Questions on ress

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cherzra
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Questions on ress

Postby cherzra » Sat Jun 09, 2001 12:09 pm

I have some questions which I hope the staff can answer...


1) When you get ressurected, there's always the chance of a permanent con drain. I know we all try to wear +con eq to reach 100 con before we get ressed - is this really worth it, or is it no use? Does the code check your naked natural con, or your con with any eq you might be holding/using?

2) This continues along the previous question... when you are ressed, is it ok the be ressed again right after? Or should you wait till your stats are normal again? Really saves time (or not Image)knowing this if you have 4 corpses waiting.

I hope you can answer question 1) anyway, perm ress drain is a real nasty thing and any chance to reduce it would be appreciated by us Image

C.
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Postby Calladore » Sat Jun 09, 2001 3:07 pm

What I would really like to know, is why does this have to permently possibly destroy your char. Why not code it so it lasts a mud year or something but takes away 20 con. Just so you know your character isn't hurt FOREVER just because of drain. I guess they will say, 'you got revive now' and that may be ok too. But the losing hps on dying under 25 is silly to.
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Postby Wargar » Sat Jun 09, 2001 4:11 pm

I would rather lose 1 con permanently than 10+ for 2 weeks :P.

Not sure how it's exactly coded Cherz, but I was one of the people that never waited for ress affect to leave before getting a ress (90% of mine came at a 20 con due to affect) and I lost 1 (that I recall, we'll say 3 max tho)point of con over 4 years. (Oddly enough, it was while my con was 100)

I personally don't think drain checks your con at all, I'd guess it's based on Kharma or Luck rolls.. some hidden (and/or equally illogical) number.

Would be nice to have the real answer tho.
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Postby Lyt » Sat Jun 09, 2001 9:27 pm

Well you also had the ressers who would cast vig on themselves to restore all of their movement points before ressing someone else as well. Some clerics would swear that they would never fail a ress or drain someone when they did that. Is this another urban legend or does this affect things as well?

Lyt
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Postby Raiwen » Sun Jun 10, 2001 5:24 am

I think I caused 3 drains on ALL the res's I ever cast. And I did cast that spell an awful lot. I didn't have perfect wis (it took two +9 cloaks to get me to 100 wis... think I had like an 86 wis. I never waited for full moves, I never really wore +wis eq before casting it. In fact many times I cast it without any eq at all (after a heavy CR from a zone).

I also had an 88 con, and I NEVER wore +con before I received a res, and I never lost a con point.

So, I don't think the drain is related to anything but luck. Maybe skill, I do know that many old school clerics had good skills and we didn't cause drains that often. Though there were many new clerics and they didn't cause many drains either.

Maybe if someone knows of a pleveled cleric that had really bad skills, they could comment on whether they caused allot of drains or not.

Anyways, my opinion is that it's pure luck.
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Postby Uthgar » Sun Jun 10, 2001 11:56 pm

Res fail is not random. It is based upon your constitution. You make a roll vs your chance of surviving the res. An ultra-crappy roll results in failed res, a bad roll in stat drain, and success in a normal res. Most people would have that result sequence in a different order (and may assume it was), but that is why drains seem somewhat random. The drain result is a very narrow band of results that all players have vulnerability to, no matter what their con.

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Postby Lyt » Mon Jun 11, 2001 12:25 am

But is that based on your natural con, or the con you have at the time the ress occurs. We still don't know if it helps to be wearing con gear for the ress. Does cleric mv points affect it at all?

Lyt
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Postby Uthgar » Mon Jun 11, 2001 1:44 am

Con at the time, and no mvs have nothing to do with it. Come on, all that is just crazy mudder superstition. How could that make any sense?


Heh. I think I phrased the above badly. Your con at the time is the sole determinant of success or fail. The rest is superstition.

[This message has been edited by Uthgar (edited 06-11-2001).]
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Postby Kiloppile » Mon Jun 11, 2001 3:51 am

Personally, I don't think con at the time of ress is all that superstitious. There are probably two ways to look up con, one the base, and one the effective. You could either intentionally use the effective con or even do it accidentally.
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Postby Raiwen » Mon Jun 11, 2001 4:00 am

If con at time of res is the factor, then two things pop into mind.

(1) CON EFFECTS RES AND DRAIN: if you rolled a REALLY bad con for your character, then you have several things going against you: you die since you have less hps, you fail res more often, conversly you drain more often, thus less con and less hps, then the cycle starts again.

(2) CON EFFECTS RES NOT DRAIN: Uthgar said that "all players" have this risk. Does this mean low con and high con differ only in the overall success of the res? Therefore all players have the same risk of drain, since it is a "band" of results?

My point is this *numbers from thin air*:

The overall success of the res may be dependant upon your con at the time of casting. However, if the drain is based on a band of results, then it seems that every player has the same chance of drain regardless of their con if the band of results remains constant. Therefore, wearing +con may only decrease your chance of getting a corpse, not really of drain.

*number section*
It may be a 10% chance of drain on every actual resurection. Therefore, if you do get raised, you have a 10% chance of losing a con point. If you have 20% chance of res, you get a corpse 80% of the time. However, once you are raised, there is a 10% chance you'll drain.
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Postby Tzat » Mon Jun 11, 2001 5:53 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kiloppile:
Personally, I don't think con at the time of ress is all that superstitious. There are probably two ways to look up con, one the base, and one the effective. You could either intentionally use the effective con or even do it accidentally.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right. I'm pretty sure what Uthgar is saying is that con at the time is what counts. Read the post carefully. Image He answers first question then comma, then answers second.


Summary: Yup the higher your con, the less you will fail res. Seems like wearing +con eq as you are being ressed does help somewhat. Regardless of con you can still drain, seems unlikely that con affects chance of drain -- though this was not specified.

Tzat <-- wishes it was base con so he didnt have to bother with +con junk, oh well.
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Postby Kiloppile » Mon Jun 11, 2001 6:37 am

Ah... yer right... he was being *awfully* brief, though. Image
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Postby rylan » Mon Jun 11, 2001 12:20 pm

As a cleric I would swear that spellcast/specialize healing skill helped reduce chance of stat drain. Waaay back (maybe 4-5 years ago) when stats were messed up, some gods were doing manual stat fixes for high lvl chars. Once I got that done to Rylan, I don't think anyone got a stat drain from res.

I'll have to wait until I get res this time around though, since all the new code interacts differantly now. Way back then also, I noticed that if I missed QC on res, then it seemed to fail raising the person more (so I'd just abort and recast if I missed QC).
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Postby Ssarra » Mon Jun 11, 2001 8:23 pm

I had always wondered about the +con eq. If ress did take a con drain on you, they how would wearing +10 worth of con eq help? If it put you at 100, then you lost 1 con point, that put you at 99, then you remove eq, your at 89, where you were originally at 90.... you loose the damn point anyways! Never made any sense to me. hehe.
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Postby Wargar » Tue Jun 12, 2001 12:53 am

Hey Uth, can you give is some solid facts on the numbers? Or hell, even a rough guess. I mean, is it a scale system? (eg: 1-30 con = 80% chance of fail, 31-60 = 70%, 61- etc etc)

Is it a total random number system? (You have 99 con.. random number generates, and you have a 1% chance to fail?.. 30 con = 70% chance to fail etc?)

Let's not forget that you can "fail" a ress w/o getting drained too.. is a drain a "critical" fail, or is a completely different code?

Come on Uth, fill us in!


Wargar <-- with ress affect still _very_ rarely drained, and rarely failed ress.
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Postby Tzat » Tue Jun 12, 2001 1:27 am

He already did answer a bunch of your questions in his posts. Drain is not a critical fail, its a better roll than a fail etc.
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Postby Uthgar » Tue Jun 12, 2001 2:29 am

I started to write a long post to reply further to this thread, but realized all the info I wanted to put out was already posted. So, reread what I wrote and figure it out. (No, no exact numbers will be forthcoming).

Uthgar
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Postby Wobb » Tue Jun 12, 2001 4:33 pm

If you were just ressed. Don't get ressed again, right away. Wait until you are back up to 100%.

Uthgar's posts explain this...but he never went out right and said don't do it.

Every resu I did (as a cleric) failed if the person was just ressed. (and I had 100 con/wis ((as the cleric)))

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Postby Ssarra » Tue Jun 12, 2001 5:30 pm

So basically, have high con to survive the ress, and that's it. If the ress fails and there is a stat drain, the con doesn't affect that. Con affects the ress success, not the result of the ress.
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Postby Selias » Tue Jun 12, 2001 5:47 pm

Alright, this is what I'm getting from this post...

Con does affect ress outcome... and there are one of three outcomes

best: Normal Ress
middle: Ress w/drain
worst: Failed Ress

Well that's how the dice come out to be, because Uthgar said that a drain is what happens if the roll is just a bit higher than a failed ress. Maybe this should be changed?
Also, I'm confused as to who's con matters, the person being ressed or the cleric casting the spell? I'm pretty sure it's the person being ressed who matters, but does the cleric's con also matter?

Sorry for being dense,
Sel
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Jun 12, 2001 7:39 pm

I assume the person being ressed. The cleric's con shouldn't make a difference.. that wouldn't make any sense. The roll is the equivalent of the System Shock roll in D&D.

- Ragorn
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Postby Sekon/Fanil » Tue Jun 12, 2001 9:23 pm

The way I read it Con ONLY affects Sucess or fail of the res. NOT the chance of drain.
So everyone hase the exact same odds of gettin drained.
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Postby Wargar » Tue Jun 12, 2001 10:08 pm

Current Con affects whether you fail a ress, and in a seperate roll whether you drain(?), is a pretty broad statement...

What I wanted is basically:

Does Racial Con figure in? (As a Barbarian Warrior with 20 con (ress affect), I rarely failed ress, and almost never drained. (20 con for barb is around 60 for human? is that why I got so lucky? So gnomes/halflings have a higher chance to fail than ogre/troll etc?)

If racial con didn't save me from fail/drain, what did? That would mean (most likely) the formula isn't a simple con = % chance to succeed (or I should have played the lotto more if it did!).. so exactly how much DOES con affect ress fail?

Thats the numbers I wanted, and Uthgar said he can't give out.

Unless the ress fail code has changed since Toril, my advice would be don't bother with the superstitious crap: ress asap and get back to the zone.
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Postby Tzat » Wed Jun 13, 2001 2:12 am

hehehe

This is it:
1 roll. based on con. seems logical that racial con modifiers would be included, just like with everything else.
There are 3 "regions" in the roll, failed res, drain res, sucess res. drain res is a small region between the other two.

So, low con will mean greater chance of failure, however, even a high con will still have some chance of failure, meaning that the second drain region still exists. Seems like everyone's chance to drain is the same, albeit quite low.

Its basically irrelevant that drain is a "better" roll than fail...its all just stats and drain is a lower chance...so it doesn't need to be changed imho (unless you think high con should mean less chance to fail than your buddies.)

ok, that should be crystal clear now :P (heh)
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Postby Wargar » Wed Jun 13, 2001 3:41 am

**** Add some whitty retort here directed at the simpletons - I deleted mine. *****

Simplified:

The code is fine, it works well and has for years.. I didn't realize ppl were lobbying to have it changed. I myself am just curiuos.

The inside question that apparently slipped thru my hastily created posts:

Does anybody have knowledge of the actual formula used in the code? I'm obviously curiuos as to the _exact_ mechanics involved, for my own personal information.
If I had a copy of Torils code still I would look it up.. I don't, so instead I ask here.

(That's my attempt to respond w/o sarcasm or flames - I hope it made things crystal clear) (heh)

Wargar

[This message has been edited by Wargar (edited 06-12-2001).]
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Postby Tzat » Wed Jun 13, 2001 4:24 am

My post was a little more sarcastic than i intended. Sorry bout that.
It was not only responding to your post Wargar, basically it just seemed to me that a lot of the people were asking the same questions over and over...sometimes asking what seemed to me to have been clearly answered before. Anyway, i meant no insult or anything Image

Added this:
I see now that you are looking for more specifics than I have certainly --actual mechanics and such. Unfortunately I no idea on that.

[This message has been edited by Tzat (edited 06-13-2001).]
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Postby Mplor » Thu Jun 14, 2001 1:16 am

Disclaimer: What follows is completely based on observation, and may or may not have any basis in fact. My conclusions explain my observations in-game, but so could any number of other conclusions/formulae.


In order to understand the resurrection procedure you must calculate your base_con.

apparent_con * race_modifier * class_modifier = base_con

Apparent_con is exactly what you see on your attributes display.

Possible race_modifiers:
Halfling 0.77
Human 1.00
Barbarian 1.18
Ogre 1.50

Possible class_modifiers:
Warrior 1.30
Cleric 1.10
Rogue 0.80

Two characters with the same base_con will have exactly the same chance as any other player, regardless of class or race, of either a 1) successful ress, 2) ress with drain, or 3) failed ress.

As for what the exact chances are, I imagine a formula similar to this one:

1d100 * {base_con * .01} = ress_result
If ress_result = 1-5, then fail.
If ress_result = 6-7, then drain.
If ress_result = 6+, then success.

Play with the math and you see that Halflings have a much greater chance of failure than an ogre. Human invokers have a greater chance of failure than human warriors.

I'm certain the modifiers and formula are off a bit cuz i've done the math and there are some problems, leading me to consider that class_modifier is applied only at character creation and that, in fact, base_con = apparent_con * race_modifier. Who knows, tho. Hopefully this is a decent outline of th
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Postby Gormal » Thu Jun 14, 2001 8:12 am

Mplor we miss you goonda Image
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Postby Nokie » Thu Jun 14, 2001 1:09 pm

Mplor, sucks to be a halfling rogue and want a res!
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Postby Wobb » Thu Jun 14, 2001 1:24 pm

>>Also, I'm confused as to who's con matters, the person being ressed or the cleric casting the spell? I'm pretty sure it's the person being ressed who matters, but does the cleric's con also matter?

In short, Yes cleric's con and wis matter.

In my previous post, I mean to add:
The person getting ressed, THEIR con is what affects a fail outright. So if you just got ressed, dont get ressed again.

My little point above about a cleric's con wasn't explained:

If you are a cleric and have 65 con...you will drain people. A cleric's wis and con factor in to how resu's work. (or at least they seemed to...) as a warrior, the only times I ever failed was from a cleric who had low con. I'm not sure if low con=failure possibility and low wis=drain possibility .....but they seemed to affect it during Toril.

Perhaps an IMM could enlighten us some more on that? (not sure how much it matters all you clerics should be going for CON stats when you roll anyways!)

Wobb
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Postby Jegzed » Thu Jun 14, 2001 2:02 pm

Last wipe when evils pleveled chak to 46 in a week or so he failed like every 2nd ress.

I suspected it was because his skills were not up to par compared with a regularly leveled cleric.

/Jegzed
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Postby Tzat » Thu Jun 14, 2001 2:08 pm

Posted by Uthgar above:

"Your con at the time is the sole determinant of success or fail. The rest is superstition."

?

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