Equipment Distribution

Archive of the Sojourn3 General Discussion Forum.
izarek
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Postby izarek » Sat May 19, 2001 1:51 am

An interesting question. I'll add a related point. I think the most important thing is to make it clear in the beginning if/how eq will be destriubuted, reguardless of method. Non-clarity leads to trouble.

Izzy
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Postby Treladian » Sat May 19, 2001 3:34 am

Well, one addenum is to restrict bids to items the character can use, unless all the hitters or casters in the group don't need (or want) an item in question.

To me, option 3 seems like a good compromise between normal bidding and handouts. While it does favor people that have been with you longer, it doesn't screw over new people since they still have a shot at something for their time and effort. And if they don't get something this time, they have a better shot at it next time. Of course, this assumes they'd get taken along for a next time too. Anyway, just my thoughts on the matter.
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Postby Uthgar » Sat May 19, 2001 3:48 am

I'd vote for the bonus bid method, personally. I'd also add an addendum that the group leader should veto people bidding on hotly contested items they don't need (6th amy, multiple flammys for someone with no hitter char, etc). An additional point, I hate the 1 to 100 roll system. That's a throwback to elementals. With the dice command, there's no need for that very cheeseable system (talk about icq nonsense, 2 people bid on purpose to surround a 3rd, etc). 5 bids on an item, roll a 5 sided die to determine who wins it.
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Postby kwirl » Sat May 19, 2001 8:10 am

ok, this is an easy one for me.

in my 8 years of mudding, i have seen all form of bidding on all forms of zone eq, and my favorite has been toril's method of bidding, with no extras.

I think EVERYONE has a fair chance, and just because someone gets unlucky a few times, does NOT mean they should get more of a chance than someone the next time along. its RANDOM. the game is NOT out to get you. you do not deserve an extra shot because you lost the last bid. However, as a player - i HAVE given away my item which i won bidding to someone who has been trying to get it.
many reasons

first, they always appreciate ait
second, i just feel good about it
third, they remember when i am in need

if any changes were to be made to the system, my only suggestion wouuld be to make it so that you can only bid on items that you can use, dont ask "if its ok to bid for my GF" because its wrong. we should not be put in the situation where we are forced to allow this just because we do not want to look bad. simply put, no its actually not ok, for general groups. you and your buddies, sure - but i mean groups where you do not know everyone very closely. ive never been in the situation, but i know people who have, and they dont like it.

another point
if people get "extra" bids for losing, then people who would have had a fair chance, have less of a chance to win
and therefore they become losers, giving THEM extra bids, and it keeps adding up til you have 11 people with 5 bids each. Touk, do YOU want to be the one counting 55 bids at a time? I wouldnt.

-dazok proudwolf
-kwirl karphys
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Postby Jegzed » Sat May 19, 2001 8:27 am

I tend to prefer handouts over everything else. Hell will freeze over the day that I allow a 36troll on his first jot run an equal chance on a twillight as the troll who I've zoned with daily for a year.

If you want to bid, then there is a kind of fair dicing in using slots.
ie, lets say we get twillight on an eq run, and got 4 good warriors in the group. Then I'd say "1-Blung 2-Turg 3-Cherzra 4-Krolb" and dice a 1d4.

(Not that I'd dice twillight, I'd duckpond it cause it sucks Image

And also... WHEN you recieve a better item for a slot that you are currently wearing, you HAND it down.. That way the newbie troll will get some eq too.

/Jegzed

[This message has been edited by Jegzed (edited 05-19-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Jegzed (edited 05-19-2001).]
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Postby Valeos/Dorac » Sat May 19, 2001 10:20 am

Id have to aggree with Jegzed, I prefere the hand out method too. Its a real pisser being 45+ mage who loses bid on a amethyst ring to the 36 mage who came along just for giggles..

Theres always gotta be some sort of ranking while zoning, equip the main people first and stuff gets handed down, instead of half the high ranking people with crap gear while the lucky little first timers are runnign around all spanked out heh.
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Postby cherzra » Sat May 19, 2001 11:06 am

Yeah. Experience should count. Those people who are on most, play their class the best and know eq/xp/zones, -should- get the best eq. The stuff they replace should be handed down to the 'lesser' people (I'm being blunt for clarity's sake), since this is probably better stuff than what they have anyawy. That way everyone is happy. I know for one I'm going to explode when some guy who doesn't know what a trigger is gets that spanky rareload item Image
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Postby Nokie » Sat May 19, 2001 11:34 am

What method does the group leader use to determine if the recipiant is 'worthy' of the item? The characters level? Weather or not the character is friends?

You have to be careful with handouts method because it may be that only the leaders friends always get anything and anyone else is screwed.
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Postby Jorta » Sat May 19, 2001 12:41 pm

I played an evil all last wipe and have to say I enjoyed the handout method, but then I did not buy or sell one piece of eq the entire time I played an evil. Evils are just great a recycling eq. Most people I knew had a backup set of eq and that was it. Not nine sets of backup eq.

I like the 'slot' roll. Only people with chars on that trip that can use the eq can get a slot. No bidding on something that you are actually already using! It's also acceptable for a leader to say at the beginning of a zone: "Hey, Jorta has been really helping out and has been working hard for the group. I just want everyone to know that if we get a leather cap, we are not going to bid on it. I'm just going to give it to Jorta."

In many non-western cultures your status and wealth is based on how much you give, not how much you have. I would recommend that goodies begin the tradition that the warrior who just got that super spanky weapon in a bid hand something down that they already have to participants who did not get anything.

Jorta
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Postby belleshel » Sat May 19, 2001 2:23 pm

For the sake of minimal headaches, I favor method c. Bids should be restricted for useable/needed items only. And using the 1-numer_of_bids system instead of the 1-100 we used. The handout system is perfect for a repeated tight crew, but goodies groups are very dynamic in nature.
c,b,d,a,
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Postby Kiloppile » Sat May 19, 2001 3:59 pm

Selecting who gets the equipment is the best method. If you go with a group leader a couple of times and it's obvious that they're just handing out to their friends and slighting better characters who need the eq... don't go with them again. Simple.
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Postby kwirl » Sat May 19, 2001 5:51 pm

ok - my main point
if you are gonna give stuff out, at LEAST use the dice method jegzed mentioned. the flat out *im giving this to so and so* isnt all that cool, sorry to say. he has an equal chance as everyone else, being friends with the group leader should only matter if everyone is friends.

handout thing sounds good IF it realy works that way. when i started zoning, i was a level 40ish conjurer, i didnt know much, and my eq flat out sucked (i actually used +ss eq)

we go out zoning, i get invite, im kinda excited, and then i see the leader just start handing stuff out, if people HAD given down stuff, it would be cool
instead i see
*Player A puts elemental ring into his portable hole and says - cool, ill level a bard with this*
*Player B puts flammy into bottomless bag of the tinkers and says - cool, ill level a warrior with this*
*Player Me tells Player C - hold on, how does this bid stuff work?*
*Player C tells Player Me - hahaha*

Player Me returns to soloing HP mobs for 3 more months.

-dazok proudwolf
-kwirl karphys

*at least when we solo we never lose bids!*
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Postby kwirl » Sat May 19, 2001 5:53 pm

oh yeah, for the record

zones i lead i will always use the -everyone gets a bid, we summon an elly, and that is how we see winners. losers get to rebid on all items not won in first round. repeatt one more time if needed. after that, all the little crap stays with leader for handouts, or goes to the bard, for handouts, also.

-dazok/kwirl
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Postby Enduil/Raroth » Sat May 19, 2001 6:17 pm

Put all eq in a bp, then pass the bp around in the group. Each player takes one item then pass it on. Group leader decides the order in which to pass the bp.
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Postby Kajib » Sat May 19, 2001 7:50 pm

Handouts! I played duris for about a year, and thats what they did there. While I got screwed a few times, it was still better because the leader should know what hes doing, unless its Gormal, then yer screwed. New people in the group would have to keep grouping with ya, but thats the same with bonus bids. It was pretty discouraging to see casters get twilight and such, so handouts would be the best.
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Postby Kelsiria » Sat May 19, 2001 8:22 pm

I rather like the hand out version of equipment distribution. Granted, I'm usually the bottom of people's hand out list when I've done zones, but others I have zoned with have handed me their no longer needed equipment.

As long as people are are dishing out their no longer needed equipment because they got something better, its a win-win situation.

Whereas, "Touk's bonuses" really is not a good idea. In my years of mudding and zoning, I've been in a Touk group once, in which I got one of these so called bonuses... But... What good is a bonus if you don't group with this individual on regular occasions to use them?

Kelsi
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Postby Varia » Sun May 20, 2001 2:56 am

Bids, no question. Handouts doesnt work unless its almost always the same group. Worries about favoritism will drain morale. Having to deal with different people's opinions on what you need causes friction (eq- wizards can cast fly so youre not allowed to have a fly item). And what if you have say 1 nebula, and the group gets another? Does it go to the newbie who has none? And next group its another newbie who has none, and again and again, and the guy who already has one starts to hate the newbies. Or does it go to the guy who has one already? And then the newbie says "why the hell does he get it, he already has one, i have nothing?". And what if a person already has a set of toys from the zone in question? Is he therefor entitled to nothing even though he came on the run like everyone else, spent the time like everyone else, died like everyone else? Is it his job to spend his sweat and blood equiping anyone poorer than himself "because you already have a set, dont be greedy"? He's supposed to just sit there and be used by people because he's got a set of toys but never allowed to get anything himself? Imagine this- you come from a decent home, you're going to college paid for by your folks, but you decide to get some extra cash by working at mcDonalds. Another person who cant afford college starts work there too. You both work your 40 hour shifts and go to collect your paychecks. The other guys says "hey man, you got a home, a car, and free college, you dont need no more" and snatches your paycheck out of your hand. What would YOU do? Yep, I'd deck the creep. Same applies in the mud. The guy who has a set, or who has more than someone else, worked just as hard on the run as you did, and is just as entitled to toys as anyone else.

Obviously, use a bit of discretion. Dont bid on a second set of something nice till you have a full set of everything from the run, including the crap, unless everyone else already has one too or isnt bidding on it for whatever reason. (eg, you can bid on you second pair of blue steel vambraces even though you dont yet have a full set of icecrag equipment if everyone else already has vambraces too or is for some reason bidding on the greaves that run.) And dont bid on your 3rd set till the second set is complete etc. So yes, you do sometimes have to do a vault run to bid specificly on the silvery war axe, even tho you dont actually want it, just to complete your set. But the principle is sound, and is the only really fair workable method in the long term in any situation where the groups are not stable and always the same.
*hugs*
Varia
Lyt
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Postby Lyt » Sun May 20, 2001 3:27 am

I gotta agree with Varia on this one. I only ever use the bidding system, because it is the only thing that is impartial. Hand outs generally favor the friends of the leader, and I have never been a fan of handing down equipment once you get a new piece UNLESS you choose to do so. There are many times the eq I have is from a quest or has some stat modifier that I like, so just because I get a different set of sleeves or something, doesn't mean that I will never use the ones I am currently using. (ie one set of sleeves is sv spe, while the other is sv para....can switch them out depending on what you are fighting etc.)

As far as bidding goes, I am of the opinion that anyone in the group should be able to bid on any of the items the group got, no matter what the class and level of the person are. I don't care if a warrior bids ont nebula, as long as he was in the group for the kill. As a mage I would bid on things like the warlord crown and surtur crown, because they may be nice for warriors, but they had things which like sv bre and farsee associated with them that are useful for any class.

So I feel that bidding is the best way (if 7 people want an item, dice a 7 sided dice) and any should be able to bid on anything they want. If you don't win don't get mad, just go more to that zone until you finally get what you want. Image

Lyt
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Postby Tasan » Sun May 20, 2001 5:24 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Lyt:
<B>...I only ever use the bidding system, because it is the only thing that is impartial. Hand outs generally favor the friends of the leader, and I have never been a fan of handing down equipment once you get a new piece UNLESS you choose to do so. There are many times the eq I have is from a quest or has some stat modifier that I like, so just because I get a different set of sleeves or something, doesn't mean that I will never use the ones I am currently using. (ie one set of sleeves is sv spe, while the other is sv para....can switch them out depending on what you are fighting etc.)
Lyt</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lyt, *no offense*, but that's probably the main reason that handing out of eq doesn't work. People like you that have to have every possible combination of equipment, and thus bid on everything they could ever possibly need. By not handing down equipment, you just elevate yourself farther and farther above those below you, to where when someone finally needs the other good conjie(or whatever) they don't compare to you, and perhaps the particular zone can't be done. This probably works into those "elitist" situations, and I'm not going to get into that, because it's just a freaking game.

Seriously, I've always thought it was better for the leader to decide who gets what. Leaders have the knowledge to lead, they know who they need to bring to get something done, and they know what kinda rewards to expect. If you want everyone to get a "fair" chance at eq, have them put their time into a group, let them show that they aren't just tagging along pressing buttons over and over. This shows that they have some interest in proving that they are worth the equipment.

People constantly gripe about so-called "n00bs" walking around w/ equipment they bought, or don't deserve, well this is a great way to make sure that doesn't happen.
By handing down equipment, you not only give everyone a "fair" chance at getting something new, you also keep a bond between players that lasts after a group.

You say how only the leaders "friends" will end up getting the best things. Perhaps this is true with some people, but if it becomes that much of a problem, step up to the plate and lead a zone yourself. Lots of people whine and complain about certain people and their methods, but don't have the kahones to lead a zone themselves.

I personally applaud those leaders that reward people that prove themselves worthy. I've lead zones before, and it's not all fun and games to be a leader, sometimes it can be downright frustrating. Obviously those people that can have the knowledge to distribute equipment as best suits another run. Handing down of equipment also makes sense by those people who don't *really* need it, considering the setting. In a serious RP situation, would you expect people to want things they didn't necessarily need? I don't remember a lot of books talking about how much greed was a problem around the entire FR world.

At any rate, I don't think this thread will seriously change anyone's opinions on the subject, and most leaders will choose their own way to distribute.

*dons his flameproof armor*

Twyl, always ready to prove himself before being rewarded unjustly.
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Postby Lyt » Sun May 20, 2001 6:24 am

I have nothing against the leaders who want to hand out equipment. As someone stated before, most of the problems with eq distribution in a group can be taken care of if the leader lets everyone know BEFORE the zone starts how the eq will be split.

As far as handing down equipment goes, it does not make someone an elite or a snob if they keep something that is already theirs. I spend a lot of time doing quests and rares, and if i finish the spider gauntlet quest and get the leggings that go with it (good mage leggings btw) and then i happen to win a bid on some other good mage leggings, there is no way in heck I am going to hand out the piece of quest eq which took me forever to get. Besides, I may get some other piece of eq in the future which would require me to change my combo of eq to preserve a certain stat, such as con, int, etc. Just because I want several pieces of eq for a certain slot does not make me a snob or an elite. It just means that I am prepared for the various situations which can arise in a zone. I have many friends who have played evils, and they have felt the same way. Just because they win a new piece of gear does not mean that they should have to hand down a rare/quest piece of eq.

I do not feel flamed, because you are stating your opinion. But every time I lead a zone, I dice every piece of gear. If someone has 6 nebulas and wins a 7th while everyone else in the group has none, I would probably frown upon that and not invite them back to that zone, but I wouldn't tell them they couldn't bid on it in the first place. If someone wins something new and wants to hand down what they had been wearing, then thats a nice gesture, but under no circumstances would I require them to pass down something that they own just because they got a new toy.

The mud is just like everything else in life. Those that spend more time doing it will generally accumulate more gear than those who don't play as much. Call it capitalism :) While forced redistribution of gear to make everyone feel equal just doesn't fit into the scheme of things if you ask me.

When I first started doing zones like Jot and Brass I never got anything but stuff like the turban of blue flames, and the mithril broadsword. Yeah I wanted to good stuff but that is what happens to new people when you are just starting to zone and the leader is handing out gear. Going to zones repeatedly is the only way to get the stuff you want. Thank you please drive through.

Lyt
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Postby kwirl » Sun May 20, 2001 9:12 am

i think i like varia's posts the best, but i do see a lot of valid points made on this thread. however, i think touk make a good thread here, because this is an issue that will affect a lot of players here. the bidding system, without modifiers for "friends or experience" is the best way to go.

explain to me, what the hell would we laugh at if we didn't have rangers losing bid on gith gaunts 10 times running?

do we give the ranger extra bids? hell no
why? because we are not dicks, and ONE of us will just flat out give it to him, thats why.

but i dont want him to just get it because he has shitty luck. you know why? cuz thats shitty luck for me. period.

ill give him my gaunts, but i dont want him winning them over me just because he keeps bidding "99 on gaunts"

-dazok/kwirl

only used ONE number for bids! always the same number, always! :P

*PS* i have never been bitter about losing a fair bid.

not once.

but i would be if i lost a bid that was geared in another players favor. nothing personal, but id follow varia any day of the week if other leaders were "well, joe my roommate needs a phole, so we dont bid on that"

i lead, too - i dont believe that entitles me to SHIT except the respect of the people who come with me.
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Postby Jasix Prowlingwolf » Sun May 20, 2001 5:19 pm

I can't restist any longer....

I have probably whined, complained and generally kicked up a stink over more eq bids then i care to remember. Why? Because I care about one thing. LEADERS being OPEN, HONEST and just generally FAIR.

Ok kiddies lets discuss them one at a time.

OPEN: One opens ones mouth (or in this case types a little thing we call a say or a gsay e.g. GreatRingStinger group-says, "ok my little freaky Buttriders this eq run we will be using the 'The GreatRingStinger's anyone bids on what ever they want whether they can use it or not, I dont care if my twinky frends hoard another Nebie I have 6 myself' bid system.

This should be done BEFORE the first mob is killed, not during the pre-bid confussion while people ask "what does this item do and whats the stats on that one".

Springing a 'CLAIMED' item on a group during bids is more twinky then selling magic torches to newbie drow on cracker night.

All clear on that one? TELL your group your bid intentions to avoid any confussion later.


HONEST: Some leaders have a hard time with this one. This goes for a few things, I'd have to say the frequent groupies of the leader always have the oppotunity to get in the leaders ear and find out what's being bid on and by who. This is very normal and should be enough of an andvantage for the "But i've clung to this leaders butt for months and have never gotten that item" people to be happy. If you have followed the same leader for 12 Brass runs and never won an Amy ring doesn't mean you should be babbied by the entire group cause your luck just plain sucks. Now if a lvl 50 mage was in Brass wearing scarlet rings I think the leader should have enough balls to tell the group, "Look, Cantbidforshit our estemed gnome enchanter is lvl 50 and never won an Amy ring in 400 Brass runs, does anyone have a problem with us giving it to him?" Now if a lvl 41 ranger whines "but I was only here to bid for the Amy ring" tell him to shut the hell up and bid for something else.

Level and times missing on a bid should play a minor part but it should be fairly serious missfortune to award an item on "bad luck" alone. If your luck sucks keep trying and don't screw others over because of it.

A crime that should be punishable by deletion is when a dishonest leader doesn't even bother worrying what the actual number his Buttriding buddy bids. No matter what the number is unless it's spot on someone elses number the item is magically won by the buttrider of choice by default by the leader. Being tight with some leaders can be very profitable.

Last but not least

FAIR:

Leaders should have the courage to restrict some bids, if you can lead a group for 3 hours, then you should have the courage to do what is right for those that made the effort to follow you. If you can't be fair to them don't ask them to follow you, if you're "just using them" cause your regular crew isn't all there, then reward them for giving you their time with a fair chance to win what they need.

If your letting your twinky friend bid on the Flammy for his lvl 12 warrior, when a lvl 41 warrior is still using a dark steel longsword, then you shold be able to tell people to their face "piss off, you mean nothing to me, i'm just using you to feather my own nest" because thats what your doing.

Bidding for an item for someone not in the group is another 'piss-me-off'. I really only have one exception for this rule, bidding for ones MUD wife or husband. I believe a man should be able to bid for an item for his wife IF they roleplay it as such. Forging the own item for their loved one does make some sence to me in a strange rollplaying way. Bidding for a guild member is probably as twinky as bidding for the lvl 12 warrior. If your in a giuld do the damn zone as a guild and hand the stuff to who needs it. If your guild is too weak to do a zone then why the hell are you in a guild for in the first place? The snappy tittle???

I'm sure when I lead I will break a few of my own rules, I'm only barbaraina err human after all. But i'll try not to be a hypocrite. Leading is stressful and usually gives little in moral reward but if you lead with honour i'm sure you will feel better about leading and your self esteme in general. If you have the need to lie and cheet for your friends to be a good mudder/leader then your probably cheeting them as well other times.

I cold go on and on about when it's appropriate to just hand out eq and when bidding for secondaries is ok etc etc but well i'm sure i have bored you already :P

*que Hill Street Blue theme music

And remeber, Lets have fun out there ok!

Jasix 'Do what I say or F%^$ off' Prowlingwolf
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Postby Gormal » Mon May 21, 2001 12:36 am

I already chatted with Touk about this but i'll post it here.

In my experience with bid restriction you will piss half yer group off if you do and half if you don't. At least thats how it seems.:P Look at an invasion run for instance...theres a whole one caster item in that rareload set. And its put to better use on an anti or pally since casters can just use the roots belt. Are you really going to tell your clerics invokers and enchanters etc that because they can't use it they can't bid on twilight or surtur or something?

So many people bitched last wipe when Varia won twilight. But can you blame him? Its a neat toy and you can bid on regular jot eq any day you want. At least scorps has a more even spread of eq. Though i dearly loved my multiple statless necklaces (god those have horrid ansi btw)

Restricting bids only seems to me to be truly feasible in the middleweight zones, vault, brass, regular jot etc. And only to prevent hoarding then anyway and/or give the lowbies a better chance against the well-eq'd people.

Wow what a lame-sounding rant. Image

:-*
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Postby Hamibugan Sinweaver » Mon May 21, 2001 1:54 am

Bids!!.....BAH

The leader should ALWAYS split, he made the group, led the zone or run and put up with the headaches of ensuring everyones head was on straight at the right time. Of course there are two catches to this. First would be the person who whines incessantly because he didn't get a "fair" shot at a piece of eq that he wanted or thought he needed. Solution-Find someone else to do the zone or piece with and cry to them or realize and trust that the leader is looking at the overall picture of the group and it went where it needed to go and you may be sitting in that spot next time.
Next problem would be the leader who doesn't split fair, doesn't know how to split fair and refuses to split fair. Solution-don't follow him again.

I know from my experience and from the people I play closely with that splits are and never will be an issue, it's the leaders discretion, regardless. I'll never dice a piece of eq or bid on a piece of eq. One of the first traits a leader should have is fairness, and if they do splits will never be an issue.

It's up to the people who really know the zones here to determine this. And if you don't like the way they do it learn it yourself so you can do it your way. If I see a group being put together that I know is going to produce chaos headaches and eventually a crappy split to top it off I'll just plain say no thanks.

Oh, and Lyt the point isn't what is or isn't yours. If you have a nice piece why are you bidding on something that might fill that slot too? That's the point of handing out, I look at Lyt and see he has nice leggings so automatically he's out of the running for them. Yes you worked hard for what you have and maybe you just won that bid, now just don't be surprised when next time you need to put together a group and OverworkedScrewedConjie says no thanks and now you can't do the zone without him, he worked just as hard in that group to earn the right to have a chance to be considered for the leggings as you did, but catch is you already have spanky leggings. If I were in a group someone led and split or bid something to themselves that they already had or had something just as good I'd never go again.
------------------
That is all. Peace.
Hami

[This message has been edited by Hamibugan Sinweaver (edited 05-20-2001).]
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Postby rylan » Mon May 21, 2001 2:04 am

Personally I like the eq handed out by leader, but this only works really well if you are with people you group with a lot. For diffearnt mixes of people, normal bidding seems to work better.
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Postby Hamibugan Sinweaver » Mon May 21, 2001 4:08 am

It works for any group, if the leader puts the group together he knows what he has, all he has to do is look at each person who can use that piece of gear and make the determination himself, has nothing to do with "cliques", it has to do with the sensability and fairness of the leader.

------------------
That is all. Peace.
Hami
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Postby Lyt » Mon May 21, 2001 5:42 am

As I said before, a leader can choose whatever method of eq distribution that he/she wants to. Just make sure you tell the group which you will be doing BEFORE the group starts. Also, there have been certain leaders in the past who would dole out eq in a way which I didn't prefer. So I would chose in the future not to go into zones with that leader. So if you don't like a certain way that eq is given out, no one is forcing you to group with people who chose to do things that way. :)

Lyt
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Postby Hamibugan Sinweaver » Mon May 21, 2001 6:15 am

Precisely Lyt. However, my point to you is the idea of keeping something rather than handing it down, or bidding to fill a slot that is filled, does not make friends of the up and comers or the people you don't regularly group with. If you were with a stacked warrior on an eq run and he was snatching up every piece of warrior eq because he needed it to "tweak his set this way or that" at what point would you say screw it I'm wasting my time?

------------------
That is all. Peace.
Hami
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Postby sok » Mon May 21, 2001 6:42 am

i think eq distribution so far is very bad. i been playing for a while and found that best eq go to any player with S, O, K in their name alway makes group happy. they get so excited they not only come back for more, heck they even give up their best eq to any player with K, O, S in their name.

just my humble opinion Image
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Postby Gindipple » Mon May 21, 2001 6:51 am

Just one thing to add, if you're doing a hard zone and a sitter is required count them in on something, not the biggest baddest item, but be fair. They helped in a different way.

I usually allow the leader to decide whats fair, if they jip you a lot, just don't follow them as much. I like the bidding system myself, gives all a fair chance at an item.

Leaders take on an enormous amount of responsibility. Cheers for those that do lead.
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Postby silvea » Mon May 21, 2001 8:39 am

This is just an idea for an extra option and want to hear comment about it:

Every group member gets 2 bid points and my bid on every piece of eq (the 2 points, not distribute 2 points on 2 items).

Here is only 1 modification on this, if the character is below the zones level or bids on an item he can not use himself.

In case of a vault group, 10 people big, 2 people lvl 31 to learn zone. And 4 people bid on Rhemo Cloak

1) Tim (lvl 50 mage)
2) Bob (lvl 45 warrior)
3) Jack (lvl 45 warrior but bids for friend)
4) Paul (is lvl 31 warrior)

bid would be for rhemo cloak:

d5 for:
1 -> Tim
2 -> Bob
3 -> Bob
4 -> Jack
5 -> Paul

suggestions? remarks?

Almile
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Postby Shevarash » Mon May 21, 2001 8:40 am

Feh, handouts are only good for guilds and really tight knit groups. Varia and others have explained why better than I can.

Touk's bonus bid system, with modifications above, would have to be my favorite choice. It's random and unbiased, but still gives a little extra chance to those who are deserving. It's a great compromise of the two methods.

And btw, are my bonus bids from last wipe still good Cap'n? Image

-- Shevy
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Postby cherzra » Mon May 21, 2001 8:44 am

Damn I didn't know Shevy played a mortal Image
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Postby Jegzed » Mon May 21, 2001 8:56 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Shevarash:
<B>Touk's bonus bid system, with modifications above, would have to be my favorite choice. It's random and unbiased, but still gives a little extra chance to those who are deserving. It's a great compromise of the two methods.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I bid Frostbite!
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Postby ssar » Mon May 21, 2001 11:09 am

Aye, Cap'n.. Let's hunt!


I agree that Touk's bonus bid system is damn good, partly because I know how fair in general he is.

As stated, it's imperative that leaders on big hunts advise the entire group of the bidding process if it isn't clear or simple, especially if there are any special items the group is attempting to get for a certain player(s).

I also like seeing so many different bidding/eq distribution methods by all the big leaders - makes for a fun and varying environment, as long as they are all fair.

As someone said, the good leaders have become leaders through good work on the mud and learning the game well, so they deserve some discretion.

Special items could be for certain classes only, (as long as everyone knows it before the hunt starts) - e.g. twilight should really only go to some player in the hunt at that time that can use it; similarly some kickass mage-only hitpoint ring (eldritch?) should only go to someone in the group that can use it.


Ok, On with the Hunt...


Ohh.. we can smell the Jabberwock..

A bored jabberwock stands here, fighting the spirit elk.
A bored jabberwock begins murmuring something incomprehensible, yet somehow enthralling...
You feel sluggish, caught in a trance by the jabberwock's murmuring...
The Jabberwock's strange burbling sounds overpower you, and you are consumed by confusion!
Mogr throws back his head and cackles with insane glee!
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Postby silvea » Mon May 21, 2001 12:03 pm

The only comment I got to make is that needs to be taken in account for anny group is this:

I have been in groups where we went for an item for 1 person or needed to do a zone to help 1 person with a quest. So we all know from start that the item or quest is for that player. I find this fair and is not a problem. But the problem arises when the other eqwe gather from the zone gets distributed.
If I helped player A to do a spanky quest, he gets the quest item or item needed for the quest, or in some case the regular item becouse its stated before we did go. I find it highly unfair if that same person also can make a bid on regular items. I mean, we all went for that player, and he got his reward. If he does not like the reward he got, he should refund the item(s) he got from the quest and make it availble for all bids. So in my opinion player A should and my not bid. If he get a chance to bid on the left over eq thats fine.... but after everybody else got something.

so in case of that spider gauntlet quest. If I was leading you only would have gotten the quest items and nothing more...... But you would be sure you would get the quest items.

Almile
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Postby cherzra » Mon May 21, 2001 12:37 pm

That's good, because there is nothing else there, just the 2 quest items Image
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Postby imp » Mon May 21, 2001 2:03 pm

I dont give a foo what method as long as I know the deal BEFORE we head off to get the stuff, pretty lame when ppl are left w/o bids or whatever for various reasons and NOT told in advance.

/Bogra
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Postby Jegzed » Mon May 21, 2001 2:19 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by imp:
<B>I dont give a foo what method as long as I know the deal BEFORE we head off to get the stuff, pretty lame when ppl are left w/o bids or whatever for various reasons and NOT told in advance.

/Bogra</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its easy.. Image You play an evil don't you?

/Jegzed
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Postby Dalar » Mon May 21, 2001 7:28 pm

has anybody addressed the time a bidder has been in the group?

for example:
Bob's group has had the same 13 people w/ him for 6 hours doing some zone.
Bill hops in the last 20 min.
does bill get a bid even though he might have done like one kill?

solutions?


Dalar
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Postby Garosh » Mon May 21, 2001 7:32 pm

Usually seniority in a group would get items before a newbie to the group..Recommendation is to make that well known to the new person before he joins the group.
Gets tricky, if you get an item only the newbie can use though, and someone else wanted for his secondary..
oh well..Gotta work out all these things as a group beforehand..Which is the biggest benefit of guilds, and probably why most are formed...and that is to distribute the wealth to fellow guildmembers so that the guild grows in strength, and guildmembers repay the favor by helping others get items.
Loyalty, yeah..thats the ticket..

Garosh,
formerly Guildmaster of Legion of Chaos, all those eons ago.
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Postby Ssarra » Mon May 21, 2001 8:09 pm

A secondary should be just that, a secondary. When a group goes out, the equipment should be distributed to the people who can use it on their primary chars. If no one needs it, then give it up for someones secondary. If Bob is a newbie, and needs a ring that was picked up, he should get it if no one else needs it for their prime. Someone with seniority shouldn't get it for their secondary if newbie bob needs it. This allows equipment to be spread across a wider range of people in the mud. Just a thought.
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Postby Wobb » Mon May 21, 2001 8:30 pm

Just a Little FYI:

http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000234.html

(Was all brought up before on a post by Myre/Zajan)...heh before the mud even opened.

Wobb
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Postby Guest » Mon May 21, 2001 8:51 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Shevarash:
Feh, handouts are only good for guilds and really tight knit groups. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But, the point stands that for tight-knit groups, they are HIGHLY effective. On Toril, when evil numbers were smaller (no yuan, drow or orcs) handouts and handdowns were the chosen method of distributing eq and kept everyone satisfied on just about every eq run. With evil numbers being higher now, I imagine the evil eq groups will be more diverse from one boot to the next, so that method may not work as well. In the end, I think no matter how you do, you're bound to piss off somebody. It becomes a question of how good you are at mollifying that person's feelings.

--D2
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Postby Nalar » Mon May 21, 2001 11:18 pm

I would have to say that the Toukbid system is the best way to go. It doesn't directly favor anyone, but it gives the people that have grouped with Touk or other leaders using his sytem a little bit of an edge in the bid. I grouped with Touk quite a bit last wipe, and amassed quite a few toukbids. While I may have had 5 bids on a single item (back when it was 5), other people have some stored up Toukbids also, and if 10 people are bidding on an item a 10% chance isn't THAT much better than a 5% chance of winning an item.

I also played a high level evil last wipe, and I have to say that the handout system was pretty discouraging. I once did 14 eq groups in a row without seeing one piece of equipment, when people that were lower level than me would receive it. This is one of the reasons that I switched over to playing a goodie, everything seemed much more fair. I don't think evils can continue with handouts, because as their player base broadens, and the groups become more randomized, it will be harder for leaders to keep track of who has done what, and the people that don't group with them that often probably won't get anything from them. Players newer to the evil scene (like me last wipe) will get discouraged, just like Varia said. It made me mad enough to give up on a lvl 47 character to start all over again as a goodie.

All said, toukbids seem to be the best way to go. While not totally randomized, no one has an advantage that cannot be gained after doing 1-2 groups with the same leader. This system is the most fair to newer players and older players alike.

-Nalar-
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Postby Hamibugan Sinweaver » Mon May 21, 2001 11:58 pm

It has nothing to do with who has grouped where how many times, it has to do with who has what in that group at that given moment and how long each person has been in THAT particular zone/run group. If say Jegzed (who I mud with constantly everywhere) jumps into an eq run that has been going for three hours, he certainly isn't going to get a caster item that we've already gotten and probably be second if not third in line for any future ones. He knows it and I as the leader know it, it's common sense, it wouldn't be right if he did. With some morals and some common sense handouts save SO much time and argument. By the time the zone/run is done the leader already knows who is going to get what it's split and off we go to the next project.

I don't know why I keep advocating this, I know how it works where I play and so do the people I play with. Image It's ultimately going to be up to the leader of any group anyhow, if they know how to be fair it doesn't matter. And if they don't.....well find another cleric I say. Image

------------------
That is all. Peace.
Hami
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Postby Lyt » Tue May 22, 2001 1:03 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Hamibugan Sinweaver:
<B>Precisely Lyt. However, my point to you is the idea of keeping something rather than handing it down, or bidding to fill a slot that is filled, does not make friends of the up and comers or the people you don't regularly group with.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just have to disagree with you on this. We all mud for selfish reasons. For me it is to entertain myself in some of my free time. No where do I see where it is my responsibility to help the "up and coming" mudders as you put it. If I CHOSE to hand out some extra eq that I have, then that is by my choice and I chose who I give it to.

When I started on this mud I was under level 20 for my first year. I did not care because I was having fun and I did not ask for handouts from people who had the nice eq at the time. When I finally started doing zones I did not expect people who won gear to hand out their old stuff to me. When you buy a new car do you feel obligated to give your old one to someone who doesn't have one? I don't. Yes my example is on a much larger scale than the mud, but I am trying to make a point. The best mudders on Sojourn are those that have taught themselves how to mud, and have worked for the stuff that they have. I include myself in this category. Those that work for everything that they get have a much greater understanding of how this mud works, and are better mudders when they start to zone. Those that expect handouts for everything are more of a hinderance to groups in zones than a help.

Yes I may not make a lot of friends with newer people who didn't happen to win their bid, but then again I say that it is not my job to make them all happy each time they get to zone.

Lyt -Ebenezer Scrooge-
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Postby Korik » Tue May 22, 2001 2:15 am

Since I'm new to the MUD could someone post a description of how the bid system works on Sojourn?

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