have issues with them, bring em up, but keep flaming to emails.

[This message has been edited by Malacar (edited 04-13-2001).]
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Postby Xaril » Fri Apr 13, 2001 9:54 pm

Here are my 2 cents about needed enchanter upgrades:

Having played an enchanter to lvl 48 in soj2 and with plenty of time to explore the strengths and weaknesses of the class due to the LONG exp trail I have come up with the following suggestions to improve the class. First let me say that when the change from sorc to inv/ench was first suggested I was very skeptical that it would be any good. After having played both classes I must say that the inv/ench classes have been well implemented. In spite of what many say, I believe that the inv/ench classes are well balanced in their current forms and in light of their intended roles.

There has been talk to increasing the damage we enchanters can do. I would be against this. Enchanters are specialized mages and have no access to invocation magic. We can use the generic damage spells found in mage spellcasting for dummies, but lack the higher damage potential of invocation magic. We specialize in enchantments and have a variety of spells that provide varying benefits to ourselves and others.

After reviewing the enchanter spells and circles and drawing from my own experience as an enchanter, here are my suggested changes:

I. Reduce enchanter experience tables. Not a lot, just a little to make them less painful to level. I have played 9 classes to 46+ and must say that enchanter was the longest/hardest. This has a lot to do with the fact that the don't do a lot of damage. Trying to make their exp based on their enchantments would require a code change and would be twinkable. I would be against increasing the amount of damage that an enchanter can do by adding damage spells (except the one listed in III below) because that is not our role. Reducing their exp tables just a little would be easy to implement without major recoding and would provide a needed boost to the class.

II. Move ray to 3rd circle. We are the masters of enchantment after all! This would put a useful spell in a circle that is not terribly useful.

III. Remove lightning bolt from 4th circle and add a lower form of constriction. A decent damage spell at this circle would be nice in the drought from mm to cone. Constriction is the only enchantment spell that does damage and it makes sense that while trying to develop the use of enchantment magic to constrict one would develop a lower form of the spell. Again, this would be a spellcast enchantment and would get stronger with spec enchant but would be balanced by having haste in the same circle, a spell of high demand. Remember too that we get prismatic spray, not shown in the help files! Image

IV. Have a non-quest 10th circle spell, 'greater enchantment' that provides stone/haste/blur to a single target to shorten spell-ups and provide a spell for 10th circle until the enchanter can quest for dscales. This would not obviate the need for individual stone/haste/blur as there are limited spell slots and always a need for dscales, but would free up some of those lower spell slots and ease the burden on enchanters somewhat in groups.

As stated earlier, I think that enchanters are pretty well balanced as they currently stand and would benefit from the changes described above.

And if you have time, I would also like enchanters to have force missile/inferno, to be 12 ft tall, 1200 lbs, and !bash like an ogre (but pretty like an elf or something), heal, large wraith-form pets, backstab (heh, we wield daggers!), 2 new skills: spellbook block and quill parry, mega sling missile damage, and resurrection.

Keep up the good work Miax and crew! Image

[This message has been edited by Xaril (edited 04-16-2001).]
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Postby Lyt » Fri Apr 13, 2001 10:00 pm

I agree with everything that Xaril said, except for ressurection. Give that to rangers instead Image *jk*

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Postby Xaril » Sat Apr 14, 2001 12:35 am

I would like to add one quick thing I thought of when driving home. I have never quite understood the utility of wizard eye. It isn't terribly useful.

Here is my recommendation to change it:
Wizard eye should summon a disembodied eye that the wizard can use to scout nearby without physically being present. The spell should still be limited to a zone, but when cast it should create a physical eye. The caster can then enter the eye and sees the world from the point of view of the eye, leaving his real corpse vulnerable to attack secondary to concentration. The enchanter can then walk around as the eye and scout nearby places within the zone. There should be a reasonable time duration and the chanter will have some command to exit the eye and it will disappear.

The eye should not be able to open doors or anything and not be aggro. This would allow the spell to work as I had always understood it work as a way to view your local surroundings. There is an element of risk for the caster because they will not be able to see what is going on in their own room while they are peering around.

Anyway, thought that this or some variant of this might change wizard eye from a spell that sees VERY little use to one that would be useful and fun for enchanters to use.
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Postby cherzra » Sat Apr 14, 2001 12:30 pm

That actually sounds more like a familiar... something that was supposedly in the works for conjurers Image

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