Human warriors / Barbarian warriors

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Lohrandelarien
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Human warriors / Barbarian warriors

Postby Lohrandelarien » Fri Apr 06, 2001 5:58 am

I have always wondered why all the warriors actually have to be BARBARIANS!? In order to be good warriors, it would make much more sense to me if the majority of warriors where humans. In most worlds of fantasy, I would believe that human warriors is the most common. But why comes noone plays them? Infact I hate the barbarian race, I thinks it's a pretty silly race in fantasy worlds.. if not conan was created there wouldn't be such hype of barb warrior... some people even believe that their warrior is going to be equal to conan... superior. I'd like to see the mud get tweaked so much that, BARB warrior sucks at some areas, and rule on others. And the human warrior would be the BEST choice of an allround fighter. But as it is now, human warriors ain't tweaked so that their allroundness compensate the barbarian superior hps/dmg...

Lastly I'd like to say that s3 is lookin' really good at this point, it's really good work of the gods! Image twothumbsup for ye!

- Lohr
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Postby Marforp » Fri Apr 06, 2001 6:24 am

Umm it's already done. Barbarians have crappy agi/dex. This means they will take a lot more hits in battles compared to a grey elf or whatever (even human). Barbarians are on Sojourn exactly what they should be (i.e. large/high hp & strong/damage givers).

The problem is people don't want a well rounded race (one that is decent in all areas). People want a superior race (avoids the damage the best, gives damage the best, or takes damage the best). This will never be humans (except if you look at the paladin).

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Postby Ragorn » Fri Apr 06, 2001 10:06 pm

Statistically speaking, that's not quite true. Barbarian dex isn't that bad. In fact, looking purely at the maximum naked statistics at level one, I don't see much of a reason to play a human warrior over a barbarian or dwarf warrior. Under the new dex system, I think a lot of racial stats need rebalancing.

One advantage comes in the fact that you don't have to walk down from GN/MH every time you die. It's not much to trade for more hp, more strength, and in one case, infravision. But hey, it's something,

- Ragorn
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Postby Trogar » Fri Apr 06, 2001 10:38 pm

As far as warriors go, the only thing that matters is hitpoints hitpoints hitpoints. Nothing else matters. When out zoning, the warriors need hitpoints to rescue and tank.

Back on toril when I had a regular group filled with warriors, I made sure they all wore HP eq or they weren't zoning.

Now, as for another point, I did have 1 grey elf warrior in my group. She had all the top notch eq, but we never let her tank because she would just get squashed. Even with max con and isha, she had way less HP then the rest of us. Grey elves are simply under powered as warriors.

As the game stands, I honestly don't see any reason to be anything but a barb or dwarf warrior. They make the best tanks and have great hitpoints. I've had a level 50 dwarf and a lvl 50 barb warrior. They are both equally good, with minor differences.

I like dwarfs better strictly for the infravision (for leading zones), and the walk is a lot faster from MH then GN. Barbs use to be neat when they loaded in WD :P

Tro
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Postby Grox » Sat Apr 07, 2001 12:09 am

Play a dwarf, nuff said

G
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Postby Ragorn » Sun Apr 08, 2001 7:10 am

Trogar,

Your post is taken from a Sojourn 2 perspective. Grey elf warriors now have a LOT going for them over the less dextrous races. The ability to parry and shieldblock (dex based skills) more than once a round means that elves will take less damage off the top than barbs or dwarves. More subtley, their stoneskins will last longer as well since they're taking fewer actual hits. Armor class MATTERS now, so your statement that "it's all about hit points" is no longer entirely accurate. A grey elf needs far less AC gear to get to -100, meaning he can swap some of those high defense items for hp or hit/dam as necessary.

Last wipe, I'd agree with you. This time around, I say you are DEFINITELY going to see elf and halfling warriors take center stage if all goes well.

- Ragorn
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Sun Apr 08, 2001 9:06 am

Your confused. Neither parry or shieldblock is listed under dex.. they are both listed under strength, as they should be.
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Postby Jasix Prowlingwolf » Sun Apr 08, 2001 2:19 pm

*ROAR* Barbaraian's a silly race????

Some of us are smart enough to rescue your long ass name :P

I played a barbarian warrior as my main during Soj2. I love the big shaggy brute, lots of hitpoints, bashed like a barstard and could dish out a bit of damage with the right weapon. From what i can tell barb/dorf warriors are more or less on par except for dorf infravision. I have a few ideas on what should be tweeked on them to make them different but that's for another post.

Human warriors in my opion are hmm well what a newbie plays... Sure they have advantages but a human cant take a beating like a barbaraian or a dwarf. I like barbarians more purely on Roleplaying, i dont really like to play a smelly little dwarf...

Now at the moment I am dagging about in my halfling warrior costume. Although it is hard to really tell what sort of differences there are between the barb warrior and the halfling warrior until i have zoned with the halfling, but at low lvls the halfling does hit a LOT better due to the massive hitroll for ther high DEX. AC is great at 62 nekid (heroic AGI) Halfling STR really sucks, mv is torturous, and the amount of wgt you carry really messes with your AC bonuses...

Halfling CON... hmmm well Even with Perfect CON you only start with 36hp and I have been getting about 13 hp per lvl. Still not to bad compared to barb 39hp max starting and up to 17hp per lvl (til lvl 25) But well they still going to be about 250hp behind a naked barbarian @lvl 50...

Halfling will come into their own with their great hitroll and AC, my little bloke is lvl 30 atm and dodges well. hard to hit but cops a beating when he does get hit. I'll try and report back when I see how he handles tanking Fire Giants. Halfling warriors shouldn't be able to be bashed by big mobs so might stay on feet better and dodge so much hp not matter. (well they will but might last a while before getting hit)

(LVL 30 UNHASTED-Crappy EQ)yes is a pod but does same some rounds on a tubby..

< T: Puzil TC: excellent E: sedawi EC: few scratches>
You deflect the sedawi farmer's blow, and strike back at the sedawi farmer!
You slash the sedawi farmer hard.
You slash the sedawi farmer.
You slash the sedawi farmer.
You slash the sedawi farmer hard.

< 351h/351H 121v/130V >

As for Grey Elf warriors.. Hmm no comment, why not just be a ranger?? Grey elf warrior shouldn't be able to bash near as many bigger mobs as dorf/barbs.. Halflings cabt bash anything!!! But they cant be bashed either but big mobs. Real tanks don't worry about damage they care for hitpoints and not getting hit once they rescue.. If a halfling warrior can survive more rounds then a barbarian warrior and rescue faster then they may be the new super tanks of Jot! I intend on playing Jasix as t he barb and a halfie as well, two very different tanks for different situations..

More stoned ramblings when i work the halfie out.

------------------
Jasix Prowlingwolf
Protector of Clan Prowlingwolf
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Apr 08, 2001 5:16 pm

Hrm... parry depends on str still? That should be changed. Image Parry is mostly dexterity and quickness... heh. I mean think about it... you've got a sliver of metal a few feet long and like a millimeter wide (I've heard that if you block with the flat of the blade it will break, so you gotta catch the edge,) and you have to get that to push an enemie's sword out of the way. That takes dexterity... not strength.

Hrm... actually it would be nice if each race could make the skill dependant on their primary stat. An elf _would_ use dexterous parries while a barbie would just stick his sword in front of the enemy and stop it. Like a boxer, they just put their gloves in front of their face and absorb the blow with thier hands. But a martial artist would push the attack to the side with one hand, which uses a lot less strength. In fact, in my Aikido classes one thing they tell us is that we should never exert more than 4 ounces of pressure to defeat an opponent. (Which is true until you wanna break their arm, then it takes 8 ounces. Image

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Postby Treladian » Sun Apr 08, 2001 6:32 pm

Well, some of the skills are still probably being tweaked a bit. So eventually, shieldblock and parry might well wind up being under dex. After all, things like conjie changes aren't in yet either.
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Apr 08, 2001 7:24 pm

Hope so... though I would put shieldblock under strength. Image That's much more akin to a boxer just putting his gloves in front of his face... heh.

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Postby Treladian » Sun Apr 08, 2001 10:01 pm

Shieldblock is a strange one. If it was done with a kite or tower shield, I can imagine it being strength based. If it's done with a buckler or another small shield, then I can see it being dex based. A lot of skills really could be placed under more than one category, for instance all the weapon skills. Large weapons like axes and warhammers might depend more on strength but 1 handed swords and knives would rely more on dex. I suppose it could always be coded to have the "stat" that some of these skills are based on to be the average of strength and dex to reflect this, but whether or not it's needed is another matter.
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Postby Me » Sun Apr 08, 2001 10:27 pm

I like Sarvis' idea of putting skills under different attributes depending on what race is using them. He made an excellent point when he mentioned that barbarians use skills in different ways than elves would.

I have no idea about it's practability, however.
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Postby Ssryth » Sun Apr 08, 2001 10:35 pm

Hmmmm the smaller and more nimble races might be more apt at avoiding the incoming hits, but at the end of the day being warriors, they will die.... being not as strong constitutionally as say a dwarf or barbarian, how would a halfling fare with contstantly being resurrected?

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Postby Sarvis » Mon Apr 09, 2001 5:06 am

The thing is that a halfling wouldn't need to be resurrected as much. He would only rarely be hit and need resurrection. Hrm.. here's how it should work out:

hit% hploss
Elf: 50 50
Barb: 90 10
Half: 40 60

So the less often you get hit the more hp you lose.. basically it _should_ work out to be the same amount. All the races tank equally but in different ways.. barbies take the damage and just grin, elves anf halflings avoid most of the damage but when they get hit they are screwed... heh. So at the end of the day who is better off, the guy who took a crit and lost half his hp but survived or the guy who didn't get hit at all?

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Postby cherzra » Mon Apr 09, 2001 2:01 pm

The guy who doesn't get hit at all. Who cares that barbs get 100hp more, two to three mob hits and that is gone. After that he just dies while the elf dodges more.
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Postby Brugg » Mon Apr 09, 2001 9:15 pm

I for one like human warriors. I mean who says you have to play the most powerful race? i like the human because it is weaker than the barbarian, it forces you to have to rely on non conventional means of getting stuff done (i.e. Bands of Deformities) to me thats where the fun starts. For me its ALWAYS more fun to be the underdog.
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Postby Trogar » Mon Apr 09, 2001 9:46 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Brugg:
I for one like human warriors. I mean who says you have to play the most powerful race? i like the human because it is weaker than the barbarian, it forces you to have to rely on non conventional means of getting stuff done (i.e. Bands of Deformities) to me thats where the fun starts. For me its ALWAYS more fun to be the underdog. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heheheh... Each to his own, but personally I much prefer powermudding. The stronger you can be, the better. That was always my philosophy.

Aside from the HP thing, personally I could never play a race without infravision. Makes running around Jotunheim harder Image
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Postby Trogar » Mon Apr 09, 2001 9:48 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cherzra:
The guy who doesn't get hit at all. Who cares that barbs get 100hp more, two to three mob hits and that is gone. After that he just dies while the elf dodges more.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Someone else wrote a nice argument about what's better, having more HP or dodging more and saving damage... Its a valid arguement.

But what about the other damage effects. That extra AGI sure won't help defend against dragonbreath or areaspells.

This leads back to my original theory of HP HP HP HP HP HP... and more HP.

Trogar
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Postby Trogar » Mon Apr 09, 2001 9:55 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B> so your statement that "it's all about hit points" is no longer entirely accurate. A grey elf needs far less AC gear to get to -100, meaning he can swap some of those high defense items for hp or hit/dam as necessary.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry Rags, but you are completely wrong :P. As my prevous post said, you can take damage in more ways then just mobs hitting you. Ragorn tells Tiamat 'Fear me! I don't have HP but I have agility!!!!' :P. Its all about hitpoints.

Your message raises an interesting question. For a warrior class decked out in good EQ, what is the AC range they are in unspelled? I don't recall (or never took notice).

Tro
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Apr 10, 2001 12:19 am

Grey elves now have the chance to get an extra hit, and thus extra damage, with high dex. So do halflings. So tiamat might kill you quicker, but you do more damage before you die Image

And straight from Uthgar. Parry and shieldblock notch based on your strength stat, but high dex gives you bonuses for them to actually WORK. Elves and halflings WILL defend better than barbs.

Elves and halflings will go down faster to area spells, but as a tradeoff they have better natural hitrolls and AC, requiring them to wear less specialized gear than a barb or dwarf. So yeah you die faster to area spells, but you tank just as well against melee and you can wear more hit/dam or hp gear while maintaining combat effectiveness.

- Ragorn

[This message has been edited by Ragorn (edited 04-09-2001).]
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Postby Trogar » Tue Apr 10, 2001 2:07 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
Grey elves now have the chance to get an extra hit, and thus extra damage, with high dex.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is interesting. So an elven warrior can get 5 1h hits or 4 2h hits?? That would definatly be a worthy balancing factor. Wouldn't that put rangers our of business?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>Elves and halflings will go down faster to area spells, but as a tradeoff they have better natural hitrolls and AC,
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The maximum a barb/dorf can get with good stats is 6/6 (I am not a tester, things may be changed of course). I would be HIGHLY surprised if any goodie class gets higher then 6/6 default.

To be honest, Armor class is really a non issue. I think (but am forgetfull) that a lvl 50 ranger/druid can bark for 37 AC, and armor is 20 AC. Anyone out zoning will have -100 AC. It just means we add 'bark out'/'armor out' triggers.

When I was a newbie, I played a ranger(the horrors!!!!! just kidding). As a newbie, I had -100 AC spelled up at level 29, with mid-level EQ. AC is a non-issue.

Trogar

[This message has been edited by Trogar (edited 04-09-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Trogar (edited 04-09-2001).]
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Postby gnerble » Tue Apr 10, 2001 2:21 am

Avoiding physical damage is very nice, I suppose greys/halflings are much better at that then say dwarfs or barbarians.

They won't be rescuing very well after 2 or 3 clouds however... Physical damage is only half (and at higher levels, maybe 1/4) of the overall picture.

[This message has been edited by gnerble (edited 04-09-2001).]
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Apr 10, 2001 6:23 am

Tro: I was only -70 barked and armored last wipe. But then, I had hit/dam gear on and not AC gear. AC will be a factor to some people, and to some races more than others. But I don't see you being convinced until you see it for yourself, so enjoy your barbarian warrior :P

Gnerble: Depends on the zone. Go to manscorps, nothing casts. Go to tiamat, everything breathes. Different races will excel in different zones, which I think is great.

- Ragorn
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Postby Jegzed » Tue Apr 10, 2001 6:46 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
Go to manscorps, nothing casts. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I could mention quite a few caster mobs in scorps Image

/Jegzed
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Tue Apr 10, 2001 6:54 am

Truthfully ragorn, are you gonna tell me hitroll is hard to get at high levels? I tested a 46th barb, against a 46th halfling, tanking goldie. Neither could do it without stones/heals. We were tanking about the same. The difference, he was getting a attack extra a round, sometimes 2. I on the other hand was critting every 2-3 rounds..

His hitroll (max str, and max dex) was 17/26 (we did not have full sets of eq) my hitroll and dam was 14/31 with 150 extra hps...

Barbarians are still gonna be the prefered tankers, but elves, halflings will do some amazing things.


P.s. Ranger elves, and Halfling rogues will be amazing, like 5-6 hits a round with haste im thinking.
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Postby cherzra » Tue Apr 10, 2001 1:44 pm

Too bad yuan-ti don't get special dex, I'd love to play a yuan...
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Postby Trogar » Tue Apr 10, 2001 7:53 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
But I don't see you being convinced until you see it for yourself, so enjoy your barbarian warrior :P</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ROFL... yea I'm stubborn like that Image
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Postby Rynlaeis » Wed Apr 11, 2001 1:01 am

Actually I believe parry and shieldblock are both agility based skills. I remember hearing that the skills on the practice listing are misplaced under the wrong stats now, perhaps because of the new skill additions or something. Could be wrong.
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Postby Sarell » Wed Apr 11, 2001 5:43 am

I thought hitpoints were just a buffer while your stone went down/mob was too big for stone. Can you really avoid getting hit by a big mob with the new AC system?
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Postby Ragorn » Wed Apr 11, 2001 6:22 am

Parry and shieldblock are dex. Dexterity is a measure of your hand-eye coordination and skill with your hands. Agility is a measure of your ability to move your body around.

- Ragorn
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Postby Bibbe » Wed Apr 11, 2001 12:44 pm

Hmm lohr ..
Barbarian is surely a race in FR
And the warriors are often better then the human warriors. Though not as common ..
That cannot be solved in the playerbase it hink though. Just make more human warrior mobs instead of barb warrior mobs, to "balance the world".

In my eyes players are the special characters in this world and mobs makes out the "ordinary" common people. Or something like that.
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Postby Rynlaeis » Wed Apr 11, 2001 3:23 pm

Ragorn - I'm aware of the differences between dexterity and agility, and it does sound as if dexterity would be more important especially to parry, but an old Sojourn player, I think it was Narial, told me that shieldblock and parry were based off of agility.. then again, that was a long time ago and Narial could have been wrong or it could have been changed or I could have misheard or whatever.. so I'll just assume you know what you're talking about.
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Postby Scarlet Adept » Wed Apr 11, 2001 11:28 pm

On this issue of HPs vs the combination of dodging, parries, AC, etc - I think you need to talk about "tanking ability" rather than just one if its combinatory aspects, such as HPs.

Tanking ability would be damage mitigation determined by AC, damage elimination via dodging and blocking, and HPs to absorb what gets through.

I suspect that the general goal of "tank" will be to reach 600+ HPs(w/o vit),-100 AC and master skills.

Barbs have a great bash (and trolls better!) but I am not calling this part of "tanking ability" that being the ability to stand up to punishment. Hopefully a halflings lack of great bashing skill will be balanced by her ability to avoid some bashes, i.e. damage elimination.

If more damage elimination can be added to the "tanking character" then by definition she becomes a better tank. Smaller races might end up being better in Soj3 if the damage avoided exceeds the extra HPs gained by being a larger race, assuming the halfling can still reach the 600+ HP safety margin.

With an equal set of "choice eq" a caster will have more HPs than a warrior-type, but players of Sojourn know that a casters can't "tank" worth beans. Thus HPs is not the paramount concern comprising "tanking ability" If not HPs then, damage reduction and elimination must be what makes a better tank.

If high dex races end up getting extra blocks and dodges for damage elimination then they will become the tanks of choice.

There will always be value for the "meat shield" tank however. This is the Trogar with 1000+ HPs that charges the Utgard gatehouse. He might have a lower damage roll than other tank types because he centers on HPs above all but you know hes gonna be alive by the time the clerics finish casting Full Heal. A Soj3 Elf might last longer in the gatehouse if not bashed because hes avoiding more damage than the dwarf has extra HPs, but you wouldn't want this elf charging Frost giant magi, luring dragons, Kost & pals, etc.

A third type of tank is a fighter that really isn't trying to be the best tank or meat shield, but trying to be an unstoppable source of best possible melee damage output. Sojourn needs these "hitters" as well because invokers won't always have every spell in memory. Damage over time is a concept that Everquest players should be very familiar with. Its the hitters and tanks that make battles longer than 30 seconds survivable but its the casters that tip the scale in favor of the PCs vs the mobs
Hitters serve the invaluable function of damage over time.
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Postby Kiloppile » Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:47 am

Would that it were so, Galok. Do not automatically assume that because a skill is listed under a particular stat that the game works that way. In this case it doesn't.

Ragorn, as far as I've been able to determine, the Shieldblock skill is not affected by dex in any way, unfortunately (me being a halfling and all).
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Postby Joth » Thu Apr 12, 2001 3:06 am

Well I am going to have to agree with Trogar on this one. When leading zones you need your tanks to have both HP and AC, and both barb and dwarf were it. AC to mean didn't really mean anything but to reduce the damage because a 55+ level mob is GOING TO HIT YOU. And if they have changed it well... it is going to be interesting Image.

Also I think it is very easy to get -100 and be 100% hit and dam. Hell I know personally looking on Kasula screen that he was -100 with 47 45, and the other 2 top rangers were the same pretty much.

But only thing is though I will do a wait and see, but I highly doubt -100 is going to matter that much to mobs that are 55+ levels. Finally most zones have area spells. And not being able to silence the room is going to be interesting versus silencing a mob that has a good chance to save P-).
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Postby Ragorn » Thu Apr 12, 2001 5:05 am

2 wipes ago it was easy to get -100 AC and high hit/dam. Equipment has gone through two downgrades since then.

- Ragorn
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Postby kiryan » Sat Apr 14, 2001 11:46 pm

ok, after reading all of this im wondering if you guys forgot how combat worked in sojourn.

stone the tank
when stone fades cast it again and have the cleric full him

where did any skills come into play? It didnt matter if you dodged ect, it was all about having enough stones and fhs to last the fight. yea yea you could avoid hits and therefore ect ect, but practically there was no difference as long as the warrior didnt die before the stone / fh went off. thats why more hp made better tanks. it wasnt about long term saving damage, it was about surving one round for your spells to get back up.
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Sun Apr 15, 2001 12:28 am

Ragorn, check again. Shieldblock and Parry are strength based skills, and will remain that way, as told to me (and listed) by several Imms.
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Postby Ragorn » Sun Apr 15, 2001 7:40 am

I will reiterate what I just said.

Parry and shieldblock are listed under strength skills because they notch faster if you have higher strength. High dex gives you a bonus to parry, and currently NO stat gives you a shieldblock bonus.

If you don't believe me, roll up an ogre and a halfling, and see who parries better. It's already been tested several times over. Find out for yourself if you think I'm wrong.

- Ragorn
Galok Icewolf
Sojourner
Posts: 510
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Galok Icewolf » Sun Apr 15, 2001 8:21 am

Blah.. I wrote some stuff.

If you wanna play a halfling warrior, go for it. I wish you best of luck. It dosent bother me, because I won't be playing one.

As someone just told me...
To each their own Image

Have fun everyone.

[This message has been edited by Galok Icewolf (edited 04-15-2001).]

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