good-evil trading

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cherzra
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good-evil trading

Postby cherzra » Mon May 21, 2001 8:51 am

This was asked a few weeks ago, but there wasn't a response yet... with equipment starting to accumulate, perhaps now would be a better time.

What are the rules on trading between goods and evils? I believe it was the be fully allowed now, but can we get an official word on this?

-Can a goodie freely buy/trade/receive an item from an evil, without fear of outcasting or punishment?

-Any restrictions for paladins and rangers, or not?

-To what extent is selling stuff allowed? I mean if you want to, could you get 10 the same items and sell them for profit if you would like to?

-What about quest items, quest components?


It might be nice to know these things, as I foresee trading amongst the sides starting to happen real soon Image
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Postby Xizz » Mon May 21, 2001 2:00 pm

I could swear I saw some goodies running around with bone eq :P
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Postby Gindipple » Mon May 21, 2001 2:52 pm

From what I remember if it's not clearly stated as illegal, it's legal. That was what I thought I seen from some god as the response to it.
Makes sense to me too.

Go make some profits Image
Gindipple shouts looking for hatoriskin boots.
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Postby Tayros » Mon May 21, 2001 2:58 pm

I thought it was always illegal to withhold / sell quest components?

Tay
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Postby Xizz » Mon May 21, 2001 3:10 pm

oh yeah cherzra, shame on you! read the rules ^_^

6. QUEST ABUSE WILL NOT BE ALLOWED NOR TOLERATED.
2. selling items needed for quests that have no real eq value
3. stealing items needed for quests from mobs with the intention
of selling or giving them away
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Postby cherzra » Mon May 21, 2001 3:41 pm

I didn't mean specifically selling, but trading or just giving it... some quest parts are a lot easier to get with a goodie than evil and vice versa.
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Postby kwirl » Mon May 21, 2001 3:48 pm

i dont THINK giving quest items away is wrong, just frowned upon socially. i remember being given acorns for the gcol quest, i learned the quest myself, and
had to get my own after that. but if i hadn't been given the first acorn, i would not have known where to proceed with the quest. ponders

i thought i had a point, but i forgot.

oh well

personally, i would rather see people who trade cross-alignment RP heavily, i mean
ok - i am super good barbarian warrior,
you are super evil troll warrior, we both in baldur's gate, so i not gonna go smash you.

but i happen to have something you want (i know, we don't shout in baldur's gate, but lets pretend he finds a flyer and by some miracle learns to read) i might think of selling to that troll, but id go out of my way to charge an arm and a leg more than it was worth, because he was a troll.

however, sadly, this troll has goody alts, and will spit out Kelly's Blue Book values on everything i have.

"What are you kidding????? 5 months after a pwipe tiny silver rings sell on the market for 7 platinum, 4 gold, 3 silver, and 8 copper. Ill give you 6. did i mention my troll works for the NYSE?"

bah
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Postby Vazzgo » Tue May 22, 2001 3:37 pm

Back to the topic... Is good/evil trading going to be possible? if so.. then how?
Guest

Postby Guest » Tue May 22, 2001 4:10 pm

Yes, it's possible. If there's equip we don't want on one side or the other, we'll code it as such. We made a committment not to do anymore outcasting, so that's no longer an issue.
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Postby Tayros » Tue May 22, 2001 9:43 pm

Mebbe have an alignment trade base:

Good allowed trade with Good, Neutral
Neutral is universal trader
Evil allowed trade with Evil, Neutral

??

Just a thought.
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Postby Jasix Prowlingwolf » Wed May 23, 2001 6:59 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Mask:
Yes, it's possible. If there's equip we don't want on one side or the other, we'll code it as such. We made a committment not to do anymore outcasting, so that's no longer an issue.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bah! What are you doing Mask! Giving a straight direct answer to a question? We are supposed to post pointless assumptions on here for eternity and confuse everyone with our 'ideas'

*chuckle*

Gotta love a real answer :P
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Postby Astansus » Wed May 23, 2001 11:50 am

No more outcasting? Image Sojourn has taken a step back.
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Postby Malacar » Wed May 23, 2001 4:15 pm

No it hasn't Astansus. Outcasting was a band-aid to the real problem. The fact that evils had no mage types. Witht he addition of Drow and Yuan-Ti, the problem is resolved. I agree with the new rules. The Outcasting had far too many rumors/speculation about it, and tied up a god's time hunting folks down. Now there will be no cries of favoritism, there will be much more time for the gods to do what they need to do. Be it code, track down multiplaying, track down bots, bugs, etc.

I love that we can inter-race trade. It wil be a lot cooler this way.

Thanks for the straight answer Mask. This one question has been bugging me for weeks.


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Postby Wargar » Wed May 23, 2001 10:27 pm

I beg to differ! Being an Outcast sorcerer was great most of the time, I thought it added flavor myself (and good RP stories too :P) Not that i'm against the new change, but the old way rocked too.


Methaki K'droeden -DreadLord- The Blood Horde
Sarlend K'droeden - The One True Outcast

Ahh, good times!
Guest

Postby Guest » Sat May 26, 2001 8:08 pm

The biggest issues to outcasting and the reasons we ended it are these.

1. It took an ungodly (pardon the pun) amount of time for the admins. We basically had to frequently take a look at all evil race groups to find the outcasters. It was a huge waste of time.

2. It virtually ruined most evil race casters. If you checked, most evil race groups used outcast casters instead of evil race casters. That didn't make any sense.

3. People were rolling chars specifically to be outcasted, and would even go so far as to have their friends report them so we'd outcast them. At that point, we realized it wsa just getting silly.

So what do we have now? Oddly enough, evil race groups are flourishing, there's more evil race clerics, people are playing duergars, and people have finally realized drow make kickass invokers/enchanters. Just makes more sense and cuts down on useless admin stuff.

Mask
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Postby Malacar » Sat May 26, 2001 9:57 pm

Yeah, but my beef is it is too easy to play an evil right now.

Speaking mainly to enchanters/invokers...

Drow have better Ints, better hps, and innates. Their hometown is sickeningly easy, you can level in there to 30(ask Todrael). I don't wanna start a good/evil flamewar, but I've spoken to enough competant evils and heard nothing but how easy it is. A review of Sojourn went so far as to say to play an evil, because of how laughably easy one is to play, as compared to the goodies.

I know some evils will deny this and outright flame me, but honestly, ask me if I care? The disclaimer says that evils are supposed to be hard to play... As far as I can tell, only Yuan-Ti fit that bill.


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Postby Kelsiria » Sat May 26, 2001 11:52 pm

Does this mean that any evil or goodie may group with another without fear of being oc? Say if an evil asks a druid to well them somewhere, that druid can do it?

*scratch*

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Postby Treladian » Sun May 27, 2001 12:04 am

Kelsiria, this is only in reference to trading between evils and goodies. Grouping between the two is now prevented by code, meaning it won't work no matter how many times you try. Not sure about spells though.
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Postby Saitcho » Sun May 27, 2001 2:03 am

bloodstone can be tough too. at best its a pain in the butt.

saitcho
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Postby Dinggle » Sun May 27, 2001 6:41 am

Hrm...

When you say evils are laughably easy, what are you comparing them to?

No good races are hindered by sunlight. Barbarian hometown may be far and have the occaisonal aggro, but i died 4 times trying to get out of ghore to retrieve my corpse last night. i didnt complain, it's part of being an evil race.

yes, DK is awesome exp, but who wants to exp in one place 24/7? i sure dont. it's also big and can take quite a while to learn.

evils are harder than goodies, but with the drow and yuan-ti filling the caster holes they are just as successful as goodies.
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Postby cherzra » Sun May 27, 2001 11:14 am

Hey Malacar, referring to that review doesn't exactly do wonders for your credibility - quite the contrary. That was a review of levelling from 1 to 5 and thus is totally irrelevant to the real playing situation.
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Postby Malacar » Sun May 27, 2001 3:39 pm

I knew Cherzra would be one of the first to jump on this. :P

Cherzra you defend evils rabidly at times, and I won't even try to argue the point with you, because, put quite simply, you never listen to them and go crazy trying to say how hard evils are.

Drow are too successful. And given the sheer size of the underdark zones... How does this sunlight affect you that much? You have spells to compensate for it. You've got one hometown that is arguably the easiest, most powerful, quickest to level, on the mud(If I am not mistaken, there's only one dangerous aggro mob. That's secondhand however).

Not to try to compare, but I guess I have to.

Play a grey elf. It's an enormously small island. Very very cramped. The exp is intolerable. We don't even have the CHOICE to leave. Our hit points suck ass. We have the option of only grey elf tanks. they have nice ac, but can't take much damage. There's a smackload of wandering nastyass aggroes to kill us on a road that leads to every single area on the island. Yes, there is halfway decent equipment there, and it's not really a fault of the mud that we have enormously jerkoff players that twink, repeatedly, the items there to sell and trade. But it happens, and makes life that much more difficult.

I fail to see how I can have 5 credible, intelligent, and good playing evils say how easy it is, and then have some folks defend it.. I think it's getting defended more out of 'hey this is too much of a good thing, I don't wanna lose it!' perspective, than of honest, middle of the road objective opinions.

For the record, that review that I had mentioned, I merely heard about. But I'll be honest. Levels 1-5 are where most new players will end up, so it's very credible to the newer people, wouldn't you say?

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Malacar - French kissin midgets, and damn proud of it. Oh yeah... My comments can offend you now, I don't care anymore. Have a day.

[This message has been edited by Malacar (edited 05-27-2001).]
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Postby Wargar » Sun May 27, 2001 4:15 pm

*Gag* For Christ's sake, I wish I could read one FU**ING thread that doesn't turn into this good vs evil whining. Almost as pathetic as the Duris forums here lately.

Here, let me spell it out for you. The "evils are more difficult" argument is based around NEWBIES. NEWBIES will find it more difficult as an evil than a goodie. ACCOMPLISHED PLAYERS should find NO DIFFICULTY whatsoever based on chosen race.

Roughly translated, that disclamer says this: If you aren't familiar with Sojourn and it's play style, evils will be difficult for you. Evils were designed for the more experienced players.

Guess what? You are looking at the difficulty based on YOUR experience. You obviously know enough that this disclamer DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU. OF COURSE the evil side doesn't seem difficult! You know sojourns aggro system, you know enough to look at room descr. in a new zone, YOU AREN'T A NEWBIE. Here, let me put it plainly: THE EVIL SIDE IS NOT DIFFICULT, THE GOODIE SIDE IS NOT DIFFICULT, QUIT FREAKING WHINING. God, if you are that big into race-wars, go to duris and let's rumble.

To the evils, who are much more enjoyable to group with..

Thumbs up, Soldier!
emote gives you a big thumbs up!

(Btw, years ago, that disclaimer was true anyway: it was MUCH more difficult as an evil than a goodie, for pure numbers sake: 10 evils online, 140 goodies.. try finding a group (Pre Drow/Duergar/Squid/Yuan.. ya know, WHEN THAT DISCLAIMER WAS WRITTEN))
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Postby Jegzed » Sun May 27, 2001 4:17 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Malacar:
You've got one hometown that is arguably the easiest, most powerful, quickest to level, on the mud(If I am not mistaken, there's only one dangerous aggro mob. That's secondhand however).</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DK is easy, but FAR from the easiest ht in the mud.

Ixarkon is far easier, and much easier accessable.

However, waterdeep is the easiest of them all.

/Jegzed
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Postby Malacar » Sun May 27, 2001 4:20 pm

Yeah, WD is pretty darn cheesy. Image

But a lot of the mobs there had exp downgraded. Ixarkon is easier, Jeg? *yikes*



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Postby Jegzed » Sun May 27, 2001 4:41 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Malacar:
<B>Ixarkon is easier, Jeg? *yikes*
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ix is easier for those that know what they are doing.
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Postby Todrael » Mon May 28, 2001 5:12 am

In alpha, I created Todrael to get back into the mud. I wanted to be a necromancer. I wanted to be a drow. I hadn't played since Toril was wiped, and I had never gotten higher than 39th level, even then. In alpha, I grouped until level 16, then from level 16 to level 39, I solo'd exp in DK. All in DK. It took me a week to learn the area like the back of my hand (exact dirs to nearly everywhere), and every mob I could kill. The only aggros are behind a closed door that you don't need to open.

I found it laughably easy. True, I've been mudding for 8 years, and I had played Sojourn 1 and Toril for several years, even as a Troll, when drow/yuan/illithids were a myth. I didn't want Menzo to be put in for Beta, because then I couldn't start in DK, where I knew it would take me no time to advance, without pressure to leave into the big bad world, huddled safe in my cocoon.

I don't see what all this is about, really.. if you want to know how easy it is, make a drow and level to 20 *shrug*. If you think that's too easy, then roll something harder for your challenge.

-Todrael
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Postby Ssarra » Tue May 29, 2001 12:29 pm

I've played every race on the mud except an illithid to at least 20... never made it much higher than that with but a few characters. Evils make leveling look easy because there aren't as many evils as goodies, and the evil leaders are astounding. They learn and know all the zones, what to kill, and have learned ways around every hinderance. I've grouped with some of these guys before, they're fast and to the point. Evils aren't easy to play, the people playing evils are good. I can already tell it will take me a long while to step up to the standards that some of these guys set. But dammit, i'm gonna try Image
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Postby Malacar » Tue May 29, 2001 5:21 pm

There aren't as many evils as goodies?

Boggle, it's pretty darn close these days...

And even if there is a difference, I would daresay Evils got a good chunk of the old experienced players.

There is no inequality anymore. Evils came into the spotlight, and are owning things on a consistent basis.

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Postby Joth » Tue May 29, 2001 5:27 pm

Personally,

I don't think evil race should be harder or easier then evils. And I personally don't see it as such since I played a duerger before. It is just different. But the sunlight issue, can be a pain P-).
Guest

Postby Guest » Tue May 29, 2001 6:11 pm

Hmm, as someone who has played an evil primary for a looooooong time (5 years) I thought I'd add my thoughts in response to Malacar:

1. If you're not playing an evil, how can you know how easy it is? You're basing your comments on having "spoken to enough competant evils and heard nothing but how easy it is". Well, of course! They're competent.

2. Drow are not as uber as you make them out to be. They are somewhat uber, perhaps, but not that uber. And then there's the whole dayblind thing. Which really, really sucks. And can only be counteracted (I believe) by some serious use of control weater in the proper conditions or by a very high-level squid skill. And how many high-level squids were there last wipe?

3. The review of Sojourn you speak of was a review of Sojourn2 (not 3) AND the reviewer's comment was that he/she found playing a some evil races, specifically TROLL, easier than most goodie races because of the innate hit regen IIRC.

4. If you want to know the truth about the disclaimer - I suggested, before we opened, that we simply remove it. For the very reason that there will always be people saying "Evils aren't hard enough! The disclaimer says they're supposed to be bad-ass hard!" But we decided to leave it in for two reasons.

One - if you are a brand new player to Sojourn, as a general rule (race-specific issues aside) it probably is more difficult to start as an evil, since for one thing there 1/2 to 1/3 evils as goodies on the MUD at any one time. Also, as a general rule, evil HTs are harder (apart from DK).

Two - we left the disclaimer in "for posterity's sake". Because it's always been there and it's sort of a piece of Sojourn history. Is it applicable to the era of Sojourn3? Maybe, maybe not. See above. But don't expect anything (evil races or the disclaimer) to change any time soon.

--D2
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Postby Malacar » Tue May 29, 2001 6:27 pm

Actually, if truth be known, the reason I even mentioned it, is because all I hear is how easy it is, but no honest opinions posted to that effect. All I saw were posts on how hard they were.

D2, you hit it right on the head. That disclaimer has got to go, for just that reason. People will always claim that. Honestly, I really don't have much of an issue with it, just tired of seeing people saying how easy they were and not stepping forward.


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Postby Tzat » Thu May 31, 2001 4:37 am

Sorta on this topic...

So good/evils could do zones together for instance...just not be in the same group... ?
Seems kinda weird.
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Postby Ssarra » Thu May 31, 2001 12:16 pm

Heh, there were over a hundred visible players on last night, and only 28 of them were visible evils... I know there are a lot of anon players... but...
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Postby sok » Thu May 31, 2001 6:11 pm

evils are easier than they were b4. of course i played yuanti last wipe. but walking to hp from dk w/ ultra is not good. basically 1/2 of the mud time is spended waitnig for darkness to come. i dint' have to worry about getting killed cuz its only calimport desert but it took me 2 days to get from dk to hp. of course this is only mud day. i played elfs and i remember the only really good xp was roots under anna basically from lvl 15-20 thats all i did. elfs have it better than they did b4. they have grey warrior now. b4 i would have to us druid had no tanks cuz ac meant didley. i remember asking tolm to come to evermeet so i had a tank. that was fun time. i'm glad he died tanking cuz it was funny as heck. oh.. something i notice this wipe. i lvl faster w/ evil than w/ my goodie cuz evils are more open to allowing u into their group. not that goodie was not but because goodie had suck a bigger player base sometime it's not a good idea to allow too many people into group cuz it slow down xp. dornax is too nice of a guy to refuse people group so he be dragging 7 folks. it was not great xp but heck he's entertaining. he like to cast spells and stuff. it's funny. okay free association is over. bye
Guest

Postby Guest » Thu May 31, 2001 6:20 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ssarra:
Heh, there were over a hundred visible players on last night, and only 28 of them were visible evils... I know there are a lot of anon players... but...</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We hit 150 playing, 175 sockets last night. More evils stay anon than goodies I think. Image

Miax
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Postby Zrax » Thu May 31, 2001 6:21 pm

I think it is worth having the disclaimer there for the simple fact that a newbie would probably quit the mud out of frustration trying to get out of a hometown like ghore or hyssk, or run into one of the many many tracking anti evil mobs that roam the world. To an experienced player the difficulty between good and evil becomes much less with the exception of bling races I think. I still dont understand how they cope with that personally, I would go insane.
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Postby Zrax » Thu May 31, 2001 6:22 pm

i meant blind not bling btw.
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Postby Kiloppile » Thu May 31, 2001 6:48 pm

Also keep in mind that evils are in the dark a whole heck of a lot more than goodies.
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Postby Ssarra » Thu May 31, 2001 8:19 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Zrax:
...To an experienced player the difficulty between good and evil becomes much less with the exception of blind races I think. I still dont understand how they cope with that personally, I would go insane. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's why I play a yuan-ti necro instead of a drow... I'd rather walk from hyssk after a death than deal with blind. I like to know where I'm going Image
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Postby Elseenas » Fri Jun 01, 2001 6:21 pm

Todrael:
I would claim the issue is with Necros being able to move freely about a hometown with limited aggros/assisters and no justice. Not an inherent easy piece with Evils in general.

For all of you who have never played a Drow to any reasonable level (over 35). Yes, they are powerful, no they are not superpowerful and as several others have mentioned: being dayblind *sucks*.

Malacar: If you could leave the island or others could easily get to the island, the situation would change dramatically.

Ssarra hit the nail on the head. If you summed the experience of evils and goods and took the average, you would find that most evils--particularly those who do serious leading--are above average for the MUD. This automatically makes it look easier than it actually is.

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Postby Kiloppile » Fri Jun 01, 2001 6:33 pm

I don't really think playing an evil is easier. It's just possible to do slightly better exp-wise *if* you know what you're doing.

Um... that seems completely within reason to me, at least.

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