We have watched the goods and evils rise to power since we opened, and
observe many things. You are doing better and better as time progresses and
learning alot. I also think that you guys are not 100% yet in your combat
strategies and tactics. People are making mistakes in battles, and these
more than ANY aspect of a zone cause the majority of the deaths. I think
these factors make the zones seem harder than they really are. Its like
anything in life, once you've riden the bike a few times, it becomes easy.
This is expected, the mud is still new and many of the people and zones are
also new - it will take time to master it. Until that day, you have to
accept the fact that you are going to die in zones. It happens, its part of
the game. Avoiding hard zones and not exploring will certainly mean less
deaths, but also much less victories and neat equipment. Unfortunatley, what
it also leads to falling back on the old tactic of taking armies into zones,
despite our efforts to code it out.
I have received disturbing reports and read threads here on the bbs that
players are taking multiple groups out to get the total group size up to as
many as 28 people against a single zone. This is incrediblye dangerous and
Must be stopped.
The entire basis for combat on Sojourn3 is centered around a single group of
people no more than 15 strong. As soon as you go over that you have
completely unbalanced the combat engine, you have Too much strength and
numbers for Any zone to withstand you. What it means is that groups end up
doing hard zones in short time periods with minimal losses. It pumps huge
amounts of valuable equipment into the game Too fast, and will destroy the
value of all equipment. I have seen it Many times in the past on many muds -
Its an extreme danger to the long-term enjoyability of the game.
If left un-checked, we will end up with the same bullshit balance we had on
S2 - in which huge groups annhilated all but a few select zones which had
been beefed up to withstand armies - and were totally un-doable by normal
full-sized groups. The equipment distribution was horrific, and the game
largely denounced by its population. I do Not agree with the idea that it
will "tone down" over time. Look at our own history in Toril and Sojourn 2.
In both cases, huge groups quickly became the standard and it remained that
way throughout. It will happen again if we dont stop it. It already is.
Because of this very problem, we committed ourselves to limiting group-sizes
to 15, so that we could balance all of the zones against a known amount
number of players. We spent Alot of time testing, debating, studying, and
formulating combat around the 15 person group on Sojourn 3. We took huge
amounts of player feedback, and molded the game to what we think is a very
fine balance. Some zones are still not perfect of course, but the majority
of all zones are balanced right against the 15 person group save for Tiamat.
I have received Very little negative feedback, its almost all positive and
the players love the game again - for the most part.
If you want to stay in this new, better situation, we MUST MUST MUST stop 30
person groups. Its the perverbial crack in the dam, and I personally WILL
NOT stand idle and watch the balance of zones and equipment be destroyed. I
feel that the future of the mud hangs in the balance on this!
Unless there are some REALLY good arguments, we need to make it law that
players are forbidden to take multiple groups into zones. One group is the
limit and they should NOT use support groups that follow along a main group to
bolster the group strength. If they take multiple groups in, they will be
asked to break them up, and for one to leave.
This will be unpopular, and I don't expect anyone to rise up and throw
flowers at me over it. But I know from 12 years experience in running
muds and from what we personally experienced on Toril/S2 what Not
acting in this cases means to the future of the game. If some zones are
absolutely too hard to do with 15 people given adequate time, then its our
job to fix them and we will. If we keep to single groups, we stand a good
chance of keeping the balance for years to come.
As this is something that affects the mud, feel free to post your opinions.
We'll consider everything said equally before determining our course.
Sojourn Forever,
Miax
Group Size Limits
-
Guest
The most fun I ever had on this mud, in any of it's incarnations, was playing a duergar before we were allowed to have contact with any other races. I played to level 24 with truly 'newbie' gear. It was harder, I thought the gods were dumb for isolating us, and I put a lot more time into that character than any other.
Looking back, I relish that experience. It was so much more rewarding and exciting to get a level or pick up a new spanky piece of equipment than it had been before, or would be after.
Now I want all the beefy eq too, but it wouldn't bother me at all if I had to do it in a small group and run the risk of getting my ass kicked.
Perhaps changing pcorpse rot time, or changing preserve to lich's preserve spell, or any of the other suggestions I've seen in ideas/feedback about corpse/eq restitution, would ease people's minds about tackling zones with a smaller team.
"What? oh,..no, my nose is always that color."
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·Kuurg·
Looking back, I relish that experience. It was so much more rewarding and exciting to get a level or pick up a new spanky piece of equipment than it had been before, or would be after.
Now I want all the beefy eq too, but it wouldn't bother me at all if I had to do it in a small group and run the risk of getting my ass kicked.
Perhaps changing pcorpse rot time, or changing preserve to lich's preserve spell, or any of the other suggestions I've seen in ideas/feedback about corpse/eq restitution, would ease people's minds about tackling zones with a smaller team.
"What? oh,..no, my nose is always that color."
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·Kuurg·
I totally agree with this. My only complaint to the rule has been that if group limit is 15 than zones have to be tailor made to suit 15 man groups. The majority of zones in the game are very doable with 15 man groups (perhaps all of them not now or in the immediate future, but thats what doing easier zones and building your character up is about. Only a few select zones I foresee being undoable with a 15 man group, but these are all zones we have no business being in now anyways.
I have participated in some of the armies and I must confess I hate it. Having to communicate by says between groups is lame.
It also makes zones that should be much more difficult and take much more time get rolled through. I realize people want everything they once had right away, but part of the fun of mudding is still wanting it and if its all yours already how fun is it really.
Anyways.. great idea and look forward to getting some exp finally while zoning (the joy of being in the invokerless group).
Kiluk
I have participated in some of the armies and I must confess I hate it. Having to communicate by says between groups is lame.
It also makes zones that should be much more difficult and take much more time get rolled through. I realize people want everything they once had right away, but part of the fun of mudding is still wanting it and if its all yours already how fun is it really.
Anyways.. great idea and look forward to getting some exp finally while zoning (the joy of being in the invokerless group).
Kiluk
As one who, fairly early on, led a sizable group to smite the eternals, I feel compelled to comment.
A bunch of level 20's (and many of us, myself included, not even 20 yet) decided to take out level 40 Eternal Warriors (which come in groups of two or more, assist, are warrior flagged, etc.) Since in previous incarnations, such groups had sometimes met with disaster, I prepared myself for the worst, getting ready to remind everyone which way to flee should the tanks die, and so on. I was pleasantly surprised when we spanked the mobs to kingdom come with a group of 14 (including myself). No eq came out of this, but it was fun to do, all the more so because these mobs are almost never done.
I began to wonder. How was it that groups in the previously eq-laden Toril, could be decimated and strewn across the hillsides by the very same mobs, and yet an underequipped, rusty group of adventurers could now thrash and spank without mercy, stopping only when spells ran out?
Eq is bad. Now this is heresy in the powermudding realm, but let's think about it seriously. If everyone has ubereq, and can reliably cheeze ARE mad mobs, what's the point of it all? This is, in part, why they had to give out artifacts to distinguish hardcore players. But for many, especially those who have never had to make do, eq is really like a crutch. Now, the idea is to reduce the power and amount eq, reduce the reliance on eq, and take away the necessity of artifacts.
True, everyone likes to kvetch some about how powered-down a lot of eq is now, but from what I've seen it also puts the fear of God in them, so to speak, and they take fewer needless risks. As Chauntea once said in the FR books, "a hard life can also be a good life."
Insofar as the armies raised to do zones: I can personally understand an army of heroes being needed for Tia, although some experts now say only 1/3 of the people are actually needed. But an army for Jot, or hell? That seems to be excessive. (why would people join such a group anyhow? The chance of getting eq is a lot less... Maybe they're just bored and want something to do?) A group of 15 or so should be quite sufficient for all normal intents and purposes, and was even excessive for what I did.
So this is what I propose: the next few times Miax or any other admin logs on and finds cross-grouping in, say, Jot (which can be done with about 8 people and often is with less), they can global something like 'if you want to be an army, I'll find a more suitable opponent for you' and trans them all to Tiamat. Or maybe a room with a few tarresques in them. =) That makes a clear statement: no cross-grouping unless you really itch to fight something huge. Perhaps this could even be coded?
Of course, Miax's point seems to be that he shouldn't *have* to intervene, and we should all stay in line, but there is no such thing as a perfect society. Conflict of vision between players and imms, it seems, will always be with us.
Wow, that was long, but I've been away for a while. My two pieces of bark.
A bunch of level 20's (and many of us, myself included, not even 20 yet) decided to take out level 40 Eternal Warriors (which come in groups of two or more, assist, are warrior flagged, etc.) Since in previous incarnations, such groups had sometimes met with disaster, I prepared myself for the worst, getting ready to remind everyone which way to flee should the tanks die, and so on. I was pleasantly surprised when we spanked the mobs to kingdom come with a group of 14 (including myself). No eq came out of this, but it was fun to do, all the more so because these mobs are almost never done.
I began to wonder. How was it that groups in the previously eq-laden Toril, could be decimated and strewn across the hillsides by the very same mobs, and yet an underequipped, rusty group of adventurers could now thrash and spank without mercy, stopping only when spells ran out?
Eq is bad. Now this is heresy in the powermudding realm, but let's think about it seriously. If everyone has ubereq, and can reliably cheeze ARE mad mobs, what's the point of it all? This is, in part, why they had to give out artifacts to distinguish hardcore players. But for many, especially those who have never had to make do, eq is really like a crutch. Now, the idea is to reduce the power and amount eq, reduce the reliance on eq, and take away the necessity of artifacts.
True, everyone likes to kvetch some about how powered-down a lot of eq is now, but from what I've seen it also puts the fear of God in them, so to speak, and they take fewer needless risks. As Chauntea once said in the FR books, "a hard life can also be a good life."
Insofar as the armies raised to do zones: I can personally understand an army of heroes being needed for Tia, although some experts now say only 1/3 of the people are actually needed. But an army for Jot, or hell? That seems to be excessive. (why would people join such a group anyhow? The chance of getting eq is a lot less... Maybe they're just bored and want something to do?) A group of 15 or so should be quite sufficient for all normal intents and purposes, and was even excessive for what I did.
So this is what I propose: the next few times Miax or any other admin logs on and finds cross-grouping in, say, Jot (which can be done with about 8 people and often is with less), they can global something like 'if you want to be an army, I'll find a more suitable opponent for you' and trans them all to Tiamat. Or maybe a room with a few tarresques in them. =) That makes a clear statement: no cross-grouping unless you really itch to fight something huge. Perhaps this could even be coded?
Of course, Miax's point seems to be that he shouldn't *have* to intervene, and we should all stay in line, but there is no such thing as a perfect society. Conflict of vision between players and imms, it seems, will always be with us.
Wow, that was long, but I've been away for a while. My two pieces of bark.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Vassar:
Eq begotten from skillful zoning is exponentially more fun than with a large group. A 15 man group limit is more than enough imo.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah, that summarizes what I just said. Tia aside, 15 players is enough of an army already. Good that most seem to be in agreement here.
Eq begotten from skillful zoning is exponentially more fun than with a large group. A 15 man group limit is more than enough imo.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah, that summarizes what I just said. Tia aside, 15 players is enough of an army already. Good that most seem to be in agreement here.
i cant remember too many times when we had more t han 15 people for anything besides jot invasion and maybe CC if the mix was wrong.
and as miax said if you can prove to them that 15 is not enough for a certain zone, or even for a particular quest in a nasty zone, let t hem know and i'm sure they'll do something about it. the gods are not as unapproachable as they used to be.
and as miax said if you can prove to them that 15 is not enough for a certain zone, or even for a particular quest in a nasty zone, let t hem know and i'm sure they'll do something about it. the gods are not as unapproachable as they used to be.
Actually moritheil, IMHO the cheesing lately is at least partially due to changes in spells. Lotta casters have some interesting utilities added to their dmg spells. I'm not saying im against em. I love spell utility over dmg. I'd say the mud is more creative now. It just lends itself to alot of interesting combinations not possible before. Mainly, stunning and blinding etc. Come to think of it, alot of rogue abilities/poisons fall under this category. You all know the kind of stuff i mean. Yeah, more ppl know where to get eq. That's true, but I think alot of it is cheesed. Hey, I know ppl who do it and I dont really care. They're playin the game and are masters at using the system as far as I am concerned.
I've got to say that I agree 100% with what Miax is saying here.
In the long run it'll make the MUD a much much more balanced and enjoyable place.
I've been playin' muds for about 7 years now, and the problem of groups bringing enough people to unbalance any given zone has completely ruined many of the games I've played.
And yes, some players may hate Miax for trying to prevent them from twinking zones.
But guess what, it says something about this place that he'll do what he feels is necessary for the _long-term_ playability of the game.
I applaud his decision. Yes, later on I might be cursing cause our (only) 15-man army gets spanked a few times, but hell, isn't CRing part of the game? People that want everything easy and handed to them on a platter probably shouldn't be playing here.
------------------
-<(#)>- Xebes makes your heart start to race REAL FAST!
In the long run it'll make the MUD a much much more balanced and enjoyable place.
I've been playin' muds for about 7 years now, and the problem of groups bringing enough people to unbalance any given zone has completely ruined many of the games I've played.
And yes, some players may hate Miax for trying to prevent them from twinking zones.
But guess what, it says something about this place that he'll do what he feels is necessary for the _long-term_ playability of the game.
I applaud his decision. Yes, later on I might be cursing cause our (only) 15-man army gets spanked a few times, but hell, isn't CRing part of the game? People that want everything easy and handed to them on a platter probably shouldn't be playing here.
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-<(#)>- Xebes makes your heart start to race REAL FAST!
15 man groups are a good thing and all... I just think its a little early this wipe to be limiting group size to 15. We should be able to get away with this for a little bit longer till we start seeing more level 50 people pop up in my opinion. Also... have fun doing Avernus within the 3 week time frame with a 15 man group there goodies... being as you guys were already scared to go before this announcement.
-Jaznolg
-Jaznolg
I can't wait to see Gods punishing mortals for bringing more then 15 once guilds go in. Sorry <guildmember>, but you just cna't come because the Gods have decreed that this game is all about equipment and not about having fun with your friends.
When all the new area spells and crap were added it lowered the need for as many people as before...now you expect people to all be hardcore mudders who play just for equipment and tactics for "the good of the game"? MUDding is about fun, always has been and always will. For many people that means bringing huge groups for kicks.
This game I assumed was for the people who play it mostly...if thats what the people want to do then let em.
The arguments about equipment being too heavily distribued are complete and utter crap. With the supposed fact of the MUD never wiping, in time the MUD will be completely flooded with equipment anyway. So it happens a little sooner....wah, cry me a river. People will play for a challenge if they want it, its not right to force them into it.
3nj0y because I am l33t and you are not
When all the new area spells and crap were added it lowered the need for as many people as before...now you expect people to all be hardcore mudders who play just for equipment and tactics for "the good of the game"? MUDding is about fun, always has been and always will. For many people that means bringing huge groups for kicks.
This game I assumed was for the people who play it mostly...if thats what the people want to do then let em.
The arguments about equipment being too heavily distribued are complete and utter crap. With the supposed fact of the MUD never wiping, in time the MUD will be completely flooded with equipment anyway. So it happens a little sooner....wah, cry me a river. People will play for a challenge if they want it, its not right to force them into it.
3nj0y because I am l33t and you are not
Groups that utterly spank zones are WHY the goddamned mud needs to be wiped in the first place.
Gormal: The point here is that the game is NOT all about equipment. There's no need to run through a zone with more people than necessary just to get the eq out of it, see?
Is there ever a real NEED for more than 15 people? Makes it super easy? Yep. This mud ain't designed to be easy though. Necessary to do the zone? Nope.
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-<(#)>- Xebes makes your heart start to race REAL FAST!
Gormal: The point here is that the game is NOT all about equipment. There's no need to run through a zone with more people than necessary just to get the eq out of it, see?
Is there ever a real NEED for more than 15 people? Makes it super easy? Yep. This mud ain't designed to be easy though. Necessary to do the zone? Nope.
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-<(#)>- Xebes makes your heart start to race REAL FAST!
Reason no.1 why we zone with all that are on.
We're not elitist pricks and bring all that are online.
Forcing people to 15 person max in a zone will make more elitist cliques and less friendliness.
If we can only have 15, I think most of us will shift out the level 40 warrior we let join at start of zone to bring in the old friend and decked level 50 warrior that I always group with.
I fear much more politics and much more whining from fringe players.
But what do I care.. I'm one of only two 40+ enchanters around, and I could consider myself to be a part of the core evils. This won't affect me too much.
/Jegzed
We're not elitist pricks and bring all that are online.
Forcing people to 15 person max in a zone will make more elitist cliques and less friendliness.
If we can only have 15, I think most of us will shift out the level 40 warrior we let join at start of zone to bring in the old friend and decked level 50 warrior that I always group with.
I fear much more politics and much more whining from fringe players.
But what do I care.. I'm one of only two 40+ enchanters around, and I could consider myself to be a part of the core evils. This won't affect me too much.
/Jegzed
On Sunday 07-22-2001 01:59 PM
the Rogue,Ranger,Necromancer,Paladin,Bard, Battlechanter,and Conjurer classes were pronounced Dead by Miax. May the rest in peace.
If a goodie whines about something in the woods and noone is there to hear it, does it make a sound?
[This message has been edited by Zrax (edited 07-22-2001).]
the Rogue,Ranger,Necromancer,Paladin,Bard, Battlechanter,and Conjurer classes were pronounced Dead by Miax. May the rest in peace.
If a goodie whines about something in the woods and noone is there to hear it, does it make a sound?
[This message has been edited by Zrax (edited 07-22-2001).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bipple:
<B>Of that 28 person group thrown together by the evils, how many of them were those classes you just mentioned?
I see no reason the second group of 15 people can't go do a different zone, if there not as strong they can do an easier zone.
[This message has been edited by Bipple (edited 07-22-2001).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
After many hundreds of post, you still dont know what make up 70% of evils group? You might want to go back and read some of the old post. As far as the other class goes, I'm pretty sure if Evil have class similar to rangers/paladork/anti-dork. We would play them. How many L40+ rogues/bard/Battleenchanters/COnjurers are in game? enough said. Unlike most goodie who are specialize in whining at 3 west. Maybe you guys should go exp and start zoning. and try to join that elitist goodie group of 15 of your. As for evis goes, most are well equip. Most are well rounded.
Thank you, drive thrus.
Blung take no prisoner.
[This message has been edited by Blung (edited 07-22-2001).]
<B>Of that 28 person group thrown together by the evils, how many of them were those classes you just mentioned?
I see no reason the second group of 15 people can't go do a different zone, if there not as strong they can do an easier zone.
[This message has been edited by Bipple (edited 07-22-2001).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
After many hundreds of post, you still dont know what make up 70% of evils group? You might want to go back and read some of the old post. As far as the other class goes, I'm pretty sure if Evil have class similar to rangers/paladork/anti-dork. We would play them. How many L40+ rogues/bard/Battleenchanters/COnjurers are in game? enough said. Unlike most goodie who are specialize in whining at 3 west. Maybe you guys should go exp and start zoning. and try to join that elitist goodie group of 15 of your. As for evis goes, most are well equip. Most are well rounded.
Thank you, drive thrus.
Blung take no prisoner.
[This message has been edited by Blung (edited 07-22-2001).]
I for one was 1 of the 20+ players to run through cc, jot, 9hells etc. and if laz/turg/blung an them had to choose 15 players to come along I doubt my battlechanter or conjurer would b even considered. I belive i play my characters well enough to be consider !n00b most of the time but the bottom line is, why bring a conjurer to zone at this time when that takes up a slot for a glober, or a nuker like jaz. What happens when a cleric logs on who would be more usefull for the group, i'll be thef first one to point out that yss or gromshar should be in the group and kindly take a shift back to etthreal and wait in silence. Is this right tho? I've spent days of playing time being yelled at by my significant other to get my characters large enough to be usefull for zoning purposes and now you dont even need to be a bard clas to get 15 in the group. Sure both my characters are support characters and the arguement could be you shoulda made a voker cleric warrior enchanter. But I didnt, nore did I want to. So where do we the obscure but 'support' class players end up now Miax?
Sojourn For Eternity.
Thran
Sojourn For Eternity.
Thran
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Gindipple
- Sojourner
- Posts: 676
- Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: O' Fallon, MO. USA
- Contact:
A possible exception to the rule. CRs. I recently helped on a trip into UM2 for a CR and I'm not sure if we exceeded 15 or not, but we definately were in 2 groups, I suspect due to someones charisma. Some of these people were naked (there was no touching). I do think it should be ok to exceed 15 in this circumstance.
The 28 man group slaughtering a zone I do not agree with.
Leaders are going to have a new challenge on them when the size of the group exceeds 15. They are going to have to remember who didn't get to go this time and include them next time maybe in place of someone they more preferred.
Also people have different schedules. Sometimes what starts out as a 17 mean group dwindles to a 13 man group halfway into a zone. Not sure what I'm saying there but it might somehow apply :>
Maybe just the charisma thing needs to be reconsidered and make it 15 max for all.
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Gindipple (Gnome) stands here.
The 28 man group slaughtering a zone I do not agree with.
Leaders are going to have a new challenge on them when the size of the group exceeds 15. They are going to have to remember who didn't get to go this time and include them next time maybe in place of someone they more preferred.
Also people have different schedules. Sometimes what starts out as a 17 mean group dwindles to a 13 man group halfway into a zone. Not sure what I'm saying there but it might somehow apply :>
Maybe just the charisma thing needs to be reconsidered and make it 15 max for all.
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Gindipple (Gnome) stands here.
I'm sorry to post again, but i must respond to the above. first of all, 15 for any charisma just again removes one of the purposes for having a bard.
2) the leaders making decisions based on fairness of so an so didnt get to go last time so we leave out either
i) a friend we've grouped with for ages
ii) someone who's more usefull in the zoning concept then the person we left out last time?
Seems to be a little bit of a dream to me, people make friends yes, but there are people who love to group with other people over other people its part of life. Evils have always been a completely inclusive group, never turning down help and realizeing that everyones here for fun and that 'zonin' is the highest form of fun on the mud. It seems now that the 'fun' factor is less of a point then the 'eq' or 'power stomp' factor.
Sojourn for Eternity
Thran
2) the leaders making decisions based on fairness of so an so didnt get to go last time so we leave out either
i) a friend we've grouped with for ages
ii) someone who's more usefull in the zoning concept then the person we left out last time?
Seems to be a little bit of a dream to me, people make friends yes, but there are people who love to group with other people over other people its part of life. Evils have always been a completely inclusive group, never turning down help and realizeing that everyones here for fun and that 'zonin' is the highest form of fun on the mud. It seems now that the 'fun' factor is less of a point then the 'eq' or 'power stomp' factor.
Sojourn for Eternity
Thran
Leave it to Blung to start the flames.
Anyhow.. I haven't seen a problem with the folks I hang with grouping support classes, but I DO see an issue there.
I agree with Miax on the balance issue. But I also feel that with the addition of PC tanks(instead of elementals), it increases the number of bashers/tanks you need in a group.
Perhaps the group size should be upped to 17 or 18. This way we can accomodate all the tanks required with the new code, and have plenty of room left, so folks don't feel left out.
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Malacar - French kissin midgets, and damn proud of it. Oh yeah... My comments can offend you now, I don't care anymore. Have a day.
Anyhow.. I haven't seen a problem with the folks I hang with grouping support classes, but I DO see an issue there.
I agree with Miax on the balance issue. But I also feel that with the addition of PC tanks(instead of elementals), it increases the number of bashers/tanks you need in a group.
Perhaps the group size should be upped to 17 or 18. This way we can accomodate all the tanks required with the new code, and have plenty of room left, so folks don't feel left out.
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Malacar - French kissin midgets, and damn proud of it. Oh yeah... My comments can offend you now, I don't care anymore. Have a day.
I do a who 46 good and this is what comes up:
[50 A-P] Kalthanan N'Drithrander, Knight of Darkness (Human) (RP)
[50 Rog] Nokie Quickfingers, Finder of Not-So Lost Items (Halfling)
[50 Ran] Belleshel (Grey Elf)
[50 Pal] Hyldryn (Human)
[48 War] Dhurn (Dwarf)
[48 Nec] Revenki Rathaine (Human)
I doubt any of these people (so called support classes) have trouble getting groups, hell they probably lead half of them. Conj's and Bards are both being upgraded and I'm sure they will have their place in groups when that's done.
If the evils refuse to bring support classes that's their decision, I don't see any of the goodies whining about this. It's good for the mud.
[50 A-P] Kalthanan N'Drithrander, Knight of Darkness (Human) (RP)
[50 Rog] Nokie Quickfingers, Finder of Not-So Lost Items (Halfling)
[50 Ran] Belleshel (Grey Elf)
[50 Pal] Hyldryn (Human)
[48 War] Dhurn (Dwarf)
[48 Nec] Revenki Rathaine (Human)
I doubt any of these people (so called support classes) have trouble getting groups, hell they probably lead half of them. Conj's and Bards are both being upgraded and I'm sure they will have their place in groups when that's done.
If the evils refuse to bring support classes that's their decision, I don't see any of the goodies whining about this. It's good for the mud.
you people have blown this all out of proportion
we had that many people in CC because, well, everyone wanted to help with a certain quest, eq was secondary...yes we did the eq mobs, we were there, why pass?
were we supposed to tell people, i know you want to help...but um, go away, we get in trouble if you do
the zones after that, we maybe had 18
I know the group i was in only had 5-6, and Lazz's group wasn't full
so after quest...were we then also supposed to tell 3 people to leave?
next: most players can't lead and have a group of 15, i read somewhere where we couldn't have 2 groups? but to get 15 people, we have to have 2 groups
*shrug*
Maybe evils have had very large groups, but the CC trip was the first time i'd been in a zone with more than 15-18 people this wipe, and really the whole reason for that was, to help someone with a quest, at least that's why i was there
It doesn't happen often, but the few times we've had more than 15, in zones that I've been in anyway is because we didn't want to tell people no, all it does is hurt people's feelings and cause ill will between people who should be working together
I admit, 28 was overkill, but generally we start a zone with 9-10, then more people show up, and we add them, and sometimes it goes over 15...
I'm just glad I never lead, it'd suck having to tell people no, we get deleted if we have more than a certain #
Lastly, 28 was overkill, wtf does it matter to you goodies? I can understand Imms posting saying that's too many, but why do goodies care? Even if we'd just have 12-15 people, we still would have done CC and still have gotten the eq in that boot...so what does it matter? I didn't see a goodie group sitting there wanting to do cc.
So ok, that wasn't last...people say doing that took all the fun out of the zone? hmm, sure it took some strategy out but i still had fun, being with lots of friends, common goal in mind, working together, i dunno, but I think it's fun just being with a lot of friends
this post probably disorganized as hell, typed it off and on over the past 2 hrs while doing xp, but oh well
I just a troll, i never make sense anyway
gurzog
we had that many people in CC because, well, everyone wanted to help with a certain quest, eq was secondary...yes we did the eq mobs, we were there, why pass?
were we supposed to tell people, i know you want to help...but um, go away, we get in trouble if you do
the zones after that, we maybe had 18
I know the group i was in only had 5-6, and Lazz's group wasn't full
so after quest...were we then also supposed to tell 3 people to leave?
next: most players can't lead and have a group of 15, i read somewhere where we couldn't have 2 groups? but to get 15 people, we have to have 2 groups
*shrug*
Maybe evils have had very large groups, but the CC trip was the first time i'd been in a zone with more than 15-18 people this wipe, and really the whole reason for that was, to help someone with a quest, at least that's why i was there
It doesn't happen often, but the few times we've had more than 15, in zones that I've been in anyway is because we didn't want to tell people no, all it does is hurt people's feelings and cause ill will between people who should be working together
I admit, 28 was overkill, but generally we start a zone with 9-10, then more people show up, and we add them, and sometimes it goes over 15...
I'm just glad I never lead, it'd suck having to tell people no, we get deleted if we have more than a certain #
Lastly, 28 was overkill, wtf does it matter to you goodies? I can understand Imms posting saying that's too many, but why do goodies care? Even if we'd just have 12-15 people, we still would have done CC and still have gotten the eq in that boot...so what does it matter? I didn't see a goodie group sitting there wanting to do cc.
So ok, that wasn't last...people say doing that took all the fun out of the zone? hmm, sure it took some strategy out but i still had fun, being with lots of friends, common goal in mind, working together, i dunno, but I think it's fun just being with a lot of friends
this post probably disorganized as hell, typed it off and on over the past 2 hrs while doing xp, but oh well
I just a troll, i never make sense anyway
gurzog
It matters to us goodies because you fail to realize the implications of rolling over a zone.
Please read Miax's post above carefully.
When a zone becomes too easy, whether through too many people, or through zone creation issues, it gets upgraded. Making life more difficult.
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Malacar - French kissin midgets, and damn proud of it. Oh yeah... My comments can offend you now, I don't care anymore. Have a day.
Please read Miax's post above carefully.
When a zone becomes too easy, whether through too many people, or through zone creation issues, it gets upgraded. Making life more difficult.
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Malacar - French kissin midgets, and damn proud of it. Oh yeah... My comments can offend you now, I don't care anymore. Have a day.
I fully agree with Miax's post. However there are a few things I would like to suggest.
1. Vary the zones a little so that not all the zones require the same type of group formation such as warriors, clerics, invokers, enchanters, etc.
2. More combination effects that creates benefits by having certain combos of classes, thus creating more uses for less essential support classes.
3. Goodies need to stop making assumptions about evils and evils need to stop commenting on goodies. =)
Wargo/Gwubi/Yssilk
Been there, done that, on both sides of the war and he's still not commenting on certain things why are others doing it?
1. Vary the zones a little so that not all the zones require the same type of group formation such as warriors, clerics, invokers, enchanters, etc.
2. More combination effects that creates benefits by having certain combos of classes, thus creating more uses for less essential support classes.
3. Goodies need to stop making assumptions about evils and evils need to stop commenting on goodies. =)
Wargo/Gwubi/Yssilk
Been there, done that, on both sides of the war and he's still not commenting on certain things why are others doing it?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Wargo:
Goodies need to stop making assumptions about evils and evils need to stop commenting on goodies. =)</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well put. Not gonna waste my time making comments about it, goodies are gonna whine about evils, evils are gonna whine about goodies. Its how its always been, its how it will always be. There are some of us that have grown beyond it, some never will.
Have a nice F'in day.
[This message has been edited by Niple (edited 07-22-2001).]
Goodies need to stop making assumptions about evils and evils need to stop commenting on goodies. =)</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well put. Not gonna waste my time making comments about it, goodies are gonna whine about evils, evils are gonna whine about goodies. Its how its always been, its how it will always be. There are some of us that have grown beyond it, some never will.
Have a nice F'in day.
[This message has been edited by Niple (edited 07-22-2001).]
i would like to see some of the leaders posting a 15 man group and the makeup of classes they'd want. also indicate their roles in the group. no flames from this point forward please. hate the class, not the person at the terminal...
so those of you who lead the zones or have leadership xp (ON THE MUD ONLY) since at least the toril era please post a list of the number and type of classed to make up your 15 man group, and what their roles would be.
after this the perhaps we can start a constructive thread about how to balance what is needed to zone with, not just how many people.
so those of you who lead the zones or have leadership xp (ON THE MUD ONLY) since at least the toril era please post a list of the number and type of classed to make up your 15 man group, and what their roles would be.
after this the perhaps we can start a constructive thread about how to balance what is needed to zone with, not just how many people.
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Hamibugan Sinweaver
- Sojourner
- Posts: 99
- Joined: Mon May 14, 2001 5:01 am
- Location: Japan
I must say the only time I see evils commenting on goodies is in retort to a goodies complaints.
I agree and disagree however on a few points. I have yet to be in a "major" zone here but have been and lead on other MUDS. If you want to take 28-32 people to a zone, fine. I agree it's great to hang with friends, I'm all about it.
But take a few things into your consideration.
If you're worried about offending people and you have 2/3 of the who list what about all the midbie people who can't get an exp group to save their lives because EVERY person over level 35 says nope I'm in CC.
I'd like to exp my paladin and my cleric at the same time but I can't. It's a rule, you just can't. Just like this is a rule, or a rule in the works, complaining won't prove much. Positive input will.
I am ALL about hanging with friends. But there is I believe a point where it becomes cheezy and overkill. Just like in exp there can come a point where it's unanimously agreed that splitting the group would be best for everyone.
I agree that something needs to be done to be able to include the supporting classes and otherwise "not considered" people (whether because of level class or whatever) to keep the game FUN. That is after all what it's about right? FUN.
I think the Charisma thing is kind of creating a hypocricy here in a way. You can take 15 and only 15 in ONE group. Well if noone has the Charisma to hold 15 and the zones are well rounded for 15, "that" particular group won't be doing a zone because it's two or three people short.
Maybe up the group limits a few or is there perhaps a way to put a max group cap for each zone. Maybe even put something in the way of "requesting" a support group through some sort of RP aspect with a god or something.
And I think that turning someone away because of a "rule" should not make a leader guilty in anyway. It's a rule, it's not your fault.
*end mindless rambling*
------------------
That is all. Peace.
Hami
I agree and disagree however on a few points. I have yet to be in a "major" zone here but have been and lead on other MUDS. If you want to take 28-32 people to a zone, fine. I agree it's great to hang with friends, I'm all about it.
But take a few things into your consideration.
If you're worried about offending people and you have 2/3 of the who list what about all the midbie people who can't get an exp group to save their lives because EVERY person over level 35 says nope I'm in CC.
I'd like to exp my paladin and my cleric at the same time but I can't. It's a rule, you just can't. Just like this is a rule, or a rule in the works, complaining won't prove much. Positive input will.
I am ALL about hanging with friends. But there is I believe a point where it becomes cheezy and overkill. Just like in exp there can come a point where it's unanimously agreed that splitting the group would be best for everyone.
I agree that something needs to be done to be able to include the supporting classes and otherwise "not considered" people (whether because of level class or whatever) to keep the game FUN. That is after all what it's about right? FUN.
I think the Charisma thing is kind of creating a hypocricy here in a way. You can take 15 and only 15 in ONE group. Well if noone has the Charisma to hold 15 and the zones are well rounded for 15, "that" particular group won't be doing a zone because it's two or three people short.
Maybe up the group limits a few or is there perhaps a way to put a max group cap for each zone. Maybe even put something in the way of "requesting" a support group through some sort of RP aspect with a god or something.
And I think that turning someone away because of a "rule" should not make a leader guilty in anyway. It's a rule, it's not your fault.
*end mindless rambling*
------------------
That is all. Peace.
Hami
Devil's Advocate:
When you start a smaller zone group but you want to do a bigger zone. Well, you have to make do with what is online.. but then better players suited to do the larger zone logon.. what are you supposed to do?
Bill, Eddie and Susie wanna do a zone.
Well, not enough people are on or they aren't the right classes to do jot..
So let us grab some folks and do sg, well during sg you add more people in the hopes of doing jot. When you're done you've got 15 people, but not the right players/classes .. what do you tell those in your group that really are just taking up a slot you need?
Seeya?
If it takes 30 people right now to do tf, they still only getting the same amount of items in the zone as if only 10 did it..
Jurdex
Dornax
When you start a smaller zone group but you want to do a bigger zone. Well, you have to make do with what is online.. but then better players suited to do the larger zone logon.. what are you supposed to do?
Bill, Eddie and Susie wanna do a zone.
Well, not enough people are on or they aren't the right classes to do jot..
So let us grab some folks and do sg, well during sg you add more people in the hopes of doing jot. When you're done you've got 15 people, but not the right players/classes .. what do you tell those in your group that really are just taking up a slot you need?
Seeya?
If it takes 30 people right now to do tf, they still only getting the same amount of items in the zone as if only 10 did it..
Jurdex
Dornax
I think that group size is not the real problem. The real problem is the game's economy. So, how do you fix the economy? Well, here's my 2 cents.
1) There is too much equipment flooding the game. I think the solution to this is change how items load. Right now(and this has been the case for years) the mud goes down(reboot or crash) a few times a day. When it comes up people scurry all over the place gathering equipment. I think equipment loading should not be dependant on reboots, but real time instead. For example, common items reload every 12 hours or so, uncommon 24, rare 36, etc. Of course add some randomness to spice it up. It also adds a way for the admins to model the economy of the game. Admins can sit at a spreadsheet and approximate out how much equipment will be distributed over time. If it looks like too much eq will get out, they can tweak the numbers. This solution also solves the camping problem.
2)Planned pwipes. Probably not a popular answer, but I think a pwipe every n months is healthy. I also think it should be done "right". Connecting to a mud and seeing "we did a pwipe" or "the mud is closed" in the MOTD could cause some of us older mudders to have a heart attack. Here's how I think it can be done right. Have a roleplay theme associate with each era(heck, right now we have the toril and sojourn eras...who played what char/class...how the world was shaped...etc). Have the race be on for good versus evil. Then a few days before the planned wipe, have a good vs. evil pkill battle royal throughout the world to see who is the last one standing. Also save major changes for when a new era starts(similar to software expansion packs). Celebrate the pwipe, don't scare us with it.
Just trying to make the best computer game bester.
Kobdahn Yetikin _\|/_ Twilight Guardian _\|/_
1) There is too much equipment flooding the game. I think the solution to this is change how items load. Right now(and this has been the case for years) the mud goes down(reboot or crash) a few times a day. When it comes up people scurry all over the place gathering equipment. I think equipment loading should not be dependant on reboots, but real time instead. For example, common items reload every 12 hours or so, uncommon 24, rare 36, etc. Of course add some randomness to spice it up. It also adds a way for the admins to model the economy of the game. Admins can sit at a spreadsheet and approximate out how much equipment will be distributed over time. If it looks like too much eq will get out, they can tweak the numbers. This solution also solves the camping problem.
2)Planned pwipes. Probably not a popular answer, but I think a pwipe every n months is healthy. I also think it should be done "right". Connecting to a mud and seeing "we did a pwipe" or "the mud is closed" in the MOTD could cause some of us older mudders to have a heart attack. Here's how I think it can be done right. Have a roleplay theme associate with each era(heck, right now we have the toril and sojourn eras...who played what char/class...how the world was shaped...etc). Have the race be on for good versus evil. Then a few days before the planned wipe, have a good vs. evil pkill battle royal throughout the world to see who is the last one standing. Also save major changes for when a new era starts(similar to software expansion packs). Celebrate the pwipe, don't scare us with it.
Just trying to make the best computer game bester.
Kobdahn Yetikin _\|/_ Twilight Guardian _\|/_
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Hamibugan Sinweaver
- Sojourner
- Posts: 99
- Joined: Mon May 14, 2001 5:01 am
- Location: Japan
I like idea 2, however, with exp tables the way they are that creates a never ending cycle of brutal hours of exp.
Without alot of parameters and randomness I think idea 1 will only create people knowing "exactly" when they need to log on to get something or do a zone, especially level 50's. I mean after 50 what is there besides quest and zone? I think boots and crashes keep randomness.
Oops, you did say put randomness in there to spice it up. But then you have to have admins comitted to constantly monitoring it. And then a good percentage of it because dependent on Admins and the frequency with which they monitor it. I'm sure they have their hands full already, shrug.
[This message has been edited by Hamibugan Sinweaver (edited 07-22-2001).]
Without alot of parameters and randomness I think idea 1 will only create people knowing "exactly" when they need to log on to get something or do a zone, especially level 50's. I mean after 50 what is there besides quest and zone? I think boots and crashes keep randomness.
Oops, you did say put randomness in there to spice it up. But then you have to have admins comitted to constantly monitoring it. And then a good percentage of it because dependent on Admins and the frequency with which they monitor it. I'm sure they have their hands full already, shrug.
[This message has been edited by Hamibugan Sinweaver (edited 07-22-2001).]
The gods already stated there will never be another pwipe.
If they pwiped, after they promised what they have, a large chunk of the playerbase would quit.
They are making it hard so it takes longer to level and get the really spanky stuff. That's what this all comes down to.
Something to look forward to.
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Malacar - French kissin midgets, and damn proud of it. Oh yeah... My comments can offend you now, I don't care anymore. Have a day.
If they pwiped, after they promised what they have, a large chunk of the playerbase would quit.
They are making it hard so it takes longer to level and get the really spanky stuff. That's what this all comes down to.
Something to look forward to.
------------------
Malacar - French kissin midgets, and damn proud of it. Oh yeah... My comments can offend you now, I don't care anymore. Have a day.
First off, let me say I respect the way you worded that post Miax. It's a significant problem when a mud becomes unbalanced, we all know this. How many of you wouldn't bitch like crazy if zones became impossible to do w/ less than 25 players? You'd all be upset, but go the other direction, and no one says a word.
The fact that anyone would try to argue that a group mashing a zone is ok right now is sad. The fact of the matter is, there is a huge jump from when everyone is level 20, and what can be done, to those who are level 35+ right after a pwipe. You attempt to do things at level 20, in huge groups often to make sure things don't go wrong. After you hit 35+, I'd imagine that you'd bring less and less people to 1) keep the flow of the zone going smooth, and 2) keep the challenge there.
I've never really led one of the major zones here, but I've spent countless hours leading zones at other fairly popular MUDs. I've also admin'd/built for several places, and watched a couple of them crumble because of a sheer lack of balance.
There's always a fine line to walk, and I think the staff has done a great job at making the place fun w/o overdoing the sheer difficulty. The classes are rich w/ intresting skills and spells, and for the most part the people seem to be fairly pleased w/ the progress being made.
I think a lot of people are in too much of a hurry to get to a point where they can crush the larger zones day in and day out. I can't remember how long it took to do Tiamat during S2, but I know it wasn't 3 months after opening.
I think patience is a serious key to the survival of this place. Without patience, everyone gets upset, and makes rash decisions. Take a look at the number of people that get upset at something that doesn't work correctly right now. Several people have complained, and said they wouldn't play again until things changed. I think that's a pretty weak thing to do. As if everyone is expecting to be all-powerful within 3 months.
It's a game, it's going to be around for awhile(or so they say
so take it easy and try to enjoy it as much as possible.
Twyl
The fact that anyone would try to argue that a group mashing a zone is ok right now is sad. The fact of the matter is, there is a huge jump from when everyone is level 20, and what can be done, to those who are level 35+ right after a pwipe. You attempt to do things at level 20, in huge groups often to make sure things don't go wrong. After you hit 35+, I'd imagine that you'd bring less and less people to 1) keep the flow of the zone going smooth, and 2) keep the challenge there.
I've never really led one of the major zones here, but I've spent countless hours leading zones at other fairly popular MUDs. I've also admin'd/built for several places, and watched a couple of them crumble because of a sheer lack of balance.
There's always a fine line to walk, and I think the staff has done a great job at making the place fun w/o overdoing the sheer difficulty. The classes are rich w/ intresting skills and spells, and for the most part the people seem to be fairly pleased w/ the progress being made.
I think a lot of people are in too much of a hurry to get to a point where they can crush the larger zones day in and day out. I can't remember how long it took to do Tiamat during S2, but I know it wasn't 3 months after opening.
I think patience is a serious key to the survival of this place. Without patience, everyone gets upset, and makes rash decisions. Take a look at the number of people that get upset at something that doesn't work correctly right now. Several people have complained, and said they wouldn't play again until things changed. I think that's a pretty weak thing to do. As if everyone is expecting to be all-powerful within 3 months.
It's a game, it's going to be around for awhile(or so they say
so take it easy and try to enjoy it as much as possible.Twyl
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Guest
A couple of notes on the feedback so far:
The argument that limiting groups to 15 will pronounce the death-call of certain classes is gibberish, an unfounded and emotion response. In reality, if some classes are being left out of groups, then its our responsibility as the staff to determine why the class is disadvantaged, and to fix it so that it Will find places in groups. The solution to the problem of 30 person armies crushing zones is not to "let them do it because otherwise, some classes will get left behind". That suggests we allow the mud balance to be destroyed in short order, so that a few more poeple can make it into groups.
To that, I must say that the long-term success of the game, which Directly impacts how much fun You guys will have over the long-term, is more important than allowing "everybody" to come along in groups.
If we let this go, I predict that in 3 months the game will be flooded with EQ, the zones largely conquered and mastered, very few people will actually Know the zones as most will just school behind 4 or 5 leaders, zone balance will goto hell in order to compensate against armies, and the game will have lost its zeal.
If we stop this now, I predict that in 9-12 months the game will have lots of with EQ but not be flooded, the zones largely conquered but never mastered as they cannot be crushed, there will be 4-10 solid leaders with many budding new ones that have been leading, and a very precise zone balance as the area makers will continue to balance the mud over time against a 15 person group. The mud will retain most of its zeal because the zones are always hard, driving up the value of equipment and the challenge to over-come.
Thats how serious this could be. I'll await more time for feedback, but thus far I have heard only support of the policy, or emotional reasons why we shouldn't do it.
Miax
The argument that limiting groups to 15 will pronounce the death-call of certain classes is gibberish, an unfounded and emotion response. In reality, if some classes are being left out of groups, then its our responsibility as the staff to determine why the class is disadvantaged, and to fix it so that it Will find places in groups. The solution to the problem of 30 person armies crushing zones is not to "let them do it because otherwise, some classes will get left behind". That suggests we allow the mud balance to be destroyed in short order, so that a few more poeple can make it into groups.
To that, I must say that the long-term success of the game, which Directly impacts how much fun You guys will have over the long-term, is more important than allowing "everybody" to come along in groups.
If we let this go, I predict that in 3 months the game will be flooded with EQ, the zones largely conquered and mastered, very few people will actually Know the zones as most will just school behind 4 or 5 leaders, zone balance will goto hell in order to compensate against armies, and the game will have lost its zeal.
If we stop this now, I predict that in 9-12 months the game will have lots of with EQ but not be flooded, the zones largely conquered but never mastered as they cannot be crushed, there will be 4-10 solid leaders with many budding new ones that have been leading, and a very precise zone balance as the area makers will continue to balance the mud over time against a 15 person group. The mud will retain most of its zeal because the zones are always hard, driving up the value of equipment and the challenge to over-come.
Thats how serious this could be. I'll await more time for feedback, but thus far I have heard only support of the policy, or emotional reasons why we shouldn't do it.
Miax
I'd like to thank Miax for taking the time to post and read through the feedback. And personally I have to agree with him.
For me, its actually more fun to have a group that isn't overkill for a zone, as it adds some challange and makes you pay attention.
As for classes being killed because of a 15 person group.. I don't think so.
From my perspective as a goodie.. a damned powerful group would be made of
2 clerics/2 ghealers/3 warriors/1 or 2 Palidans/2 stoners. Then fill in remaining slots with hitters or damage. Notice you can also tweak the group mix and have say a necro for globes etc. Whenever I've done zones, we always seem to have a nice broad range of classes, as all of their abilities work well, especially the classes that are multifunction, as they can help reduce load to the primary classes (like enchanters and clerics etc).
Anyway, I think the zones should be balanced so you don't need a hoarde of people to get through. The gods are definately willing to accept feedback to tweak zones, as seen with Avernus (even though it may still be a death trap for a 15 person group).
For me, its actually more fun to have a group that isn't overkill for a zone, as it adds some challange and makes you pay attention.
As for classes being killed because of a 15 person group.. I don't think so.
From my perspective as a goodie.. a damned powerful group would be made of
2 clerics/2 ghealers/3 warriors/1 or 2 Palidans/2 stoners. Then fill in remaining slots with hitters or damage. Notice you can also tweak the group mix and have say a necro for globes etc. Whenever I've done zones, we always seem to have a nice broad range of classes, as all of their abilities work well, especially the classes that are multifunction, as they can help reduce load to the primary classes (like enchanters and clerics etc).
Anyway, I think the zones should be balanced so you don't need a hoarde of people to get through. The gods are definately willing to accept feedback to tweak zones, as seen with Avernus (even though it may still be a death trap for a 15 person group).
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Hamibugan Sinweaver
- Sojourner
- Posts: 99
- Joined: Mon May 14, 2001 5:01 am
- Location: Japan
Miax:
As long as the staff continues to balance zones around that number shouldn't we be fine?
The Charisma bit still seems a factor (I may be wrong, shrug). And I think pushing the limit up by 2 or 3 may help ease some of the squeeze in a few extras for fun thing.
Putting maybe what the staffs suggestion is may spawn some brainstorming as well? I mean it seems that a fair amount of players are saying 15 isn't enough and staff and others are saying 30 is too much (agree, heh). So balance zones for a greater than 15 but not so great as 30 number? Just as they are balanced for 15?
Shrug, just puttin somethin out there.
------------------
That is all. Peace.
Hami
As long as the staff continues to balance zones around that number shouldn't we be fine?
The Charisma bit still seems a factor (I may be wrong, shrug). And I think pushing the limit up by 2 or 3 may help ease some of the squeeze in a few extras for fun thing.
Putting maybe what the staffs suggestion is may spawn some brainstorming as well? I mean it seems that a fair amount of players are saying 15 isn't enough and staff and others are saying 30 is too much (agree, heh). So balance zones for a greater than 15 but not so great as 30 number? Just as they are balanced for 15?
Shrug, just puttin somethin out there.
------------------
That is all. Peace.
Hami
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Salenthelor
- Sojourner
- Posts: 44
- Joined: Tue May 01, 2001 5:01 am
I do understand why you feel some kind of change is necessary, and I will always applaud the Sojourn team's willingness to make the tough decisions to preserve the game. However, I believe enforced group limits will promote the sort of factionalism that reigned on Toril and the kind of elitism that embitters new players.
Regular teams of limited size will form from the fractured larger ones, and they will compete against each other. One day they will evolve into small guilds, forced to be exclusive by group size-limits.
It smacks of Toril's social structure to me, only this time enforced by code. On Soj2, we actively campaigned against exclusive groups and guilds in favor of the inclusiveness we felt was missing from Toril. Perhaps this change is really unavoidable, but I do want to make sure this effect of the rule is mentioned.
Mplor
Regular teams of limited size will form from the fractured larger ones, and they will compete against each other. One day they will evolve into small guilds, forced to be exclusive by group size-limits.
It smacks of Toril's social structure to me, only this time enforced by code. On Soj2, we actively campaigned against exclusive groups and guilds in favor of the inclusiveness we felt was missing from Toril. Perhaps this change is really unavoidable, but I do want to make sure this effect of the rule is mentioned.
Mplor
Something I always thought was better than limiting the max group size to n:
Total number of levels in group <= 600
This way, you can either bring 12 50's or 14-15 lvl 45s. Early in a wipe, people have mediocre eq and are not all 45+ yet. Thus, they can bring more ppl. Later on when they are higher level (and accordingly have better eq) they have to bring less.
And a 1 group limit rule to prevent bringing a 2nd one.
There are two reasons we bring ppl over the max, namely
1) We start with less ppl in a small zone and end up with more because ppl we NEED for other zones join, and we don't want to tell those lvl 30's who were with us already to leave.
2) We are not that well eq'ed yet, and bring more ppl to compensate. Example: CC and 9 hells. If we stuck to max group size here, we'd *never* have made it. In all honesty, we we could have waited 2 months till we had better eq and more levels and done it with 14 ppl, but it's our nature to want things 'now'.
That said, I hope there will NEVER be a pwipe again. There is nothing so disheartening as losing a year's work. Some people said they don't mind if there are pwipes every N months, but some of us spend a year finally getting 50, getting some nice eq. This isn't duris where you are 50 in two weeks and decked with the best eq in 4. Personally, I strive to have the best eq in the game, to do the hardest zones and quests. I hate 4 months of mindless leveling. I hate losing a year worth of eq. I almost didn't play again this time around, but the mention that the admnis would NOT EVER wipe again made me happy and brought me to put up the effort into my char again.
Enforce anything you have to, but don't wipe. Make 10 ppl group limits, up zone mobs, whatever.
Total number of levels in group <= 600
This way, you can either bring 12 50's or 14-15 lvl 45s. Early in a wipe, people have mediocre eq and are not all 45+ yet. Thus, they can bring more ppl. Later on when they are higher level (and accordingly have better eq) they have to bring less.
And a 1 group limit rule to prevent bringing a 2nd one.
There are two reasons we bring ppl over the max, namely
1) We start with less ppl in a small zone and end up with more because ppl we NEED for other zones join, and we don't want to tell those lvl 30's who were with us already to leave.
2) We are not that well eq'ed yet, and bring more ppl to compensate. Example: CC and 9 hells. If we stuck to max group size here, we'd *never* have made it. In all honesty, we we could have waited 2 months till we had better eq and more levels and done it with 14 ppl, but it's our nature to want things 'now'.
That said, I hope there will NEVER be a pwipe again. There is nothing so disheartening as losing a year's work. Some people said they don't mind if there are pwipes every N months, but some of us spend a year finally getting 50, getting some nice eq. This isn't duris where you are 50 in two weeks and decked with the best eq in 4. Personally, I strive to have the best eq in the game, to do the hardest zones and quests. I hate 4 months of mindless leveling. I hate losing a year worth of eq. I almost didn't play again this time around, but the mention that the admnis would NOT EVER wipe again made me happy and brought me to put up the effort into my char again.
Enforce anything you have to, but don't wipe. Make 10 ppl group limits, up zone mobs, whatever.
Cherz, I do really like your idea of having the group size based on the max number of levels.
One thought though. Does it suggest that exp might be a bit on the easy side if people are able to get near-50 quickly (in some classes), to the point where they're wanting to do their 10th circle quest right this instant? I'd say that paladins have it very very easy in comparision to most other classes, warriors and rogues seem to be not too far behind.
Is it better to balance the MUD by keeping things difficult? Yeah, I'd say so.
[edit: deleted about 2 paragraphs of ramble, someone remind me not to post at 4:30 am]
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-<(#)>- Xebes makes your heart start to race REAL FAST!
[This message has been edited by Xebes (edited 07-23-2001).]
One thought though. Does it suggest that exp might be a bit on the easy side if people are able to get near-50 quickly (in some classes), to the point where they're wanting to do their 10th circle quest right this instant? I'd say that paladins have it very very easy in comparision to most other classes, warriors and rogues seem to be not too far behind.
Is it better to balance the MUD by keeping things difficult? Yeah, I'd say so.
[edit: deleted about 2 paragraphs of ramble, someone remind me not to post at 4:30 am]
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-<(#)>- Xebes makes your heart start to race REAL FAST!
[This message has been edited by Xebes (edited 07-23-2001).]
I guess I'll open this rant by pronouncing that I see two types of mudder (in this debate although there are many more that come to mind)
-those who like a challenge
-those who like power
However you like to play the game, whatever makes you have the most fun, is just fine I suppose in some instance. My little brother would play doom for hours on end in god mode *boggle* \, but he enjoyed it so twibbly di di.
The problem I think Miax bought to attention is that playing the mud in god mode (huge groups) may lead to the flood of quip / inbalance of the game?
I guess that raises the question of just what problems power playing like this will cause given that we are not having future pwipes? In my opinion, I don't see it as a big problem atm, It is often refered to here the "that group" of 28, that was a once off, and like they saifd it formed on the common old addage of the mud "go in over powered the first time"?
I guess on a mathematical methodology you could ask yourself do 28 people roll 2 zones consecutively faster than 2 seperate groups of 14 doing individual zones? If they do, it is a problem, if not...well no problem there.
A solution to this problem I posted during the sos2 mail list, was to have a proc written that could be attached to mobs to check various room conditions, so as to see how badly they are being smitten. For example,
Thrym comes up against a group of 25 people, on tick he would check If RoomNumberOfPlayers >= 15 then "load a big badass mob to help".
Of course the variable that is the message sent to player could vary accordingly, from a guard shouting for help to a demon summoning in some buddies. I can think of a gaggle of variables that the mobs could check for, even interesting things that would add flavour to the zones such as troll mob that calls his friends if elves come to his cave for a feed! (note I play an elf so don't get cranky, just an example)
This idea I guess btw stems from my use of DG Scripts, to do similar thing such as check a players level, if too high for the, lets say podling child, it calls to its father for assistance.
This of course may have people retort with, "but then we wouldn't be able to go on spanks!?!?!" I tend to agree the odd spank can be good fun. However as dsomeone who has built areas, it would make me a bit upset if my zones where the constant victim of frequent spanks *Sarell Comforts the Scarred Merc, and would like to see him mug a player once in while!*. So I reiterate, it would not be something for all zones, some are certainly hard enough as is, but would be good fun in my opinion for others, specifically those holding a pile of nice quip.
Have a Fabulous Day, & Safe Travels
Sarell/Ladak/etc aka Patrick
-those who like a challenge
-those who like power
However you like to play the game, whatever makes you have the most fun, is just fine I suppose in some instance. My little brother would play doom for hours on end in god mode *boggle* \, but he enjoyed it so twibbly di di.
The problem I think Miax bought to attention is that playing the mud in god mode (huge groups) may lead to the flood of quip / inbalance of the game?
I guess that raises the question of just what problems power playing like this will cause given that we are not having future pwipes? In my opinion, I don't see it as a big problem atm, It is often refered to here the "that group" of 28, that was a once off, and like they saifd it formed on the common old addage of the mud "go in over powered the first time"?
I guess on a mathematical methodology you could ask yourself do 28 people roll 2 zones consecutively faster than 2 seperate groups of 14 doing individual zones? If they do, it is a problem, if not...well no problem there.
A solution to this problem I posted during the sos2 mail list, was to have a proc written that could be attached to mobs to check various room conditions, so as to see how badly they are being smitten. For example,
Thrym comes up against a group of 25 people, on tick he would check If RoomNumberOfPlayers >= 15 then "load a big badass mob to help".
Of course the variable that is the message sent to player could vary accordingly, from a guard shouting for help to a demon summoning in some buddies. I can think of a gaggle of variables that the mobs could check for, even interesting things that would add flavour to the zones such as troll mob that calls his friends if elves come to his cave for a feed! (note I play an elf so don't get cranky, just an example)
This idea I guess btw stems from my use of DG Scripts, to do similar thing such as check a players level, if too high for the, lets say podling child, it calls to its father for assistance.
This of course may have people retort with, "but then we wouldn't be able to go on spanks!?!?!" I tend to agree the odd spank can be good fun. However as dsomeone who has built areas, it would make me a bit upset if my zones where the constant victim of frequent spanks *Sarell Comforts the Scarred Merc, and would like to see him mug a player once in while!*. So I reiterate, it would not be something for all zones, some are certainly hard enough as is, but would be good fun in my opinion for others, specifically those holding a pile of nice quip.
Have a Fabulous Day, & Safe Travels
Sarell/Ladak/etc aka Patrick
Okay, here's the scoop:
1) Miax has a valid point about large groups being unbalancing.
2) Ppl are correct that support classes will get screwed when it comes down to deciding who gets to go and who gets to stay, assuming there's no clique loyalty involved. This limit will also drive the clique tendancy apparent this boot.
3) Others are also correct that arbitrary limits are no fun.
Ack! If we're all correct, then whats the solution? Is the world just gonna end if both sides are right? Here's what I think the answer is: Make 'support' classes able to contribute something...*USEFUL*! Here's some ideas, just off the top of my head:
1. Rogues: IMHO they're pretty powerful already dmg wise. Ive seen numerous logs showing them taking down some tuff eq mobs in one shot (assassinate, etc). So, they dont need damage to be useful. The way to make them more useful is obvious. The original core of this class used to be a thief that could steal/pick locks/find & rem traps. Yah, traps have been added, but are they really widespread and useful? I dont think so. Make traps and stuff more common in zones...pretty simple.
2) Rangers. Supposidly they'll do decent damage if they had archery. For arguments sake, lets say that actually happens. So, they also contribute dmg. Well, they've got the nature thing. Does it really matter to zone groups if a ranger can eat bugs, carve a canoe, or make snakes from sticks? No. Its great for soloing and entertainment value, but not useful in zones. Nature areas aren't even that common to boot. Go back to their origins. Rangers are supposed to be excellent guides and trackers in nature. Why would something like that exist in the world? Because in RL its easy as heck to get lost in vast forests or to miss those ruins you were searching for by a long shot. So, two things can happen here: 1) Make more area's natural...its silly some of the places you can be in (a grass field was mentioned recently..but there are plenty of others) that should be nature. Hell, just make more natural areas too! 2) More importantly, add in code that causes ppl to get lost in nature. You're in a forest with NSEW exits and you type 'N' but actually go 'E'...without being told, of course. In groups, this would happen to the group leader. Make it intelligence dependant too, I suppose. It would be inconvenient and sometimes dangerous. Then, give rangers a new skill or innate: direction sense. Going through a dangerous nature area? Bring that ranger!
3) Bards. Pretty obvious here. Remove the bonuses to group size limits to everyone except bards. Then code it such that the bard doesn't need to lead. It's just their charismatic presence that lends strength to the leader. Need that extra couple of ppl in the group?...bring along a bard *gasp* You might even get some good music too! This, of course, applies to those orc bard-wannabes too.
4) Elementalists. Don't know what they can do yet so no comment here.
5) Necros. I dont know enough about these guys to even know if they need help. Necros have been very useful in the groups ive been in with em. I'm sure other ppl can think of stuff that could help them.
This was stuff off the top of my head. You can have your cake and eat it too. You just need to think about how a compromise can be made.
Izzy
[This message has been edited by izarek (edited 07-23-2001).]
1) Miax has a valid point about large groups being unbalancing.
2) Ppl are correct that support classes will get screwed when it comes down to deciding who gets to go and who gets to stay, assuming there's no clique loyalty involved. This limit will also drive the clique tendancy apparent this boot.
3) Others are also correct that arbitrary limits are no fun.
Ack! If we're all correct, then whats the solution? Is the world just gonna end if both sides are right? Here's what I think the answer is: Make 'support' classes able to contribute something...*USEFUL*! Here's some ideas, just off the top of my head:
1. Rogues: IMHO they're pretty powerful already dmg wise. Ive seen numerous logs showing them taking down some tuff eq mobs in one shot (assassinate, etc). So, they dont need damage to be useful. The way to make them more useful is obvious. The original core of this class used to be a thief that could steal/pick locks/find & rem traps. Yah, traps have been added, but are they really widespread and useful? I dont think so. Make traps and stuff more common in zones...pretty simple.
2) Rangers. Supposidly they'll do decent damage if they had archery. For arguments sake, lets say that actually happens. So, they also contribute dmg. Well, they've got the nature thing. Does it really matter to zone groups if a ranger can eat bugs, carve a canoe, or make snakes from sticks? No. Its great for soloing and entertainment value, but not useful in zones. Nature areas aren't even that common to boot. Go back to their origins. Rangers are supposed to be excellent guides and trackers in nature. Why would something like that exist in the world? Because in RL its easy as heck to get lost in vast forests or to miss those ruins you were searching for by a long shot. So, two things can happen here: 1) Make more area's natural...its silly some of the places you can be in (a grass field was mentioned recently..but there are plenty of others) that should be nature. Hell, just make more natural areas too! 2) More importantly, add in code that causes ppl to get lost in nature. You're in a forest with NSEW exits and you type 'N' but actually go 'E'...without being told, of course. In groups, this would happen to the group leader. Make it intelligence dependant too, I suppose. It would be inconvenient and sometimes dangerous. Then, give rangers a new skill or innate: direction sense. Going through a dangerous nature area? Bring that ranger!
3) Bards. Pretty obvious here. Remove the bonuses to group size limits to everyone except bards. Then code it such that the bard doesn't need to lead. It's just their charismatic presence that lends strength to the leader. Need that extra couple of ppl in the group?...bring along a bard *gasp* You might even get some good music too! This, of course, applies to those orc bard-wannabes too.
4) Elementalists. Don't know what they can do yet so no comment here.
5) Necros. I dont know enough about these guys to even know if they need help. Necros have been very useful in the groups ive been in with em. I'm sure other ppl can think of stuff that could help them.
This was stuff off the top of my head. You can have your cake and eat it too. You just need to think about how a compromise can be made.
Izzy
[This message has been edited by izarek (edited 07-23-2001).]
I love how folks are saying support classes get screwed.
I dunno about others, but in the higher level groups I have been a part of so far...
We have almost always had a ranger. We have almost always had a rogue. We rarely have a necro. There aren't any high level goodie bards(that I have seen) yet(but bards need work anyways, so I'll defer this point). We almost always have a conjurer. Druids are rare, but we've taken them when available.
Here's a majority of the groups we have.
2 warriors, an antipal, a paladin, an enchanter(or two), a cleric(or two), a ghealer(or two), an invoker, an illusionist, a rogue, a ranger(or two).
The only classes I don't see us taking often are the bard like I said, and necros + druids. And the druids isn't because of choice, it's lack of core druid.
I used to be of the mentality that core 'clique' groups are bad. But after folks trying to hammer it home to me(and none of them in the group I hang with I might add), I decided they are healthy. In the most part at least.
Core groups promote more efficient teamwork between those people. Core groups ensure you usually have someone to hang with.
Core groups also have their drawbacks. Not much outside communication. Outside opinions that they are 'elitists' or what have you.
If there were more good leaders, there wouldn't be this opinion about elitists(well ok, there will always be this opinion, but maybe less). Something I noticed, however, is a lot of folks either don't have the drive or the the time to commit to learning new zones. And those that know how to lead aren't willing to share info of zones. Once a person knows how to lead, things will be good.
Problem with that, aside from lack of knowledge, is the 'lemming syndrome' that I mentioned in another thread. A lot of leaders(no names here, I respect them simply for taking the abuse and crap that's given to leaders) have gotten so much shit given to them that they are to the point where they want people to follow what they say, and only what they say. And if you question it, they flip out. Then there are the group members that don't know when to keep their mouths shut. A happy medium is required, but is rare.
Frankly, complaining that 'support' classes are screwed is not condusive of a 'fix' for the 'problem'. It's just viewed like Miax said.. Emotional rants or opinions that are not helping.
Do as some others have done in this thread. Give suggestions.
Incase anyone didn't notice, this post is simply to point out that only 3 classes are left out of groups I have been in. And all three, so far, have been from lack of core players with those classes(at least this is how I see it). Not from lack of choice.
I agree with the 15 man limit.
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Malacar - French kissin midgets, and damn proud of it. Oh yeah... My comments can offend you now, I don't care anymore. Have a day.
I dunno about others, but in the higher level groups I have been a part of so far...
We have almost always had a ranger. We have almost always had a rogue. We rarely have a necro. There aren't any high level goodie bards(that I have seen) yet(but bards need work anyways, so I'll defer this point). We almost always have a conjurer. Druids are rare, but we've taken them when available.
Here's a majority of the groups we have.
2 warriors, an antipal, a paladin, an enchanter(or two), a cleric(or two), a ghealer(or two), an invoker, an illusionist, a rogue, a ranger(or two).
The only classes I don't see us taking often are the bard like I said, and necros + druids. And the druids isn't because of choice, it's lack of core druid.
I used to be of the mentality that core 'clique' groups are bad. But after folks trying to hammer it home to me(and none of them in the group I hang with I might add), I decided they are healthy. In the most part at least.
Core groups promote more efficient teamwork between those people. Core groups ensure you usually have someone to hang with.
Core groups also have their drawbacks. Not much outside communication. Outside opinions that they are 'elitists' or what have you.
If there were more good leaders, there wouldn't be this opinion about elitists(well ok, there will always be this opinion, but maybe less). Something I noticed, however, is a lot of folks either don't have the drive or the the time to commit to learning new zones. And those that know how to lead aren't willing to share info of zones. Once a person knows how to lead, things will be good.
Problem with that, aside from lack of knowledge, is the 'lemming syndrome' that I mentioned in another thread. A lot of leaders(no names here, I respect them simply for taking the abuse and crap that's given to leaders) have gotten so much shit given to them that they are to the point where they want people to follow what they say, and only what they say. And if you question it, they flip out. Then there are the group members that don't know when to keep their mouths shut. A happy medium is required, but is rare.
Frankly, complaining that 'support' classes are screwed is not condusive of a 'fix' for the 'problem'. It's just viewed like Miax said.. Emotional rants or opinions that are not helping.
Do as some others have done in this thread. Give suggestions.
Incase anyone didn't notice, this post is simply to point out that only 3 classes are left out of groups I have been in. And all three, so far, have been from lack of core players with those classes(at least this is how I see it). Not from lack of choice.
I agree with the 15 man limit.
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Malacar - French kissin midgets, and damn proud of it. Oh yeah... My comments can offend you now, I don't care anymore. Have a day.
Not sure how to word this. The game will be in a state of "imbalance" no matter what happens. Why? Because we have different types of mudders out there... I will illustrate with 2 examples:
1. The "work 60 hours a week, have a kid etc.." player doesn't have time to do all this leveling and zoning etc...and they will always post on this board ways to make things better (easier) for them. I am this type of player which a lot of you despise.
2. The other type is the hardcore, "I have no Job or I can mud at work, or I'm a student skipping all my classes and can play 24/7" who is going to rise to power quickly because they have all this time to play.
And of course there are others that can be any mix of schedule and attitude.
Now that this BBS is up and people are posting their every whim, and the admins are listening more than ever before...well who the hell are they going to listen to?
It's obvious to me that Miax is going for the ultimate game here, for the ultimate gamer, more of the type 2 person above. Personally, I think that's great...it's too bad that I no longer fit into category 2.
This isn't an emotional response, my suggestion is if you are going for this type of game, you better make things even harder because look at people already....how long has it been? I'm type 1 player and I'm level 43 already, with awesome eq...dont get me wrong I damn appreciate everything I have in the short time I've received it.
Personally, I don't think you will come to a point of balance, and people who don't fit into the niche of this game will just leave. It's when THAT happens the game will start to balance.
Wobb
1. The "work 60 hours a week, have a kid etc.." player doesn't have time to do all this leveling and zoning etc...and they will always post on this board ways to make things better (easier) for them. I am this type of player which a lot of you despise.
2. The other type is the hardcore, "I have no Job or I can mud at work, or I'm a student skipping all my classes and can play 24/7" who is going to rise to power quickly because they have all this time to play.
And of course there are others that can be any mix of schedule and attitude.
Now that this BBS is up and people are posting their every whim, and the admins are listening more than ever before...well who the hell are they going to listen to?
It's obvious to me that Miax is going for the ultimate game here, for the ultimate gamer, more of the type 2 person above. Personally, I think that's great...it's too bad that I no longer fit into category 2.
This isn't an emotional response, my suggestion is if you are going for this type of game, you better make things even harder because look at people already....how long has it been? I'm type 1 player and I'm level 43 already, with awesome eq...dont get me wrong I damn appreciate everything I have in the short time I've received it.
Personally, I don't think you will come to a point of balance, and people who don't fit into the niche of this game will just leave. It's when THAT happens the game will start to balance.
Wobb
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Wobb:
<B>This isn't an emotional response, my suggestion is if you are going for this type of game, you better make things even harder because look at people already....how long has it been? I'm type 1 player and I'm level 43 already, with awesome eq...dont get me wrong I damn appreciate everything I have in the short time I've received it.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well Wobb.. It's not that easy.
You can be a category 1, but still get lots of eq and levels, just because you are well-liked, respected and got a good reputation. (Like yourself).
/Jegzed
<B>This isn't an emotional response, my suggestion is if you are going for this type of game, you better make things even harder because look at people already....how long has it been? I'm type 1 player and I'm level 43 already, with awesome eq...dont get me wrong I damn appreciate everything I have in the short time I've received it.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well Wobb.. It's not that easy.
You can be a category 1, but still get lots of eq and levels, just because you are well-liked, respected and got a good reputation. (Like yourself).
/Jegzed
I would rather see zone power upgraded than to see my friends kicked out of a group because there was no longer any room for them. Thats the only real arguement I have against this. Other than 9 hells the only reason evils have taken in large groups was so that everyone could take part in what we were doing. I will be sorry to see that go, and it will be a dark day indeed when the sense of companionship and cooperation we have had in the past are replaced by competition and resentment.
The mud I played before Sojourn3, for nearly a year, instituted a group limit at the beginning of my time there, of 8 people. They did this as a point of balance, as a 15 person group easily rolled over the bigger 'zones' there. I am using this as a comparison of the attitudes and atmosphere that I see there, as opposed to those that I see on Sojourn.
Some of the things that came about due to limiting the group size there: zones took longer. Sometimes a lot longer. And often weren't even done. Before the limit, certain groups did up to 5 zones a day. After the limit, you were lucky to see 2-3 done for everyone on the mud. Some zones take up to 14 hours there. The average for a zone is about 3 hours.
The group structures around 4 classes: mage, tank, healer, enchanter. I play a bard there. For my first 6 months on the mud, I did not get a group. That's 6 months of not being allowed in groups because I was too weak to help, and couldn't get stronger because I couldn't get a group. At max, there are 2 groups going at a time, as these 2 groups take up all the 'needed' class slots. There are no 'extra' healers or enchanters, etc for the common person to just run around with.
Another thing that came about to this group size limit is the hording of eq, and a severe stagnation of the economy. -NO- high end equipment is sold for cash. Cash can be produced every day. There might be weeks with no zones done because the prime healer is on vacation and no one will group with the newbie.
Newbies are not helped at all. Period. There is a newbie help channel, newbies help other newbies, but no highbies will ever group with them. Everyone just sits around and waits for a group to form. And then everyone complains if they aren't one of the people allowed inside the limit. People play the classes they want, and that they think are fun, but every leader has his own vision of what use these classes are and lets them come or not depending on that vision.
Cliques are not the exception, but the rule. There are no groups that are not cliques. There's the midbie clique that hates all high level chars, several high level cliques, and then the newbies that don't group.
Now on to how this all ties in to Sojourn3. Zones will be done. People will always have fun. But this limitation on group sizes will limit that fun. I don't see this as being a real problem until later in the game. It isn't a problem now. Later, when things are more developed and there are more higher level characters, leaders will have to be choosy. They'll have to be cliquish. They won't want to bring more than 15, really..
Overall I agree with the decision to limit groups, but I also see one aspect I really liked about Soj3 (anyone is allowed whenever they ask) disappearing, and I will sorely miss it. I hate politics, shmoozing, etc. I'll have to deal with it again.
-Todrael
Some of the things that came about due to limiting the group size there: zones took longer. Sometimes a lot longer. And often weren't even done. Before the limit, certain groups did up to 5 zones a day. After the limit, you were lucky to see 2-3 done for everyone on the mud. Some zones take up to 14 hours there. The average for a zone is about 3 hours.
The group structures around 4 classes: mage, tank, healer, enchanter. I play a bard there. For my first 6 months on the mud, I did not get a group. That's 6 months of not being allowed in groups because I was too weak to help, and couldn't get stronger because I couldn't get a group. At max, there are 2 groups going at a time, as these 2 groups take up all the 'needed' class slots. There are no 'extra' healers or enchanters, etc for the common person to just run around with.
Another thing that came about to this group size limit is the hording of eq, and a severe stagnation of the economy. -NO- high end equipment is sold for cash. Cash can be produced every day. There might be weeks with no zones done because the prime healer is on vacation and no one will group with the newbie.
Newbies are not helped at all. Period. There is a newbie help channel, newbies help other newbies, but no highbies will ever group with them. Everyone just sits around and waits for a group to form. And then everyone complains if they aren't one of the people allowed inside the limit. People play the classes they want, and that they think are fun, but every leader has his own vision of what use these classes are and lets them come or not depending on that vision.
Cliques are not the exception, but the rule. There are no groups that are not cliques. There's the midbie clique that hates all high level chars, several high level cliques, and then the newbies that don't group.
Now on to how this all ties in to Sojourn3. Zones will be done. People will always have fun. But this limitation on group sizes will limit that fun. I don't see this as being a real problem until later in the game. It isn't a problem now. Later, when things are more developed and there are more higher level characters, leaders will have to be choosy. They'll have to be cliquish. They won't want to bring more than 15, really..
Overall I agree with the decision to limit groups, but I also see one aspect I really liked about Soj3 (anyone is allowed whenever they ask) disappearing, and I will sorely miss it. I hate politics, shmoozing, etc. I'll have to deal with it again.
-Todrael
15 people should be enough to do anything. The only problems I've run into so far are Thrym when we were spammed with unholy words, brass when we were too weak still, and planetar/deva when we had no globe or gheal.
The main problem is that people havent done the smaller zones but they already want to go for the big stuff. It's just not feasible to take on a level 45-50 zone with a bunch of 300 hp mages and level 40 hitters. Players need to do the easier zones first to be able to do a harder zone, and then after that zone they can move on to harder zones, etc etc.
Zrax: Why do you say that rogues, rangers, paladins, and conjurers are not going to be included in groups anymore? I agree with the necro and bard part, but we usually use those other classes.
1. Rogues do more melee damage than any other class in the game, plus they pick locks.
2. Rangers will be much better with archery in zones like CC, plus they will do the same amount of damage as a rogue.
3. Paladins can tank extremely well, and they are arguably the best tank in the game if they get an avenger. I dunno if you've seen mounted combat in action though cause evils dont have this class.
4. Conjurers are useful for exploring and for running past mobs.
[This message has been edited by Tanolm (edited 07-23-2001).]
The main problem is that people havent done the smaller zones but they already want to go for the big stuff. It's just not feasible to take on a level 45-50 zone with a bunch of 300 hp mages and level 40 hitters. Players need to do the easier zones first to be able to do a harder zone, and then after that zone they can move on to harder zones, etc etc.
Zrax: Why do you say that rogues, rangers, paladins, and conjurers are not going to be included in groups anymore? I agree with the necro and bard part, but we usually use those other classes.
1. Rogues do more melee damage than any other class in the game, plus they pick locks.
2. Rangers will be much better with archery in zones like CC, plus they will do the same amount of damage as a rogue.
3. Paladins can tank extremely well, and they are arguably the best tank in the game if they get an avenger. I dunno if you've seen mounted combat in action though cause evils dont have this class.
4. Conjurers are useful for exploring and for running past mobs.
[This message has been edited by Tanolm (edited 07-23-2001).]
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